Big Server Issues (we need suggestions here please)

tHE vAGGABOND

My connections is normally grand. I am have a external 56 V90 modem and a TE line and I use IOL (cos the connections with everyone else are ****e) 9 games outa 10 I might lag once maybe twice but thats it. Now this isent a discussion about modems but....

Playing for me this weekend was like being in slow motion. It did not even lag woefully it just seemed that I was in slow mo. Exactly the same setting and progs as I usually use - gamespy to connect and then go ahead at 800*600

Barrys only have 1 server now, 1 other that comes in at midnight and another private one. For UKTL games they take down the public server (monday and tues nights)

Our 2 servers are full of non-irish players with silly pings. I dident care really b4 but Irish gamers cant connect to the irish games network anymore at peak times. Its not on. I realize its good for our game play and the name of IGN.

But out of character for me Im lost for suggestions as what to do?

We only have one tribe, players are improving big time, Brit and Jag were truely awsome at times over the weekend. But EM isent going anywhere fast till we get games going. There hopefully will be new players coming on stream soon with the release of the game, which also means we have to put up with fierce muppetry on the servers too. There were some real plonkers on at the weekend, even moreso than usuall .

To sum up this ramble I am ****ed of that BW does not seem to be pulling its weight in the tribes market servers market. What about all the other game servers sites too?

With quake 3 were gonna loose even more servers too

ChungKing

This doesn't directly address your post, but for some reason Barry's world C&H server doesn't show up on the UK master list (if you're using gamespy) but does on the US list. On the UK list there's just the CTF & private one, I think. Just worth knowing about that if you're on for a game of C&H - it being quite cool & not too laggy at all

Just this weekend I've had some horrendous lag. Before I would freeze for a few seconds - maybe 20 - once or twice in a 5 hour session. But this weekend I had the awful, freeze, move, freeze, move, freeze, move ACK! Lost the flag at least once due to this, and I'm sure I would have nailed Jaguar when he was running with our flag to his base (he might not agree, but you know I would have cat-boy

So, yep. It's purdy bad out dere.

btw- jaguar, if u read this - that was me on last nite; just wasn't talkative cos I was fed up & bored & would connect, play a bit, it would suck - disconnect (insert excuse), bored, reconnect, play a bit...arrg! Yucky evening yesterday - ended up playing a bit of delta force single player. crap crap crap graphics, but engrossing game play. Voxels - brrr shudder yuck. Thank god tribes came along to show the world it is possible to have an outdoor fps with good framerates (well not recently i admit!)

Suds

Well u are asking the query that all games players ask

How do people who play games which have no local servers feel ?

The same as you do i would guess..

Basically there is a system which suits most games, so games can be played using the lan settings, with no won authentication etc (benefiting some ppl), this system is kali.**

Tribes servers and most modern multiplayer servers (quake3 will be no exception) are VERY heavy on the machines... Need crazy cpu and ram.

While kali doesnt help everyone it is not heavy on the machine as it acts like an IPX spoofer.

There are 2 kali servers running in Ireland, kali.ie has one and Qamex have one.

Try it, it costs $20 to register and its always getting updated to support new games.

This is the existing solution to the game server issue. And has been around for a long time.. Will gamnes networks be able to dedicate a whole machine to 1 game server - i doubt it..

One other point tribes server really sucks according to those i talked to..
** Supported Games List http://www.kali.net/js/games/games.html

Brit

I couldn't agree more. Sunday was just terrible - I couldn't play at all - and when I looked at the player listing, what did I see? people with pings in excess of 900ms, and not just one of 'em either - but a goodly few. The game was so bad, I had to leave. Rebooting and reconnecting didn't help either.

I am one of those 'foreign' types who uses the IGN servers, and for that I apologise

However, I never normally have a ping above 200 (usually around the 130 mark) so I'm ok - i think. Its these igits with their 33.3k modems and 32MB RAM that are doing it all in.

I don't see a solution short of buying more servers, and to this end, I'm contacting the major ISP's this afternoon..

--Brit--

ChungKing

Is it true that everyone lags when a, say a 700+ HPB joins the game? I seem to remember this - isn't there a way to limit the joiners to a certain ping level - i mean not limit it to 100 ping (I would be excluded as I'm usually around 190-250), but to something reasonable. They can do this with quake servers cant they?

so do
(a) hpb's slow everyone else down,and
(b) short of kicking hpb's is there any way to limit them?

