What IS the cost of designing a (DW4+) site?

Seanie M

Hi all,

I know there have been different posts and various replies to these posts, all about what to charge for doing a website or a number of web pages. I would like to know, if there are any proper geeks in this forum who could properly answer this question.

As an example, I use DreamWeaver MX, and I have potentially 3 sites for potential 'customers', but I don't know what to charge. I have seen figures from €50 per hour to €500 per day.

Can any of you answer this, based on a site of, say, 15 pages, fixed frame top and left, done in Dreamweaver? The usual time consumption of manipulaing pictures, even taking them, and testing etc would be straight forward to guess at for those who do this sort of thing.

Thanks,

Seanie
(who is no expert in web design, but would like to make a little cash from the work he CAN do!)

silverside

I'm no expert but I reckon 1000-2000 euro would be a fair all-in price for doing the site and putting it up on the servers, together with a little bit of support.

Seth Brundle

what part of the other posts did you not understand?
This cannot be answered in the way you want as we don't know how good your skills are, what the client / you expect from the site, etc.

'manipulaing pictures' can range from cropping a photo to serious graphic design. Is it just HTML or is there any server side coding? The fact that you use DW is irrelevant really. The 3 sites - are they designed to suit all browsers? Frames?

Rates of €50ph or 500pd would be for those with excellent skills in developing sites. Are your skills this good? However, the final price of a site is not just €x per day. Based on this and assume you & I value ourselves @ €250per day. I might take half as long as you (or twice as long) to complete the site. This leads to a sharp difference in potential prices.

Sorry for sounding negative but I hope it kinda answers it

Seanie M

Originally posted by kbannon

Sorry for sounding negative but I hope it kinda answers it

Not at all kbannon, thats the kind of feedback I am looking for. No point looking for suggestions if one cannot accept criticism too!

Thanks too silverside.

I know that I didn't give an in depth description of my capabilities et all, but I purposefully don't want to so as not to appear I am fishing for work. Likewise, I am not going to put up the sites in question either.

Also, all the sites I have done seem to be compatible in all IE's, Mozilla Firebird (which I highly recommend-even though I know newer named versions are out), and Netscape. I will try them in Opera soon.

However, to get a rough idea of some stuff I HAVE done for myself, here are two sites you can judge for yourself.
www.tullamoreastronomy.com
www.seanie-m.com
But keep in mind if you want to have a look to add anything in this thread for me you guys, these sites are free - obviously, I have some extra features/techniques on the 3 probable customer sites I am working on.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

:cool:

Seanie.

pork99

One thing I'll tell you Seanie M, nothing says "amateur hour" quite like a background sound file on a website. Talking about your Tullamore Astronomy website here.

One which you cannot at least switch off is a bit inconsiderate to your users.

At least yours didn't take too long to load (I'm on 512k DSL though).

RicardoSmith

Not trying to rain on your parade dude but theres very little "design" or any real functionality on either of those sites. €50 ph and 500 a day are very professional rates. No offense but I wouldn't rate your sites at being close to that sort of level. If I was you I'd get a web or graphic design mag and see what styles (Web/print) are in fashion and try and get some of that style into your webpages. The fact that some one is paying you do some work is great. But you really need to work on your "design" and graphic skills.

jank

Ya need to do some more design in your sites i think.

those sites are pretty basic i think, however if your a capitalist then go for what you can get


by the way learn how to do sites in photshop

Its the next level you want to get to and you wont regret it

Seanie M

Thanks folks. I know they're not the best of sites, but I did say that I was keeping them basic in my last post! Of course, what I am working on to get a bit of money is a little more advanced. I will be including submission forms, special offer pop-ups on certain pages and things like that.

Thanks pork99 for the comment. I think I will remove that jingle at the start. It has been a bit annoying to me at times too, to be honest!

One thing I do have to do that you are all correct on is to enhance the 'designs' of those pages. But, saying that, they're not supposed to be terribly flashy anyway. They're small time, and get the job done. But I am looking round at other sites of a similar nature for ideas and perhaps a little inspiration!

And I'll have to explore Photoshop a bit more!

Cheers,

Seanie.

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by Seanie M
...pop-ups...

aaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

mneylon

I wasn't going to reply, but I could not resist.

http://www.seanie-m.com/ - basic spelling mistakes. No design whatsoever. It looks like something thrown together in about 30 seconds.

http://www.tullamoreastronomy.com/index.asp - very 1996. More spelling mistakes.

