Can you restrict residency based on Irish-language fluency?

ReefBreak

I've pasted the article from one of the papers below. I think other papers have also reported it. I'm pretty sure this is against the most basic EU laws that permit the free movement of labour and capital. Perhaps another example of the over-zealous Gaelic Gestapo?

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From http://www.unison.ie/irish_inde
pendent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1213391&issue_id=11123 :

Watch your language if you want an apartment in the Gaeltacht

HOUSE hunters in Connemara will have to brush up on their Irish if they want to buy or rent a new apartment.

If they meet standards on Irish, including a 30-minute interview to see if they are fluent enough, they will be able to buy an apartment in the new €10m complex in Spiddal, Co Galway.

It is all part of a language condition in the planning permission for the development which is aimed at ensuring that most of the apartments go to Irish-speakers in the Gaeltacht.

The condition, which is the first of its kind in the country, will also affect tenants, who will not be allowed to rent the flats if they don't speak Irish.

The restriction, which will affect 18 apartments in the complex, will remain in force for the next 10 years and will be monitored by Galway County Council.

However, 11 further apartments will be open to all buyers.

The developers of the complex, who were initially reluctant to implement the condition, reached a compromise with the council last week.

This followed a long-standing disagreement.

Late last year the council imposed the condition in an effort to protect the linguistic and cultural heritage of the area.

The clause, which is in accordance with the Co Galway Development Plan, states that any development in the Gaeltacht which would have a negative impact on the language would be refused.

A legal agreement, restricting the complex for the exclusive use of Irish speakers, should have been reached between the council and the builders before work commenced on the project.

However, the owner of the development, John Foye, began work before reaching such an agreement.

The council then issued a warning to the builder but the work continued on the site.

The language clause was finally agreed to after an Irish organisation, Comhdhail Naisiunta na Gaeilge, threatened to take a High Court injunction to halt the building work if the clause was not adhered to.

While this is the first time the rule has been invoked, a similar clause is due to affect developments in the Carraroe, Spiddal and Barna areas.

seamus

A perfect example of where county councils are allowed to run rife and openly abuse and discriminate in the planning/buying market.

I understand their POV, but at the end of the day, insisting that one speaks a language is as xenophobic and nannyish as you can get.

Will they insist next that those who fail to speak Irish when ordering something in the bar, get 20 lashes with the whip?

:rolleyes:

Sleipnir

I think they should only let people buy apartments there if they are white.



not really. Just making a point

bonkey

Originally posted by seamus
but at the end of the day, insisting that one speaks a language is as xenophobic and nannyish as you can get.

So if you were a landlord in, say, Dublin...you'd have no problem whatsoever with tenants who didn't speak a word of English?

You wouldn't have a problem dealing with them if all they spoke was, say, Mandarin?

I assume you wouldn't, given that to do so would be as xenophobic and nannyish as you can get, right ???

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
II'm pretty sure this is against the most basic EU laws that premit the free movement of labour and capital.

I don't think so. I believe that minority heritages such as Irish is classified as (and/or the Gaeltacht region in general) get some amount of leeway here in order to protect them.

I could, of course, be completely wrong.

jc

Sleipnir

Point taken but this isn't some racist landlord refusing to rent to foreigners.

This is a County Council saying
"You have the money, in fact you have everything you need to purchase a property. However you didn't pay attention in school therefore we won't sell it to you"

What if you were from the area, had saved up the deposit for 5 years and could actually afford a place here only to find that because you went to school in another part of the country or a different country you can't buy it.

I'd be fairly put out.
The point is, if you can prevent people buying property based on what language they speak, why can't you prevent them buying a property because the buyer is a woman? Or gay?

dahamsta

Originally posted by bonkey
So if you were a landlord in, say, Dublin...you'd have no problem whatsoever with tenants who didn't speak a word of English?

You wouldn't have a problem dealing with them if all they spoke was, say, Mandarin?

I assume you wouldn't, given that to do so would be as xenophobic and nannyish as you can get, right ???

This is something that bugs me. I know it sounds xenophobic, but I hate that immigrants come to Ireland and make hardly any attempt to learn the language. Even worse, I hate that employers give them jobs without attempting to teach them. For example, I went to a wedding in Inchydoney Hotel last year and half of the staff could hardly speak english. Ridiculous.

adam

seamus

Originally posted by bonkey
So if you were a landlord in, say, Dublin...you'd have no problem whatsoever with tenants who didn't speak a word of English?

You wouldn't have a problem dealing with them if all they spoke was, say, Mandarin?

