Norn Ire - Why Not Let 'em At Each Other?

bertiebowl

Well I was watching the news last night as the poor British Army and PSNI workers were brutally attacked by two gangs of white trailer trash (aka loyalists & republicans).

Then a thought hit me - wouldn't it be better entertainment if we let the two mobs attack each other? And maybe if they get all that anger out of their system they might realise that they actually have to get on with each other (eventually).

Also lets face it - its a massive waste of tax payers money having all that army and police force refeeing the two sides.

Finally maybe the two mobs would eventually cop that the rest of the world really thinks they are a laughing stock.

spongebob

Letting them at each other did not work in 1969 when it ws last tried....although the police joined in with the loyalists that time.

We should give them free tickets to Celtic Rangers matches and then let them at each other over there. Declare a No Go zone for security forces in Govan and herd in the Norn mob to finish the biz.

M

Villain

I don't think that would solve anything, I think Gerry Kelly and other Nationlist politicans were very brave last night in preventing the young mob from getting to the loyalist area, it shows us that the SDLP and SF really do want peace.

ionapaul

'Give them grape and plenty of it'

Peter C

I suppose Gerry Kelly will be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize now!

Villain

Originally posted by Peter C
I suppose Gerry Kelly will be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize now!

LOL, I was simply pointing out that he helped stop what could have been a very violent incident, credit where its due.

Peter C

From what was said on the radio this morning and also the picture on the front of the Irish Times, these thugs did not listen to Gerry Kelly.

magick

it would make great Tv think of the Ratings! Put a bunch of hardcore Republicans and Orange Men in the Big Brother house and watch the evictions!

Villain

Originally posted by Peter C
From what was said on the radio this morning and also the picture on the front of the Irish Times, these thugs did not listen to Gerry Kelly.

Well RTE's NI correspondent Tommy Gorman was on Morning Ireland on RTE Radio1 this morning and he said it was Gerry Kelly and others who stopped the Nationalist mob from going to the loyalist area, they weren't able to stop them from fighting with the PSNI and the army but they did prevent the mob from going into Loyalist areas to fight with Unionists. Oh and he was actually there!:)

Peter C

These thugs were out to maim who ever they came across, be it PSNI, British Army personel or loyalists. These layabouts have nothing else better to do and are always looking for an excuse to cause mayhem. 25 PSNI were injured by these SF/IRA scum.

I am sure there are other ways of protesting besides attacking the security forces who were there to protect both communities from each other. If the security foreces were not there, I am sure SF/IRA would have found complained about that too. These people are never happy with what the PSNI do.

Mighty_Mouse

From what was said on the radio this morning and also the picture on the front of the Irish Times, these thugs did not listen to Gerry Kelly.

Well I suppose when the parades commission was ignored, what chance did Gerry Kelly have

Peter C

Most of these thugs will use any excuse to cause trouble. Both sides were out to cause trouble judging by the missles thrown and used on the PSRI/Army as shown on todays front page of the Irish Times.

Batbat

these marches are lame, I dont understand the point of them, theyre like children all of them. losers

Sparks

Originally posted by Batbat
these marches are lame, I dont understand the point of them, theyre like children all of them. losers

Yeah, I've thought the same thing myself. But apparently, people actually enjoy St.Paddys day...

Batbat

the people in the north dont seem to enjoy the marches, they seem angry and upset about something

Sparks

Originally posted by Batbat
the people in the north dont seem to enjoy the marches, they seem angry and upset about something

The ones on the march seemed fine, the ones watching the march early on seemed fine, it was the drunken louts at the end seemed to be upset. Oddly enough, we get the same deal with Paddy's day, it's just that rather than attack each other, our lot make a mess of Grafton St and throw up along the quays....

sceptre

Originally posted by Batbat
these marches are lame, I dont understand the point of them, theyre like children all of them. losers

The point of the march is pretty simple. In the case of the loyalist marches, remind them that they're living in a protestant state for a protestant people. Or at least that's probably the idea, regardless of the "tradition" excuse that lends itself to good jokes about marching through ladies' loos.

Do Taigs march (outside of the civil rights marches in the sixties (man))?