I have a lot of sympathy for hpb's - we've all suffered high ping at some point - but maybe it would encourage, say, US newbies logging in from Kansas City, to go download gamespy & sort themselves out instead of trashing our games. This is not an exagerration - before tribes I found IGN.ie when looking for half-life servers; best ping I ever had anywhere, any game, but nobody on it. Every so often, though, I'd log on and 'KCDave' or 'JimBobBillyBoy' would be on with 900+ pings. After a few requisite frags I'd tell them that this was an irish server & ask where they were from and promptly point them at gamespy....

any thoughts?

Dr_Teeth

I would be *VERY* surprised if that was the case. The neworking code in these games usually uses UDP, and basically lashes the packets out - if the clients get them, cool - if not, tough ****. The server certainly doesn't go around the clients in round-robin fashion, waiting for each to respond successfully before going on to the next. That would be very daft indeed.

Suds, peer to peer networks like Kali, etc are not a solution - you're just passing the server load onto a players computer (which is also doing the graphics processing), usually connected to some mank modem. Client/Server architecture's work, we just need more damn servers - especially ones not hosted by ISPs with awful internal networks. What happened to the server you were going to put up Suds? I invested a zip disk in that deal!

Teeth.

Suds

People with ISDn or college connects - hammer servers - ask barrsyworld who lags the machines...

If it was all 33.6 modems it would be heaven.. stability for all

tHE vAGGABOND

Could we do that teeth?

If there are punters on with 700/800+ pings can we kik them?

please!

ChungKing

well, being not a network guru myself, i dunno - just looking at chat boards on planet-tribes i've seen people suggest that one client can impact the game for the rest.

this was never suggested in quake, tho - the HPB & LPB servers were to keep the game even, not cos they were suggesting a high-ping or low-ping could affect other players' lag.

Dr_Teeth

On Quake/Quake2 servers, you could mess with your rate and cl_maxfps settings to increase the amount of traffic between you and the server. If you had a good link, this would result in smoother gameplay, if you had a bad link it would make the game unplayable.

In theory using settings which made the server send you more data would mean the server 'paid more attention to you' to the detriment of other players, but I've no idea how pronounced this behavior was, and I've no idea if the same issue happens with the various preset connection types in the Tribes settings.

It's a question for the dev people I suppose.

Teeth.

Shinji

I'm going to spend the evening hacking the Tribes server code... Suds is right, it's very badly written from what I can see, and waaaay too heavy on the servers. The Quake2 players are complaining bitterly that 32 Tribes players on yesterday ruined their clan games.... And we're complaining bitterly that we couldn't connect, because the server was too full. There are a few things that can be done here:

1) Tell Dynamix to write a better server... Preferably a Linux one! NT based servers have a tradition of being top-heavy...

2) Find some way of limiting the rate that data is being transmitted at (so the LPBs don't overload the system) and also of autokicking people whose pings are consistently over, say, 600. There's no point in their presence, and they lag everyone else out... I'm not sure why Teeth, but I have a suspicion that Tribes Server keeps hammering UDP packets at them until they respond, so someone with a high ping could be causing 3 times the server traffic of an average pinger.

3) Kill connections from the USA, Australia and the Far East on sight. Simple IP-limiting will do this.

4) Make server 2 constantly passworded, but give the password to the main Tribes that play on IGN... Say EM, KT, SS and DS for now, there are others as well. It makes it into a muppetless server... EM and SS should be able to reserve it for praccy. During Tribe matches or practice sessions, Server 1 should be shut down. To keep the Quake2 people happy (we're sharing a server with them ATM, although I dunno how long that will last) we could also shut down Server 1 during their clan games... Meaning that the Tribesmen can get onto Server 2, but the server load is halved by the absence of muppets.

Mata ne!
Rob

Dr_Teeth

You have access to a disturbingly large amount of source code. I want to be you.

As for shutting down servers etc - I dunno about this, sounds like a sure-fire way to make Slosh and Cloud's life a living hell!

Teeth.

Shinji

Poke in CS files. Poke about with a disassembler, and a nice network monitoring tool. Bugger about with debug tools and DLL call loggers. It tells you reams of stuff.


Shut down servers = put a password on them and don't tell anyone what it is. An empty server don't use up resources, in Tribes anyway, afaics...

Mata ne!
Rob

Hobbes

AFAIR Tribes has excellent packet sending. Basically you could be disconnected and not notice you were until 10-15 seconds later. In fact I recall watching the modem, and for periods it was quiet, where something like Quake would be churning out tons of packets.

As for the server side, I'm not too sure.

Brit

Well I took the first step tonite.

A guy called Riotman joined the game, and virtually instantly, everything slowed right down.