I assume you wouldn't, given that to do so would be as xenophobic and nannyish as you can get, right ???

jc

Well frankly, yes it would be annoying, and if I was in that situation, I can't say that I wouldn't err on the side of English-speaking people. Off-topic, but I'd prefer asian lodgers to Irish lodgers. Landlords are free to choose whomever they want, it's their property after all.

It's a slightly different situation though. The planning permission expressly states these restrictions, not the landlords. If it was individual landlords stating, "I don't want any foreigners", well, we'd be annoyed, but who are we to force them to take lodgers against their will? What if DCC decided tomorrow that they'd would only offer planning permission on the understanding that all residents would have a certain fluency in English, to preserve the English-Speaking Irishness of Dublin? Would they be allowed? Would they ****!

What if landlords in this area want to take a certain lodger, but they fail Irish fluency test? Is it right that we should tell them they have to take someone else that they didn't want?

ChipZilla

Who'd want to live in a €10m apartment complex with a bunch of beardy, cardigan-wearing Gaelgoiri anyway?

bonkey

Originally posted by seamus
Well frankly, yes it would be annoying, and if I was in that situation, I can't say that I wouldn't err on the side of English-speaking people.

Which is a round-about way of saying that you would insist that they speak your language, or at least that you can see this happening in some cases.

It's a slightly different situation though. The planning permission expressly states these restrictions, not the landlords.

Ah. I see. So when the individual does it, its not xenophobic, but when the body does it, it is.

That sounds like double-standards to me. I accept that the landlord isn't nannying anyone, but if insistence that they speak your language is xenophobic, then the landlord is equally as xenophobic in insisting his tenants be able to speak the local tongue as the CC would be in requiring the same.

What if DCC decided tomorrow that they'd would only offer planning permission on the understanding that all residents would have a certain fluency in English, to preserve the English-Speaking Irishness of Dublin? Would they be allowed? Would they ****!

About 10 or 15 years ago (I think), there was talk of building a tourist centre somewhere in the Burren, and the amount of red tape which had to be gone through in order to protect a rare, valued and irreplaceable resource was staggering.

By your logic, thats completely unfair - after all you'd never be allowed place the same restrictions on building something in Dublin. But I'm sure you can see why it was the case in the Burren, and why it would be the case in any other similarly precious area which we were seeking to preserve.

Or do you think that it should be as easy to build, say, a new housing estate somewhere amidst the Lakes of Killarney as, say, on the outskirts of Dublin?

In fact, the conclusion of your logic seems to be that there shouldn't actually be any form of control on what you can build where, and/or what restrictions can be put on it. Thats all just nannying, which is clearly bad from what you're saying.

The Gaeltacht is an equally rare, valued, and irreplaceable resource, and just as CO2 emissions from increased traffic would threaten the Burren and a housing estate would spoil (not just threaten to) the natural beauty of the Lakes, so too would a significant increase of non-Irish-speakers in the Gaeltacht (particulrly in one of its few reasonably successful towns) threaten the Gaeltacht.

jc

seamus

Originally posted by bonkey
Ah. I see. So when the individual does it, its not xenophobic, but when the body does it, it is.

That's not what I said. It is perfectly xenophobic of the individual, but the individual isn't representative of us, the country. The county councils and local Government are though. While we must accept xenophobia existing at an individual level, because it's out of our control, we don't have to accept it at a governmental level.

By your logic, thats completely unfair - after all you'd never be allowed place the same restrictions on building something in Dublin. But I'm sure you can see why it was the case in the Burren, and why it would be the case in any other similarly precious area which we were seeking to preserve.

Or do you think that it should be as easy to build, say, a new housing estate somewhere amidst the Lakes of Killarney as, say, on the outskirts of Dublin?

In fact, the conclusion of your logic seems to be that there shouldn't actually be any form of control on what you can build where, and/or what restrictions can be put on it. Thats all just nannying, which is clearly bad from what you're saying.

The Gaeltacht is an equally rare, valued, and irreplaceable resource, and just as CO2 emissions from increased traffic would threaten the Burren and a housing estate would spoil (not just threaten to) the natural beauty of the Lakes, so too would a significant increase of non-Irish-speakers in the Gaeltacht (particulrly in one of its few reasonably successful towns) threaten the Gaeltacht.

Then we are going to have to agree to disagree. IMO, you're comparing apples and oranges. I don't regard the Gaeltacht as something which requires protection for posterity or heritage. If it dies, it dies. I wouldn't like to think that the Government would do its damndest to prohibit mass migration from the Gaeltacht areas, something which would have an equally devastating effect on the number of Irish speakers (although obviously a much less likely scenario).