Have you heard of ALT tags?
Why is this image 50k? http://www.seanie-m.com/images/observatory.jpg
It's bad quality, yet it's huge.

I'd advise doing a bit of work on basic HTML and web design or just design in general.

Seanie M

Sorry blacknight, you'll have to point out these spelling mistakes you seem to find! PM me IF you want to!

JustHalf

I see a lot of people mention 500 euro a day. If anyone can get me work at anything from 250 a day upwards, I'll gladly give them a 20% cut.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by JustHalf
I see a lot of people mention 500 euro a day. If anyone can get me work at anything from 250 a day upwards, I'll gladly give them a 20% cut.

I'll second that!

Webmonkey

I'll offer 30% cut

clearz

This seems to be a topic that comes up a lot so I have a question. I recently did a small static website for a neighbour and was wondering could someone value it. The address is http://www.glendownhouse.com

bp_me

I personally wouldn't like to pay any more than about €200 for that site. It could be done with little more than an hours coding, and the server is painfully slow (I'm using iolbb).

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by bp_me
I personally wouldn't like to pay any more than about €200 for that site. It could be done with little more than an hours coding, and the server is painfully slow (I'm using iolbb).

Theres more to getting website done that a bit of coding. Theres all the clinet interaction, getting the content together, getting approval for your idea, getting it proof read and signed off by the client, doing a quote, raising an invoice getting paid, putting it through your accounts. Then theres the hosting costs, domain registration etc. Registering it with search engines etc.

I wouldn't do all that for €200. I'd say you'd need to charge 600ish for that site. I thought it was a nice little site. Though I wouldn't have done it the same, but thats just subjective taste. Loads fast enough on my 56k dialup @ 45kps.

bp_me

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Theres more to getting website done that a bit of coding. Theres all the clinet interaction, getting the content together, getting approval for your idea, getting it proof read and signed off by the client, doing a quote, raising an invoice getting paid, putting it through your accounts. Then theres the hosting costs, domain registration etc. Registering it with search engines etc.

I wouldn't do all that for €200. I'd say you'd need to charge 600ish for that site. I thought it was a nice little site. Though I wouldn't have done it the same, but thats just subjective taste. Loads fast enough on my 56k dialup @ 45kps.

I wasn't talking about the hosting costs, etc when I mentioned that price.

maxheadroom

Originally posted by clearz
This seems to be a topic that comes up a lot so I have a question. I recently did a small static website for a neighbour and was wondering could someone value it. The address is http://www.glendownhouse.com

The HTML doesn't validate (linky ). The site is painfully slow to load. and there's wayyy to much information presented on the front page.

You're using popups on the rooms page. Why?

Also, as a niggle, neither of the twin rooms seem to be twin rooms

From http://www.irish-hotel-guide.com/glossary.htm
Twin Room

A twin room is also designed to accommodate two people only. The room contains two single beds. (approx. 3 x 6' 3 or 1m x 1.9m)

RicardoSmith

Whats the big deal about popups for images?

The twin room has two beds in it. What more do you want. Smaller beds?

maxheadroom

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Whats the big deal about popups for images?

The twin room has two beds in it. What more do you want. Smaller beds?

Well, they're blocked by my browser for one

Also, I only see one bed in those photos. a big bed, but just one. Like I said, its just a niggle, maybe its just a bad set of photos (to me it looks like 2 rooms, each with a big bed, or two slightly different pics of the same bed).

Seanie M

Wow! this thread has been a bit busy since I left it!

Thats a pretty nice site for that hotel clearz. AndRicardo, you are putting it into perspective too. I would have to consider the 'evaluation' period I suppose - getting photos, travel time to client, testing etc etc.
Even though some others who commentd on my 'lack of design' on my personal sites, they're not reflecting what is going to happen on the ones I am building for the dosh.

But, from all the replies here, it seems that a bit of money can be made if what I can offer is what a client wants i.e. is within my capabilities. I'm no expert, but I'm learning all the time!

Seanie.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by maxheadroom
Well, they're blocked by my browser for one

Also, I only see one bed in those photos. a big bed, but just one. Like I said, its just a niggle, maybe its just a bad set of photos (to me it looks like 2 rooms, each with a big bed, or two slightly different pics of the same bed).

