New EU member state workers flock to Ireland

Raskolnikov

I was sceptical about the government policy to open up our labour force to the accession states but it looks like it's paying off now. Not only are we getting some highly motivated workers but it looks like they're contributing to the economy too (Unemployment seems to be holding at about 4%). Fair do's to the government this time, they've gotten things right. The inflexible labour markets in France and Germany (they've restricted workers from accession countries) seem to be keeping unemployment high at just under 10% for both.

New EU member state workers flock to Ireland
06/08/2004 - 08:43:25

The number of workers from the 10 new EU member states seeking jobs in Ireland has increased dramatically since the expansion of the union last May.

Reports today said Government figures showed almost 23,000 people from the new member states had sought employment in Ireland in the past three months.

This is believed to be 10 times the number of work permits issued to people from the same countries in the first four months of the year.

Most of the workers seeking jobs in recent months were from Poland, Lithuania, the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

arcadegame2004

I would be very concerned at this.

23,000 in the first 3 MONTHS!!!!!

EQUALS: 92,000 per annum.

This is far more than the 15,000 that are supposed to have come to the UK since enlargement.

I am still holding fire with regard to the question of whether Ireland needs to join the rest of the EU (except Britain) in imposing temporary restrictions on freedom of movement.

If too many come in, then they might compete with Irish workers for jobs and constitute cheap labour more attractive as employees that Irish workers. We don't want a race to the bottom in terms of wages.

Not to mention too much more competition for housing.

On thing's for sure: With that number of people coming in we should abolish the non-EU workers work-permits. It is clear that any vacancies caused by Irish labour-shortages will be more than compensated for by Eastern European labour.

dangerman

EQUALS: 92,000 per annum.

I would assume that the massive influx will slow down...as we all know this is a new thing, and there would have been people in the accession countries waiting for may 1st to jump ship.

I think it will be a few years before an average annual figure & rate can be shown.

I think its a good thing, it's been shown time and time again that we have a skills shortage here. I am a *tiny* bit concerned that over time job competition will increase, but I think it should be ok as long as our economic growth keeps up.

Raskolnikov

dangerman wrote:

I would assume that the massive influx will slow down...as we all know this is a new thing, and there would have been people in the accession countries waiting for may 1st to jump ship.

It will slow down, most of the people already have jobs before they even set foot in Ireland. Once we start filling up our vacancies, there'll be less jobs on offer and thus less people will be able come.

arcadegame2004

It will slow down, most of the people already have jobs before they even set foot in Ireland. Once we start filling up our vacancies, there'll be less jobs on offer and thus less people will be able come.

Less will be "able" to come? The rights of these people to come here are not merely based on availability of work. They are based on freedom of movement. they can come here regardless. That is the present legal position.

I am incredibly angry with 13 of our EU partners for landing us in it like this. We are being forced - partly by them but mostly by our own Government - to bear the MAJORITY of the burden of competition for jobs etc. because our Government refuses to introduce similar restrictions on immigration from the new member-states like the rest except Britain have done.

How do you know that the majority of those 24,000 people already had jobs here? Evidence please!

gandalf

Well they aren't going to get unemployment unless they have been here 2 years if memory serves me correctly. 24,000 more workers paying taxes is great news. Its not like we are handing out Welfare cheques to them when they get off the plane at Dublin Airport now is it!!

Where is your evidence Arcade that the majority of those aren't in jobs, arcade?

dubhthach

The fact that we got a unemployment rate of only 4% should be of more interest then the number of people coming here, remember the bad old days of 20% unemployment, i've no problem with people coming here to work after all as gandalf said it's more tax payers if anything.

arcadegame2004

Where is your evidence Arcade that the majority of those aren't in jobs, arcade?

Well in today's front-page report on this by the Irish Times, there is a great sense that most of these people have come here since enlargement.

Example: PPS numbers. The number of Eastern European EU citizens applying for PPS numbers has shot up dramatically each month since enlargement. That would seem strongly to indicate that they were not here before enlargement.

I accept the need for some migrant workers. But we need to be careful to get the balance right. We need to ensure that it doesn't result in Irish wages being cut sharply due to competition from poor Eastern Europeans.

Most importantly of all, we must ensure that Irish people remain the majority in their own country. Our identity is far more important even than economic considerations.

Also, I urge the EU Commission to institute legal-proceedings against thr 13 EU states that are discriminating against the 10 new EU member-states by denying them freedom of entry.