AngelofFire

Im not a sinn fein supporter but i applaud Gerry kelly`s bravery and commitment last night he even shielded members of the police force from attacks by nationalists.

keu

it would make great Tv think of the Ratings! Put a bunch of hardcore Republicans and Orange Men in the Big Brother house and watch the evictions!

think your onto something there, hope someone from RTE is paying attention.

Irish04

The Fact is here is

The Parades commission said that the Orange Order supporters should not be allowed to travel up this majority nationalist road however as usual the Sectarian police force of the RUC/PSNI have shown the world nothing has changed and the 6 counties are run by Sectarians in.


Peter C, You are quite a sad individual. All your "Contributions" to this thread have been childish and non-sensical. You base your argument in your last post on what is shown on the front of a newspaper making you incrediby naive or incredibly stupid, you choose. You also Slate the nationalist community and say "25 PSNI were injured by these SF/IRA scum." I did not see any Volunteers from the IRA out nor did i see any members of Sinn Féin causing trouble. In fact, the Oppisite happened. The only Gunmen on show last night were the armed, sectarian police force and British Army along with their counterparts in the UFF/UDA which put on what they described as a show of strength. I saw no Oglaigh ná hÉireann show of strength. what i did see however was the most Senior North Belfast Sinn Féin man try to calm the crowd and prevent violence.

I would also like to ask the question, Why do we never see violence at Volunteer commemoration marches? Well the simple answer is these marches are not deliberatly planned to run through unionist or loyalist areas. The Orange Order (OO) on the other hand plan their marches through nationalist areas when there are other routes that will not provoke people. However the OO, always the sectarian bigots they are too dam thick to do this. They want an excuse for violence for reasons unknown. Also, the OO for people who will try and claim it is not sectarian do not allow catholics to join. They are a disgrace and up there with the Ku Klux Klan et al.

the people in the north dont seem to enjoy the marches, they seem angry and upset about something

Your sure the nationalist community do not enjoy watching sectarians marching with UFF and UVF flags flying.

Meh

Originally posted by Irish04
I saw no Oglaigh ná hÉireann show of strength.

That's hardly surprising. What on earth would the Irish Army have been doing there?

Irish04

exactly, the IRA had no need what so-ever to be there

AmenToThat

Originally posted by Muck

We should give them free tickets to Celtic Rangers matches and then let them at each other over there. Declare a No Go zone for security forces in Govan and herd in the Norn mob to finish the biz.

M

For the record Celtic fans havnt been involved in trouble for years.
What any of this has to do with the thread though is beyond me...............maybe you can explain?

NinjaBart

sporting contests are a convenient expression of identity based pride and rivalries in many contexts and far easier to cmprhend or comment on than the actual issues behind a conflict. alas it isnt the first or last time that we'll see celtic/rangers used for worthless comments by commentators who havent the ability to comment intelligently upon the northern sitatuion.

spongebob

Originally posted by AmenToThat
For the record Celtic fans havnt been involved in trouble for years.
What any of this has to do with the thread though is beyond me...............maybe you can explain?

The Celtic shirt on one of the rioters backs on the front of the Irish times today brought it Immediately to mind . Was he a proddy provocateur who snuck into the Ardoyne or wha' ?

For the record Celtic fans havnt been involved in trouble for years.

....except in Belfast , same with the other shower. Off to Govan with them all but make sure the security forces are around them not between them.

Ma

thejollyrodger

Is it me or does RTE's NI correspondent Tommy Gorman speak real slow and in short sentences to make it easier for us down south to understand that mess in belfast?

Poor British Soldiers, I wouldnt like to have to do that ugly job :ninja:

I think Celtic (and rangers) supporters are bigots and Celtic shirts should be banned from football match down south.