<Brit> Riotman, where you playing from?
<Riotman> Florida
<Brit> Riotman, you are causing the lag, you have a ping of 900. There are loads of US servers, please use one of them
<Riotman> Screw you
<Brit> Pardon?
<Riotman> Screw you
<Brit> Ritoman, you are causing the lag. Please use a US server. This server is in Ireland.

---nothing---

*Brit kicks Riotman*
*Riotman drops*

Everything speeds up, and everyone gets back on with the business in hand..

Problem solved.

--Brit--

Jade

Its a shame that thge two Irish servers are often full with foreign players sometimes. When you fancy a game and want to log on to your local server for a half decent ping only to get the message of saying the server is full.

Hopefully the TriberSpace server will help releave some of the presure on the IGN servers. The server will be made open to the public in mid May, and will have a 32 player limit, and a few extra mods, and maps.

Altho, it is an international server, we would take preference in looking after our local Tribes community.

I'm sure that once the game is released here that there will be alot more Irish players and in turn a few more servers to choose from.

Jade

tHE vAGGABOND

following brits example I also kicked a lama with a 750+ avg ping

Jade triber space sounds almost too good to be true ! (darn - If only I was allowed play there )

ChungKing

After these guys were kicked things definitely seemed better ...

but is there any way, server-side, to prevent access to HPB's assuming keeping them off does keep things smooth?

Kicking people cos they have bad ping is going to engender ill-feeling & is likely to expose us & IGN to bad mouthing, if not worse ...

no wot i meen?

tHE vAGGABOND

fuk em there all yanks and russians any way - anyone in Ireland has (I hope) a 500 or lower ping.

For me that is my cut off - if your ping is always over 500 then you should find a more local server, or stop playing games via a 9600 nokia data suite connection !

ButcherOfNog

funny enough the 900ms pingers are the problem, we had this with the q2 servers and to solve it we removed them from the master gamespy lists. the older quake folk will remember this. it solved alot of problems. don't know why it occurs but put a couple of really high pingers on a busy server and it does effect the other clients, happens in q2 and i've experienced it in tribes.

get the second server off the master list and START playing organized matches on it. get an EM sub(s) to observe and record demos to suss out the other tribes tactics etc.

clanless_Coyote

The obvious thing to do is to limit connections to European sources. In reality this will mean IRL and UK in the majority. An added bonus would be the auto-kicking of any High pingers, but that script would need some seriously sound logic behind it to ensure no 'mishaps' take place. A simple MOTD on the server outlining the constraints and restrictions would be a polit enough way of saying 'hands off' while still promoting the growth of the game locally.

Lets face it Teeth, the last thing you want to do is close off the best avenue for local irish talent to shine. As Irish Tribes and clans grow IGN could become a little mecca / proving ground if nutured correctely.

My 2p worth is as follows:-
1) Agree - Kick the HIGH PINGERS if possible
2) Agree - Limit connections to EUROs
3) Use MOTD to publish constraints
4) Upgrade servers anyway - It costs nothing.

If you really want to get a server that rocks, get the regular players to chip in a little dosh. A 'community' server, communally funded would not cost that much. Lets face it - most of us are in the business anyway, and could 'find' whatever is required.

Regards,

[clanless]Coyote
"Abandon All Hope!"

clanless_Coyote

Lets get some perspective here. Most of these servers are relatively cheap PII 333Mhz or better systems. We are not even talking about a monster dual ZEON Proliant 3000 or above here, simply a decently spec'd desktop.

These can be 'acquired' or built for less than 2K, with plenty of spare change. If we had such a server, co-funded between maybe 20 or 30 people, the cost is minimal, maybe the price of an expensive shiny new game (i.e. £40 or £50).

Think of the benefits. Christ there are an unlimited number of ways to finance such a thing. This new server could then be password protected and released to public only when we wish it to be.

Anyway - its just a thought. Maybe restricting access is enough on TRIBES1, assuming TRIBES2 could be booked / passworded for matches etc.

Whaddya think o gurus of the fibre optic?

Regards,

[clanless]Coyote
"Abandon All Hope!"

Dr_Teeth

That won't work. Think about it. You're going to an ISP and saying "We want you to host a server for us, which we will solely administer, and to which only we will have access. This server will gobble bandwidth and will be a potential security risk, oh and we want you to this for us for free".

Stop me if I'm wrong here, but DUH!

If you want to put money into something, then contact IGN. They already have a relationship with an ISP, and have a great track-record. Or contact Suds at IOL, or Jade and his Triberspace bunch, or Barrysworld. Going out and buying a box is one thing, getting it professionally administered and hosted is QUITE another.