BTW If the remainder of the EU removes their restrictions (that are supposed to be scrapped by 2009-11 anyway) then I will accept us allowing freedom of entry.

alleepally

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well in today's front-page report on this by the Irish Times, there is a great sense that most of these people have come here since enlargement.

Example: PPS numbers. The number of Eastern European EU citizens applying for PPS numbers has shot up dramatically each month since enlargement. That would seem strongly to indicate that they were not here before enlargement.

I accept the need for some migrant workers. But we need to be careful to get the balance right. We need to ensure that it doesn't result in Irish wages being cut sharply due to competition from poor Eastern Europeans.

Most importantly of all, we must ensure that Irish people remain the majority in their own country. Our identity is far more important even than economic considerations.

Also, I urge the EU Commission to institute legal-proceedings against thr 13 EU states that are discriminating against the 10 new EU member-states by denying them freedom of entry.

BTW If the remainder of the EU removes their restrictions (that are supposed to be scrapped by 2009-11 anyway) then I will accept us allowing freedom of entry.

Stop blathering on here then and go to Brussels with a placard and urge the EU commission to institute the legal proceedings. Such right wing clap trap makes me sick.

Hobbes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Less will be "able" to come? The rights of these people to come here are not merely based on availability of work. They are based on freedom of movement. they can come here regardless. That is the present legal position.

newsflash you can move too if you want. Also I have heard a lot of Irish people buying up houses in some of the new member states as they are expected to skyrocket like they have here in Ireland.

arcadegame2004

Many of the Eastern European members of the EU have brought in restrictions on Western Europeans buying up land due to a fear of huge land-inflation. So there is limited scope to what you are talking about Hobbes.

Such right wing clap trap makes me sick.

Not right-wing. Many ordinary Labour Party members disagree with the party's liberal stance on immigration-issues. Indeed, an exit-poll in the citizenship-referendum found that 68% of their supporters voted "Yes", as did the supporters of Sinn Fein. Was this support "left-wing clap-trap"?

The exit-poll also showed very clearly that Irish people are determined that immigration into Ireland must be strictly controlled. I will wait and see what happens in the long-run but we must protect our identity against the leftwing ideology that spawned the rise of the far-right elsewhere in Europe.

chill

Hobbes wrote:

newsflash you can move too if you want. Also I have heard a lot of Irish people buying up houses in some of the new member states as they are expected to skyrocket like they have here in Ireland.

Exactly......... and how come those who are quickest to complain about a few thousand of our European neighbours coming to work are always the slowest to remember the MILLIONS we sent to the UK in the 20th Century both to work and to live on the dole...?

Our unemployment rate is effectively almost zero. Anyone who wants to work can work. We need these people to keep our economy growing so that our taxes can stay low and our jobs can be as high paying as they are.

The vast majority of these good poeple are working in low pay jobs that Irish people won't work in anymore beside.

Tuars

When I first read your sig...

arcadegame2004 wrote:

"The monopolists, by keeping the market constantly understocked, by never fully supplying the effectual demand, sell their commodities much above the natural price."
Adam Smith, famous economist (1723-1790)

...I took it that you were against monopolies and market protectionist economic policies. Then I read this...

arcadegame2004 wrote:

If too many come in, then they might compete with Irish workers for jobs and constitute cheap labour more attractive as employees than Irish workers.

...and it all became clear. You're not against the monopolists at all, are you. At least not on principle, anyway .

ionapaul

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Not right-wing. Many ordinary Labour Party members disagree with the party's liberal stance on immigration-issues. Indeed, an exit-poll in the citizenship-referendum found that 68% of their supporters voted "Yes", as did the supporters of Sinn Fein. Was this support "left-wing clap-trap"?

The exit-poll also showed very clearly that Irish people are determined that immigration into Ireland must be strictly controlled. I will wait and see what happens in the long-run but we must protect our identity against the leftwing ideology that spawned the rise of the far-right elsewhere in Europe.

Sinn Fein is not a "left-wing" party. They are masquerading (badly, as the huge majority of the electorate see through them) as socialists. Get the Brits out (without this core belief they are nothing) =/= socialist. Anyway...

The reason the vast majority in Ireland voted 'yes' in the election is that a substantial number of the yes voters voted to 'get the nigs out', as I heard dozens of times in the run up to the vote. Say what you will, we all know this was the reason for the overwhelming majority. Before anyone asks me, no, I do not have any proof of this!