Irish04

Yes, your quite sad

"Poor British Soldiers"

Are these the same "poor british soldiers" as the ones who murder people daily in Iraq and use to do the same daily in Ireland

Johnny_the_fox

Originally posted by AmenToThat
For the record Celtic fans havnt been involved in trouble for years.

for the record your wrong... in April -> Celtic had to pay Kilmarnock for damage to seating done by Celtic supporters during the 1-0 win....

but this have nothing to do with celtic/rangers or any other football team... if they where all wearing Antrim tops - is the gaa to blame them??

anyway the cause of the rioting as many of you have missed was the 'Loyalist supporters' followed the orangeman up the road <into a catholic area>. The police were caught at the end .. hence the rioting... but sure the media in the north/other only reports when the Nationalist/Republicans side cause trouble.. :rolleyes:

Also if the Hibernians/Nationalists/Republicans where to walk down Loyalist areas on St. Patricks day - would there not be the same response?? :rolleyes:

Villain

Originally posted by Johnny_the_fox
for the record your wrong... in April -> Celtic had to pay Kilmarnock for damage to seating done by Celtic supporters during the 1-0 win....

For the record Celtic fans were

awarded world football's 2003 Fair Play Award for the "exemplary fair and cordial conduct"

Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/3313371.stm

por

Oh lets not get into the Celtic arse kissing here.

Marches by either tradiotion in NI are just an excuse for the certian elements in society to get out and cause trouble, that's the way it is and that's the way it always will be, both are equally scum if you ask me.

Mighty_Mouse

I find it quite hard to understand how posters in here immediately harp on about Sinn Fein/Republicans/IRA etc. Do ye even listen to yourselves and consider what happened?

For all the anti-republicanism in here surely the facts must be addressed. The only way we can move forward in Northern Ireland is by addressing simple questions like why did the PSNI/RUC overule the decision of the Parades Commission?

Peter C

The Fact is here is

The Parades commission said that the Orange Order supporters should not be allowed to travel up this majority nationalist road however as usual the Sectarian police force of the RUC/PSNI have shown the world nothing has changed and the 6 counties are run by Sectarians in.

Well Irish04,
The fact is that SF/IRA have intimidated the the nationalist people not to join the PSNI. SF wont even join the police board. They would rather use thier own brand of jungle justice to sort out problems in their own areas.


Peter C, You are quite a sad individual. All your "Contributions" to this thread have been childish and non-sensical. You base your argument in your last post on what is shown on the front of a newspaper making you incrediby naive or incredibly stupid, you choose. You also Slate the nationalist community and say "25 PSNI were injured by these SF/IRA scum." I did not see any Volunteers from the IRA out nor did i see any members of Sinn Féin causing trouble. In fact, the Oppisite happened. The only Gunmen on show last night were the armed, sectarian police force and British Army along with their counterparts in the UFF/UDA which put on what they described as a show of strength. I saw no Oglaigh ná hÉireann show of strength. what i did see however was the most Senior North Belfast Sinn Féin man try to calm the crowd and prevent violence.

Well again Irish04,
Typical guff from you lot, seeing the world through your green tinted glasses. If you my statement, i did not say they were members of SF/IRA. Maybe you can me who caused the injuries to the PSNI, supporters of the SDLP or the OO? I rest my case. And its about time Gerry Kelly done that, only pity the scum did not listen to him.

Quatre Mains

Originally posted by Irish04


I did not see any Volunteers from the IRA out nor did i see any members of Sinn Féin causing trouble.

...I would also like to ask the question, Why do we never see violence at Volunteer commemoration marches? Well the simple answer is these marches are not deliberatly planned to run through unionist or loyalist areas.

are you tring to be Gerry Adams or something? Your post paints a whiter-than-white picture of SF and the IRA, and you try to take the moral high ground slagging off the PSNI, loyalists and just about everyone but SF and the IRA... Your immature attitude to the british solidiers getting the ****e bet out of them the other night shows your true colours tho.
The sooner pig-headed 'nationalists' like yourself who turn a blind eye to the IRA beatings and drug dealing start accepting some blame for the general tension in NI, the sooner loyalists will do likewise. BOTH sides have a lot to answer for.

Mighty_Mouse

The fact is that SF/IRA have intimidated the the nationalist people not to join the PSNI. SF wont even join the police board. They would rather use thier own brand of jungle justice to sort out problems in their own areas

And you think yesterday encourages catholics to join? SF have not intimidated anybody but they do hold a lot of sway with their communities and when they dont endorse something, republicans trust its the right decision.

Now outside policing.... was it right or wrong for the PSNI/RUC to ignore the parades commission?