Teeth.

ChungKing

Also legally there are probably issues.
Plus, it seems unlikely that IGN.ie would want a new PC with 'conditions' attached. If I was them I'd say:

well if you guys want to buy us a new PC, well cool, thanks a lot. Note that we will then OWN the PC and can subsequently do what we want with it

clanless_Coyote

In that case I move we;

1) Utilise the MOTD to adertise 'EURO' flavour
2) Kick high Pingers
3) Request BIGGER servers from IGN, since cost of upgrading is minimal too!

Surely IGN are aware (from stats) of the demand on their 2 x Tribes servers????????

Regards,

[clanless]Coyote
"Abandon All Hope!"

Suds

Down to Earth plz lads..

Lets keep this within the bounds of reality of costs and gaming.

Tribes is 1 game out of the many internet games which require servers.

Computers cost money, bandwidth costs money, admining them costs time , some money and lots of hassle. housing them in a server farm costs money, servicing them costs money, repairing them costs money, insurance, air conditioning, electricity, UPS, backups and so on ALL cost money

want more, better service from ISP's for gaming etc - then 3 currencies apply, cash, time(with expertise) and hardware - once given they are gone. and are in constant demand and need for more and more.


Within the small market ireland is ISP's will give so much, and thats it. IGN source from tinet a lot. They give a lot themselves. Qamex will do similar. Want to donate any of 3 currencies - cash - hardware or time, speaking for qamex - approach us, would guess IGN is approachable too.

But, in 6months how many more games will be out which require servers ? - there is only a limited amount of bandwidth and computers (whatever the limit is).

ChungKing

At the very least the Message of the Day warning players that

(a) this is an Irish or better yet, a european server
(b) high ping players may be kicked

should go up immediately. This should go a little way to reducing any bad feeling should players get kicked.

The 'communally' funded server sounds interesting, but I'd require a fair amount of detail regarding what I was buying into...

SS 01 Ripper

umm...first off...two tribes..there are two tribes in ireland =P
EM and SS

on to the server part.

I didn't read all the posts (lack of time, sorry), but..am I reading this correctly...a third server would not be possible (even when the game goes public here) or did i misunderstand/fail to read something there ?

OT: SS desperatly needs a private or semi-private server. now, i'm guessing EM wont have this problem to such an extent, but can anyone give me some advise on how to actually go about getting my own server (remembering that i am running a 56k , so me hosting it on a seperate machine wouldn't be a solution).

but back to the topic. i agree that ppl with high pings should get kicked off. there are plenty other servers (even european ones) that will take them..hehe..
us ppl should be playing on their own servers anyways, i mean..come on...get real yankies =P

but otherwise..fair points and i must agree with the outcome!


well..see ya on the servers...if we're lucky!

WhiteWashMan

i didnt read all of this post, but doesnt DNA have servers for most on line games.
i recall seeing one for tribes.
not that i am suggesting going there but its an option. i cant even log onto tribes.ign without getting a ping of about 300 and the lag is awful. all i get for 3 minutes out of 4 is phone jack. there are plenty of decent english servers that i play on where my ping is 160 and i get no lag at all.
mind you, this still doesnt fix the problem of tribes lagging q2 and vica versa.
i hope it gets fixed soon as i would love to
a)play a decent game of quake2 for once without ye lot laggin me
and
b)play tribes without them q2 bas7ards laggin me

WhiteWashMan

also....

im not aware of the 'political' standings of the various gaming organisations, quamex, ign etc, but it would be nice if all 'banded' together to create an irish barrysworld.
you know a BIG organisation that is professional not saying the lads here arent but yis dont get paid to do the games thing (i think, i may be wrong)
well, its a though.
an ideas thrown in at this moment are worth hearing or else im gonna have to continue playin english servers for both q2 and tribes to play get decent pings. of course, it could be revenge for 800 years

Suds

Barrysworld ? Ermm Dialup gaming - NO comment.

SS 01 Ripper

woah...this is really disturbing

i went on to ign.ie 2 last night (speak this morning 2am) cause i was bored and there was only one other person on it. a newbie from the US. His pings were equal to mine. a couple minutes later another fellow arrives with pings of 350 ...he was connecting from the states with a 33.6 modem. i think the choice of us kicking ppl with pings higher than 500 may stop the high ping connects from the us, but honestly, there could be some us guys amongst us that look like ...well..irish connects and better....they are everywhere...we just cant be certain anymore...bummer that there isnt a way to see where they are connecting from =(