We must protect our identity against the leftwing ideology that spawned the rise of the far-right elsewhere in Europe? Break that one down for us. We can't let the left-wingers drive the right-wingers into power by encouraging immigration?!! Damn you socialists for making the people vote for the nationalist fascists, damn you to hell!

How exactly will the immigration of Eastern Europeans damage my identity? I will remain who I am no matter who arrives in Ireland willing to work hard. Ireland has seen many waves of inward migration from pre-historic times, the only ones a tiny minority of people seen to have a problem with is the Scottish planters moving to Ulster 300 years ago (get out you Brits!), and the blacks, asians, and Eastern Europeans in recent years.

chewy

could you consider that alot of those people were already here and simply applied for work permits

Cork

I was talking to a group from Poland about a month ago. One guy was working 3 jobs.

He was a very qualified graduate. He was working 3 mimimum wage jobs. He was very happy to do so.

He missed home & wished the EU would bring the same benefits to Poland as it has done for Ireland.

The group had no interest in the Irish social welfare system. They come over here to work and not to sponge off the state.

some of the group I met are even setting up a business. They are both highly educated and inovative.

arcadegame2004

I never said that I am opposed to immigration from the new EU member-states. Nor have I said that it is certain restrictions will be needed. But if the trend continues at the rate of 92,000 per annum in the longterm, then the Irish people could be outnumbered in our own country. The exit-poll in the June 11th referendum made the Irish people's opposition to being outnumbered very clear. That does not make us racist. Shortly before the Citizenship referendumI was speaking to a Romanian recently who had been here on a work-permit before going home. To my surprise, he told me that he agreed with the referendum, adding that he would be very unhappy if Romanians became a minority in their country.

Raskolnikov

ionapaul wrote:

Sinn Fein is not a "left-wing" party. They are masquerading (badly, as the huge majority of the electorate see through them) as socialists. Get the Brits out (without this core belief they are nothing) =/= socialist. Anyway...

Sinn Féin motto, 'Building an Ireland of equals'

Socialism definition,
So´cial`ism
n. 1. A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.

National socialism never called for the equal distribution of wealth so please stop trying to drag the Nazi's into this.

ionapaul

Raskolnikov wrote:

Sinn Féin motto, 'Building an Ireland of equals'

Socialism definition,
So´cial`ism
n. 1. A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.

National socialism never called for the equal distribution of wealth so please stop trying to drag the Nazi's into this.

Socialism is not a sectarian movement, unlike Sinn Fein. It is an international one with little regard for national boundaries.

National socialism called for the removal of certain elements of society (Get the Jews out or Get the Brits out) by any means necessary. National socialism (and facism in general) repudiated pacifism (the Armalite and the Ballot Box, anyone?).

Sinn Fein are not socialist by action or by intent. You know this, I know this, most educated commenters know this. The closest they come to socialism is Stalinism! If they got rid of the private army (the national socialists had one of these too) and the 'Get the Brits out' mentality maybe their claim to socialism would ring a little less hollow.

Sorry for once again attacking Sinn Fein - I know that this is a thread-jacking offence.

Anyway, I welcome the immigration from Eastern Europe and beyond - we have a country that will greatly benefit from new cultures and perspectives. I have crossed (and will again) national boundries for educational and economic reasons, and I admire and greatly respect those who chose to do so, as so doing they are often bettering themselves. If we can't deal with the competition so be it.

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

But if the trend continues at the rate of 92,000 per annum in the longterm, then the Irish people could be outnumbered in our own country.

Well, anything that helps drown out your bleating is a welcome development. Every now and then you let the mask slip and reveal your Ireland for the Irish nonsense.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The exit-poll in the June 11th referendum made the Irish people's opposition to being outnumbered very clear.

Was that one of the questions asked? You've a remarkable ability to twist the words of others to suit your own argument.

Tommy Vercetti

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I never said that I am opposed to immigration from the new EU member-states. Nor have I said that it is certain restrictions will be needed. But if the trend continues at the rate of 92,000 per annum in the longterm, then the Irish people could be outnumbered in our own country. The exit-poll in the June 11th referendum made the Irish people's opposition to being outnumbered very clear. That does not make us racist. Shortly before the Citizenship referendumI was speaking to a Romanian recently who had been here on a work-permit before going home. To my surprise, he told me that he agreed with the referendum, adding that he would be very unhappy if Romanians became a minority in their country.