In a perfectly hypocritical opinion, I wouldn't have much of an issue with concessions for those who do speak Irish, or who agree to take classes, and make an effort. At least then you're not stopping anyone from living there. Although the preservation of Gaeltacht areas is a non-issue for me, the majority might feel otherwise.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by bonkey
I believe that minority heritages such as Irish is classified as (and/or the Gaeltacht region in general) get some amount of leeway here in order to protect them.

Classified as a minority in the country but a majority in the Connemara region.

I don't see why people are getting so upset about this, if you move to the US or Canada they expect a certain degree of fluency in English and French if you move to Quebec before you're even considered. Likewise, if you move to the Gaelteacht then surely it's not not unreasonable to expect you to have some degree of fluency in Irish?

ishmael whale

http://www.europarl.eu.int/charter/default_en.htm
‘The European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights sets out in a single text, for the first time in the European Union's history, the whole range of civil, political, economic and social rights of European citizens and all persons resident in the EU.’

“Article 21
Non-discrimination
1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.”

Or as (some) people say in Spiddal

“Airteagal 21
Neamhidirdhealú
1. Tá toirmiscthe aon idirdhealú arna bhunú ar aon bhonn amhail gnéas, cine, dath, tionscnamh eitneach nó sóisialta, airíonna géiniteacha, teanga, reiligiún nó creideamh, tuairimí polaitiúla nó eile, ballraíocht i mionlach náisiúnta, maoin, breith, míchumas, aois nó treoshuíomh gnéasach.”

This would seem to clearly rule out the Irish language requirement. Obviously there must be some qualification to this Article. Otherwise you’d have blind surgeons and legless firemen. But clearly an Irish language requirement would be an impediment to, say, a person moving here from Germany to take up residence in Ireland.

Hobbes

Listening on the radio this morning about this.

I think it is a good idea considering the area in question is in the Gaeltacht region. It would be a bit pointless moving in people who are for the most part destroy the Gaeltacht. The only other option is start making more people speak Irish, or your going to see the end of the Irish language sooner.

* Note: I don't speak Irish at all.

As for the EU, the Maastrict treaty had a provision in it that stopped Germans from buying houses in another country (think it was holland, I forget).

So its not like this isn't new to the EU.

bonkey

Originally posted by seamus
That's not what I said. It is perfectly xenophobic of the individual, but the individual isn't representative of us, the country.

Fair enough. I'm surprised you see it as xenophobic. Personally, I would have said that it was simple business acumen not to enter into a contract with people he is unable to communicate with. For a start...how do you actually sign the contract? What language is the contract written in?

I don't regard the Gaeltacht as something which requires protection for posterity or heritage.

OK - lets try this again...

If it were such a place, then does that mitigate the protectionist measure being taken?

Whether or not you consider that it is such a place is not the issue. Its whether or not those who passed the law made it on the basis of it being a resource to be protected, or made it on the basis that htey are being xenophobic.

What you think has absolutely no bearing on the logic that they applied, and - at best - your disagreement is clearly not with teh method taken, but rather the reasoning why that method was taken.

In other words, its not xenophobic, and its not nannying.
Its neither of these things unless the reasoning behind it was xenophobic or nannying in nature. It wasn't - it was protectionist, and it was brought about by those who have a responsibility to protect the language.


If that doesn't sway you, I'd ask how it is xenophobic when 11 of the 29 apartments will be open to all buyers.

In a perfectly hypocritical opinion, I wouldn't have much of an issue with concessions for those who do speak Irish, or who agree to take classes, and make an effort.

So you, as a tax-payer, would be willing to pay for people to learn Irish if they were living there, but don't care if the language dies out or not? Thats counter-intuitive, surely.

Or do you think the money for your suggestion would be stumped up by the constructor???

Although the preservation of Gaeltacht areas is a non-issue for me, the majority might feel otherwise.

Its far from a non-issue, judging from what you've written here. You're somewhat actively against it given that you see the steps being taken in the name of preservation as xenophobic, and have said that you couldn't care less if it lives or dies and that the government shouldn't be going to any heroic measures to save it.

jc

seamus

Originally posted by bonkey
Fair enough. I'm surprised you see it as xenophobic. Personally, I would have said that it was simple business acumen not to enter into a contract with people he is unable to communicate with. For a start...how do you actually sign the contract? What language is the contract written in?