I could have sworn than there was a second bed in the bottom right of the photo earlier. Isn't one there now. Theres only one link to a twin room that I can see. Theres two for a double room though.

All popups? I'm only filtering some of them myself.

Originally posted by Seanie M
....Even though some others who commentd on my 'lack of design' on my personal sites, they're not reflecting what is going to happen on the ones I am building for the dosh....

The personal sites say more than enough. If you had even a basic understanding of layout, typography, graphic design, you'd wouldn't have a personal site like either of those. You also wouldn't have asked for an opinion on them

mneylon

Originally posted by Seanie M
Sorry blacknight, you'll have to point out these spelling mistakes you seem to find! PM me IF you want to!

No thanks.

If you can't fix them I'm not going to do it for you unless you pay me to do it

clearz

My God havent we got alot of critics. First of all I aint a professional and once I am finnished college I have no interest in persuing a career in web development (Too many people at it) I simply asked the question of valuing a small website.

I personally wouldn't like to pay any more than about €200 for that site. It could be done with little more than an hours coding, and the server is painfully slow (I'm using iolbb).

An hour to complete if you magically had all the photos and graphics on hand and had an intimate knowlege of glendown house and Cavan which I certainly hadn't before I started.

Good points about the popups not appearing because of popup blockers ect

Dun

Originally posted by clearz
http://www.glendownhouse.com

Seanie M threw down the gauntlet, and I picked it up: unfortunately it was the wrong one! So here's your spell-check clearz.

No, I don't have lots of time; yes, I am a stickler for grammar (you can thank God I didn't start adding commas :eek: )

maxheadroom

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
All popups? I'm only filtering some of them myself.

Just the default settings for firefox (0.9.2), and its blocking those popups unless I whitelist the site.

cleareyed

I checked out the websites in this post and they scream "amateur". Glendown is ok for its market but I wouldn't pay anyone to these sites for me. Any pc literate person who can find their way around google could do at least as well. You did ask!

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by cleareyed
I checked out the websites in this post and they scream "amateur". Glendown is ok for its market but I wouldn't pay anyone to these sites for me. Any pc literate person who can find their way around google could do at least as well. You did ask!

You have a very limited view of the business side of things. A business person would say why spend a couple of hours doing this myself when a web designers time is cheaper than my own, and I've more important things to be doing. Theres a lot more people who use google than build websites. So obviously theres something holding them back. Also lots of Irish business'es, big and small don't want to pay big money for a website until they see some evidence that its earning its keep. They are happy to get a basic presence on the web, and take it for there.

cleareyed

A business person would say why spend a couple of hours doing this myself when a web designers time is cheaper than my own,

A Sunday afternoon. (Pick appropriate downtime) Website done at least as well as these. 500 euro for me rahter than amateur. How bad is that.

I think your comments apply to businesses that need a web presence of some stature.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by cleareyed
A Sunday afternoon. (Pick appropriate downtime) Website done at least as well as these. 500 euro for me rahter than amateur. How bad is that.

I think your comments apply to businesses that need a web presence of some stature.

At wesite at this level, they are going to want to pay the minimun they can. So your 500 will be in competition with anyone who can do an amateur site for 100-200 or even for free. In my experience most websites built at this level are done by people can't tell the difference betweena good site and a bad one or are not willing to pay the difference.

I used to work for a small local web development company and I'd say 3 outta 4 jobs were for 500 or less. In fact around 500 was our minimum as any less than that and it wouldn't cover the costs of the IIS hosting and labour. Labour is not just the cost of building the site. Its any time spent on a project that could be spent on another. That includes meetings and things like that. The reason some jobs got done at under 500, was that the owner reckoned doing it for less would mean repeat business. Most of the time it didn't and I don't think its a business plan that holds any water.

clearz

cleareyed, how if I were to tell you that your comments seem as amature as the sites listed in this thread. Yes I am an amature (done 4 sites) but I have learned alot about dealing with people when it comes to computers. About 90% of small business owners bearly know how to switch on a computer let alone spend a couple of hours on google learning HTML javascript ect.

As for your comment on doing it on a Sunday afternoon. Yea if you had all the photos and info on hand. That doesn't happen by magic. You have to talk with the persons involved. Discuss what direction they want the site to go and take the photos. This all takes time.