The "trend" won't continue, as you well know. You also know very well that we will never be outnumbered in our own country, that is a stupid, ridiculous thing to say.

dathi1

I own and run my own Electrical Contracting Company since 1989 and I've been involved in the construction industry since the mid 80's. I have never seen a situation as we have now where polish immigrant workers are now able to undercut Irish Skilled construction workers by up to 30%!!! In some cases where inspections are likely to be low, cash is being paid without prsi or tax contributions. Irish Construction labourers are the heart of the Irish Construction industry. They are multi skilled in Plastering, Cement + Concrete Mixing, Scaffolding, Plant + Machinery etc. Already I know of people up to their eyes with mortgages and kids at school over the past decade on countless projects, are now relegated to lower wages and or unemployment. I understand that most of the IT / Civil servant, guaranteed soft job brigade here will say so be it!! That's the market...but don't hold your breaths you're next 50,000 is what Harney's buddy's IBEC said...and that's her quota...any more than that and we're into let as many in as possible and force the average Irish worker into the begging for jobs scenario we had back in 1985.

sceptre

dathi1 wrote:

In some cases where inspections are likely to be low

Guess what my suggestion for that problem would be.

gandalf

daithi I'm not trying to be a smart arse but if you know the people doing this then shop them. I can guarantee this is going on because people in this country do not bother to report people breaking the law in this way. As Lou Reed would say "I'm sick of it" (or was that you! ).

The thing is that these Eastern European countries are where the major construction projects of the future funded by the EU will be happening. As usual Irish contractors will be over there getting some of that action as well.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

arcadegame2004

So the government should limit immigration to stop Irish people ripping the Government off?

Our right to be the majority in our own country is non-negotiable as far as I am concerned.

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Our right to be the majority in our own country is non-negotiable as far as I am concerned.

And that majority is not under threat, so stop scare-mongering.

spongebob

chewy wrote:

could you consider that alot of those people were already here and simply applied for work permits

Over half probably, lets see the numbers in the next quarter before we start worrying about the threat to Freedom and Democracy.

Anyway we will do whatever the UK does , as always. If they stop letting them in so will we.

M

arcadegame2004

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Our right to be the majority in our own country is non-negotiable as far as I am concerned.

Frankly I find that statement objectionable given the numbers in America and Britain that claim Irish ancestry.
Secondly tens of thousands of us went over to the U.S illegally for decades and many subsequently got green cards.
Not to mention the tens of thousands of us that regularally had to work in Britain because there was nothing but poverty here at home.
I don't see how you can claim to speak for everybody in relation to legal immigration from the new E.U countries.

You are speaking for yourself ( in a very borderline racist way in my view ) and probably others share your views but theres no evidence that , a majority of people want the new E.U immigrants to go home so you shouldn't be using the word "our" above.

ionapaul

dathi1 wrote:

I own and run my own Electrical Contracting Company since 1989 and I've been involved in the construction industry since the mid 80's. I have never seen a situation as we have now where polish immigrant workers are now able to undercut Irish Skilled construction workers by up to 30%!!! In some cases where inspections are likely to be low, cash is being paid without prsi or tax contributions. Irish Construction labourers are the heart of the Irish Construction industry. They are multi skilled in Plastering, Cement + Concrete Mixing, Scaffolding, Plant + Machinery etc. Already I know of people up to their eyes with mortgages and kids at school over the past decade on countless projects, are now relegated to lower wages and or unemployment. I understand that most of the IT / Civil servant, guaranteed soft job brigade here will say so be it!! That's the market...but don't hold your breaths you're next 50,000 is what Harney's buddy's IBEC said...and that's her quota...any more than that and we're into let as many in as possible and force the average Irish worker into the begging for jobs scenario we had back in 1985.

If the Polish workers drive down the wages of Irish construction workers - will the average house price come down in this country? If so, undercut away! The Irish contruction workers should thank their lucky stars they managed to have a few years making cash hand over fist for a 'blue collar' profession.

dathi1

Irish construction workers - will the average house price come down in this country?

wrong way around boyo! Its the construction companies and land rezone ownwers who make the massive profits on the housing industry. Do you really think that the extra profits made by big building firms on cheap Polish labour is going to be passed down to the guy buying the house??. In my experience with the building industry..not a hope.

So the government should limit immigration to stop Irish people ripping the Government off?