Mighty_Mouse

BOTH sides have a lot to answer for.

Who said different? Lets not get into 800 years stuff though> Answer this: who was responsible/who caused the situation yesterday?

Republicans or The PSNI/Orangemen/loyalists etc

Again, remember republicans have respected the decisions of the parades commission.

Batbat

The point of the march is pretty simple. In the case of the loyalist marches, remind them that they're living in a protestant state for a protestant people.

So if they dont march they will forget?, is it worth all the hassle, still seems lame marching around, at least paddys day is a bit of fun

I dont know what all the fuss is about every year

Civilian_Target

To be honest, I think the sadness is in the fact that the nationalist communities care about the fact that a couple of guys in bowler hats with drums walk down their street. Are they so narrow-minded that they can't tolerate it?

Theres a huge orange march in Rossnowlagh every year, a part of Donegal that's occupied by over 80% catholics. It's got the most festive, relaxed party atmosphere, it's really like St. Paddys Day. A couple of Gardai watch the march go down the main street, and then everyone goes to a field, has some burgers and tea (supplied free by the orange order) and just generally have a good time. In fact, there's a huge local attendance, it's very well received by everyone.

The way I see it, if the thugs of the north are going to be so intolerant, we should gather them all in one place and let them at each other. At least there'd be less of them for the rest of us to deal with.

Finally, never forget that Sinn Fein are the political wing of a terrorist organisation.

bonkey

Originally posted by Irish04
Peter C, You are quite a sad individual.

...and so on and so forth...

Irish04....I would heartily suggest that you refamiliarise yourself with the rules concerning attacking other posters.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by brocklanders
The sooner pig-headed 'nationalists' like yourself ...

The same applies to you, brocklanders.

If personal attacks like this continue in this thread, people will start getting banned.

jc

Batbat

The same applies to you, brocklanders.

brocklanders?

lynchie

Originally posted by Johnny_the_fox
for the record your wrong... in April -> Celtic had to pay Kilmarnock for damage to seating done by Celtic supporters during the 1-0 win....

For the record, you are wrong. What the 'Daily Ranger' forgot to mention in their article that the seats were broken not due to violence but because of fans jumping up and down on them after winning the match to claim the SPL title. I was at the match and in the section of the stand that had seats broken. It was nothing more than fans jumping up and down on them.

Sleepy

Would anyone else at this stage feel the British Army would be completely justified in policing these marches with a shoot to kill policy? I know I certainly would. If a dog bites, you punish it.

This childish nonsense has gone on for far too long in the north and I for one would be of the opinion that anyone that defies the parades commision deserves a bullet, ditto those that take it upon themselves to "defend" their areas from a few silly old fools banging drums.

Mighty_Mouse

Would anyone else at this stage feel the British Army would be completely justified in policing these marches with a shoot to kill policy? I know I certainly would. If a dog bites, you punish it.

Yea, why hasnt anyone thought of that?? Do you even take yourself seriously or do you just get a kick out of constantly baiting people?

marcowil

Just to make something clear from the beginning of my reply....
I do not watch or participate in Parades in Northern Ireland but I feel that people should have a right to march if that is their expression of celebrating their culture but they must respect those who do not agree with them and vice-versa.

I feel that one fact is being overlooked here. The parades commission ruling (direct quotation) ONLY covers "all persons taking part in the parade by Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland LOL 633 on Monday 12 July 2004"

It does not cover anyone who wants to watch or support the march who isn't a member of LOL 633.

From what I saw on TV and read in the press both the Orange Order and the PSNI adhered to the Parades Commission ruling - it was the supporters returning to their homes that seemed to give the Nationalist side cause for protest. That said, I am sure that not everyone who was supporting the march was from that area, just as not everyone protesting on the other side was from the Nationalist area. It is common knowledge that both sides get support from outside on occasions like this.