I charged 500 + hosting fees for glendown and believe I earned every penny of it and if you have a problem with that BITE ME.:p

jank

Seems to me that there is a lot of begrudery out there when ot come to costs of doing a website, especially from fellow web desingers.

Its one thing being critical but another to be just a pain in the ass cause "I can do better for cheaper":rolleyes:

There are still a lot of computer illiterate people out there and to them making even a basic website seems like rocket science!

However we have to take everyting into context ie how much do plumbers, carpenters, mechanics for foxers that seem simple to them but complicated for us.......!?

I find it amazing that we keep selling ourselevs short when it comes to doing jobs like this. If you charge too much and do a crap job then thats your problem not mine and I have no intention of of begrudeing anybody $$$$$$ because of that, the lack of quality may bite you back in time but as I said thats your busines

PS not directed at anybody on this thread, just a general observation

RicardoSmith

Thats a good point.

I think the problem is that most people think doing it cheaper is better, and will give them a sales advantage which in return will lead to more sales, which then allow them to charge more. So some people do it as a loss leader.

Whereas in fact doing it cheaper mean that the clients will expect it done that cheap all the time. As theres always a lots of people who will undercut you or do it for free, and everyone always knows someone, a relative or a friend who can do throw a few pages together.

Whereas doing it as a business you have to charge more but then you have to provide a professional service. Some clients prefer to pay more, and ensure they get a professional service. Some will pay more because they like dealing with you and they like your designs and how you manage the project.

Horses for courses I guess.

p

Originally posted by jank
Seems to me that there is a lot of begrudery out there when ot come to costs of doing a website, especially from fellow web desingers.

I think if there's any begrudgery it's because there's far too many cowboys out there selling web design services and just plain ripping off their clients.

Too many people learn a bit of HTML & dreamweaver and thinks that makes them web designers.

It's like thinking if youknow how to use a paintbrush you're an artist. Knowing tools does not make you a good craftsmen.

Webmonkey

I agree

jank

It's like thinking if youknow how to use a paintbrush you're an artist. Knowing tools does not make you a good craftsmen

That can be said about EVERY profession

How many cowboy builders are out there and to be honest if somebody picks one of these cowboys then its their own fault to be honest

p

Originally posted by jank
That can be said about EVERY profession

Some yes, others no.

Many professions require qualifications, and a large investment.

The problem exists because there's such a low barrier to entry for webwork, and because of the general lack of awareness of good design.

I agree that at the end of the day it's the clients responsibility, but that doesn't solve the problem.

I guess I'm just shocked there's so many con artists out there.

RicardoSmith

Its a problem with all graphic disciplines if you ask me.

Capt'n Midnight

"there's always room at the top"
If you are very good or working for a reputable company you can charge the higher rates. As an independent all you customers have to go on is your previous work.
As you gain experiance you can produce better work faster. If you are only learning it will take a lot longer to produce the same quantity of work and you might not even get to the same level.

One option would be to charge a volume based price - ie. say x amount per page on the basis that the customer is not being charged for the time it takes for you to learn. Also you can tell the customer that if it takes longer the you take the hit but if it takes less time then they get their site developed sooner.

hostyle

Originally posted by JustHalf
I see a lot of people mention 500 euro a day. If anyone can get me work at anything from 250 a day upwards, I'll gladly give them a 20% cut.

I've done a few websites recently for < €200 a day. They did usually take me a less than a day each. Every thread I see here about "what I should charge" lead to rip-off prices being touted. What is your time worth? What do you need to pay your bills? If you're employed by a company you have much higher overhead; if you're a freelancer, keep the price low and you'll have much more customer referrals.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by hostyle
I've done a few websites recently for < €200 a day. They did usually take me a less than a day each. Every thread I see here about "what I should charge" lead to rip-off prices being touted. What is your time worth? What do you need to pay your bills? If you're employed by a company you have much higher overhead; if you're a freelancer, keep the price low and you'll have much more customer referrals.

Why worry about another companies expenses? What you're doing is keeping your income low. You charge what the market will stand. The bigger the profit the better. I mean you are doing it to make a profit yeah? Not just to cover any costs. Only contractors charge by the day. A freelancer or even a company would charge for completion of the project, or on bigger projects, completion of project milestones.

hostyle

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Why worry about another companies expenses? What you're doing is keeping your income low. You charge what the market will stand. The bigger the profit the better. I mean you are doing it to make a profit yeah? Not just to cover any costs. Only contractors charge by the day. A freelancer or even a company would charge for completion of the project, or on bigger projects, completion of project milestones.