Irish people ripping the government off :eek: ...you make it sound like the average Irish construction worker is ripping off the Irish Government...which of course is complete bullcrap. Large Construction companies and IBEC (PDs) have a vested interest in making sure that there is a massive influx of cheap immigrant labour so that it can be an employers market. I have no problem with this to a point. we need to keep our competitiveness but I suspect that the 50,000 quota will be breached 3-4 times over before harney's mates in government express alarm.
Some people here have rightly expressed their views on illegal non EU immigration and EU exclusive immigration to Ireland and the UK. Some said we were scaremongering and that accession state immigration would be a trickle. The word Flood was NOT to be used. 28,000 so far is not a flood...its a torrent.

Frankly I find that statement objectionable given the numbers in America and Britain that claim Irish ancestry.

ok....so whats your quota....3-4 million went abroad...so lets see eh...3-4 million can come in....Jeeezus.

Meh

dathi1 wrote:

28,000 so far is not a flood...its a torrent.

It's 23,000, actually. And 23,000 is less than 0.6% of the population of this country. Hardly a "torrent" (or even a "flood").

rob1891

I'm over in Poland working for the Summer, to balance this immigration out a little bit

All of the students I've met here have friends who've travelled to Ireland & England for look for summer work. The time this "immigration" is measured over is probably the peak influx of workers for any year and now instead of Austrailians we have Poles. There are 1.5 million students here, this is the first good oppertunity they have had to earn Euros legally and take some home for the coming acedemic year so I imagine a lot of them have decided to get the plane/bus to Ireland/England (yes bus, it's about 24hours I am told!!).

Also the article is comparing the numbers with people who found jobs though work permits for a completely different time of year to those that came here looking for work in the past 3 months. It's amazing how much of a debate you can have on a shitty breakingnews article, there's no information content there that anyone could draw a conclusion from. I guess the papers will have something more detailed tomorrow ...

DadaKopf

We must protect our identity against the leftwing ideology that spawned the rise of the far-right elsewhere in Europe? Break that one down for us. We can't let the left-wingers drive the right-wingers into power by encouraging immigration?!! Damn you socialists for making the people vote for the nationalist fascists, damn you to hell!

What a funny argument. It is actually the case that the left-wing in many EU countries have been advocating protectionist labour policies in their own countries. The actors primarily responsible for a more deregulated labour market in Europe have been the right-wing neoliberals and the social democrat crypto-neoliberals.

It's hard to see how your argument makes sense in the Irish context since Ireland's left-wing is both weak and highly fractionalized.

Sinn Féin and the Socialist Party, the 'traditional' internationalist socialist parties are so marginal that they have near-to-no impact on government policy. The Green Party, while presenting some policies that criticise systemic features of the political economy, are moving closer to the centre to maximise votes. The only serious left-wing party in Ireland is the Labour Party; however, their policies more or less concentrate on inadvertantly advocating FF's, PD's and FG's policy prescriptions. Whily they do criticise the neo-liberal aspects of the government's policies,and attempt to find ways in which economic prosperity can be combined with social responsibility, ultimately, whatever radicals who do exist in the party, they're ultimately limited in what they can do by the suffocating constraints the global market places on Ireland.

The Labour Party, too, has advocated open-border policies; while their moral justification is focused on social equity, that equity may only be achieved through economic growth, which is exactly why they advocate a liberalized labour market - why prevent poorer Eastern Europeans from benefiting from our prosperity?

And it just so happens that the Labour Party's and Green Party's policies comfortably fit with the government's policy (and business' desire) of opening up labour markets to improve economic growth (profitability), although the government's position is "growth at nearly all costs" rather than growth with equity.

So your argument is just plain weird: how can you even justify this comment about the Left in Ireland if (1) the Irish Left is highly marginalized and fractionalized and therefore has little effect on policy and (2) the Labour Party is more or less advocating right-wing neoliberal policies, albeit with a socialist sheen?

If anyone will be responsible for the rise of 'right-wing fascist-type' parties, it'll be the right-wing neoliberal parties themselves who steer us to that point because they ignored issues of welfare, equality and accountability in favour of national competitiveness and growth, and political survival at all costs.

The Corinthian

Raskolnikov wrote:

Sinn Féin motto, 'Building an Ireland of equals'

And GWB’s 2000 election slogan was “Compassionate Conservative”. Obviously I missed something.

National socialism never called for the equal distribution of wealth so please stop trying to drag the Nazi's into this.