The ruling states (Part 17)

"The Commission sees this parade as a significant test of the loyalist and unionist community to adhere to the law and deliver a peaceful and lawful procession on the day. In particular it expects the community to ensure that no grouping of followers assembles in a way that would suggest to Ardoyne residents that a second un-notified parade might be taking place. The further restrictions on this parade are also intended to reassure residents close to this main thoroughfare, that the Commission takes their concerns seriously too. The Commission looks to community and political leaders on the nationalist side to ensure that only a peaceful and lawful protest takes place in the interface area. The violence associated with protests in this area make it more difficult for the Commission to challenge any bad behaviour in the parade"

This march was, as stated, along a main thoroughfare, used by both sides of the community and not through a perceived "nationalist" area.

As far as i know, no bad behaviour has been reported from the members of the parade itself (feel free to correct me if that is wrong). I accept that the number of supporters returning home may have been interpreted as a "second un-notified parade" but again, the parades Commission could only make a recommendation here - they have no jurisdiction over "supporters".

This in itself however is no reason for violence and the fact that violence erupted only gives credence to the Orange Orders claim that it does not matter what they do because Nationalists are only interested in stopping marches (and with it Protestant celebration of their culture) no matter what.

Community leaders on both sides should be berated for their lack of control and the only way forward that I can see is more dialogue. Politicians appearing on TV for a quick soundbite does nothing to help the process.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
The only way we can move forward in Northern Ireland is by addressing simple questions like why did the PSNI/RUC overule the decision of the Parades Commission?

With rulings like that can you blame Nationalists for being apprehensive about joining the PSNI.

thejollyrodger

well all i can say is thank god we dont have that rabble down here (all pariteis up north concerned)

Originally posted by marcowil

It does not cover anyone who wants to watch or support the march who isn't a member of LOL 633.

From what I saw on TV and read in the press both the Orange Order and the PSNI adhered to the Parades Commission ruling - it was the supporters returning to their homes that seemed to give the Nationalist side cause for protest. That said, I am sure that not everyone who was supporting the march was from that area, just as not everyone protesting on the other side was from the Nationalist area. It is common knowledge that both sides get support from outside on occasions like this.

Yes somebody was using their head.
They decided to hold an informal unofficial march back home and all wearing a sash were invited on this informal unofficial orange march home.

Who ever thought of that knew the parades commission ruling well and knew how to circumvent it.
After all a walk home wasn't breaking the law just the spirit of it.

Now no joking, but I wonder was that the shortest route home for most of those guys?
I'll bet it wasn't.
The commission will have to take note

Mighty_Mouse

Those fecking republicans just won't join the the police board!

This in itself however is no reason for violence and the fact that violence erupted only gives credence to the Orange Orders claim that it does not matter what they do because Nationalists are only interested in stopping marches (and with it Protestant celebration of their culture) no matter what.

Have you actually took leave of your senses!!! How does the Orange Order and supporters marching through the the Ardoyne area convince protestants that nationalists are unreasonable!! Nationalists have respected the rulings of the commission to date. Remember its not nationalists stopping Oranangism celebration of Catholic slaughter. Its an independant commission!

Sinn Féin’s Gerry Kelly has claimed that he and other republicans prevented a potential repeat of the Bloody Sunday killings in the Ardoyne area of Belfast earlier this month.

Mr Kelly said that if he and his colleagues had not prevented local nationalists from attacking the British army, people might have been shot.

Republicans have been widely praised for attempting to restrain nationalist rioters after the PSNI allowed 500 loyalists to march through the Ardoyne area on July 12.

British military sources have revealed that soldiers were close to opening fire at one stage after being cornered by the rioters.

One soldier is said to have cocked his rifle during the clashes.

Sand

This childish nonsense has gone on for far too long in the north and I for one would be of the opinion that anyone that defies the parades commision deserves a bullet, ditto those that take it upon themselves to "defend" their areas from a few silly old fools banging drums.

Firm, but fair.

Maybe even a regretable necessity at this stage.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by Sleepy
Would anyone else at this stage feel the British Army would be completely justified in policing these marches with a shoot to kill policy? I know I certainly would. If a dog bites, you punish it.

Does bloody sunday come to mind?.

Having NI or any state for that matter run as a police state does not work and it was one of the contributing factors to the troubles.

Mighty_Mouse

Maybe even a regretable necessity at this stage.

You advocate shooting people dead! And describe it as necessary!!:eek: At least were all very clear on how coloured and extreme your opinions on the north are!