Ehm, its been a few years since I worked for a web-design company per-se (been in web application development for a time), but the main one I worked for went out of business for the simple reason they charged what they thought they could get away with rather than what the project should realistically cost (plus profit margin). They ripped people off left, right and centre - so while the clients had a nicely designed, well programmed, functional websites: they weren't too happy in the end with the price they paid. We got no new work via referrals from anyone. In retropect, I know for a fact that teh company went down the drain because of this. Fleecing your clients is not a good way to do business. Therefore I always decide how much time a project will take and charge accordingly, but I charge per day because most jobs only take a day or two, and some only take hours. They're small enough jobs yes, but some were as big as smaller projects at the company I mention above who would charge 2 - 3 grand for a two day job (the client wouldn't know it was done this quickly and wouldn;t be told either), whereas I charge 2 - 4 hundred for the same. I;m happy, the client is happy and I'm not broke.

Having said all that I'm only doing these small jobs while I'm seeking employment. I suck at marketting, but do get referrals from happy clients.

RicardoSmith

Fleeching and ripping off your clients is not charging what the market will stand is it.

Seanie M

So, there is still division among the masses as to what to charge. Although some people have strayed to what I hoped was an open and close string, I have seen some insight into my small plight.

For those of you geniuses out there who say you can do a site like some of those mentioned in this string in a small amount of time, good for you. You're a big shot, full of hot air, and not making any money out of it. Kudos.

Then, some of us are trying, like me, and wanted to get feedback on them.

Dun, the Glendown House sight is pretty good. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. Some of those schmucks criticising your work while not having anything of theirs published, either don't have a clue, are jealous, or are very hypocritical. Keep up the good work.

As for the criticsm on my 2 posted sites. Thanks for the feedback. Though I don't see how it was constructive per say, only that font is not great or that background sound screams amateurish. I did say that they were for fun, and in no way reflect the content that was going into the 2 potential customer sites I am working on. So, in a way, some of the feedback was useless. But noted none-the-less.

I have worked out myself what to quote the customers in question. They are pleased with the numbers, and the work that I have put in. And, I will soon have a fat wad of notes in my backpocket.

Needless to say, I think Dreamweaver (in its latest form) does work very well, if you can get to know and use most of the functions it has to offer. Use the Tutorial and Index to help you along the way - you don't need to spend a couple hundred on a course etc.

Thats my feedback!

Thanks,

Seanie.

RicardoSmith

I've spent the morning trying to make edits to a dreamweaver (dunno the version) site and I have to say it produces the most dire HTML you can imagine. On a page that require no more than about 5 tables (not that you should be using tables) it has created about 25 and there are spacers and empty cells and blank gifs all over the place. Half of the HTML tags, aren't closed and theres no way from looking at the code where anything is. The designer has used the same page as a template so the came carp is on every page. Its horrendous stuff.

Seanie M - whats the point in asking for people opinion then being critical of the critisim that you asked for! Theres no point going on about sites that you haven't linked to. Its like the emperors new clothes. Theres a world of a difference between the http://www.glendownhouse.com site and the ones you posted. End of story. As for pricing theres a big difference in what an amateur, freelancer, or a web designer company should charge for their work. Even if amny clients can't appreciate the difference. Thats their loss.

But if you happy going what you are doing and can make some money, even a living from it. Then thats great. I hope that you continue to work on your skillset and learn to accept all forms of critisim as good experience.

hostyle

Originally posted by Seanie M
For those of you geniuses out there who say you can do a site like some of those mentioned in this string in a small amount of time, good for you. You're a big shot, full of hot air, and not making any money out of it. Kudos.

I like that. Flame the professionals - maybe they'll go away. In the end this is all just differences of opinion from people who are involved in the industry. As long as both you and your customers are happy, so am I.

Batbat

yuck, well i supose could be worse via frontpage or something, but im not a big fan of dreamweaver either, I would not pay those rates for that site, does everything have to be justified left or right?

maxheadroom

The new version of Dreamweaver can be very handy if you already know how to code a page well by hand. In that situation it helps you cut down your development time, allows you to use features like nested templates and template properties, has nice syntax highlighting in source view, etc.

If you just use the wysiwyg part, you'll end up with tag soup.