Actually, in many respects it did amongst it’s citizens. While it did not ban private ownership, it did maintain a substantial public and social service system, funded through both high taxation (and slave labour). Citizens were guaranteed a certain standard of living as a result - as long as they qualified as citizens.

Raskolnikov

I see the American Republican party and Sinn Féin being dragged into this debate. If you want to make a thread about Sinn Féin, the American Republican Party and their connections to the Nazi's then by all means do so. But this thread is about how the workers of the EU ascension states impact on Ireland.

Getting back to Arcadegame's comments, I feel they're utterly wrong. We have a temporary labour shortfall which looks like it's been filled by migrant workers from the aforementioned EU ascension states. I imagine that a significant proporation of these immigrant workers will decide to remain here. While I would have very slight worries about our nationality being subsumed by the migrant workers I feel that we can incorporate these people into our society, thus making them as Irish as the British, Normans or Vikings, who came here over time, it's been the way of things for millenia, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

The alternative to our open labour market is to go the way of Germany or France and stop migrant labour from coming to the country (May I remind you that unemployment rate there is holding fast at 10% compared to our 4%). We may be protecting our jobs in the short-term, but in the long-term we'd only serve to drive them away.

So I ask you, should we go the way of the majority of the EU and restrict our labour market or should we take the dynamic and capitalistic approach that has served us well and implement the open labour market?

chewy

"I have never seen a situation as we have now where polish immigrant workers are now able to undercut Irish Skilled construction workers by up to 30%"
is it the polish undercutting the irish or the irish construction emploeyres undercutting the irish..?

the health system is a mass not cos of immigrants and a few asylum seekers it because of the government corruption

theres not enoug hhousing in the country nad rprcies are too high... this is not because of immigrant workers or asylum seekers.. it is because of the government and corruption

do you not think it suits the employers in construction retail and services industries to use illegal workers to bring down then standards in workplaces for all.. whos fault is that not the immigrant workers but the employers.... backed byt the government and its corruption so lay off the polish etc

The Corinthian

Raskolnikov wrote:

I see the American Republican party and Sinn Féin being dragged into this debate. If you want to make a thread about Sinn Féin, the American Republican Party and their connections to the Nazi's then by all means do so. But this thread is about how the workers of the EU ascension states impact on Ireland.

Maybe you should have thought of that before you decided to add to the off-topic discussion. The American Republican party and Sinn Féin are not as much being dragged into the debate as meaningless slogans, in general, are being debunked and ridiculed.

Raskolnikov

The Corinthian wrote:

Maybe you should have thought of that before you decided to add to the off-topic discussion. The American Republican party and Sinn Féin are not as much being dragged into the debate as meaningless slogans, in general, are being debunked and ridiculed.

I added to the off-topic discussion because I felt in my reckoning it was wrong. I should have ignored it, at the time I felt passionate enough to make my opinions known about the matter.

If it makes you feel any better, then I retract that argument, afterall, this thread is about EU migrant workers. How about you let your feelings be know on the matter of migrant workers?

Also as an aside to chewy . .

Asylum seeker/refugee = a person (generally) not legally allowed to work in Ireland.
Migrant worker from EU = a (generally) person with a legal right to work here.

I include the generally in parentheses' because I'm sure there are always exceptions to the rule. The problem with your post was that you were using the two terms interchangeably when they are quite distinct.

One thing I do agree with you on is that a little competition for Irish workers will do no harm. Not only will it keep our workers on their toes, but we can also address any labour shortfalls when they occur.

dathi1

One thing I do agree with you on is that a little competition for Irish workers will do no harm. Not only will it keep our workers on their toes, but we can also address any labour shortfalls when they occur.

Ok that's a fair point if you believe in grasping the uncontrolled labour immigration, dog eat dog, cut throat economics that benefits IBEC and big business etc...but truthfully...what's your Job status and will you be affected by this policy? If you're an average worker in construction or the service industry or similar, I accept that you believe that you should also take a pay decrease or a p45 to compete with your immigrant rival?

Just a reminder..I don't have a problem with "controlled" skilled EU or other immigration (temp work visas etc) to fill job vacancies where the market needs it...I do have a problem with our exclusive uncontrolled immigration from accession states and non EU illegal immigration in general.

chill

dathi1 wrote:

I own and run my own Electrical Contracting Company since 1989 and I've been involved in the construction industry since the mid 80's. I have never seen a situation as we have now where polish immigrant workers are now able to undercut Irish Skilled construction workers by up to 30%!!!

Well thank God for the Polish workers then ! It seems that these irish guys have been overcharging for years ! and no wonder the cost of houses here are astronomic !

In some cases where inspections are likely to be low, cash is being paid without prsi or tax contributions.

That's been going on for decades and is stil going on. And it's a characteristic of Irish workers (though not solely Irish) both here and abroad.

Irish Construction labourers are the heart of the Irish Construction industry. They are multi skilled in Plastering, Cement + Concrete Mixing, Scaffolding, Plant + Machinery etc.

Nonsense. It doesn't matter where labourers comne from as long as they can do the job. If they come from Poland or Hungary and do a good job at less cost then the Irish guys need to get off their arses and work harder or cheaper. Irish workers have been doing exactly that for decades in the UK, Germany and Spain.

Already I know of people up to their eyes with mortgages and kids at school over the past decade on countless projects, are now relegated to lower wages and or unemployment.

If that is so then it is unfortunate. But they have made a killing over the last ten years so everything comes to an end.

I understand that most of the IT / Civil servant, guaranteed soft job brigade here will say so be it!! That's the market...but don't hold your breaths you're next

With your sense of business,.... maybe it YOU that's next. And it's the IT jobs in this country that have driven much our economic boom and provided many of the jobs for your leabourer colleagues.

50,000 is what Harney's buddy's IBEC said...and that's her quota...any more than that and we're into let as many in as possible and force the average Irish worker into the begging for jobs scenario we had back in 1985.

If Irish workers were 'begging' for jobs that is because they did nothing to create jobs by themselves and expected someone 'else' to do it for them, and our economic boom was generated using EU money and better government that irish entrepeneurs and multinationals took advantage of and created the jobs to offer to those beggars.
if our economy is to avoid sinking backwards then we need thousands of immigrant workers every year from now on to sustain it for our own economic wel being.

In_Diana_Jones

dathi1 wrote:

Already I know of people up to their eyes with mortgages and kids at school over the past decade on countless projects, are now relegated to lower wages and or unemployment. I understand that most of the IT / Civil servant, guaranteed soft job brigade here will say so be it!!

As a member of the soft-job brigade, I feel it is my duty to ask, why did these people not foresee the influx of cheap foreign labour and prepare themselves? If I was given so many years notice that my job may be under threat then I may look at my debt and use my time wisely to get myself into a position where I was indespensible to my employer, or go out on my own.

Obviously these people are builders etc for a reason.

mmmmmmmm Hammer.....hit stuff...duh!

In_Diana_Jones

Raskolnikov wrote:

Also as an aside to chewy . .

Asylum seeker/refugee = a person (generally) not legally allowed to work in Ireland.
Migrant worker from EU = a (generally) person with a legal right to work here.

I include the generally in parentheses' because I'm sure there are always exceptions to the rule. The problem with your post was that you were using the two terms interchangeably when they are quite distinct.

I don't think you should be allowed make a post like this if you think an asylum seeker and a refugee are the same thing. Go do some reading you ignoramus.

An asylum seeker cannot work in this country, correct.

However, a refugee is a processed asylum seeker who is perfectly entitled to live and work in this country.

Zombrex

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Our right to be the majority in our own country is non-negotiable as far as I am concerned.

What exactly happens if suddenly there are 4 million Polish people living in Ireland?

I am being serious, what exactly are you fearfull of? You think we are going to suddenly find ourselfs a provence of Poland.

How is your life effected at all by Polish workers coming, legally, to Ireland?

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Example: PPS numbers. The number of Eastern European EU citizens applying for PPS numbers has shot up dramatically each month since enlargement. That would seem strongly to indicate that they were not here before enlargement.

Utter poo. They were here all along, it's just they are legal now.

DadaKopf

Originally Posted by arcadegame2004
Example: PPS numbers. The number of Eastern European EU citizens applying for PPS numbers has shot up dramatically each month since enlargement. That would seem strongly to indicate that they were not here before enlargement.

Oh no! We're gonna run outta numbers!

gandalf

In_Diana_Jones wrote:

Go do some reading you ignoramus.
QUOTE]

You can get your point across without resorting to personal insults. You've been warned now. Do it again and I will ban you.

Flukey

Don't forget that us "Irish" are a mix of many races: Saxons, Celts, Normans, Vikings etc. etc. If a lot of those people hadn't come to Ireland we would not be here!

arcadegame2004

What exactly happens if suddenly there are 4 million Polish people living in Ireland?

The Irish people have made clear in the referendum-result (which you no doubt opposed) on citizenship, what their view is on this.

Have you seen "Blood of the Vikings" on BBC a few short years ago? It carried out DNA tests, looking for Celtic and Germanic (i.e. Anglo-Saxon and Viking) DNA in Ireland, Britain, and Normandy, with some surprising results.

In the DNA tests in Rush bear Dublin City, which was part of the Pale for centuries and the heart of British rule in Ireland for 800 years, which was generally seen as having as having been colonised greatly, almost NO non-Celtic DNA was found.

The same in Co.Mayo.

In the UK, Scotland surprisingly turned out to be mainly Anglo-Saxon/Danish Viking in its population's DNA map.

Not so surprisingly the majority of the Welsh have Celtic DNA, while 90% of Cornish people had too. Despite small traces of Celtic DNA is southern England, the genetic picture of the rest of England strongly implies that the former Celtic Briton majority there was exterminated by the Anglo-Saxon invaders.

Cromwell and the British-induced Famine ( a plot to wipe us out and don't try to deny it ) nearly wiped us out too. The state-planned plantation of hundreds of thousands of British settlers in Ulster led to the partition of our country, and centuries of violence and religious and political persecution.

Ireland has fought so hard for its identity for so long that we should apologise to no-one for wishing to maintain our ethnic-identity. To protect it does not imply hatred of others. Rather, it is to recognise the historic basis of the European nations, i.e. that each country is based on an ethnic-majority.

You only have to read a telephone book to notice how the vast majority of the surnames have Celtic origins. And many of those that seemingly don't are actually Anglicised versions of original Gaelic names, e.g. Collins was O'Coilean but British laws, especially passed under Charles II, banned the Gaelic form of many Irish surnames. We are basically a Celtic nation, admittedly with some intermixing. But persecution is what caused the assimilation and intermarriage of the Normans and the Irish. It is extremely unlikely we will be invaded again, yet we must protect our identity. Including our ethnic-identity.

Encouraging immigration for its own sake will only create an even worse housing-crisis that already exists. I empathise with those people struggling to pay mortgages that Daithi refers too. Despite having posted far fewer posts in support of our viewpoint in the Citizenship-referendum campaign debates on this forum, us two and some others were proven to represent the silent (and very large) majority on referendum-day, and we can take solace in that.

monument

Ireland has fought so hard for its identity for so long that we should apologise to no-one for wishing to maintain our ethnic-identity. To protect it does not imply hatred of others. Rather, it is to recognise the historic basis of the European nations, i.e. that each country is based on an ethnic-majority.

Is that a quote from BNP EIRE (SIC!)?

Because it sounds JUST like this...

Q: The politicians and the media call the BNP "racist"? Is this true?

A: No. "Racism" is when you ‘hate’ another ethnic group. We don't 'hate' black people, we don't 'hate' Asians, we don't oppose any ethnic group for what God made them, they have a right to their own identity as much as we do, all we want to do is to preserve the ethnic and cultural identity of the British people. We want the same human rights as everyone else, a right to a homeland, security, identity, democracy and freedom. We are not against immigrants as individuals. We are against a system which imports cheap labour regardless of the wishes of the host population. The British people were never asked if they wanted a multi-cultural society, immigration was forced on us undemocratically and against the clear wishes of the majority.

And leads to this...

Q: Why are you against mixed-raced relationships?

A: We are against mixed-raced relationships because we believe that all species and races of life on this planet are beautiful and must be preserved. When whites take partners from other ethnic groups, a white family line that stretches back into deep pre-history is destroyed. And, of course, the same is true of the non-white side. We want generations that spring from us to be the same as us, look like us, and be moved by the same things as us. We feel that to preserve the rich tapestry of mankind, we must preserve ethnic differences, not ‘mish-mash’ them together.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/faq.html


(I’m once again feeling physically sick after a visit to their site)

Flukey

A very simple task for any racist (though none of them ever admit to being so) that want people to be the same as them is this: Go out into the world and out of the over 6 billion people there, find just one single individual that is the exact same as themselves. Of course they will not be able to do it. As to our pure ethnicity, scientifically, every one of us is 99.9% the same genetically, so we are not all that different as some would like you to believe.