The offical language of the country. If the can't read it, that's their problem, they probably shouldn't sign it (and maybe it could be ruled as invalid because one party was incapable of understanding it) but it's not a reason to deny them the home.

OK - lets try this again...

If it were such a place, then does that mitigate the protectionist measure being taken?

Whether or not you consider that it is such a place is not the issue. Its whether or not those who passed the law made it on the basis of it being a resource to be protected, or made it on the basis that htey are being xenophobic.

What you think has absolutely no bearing on the logic that they applied, and - at best - your disagreement is clearly not with teh method taken, but rather the reasoning why that method was taken.

In other words, its not xenophobic, and its not nannying.
Its neither of these things unless the reasoning behind it was xenophobic or nannying in nature. It wasn't - it was protectionist, and it was brought about by those who have a responsibility to protect the language.

Obviously some wires have gotten crossed here (and they're probably mine). I don't have a problem with the reason behind it. I have a problem with the method. As I said, I can see their POV, and wouldn't really have an issue with encouraging those who wish to move in, to speak Irish. I feel that imposing such a restriction is excessively protective, to the point of being xenophobic.

If that doesn't sway you, I'd ask how it is xenophobic when 11 of the 29 apartments will be open to all buyers.

You're still denying potential buyers from having the apartments.

So you, as a tax-payer, would be willing to pay for people to learn Irish if they were living there, but don't care if the language dies out or not? Thats counter-intuitive, surely.

Not necessarily. I can see why certain areas are under protection orders, and people are prevented from changing them, but I couldn't really give a toss if someone built a nice big house for themselves where before they had a ramshackle cottage. But I've no issue with my tax going towards that upkeep, because I know that it does make some, or most people in the country happy. Other people's tax go towards paying for things which benefit me, but which they're fairly neutral or apathetic towards, so why shouldn't my tax do the same?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
But clearly an Irish language requirement would be an impediment to, say, a person moving here from Germany to take up residence in Ireland.

Nope - only to such a person taking up residence in a designated building in a Gaeltacht area.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Nope - only to such a person taking up residence in a designated building in a Gaeltacht area.

Originally posted by Hobbes
As for the EU, the Maastrict treaty had a provision in it that stopped Germans from buying houses in another country (think it was holland, I forget).

So its not like this isn't new to the EU.

Extract from Maastricht protocols:

“DESIRING to settle certain particular problems relating to Denmark,
HAVING AGREED UPON the following provision, which shall be annexed to the Treaty establishing the European Community:
Notwithstanding the provisions of this Treaty, Denmark may maintain the existing legislation on the acquisition of second homes.”

In the Maastricht Treaty, Denmark won a permanent restriction on the purchase of second homes by EU nationals in an effort to prevent Germans from buying up the Danish seaside. I think Malta obtained a similar exemption on entry.

It’s not a restriction on EU nationals moving to Denmark to live and work, it seems to predate Maastricht and it has a specific exemption in the treaty. The business in Spiddal seems to be a new requirement, it might prevent an EU national from moving there to live and seems to have no exemption given in any EU treaty (unless someone can enlighten us on this).

Hobbes

Originally posted by ishmael whale
it might prevent an EU national from moving there to live and seems to have no exemption given in any EU treaty (unless someone can enlighten us on this).

I dont see how it could prevent them. They could get an Irish lawyer to help them, then learn Irish when they move into that area.

Should I expect people in Germany to speak English for me? Or that all documents, etc should be translated to English for me just so I can move there?

mike65

I just hope all the Irish speakers are happy together and that Irish-speaking regions don't become ghettos due to laws like this.

Mike.

ChipZilla

As I already said, why would a non-Irish-speaking person want to live there anyway? If you weren't speaking the lingo, the locals would avoid you like you had a bad dose of herpes.

Fu*k the lot of 'em. They're a dying breed anyway... Let them enjoy their little enclave while they can.

spongebob

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I'm pretty sure this is against the most basic EU laws that permit the free movement of labour and capital. Perhaps another example of the over-zealous Gaelic Gestapo?
.

I totally agree with the premise except that Galway County Council have made a complete balls of it and should be brought to the High Court to get their asses kicked.

M

arcadegame2004

I don't really agree with this, unless the State is prepared to alter the way Irish is taught in secondary schools. I recall Irish being rammed down my throat back then (I am 24). FAR too much emphasis is being placed on stories, poetry, and nouns. Far too little effort is invested in teaching students conversational Irish. No wonder Irish-speaking is in freefall.

Champ

FAR too much emphasis is being placed on stories, poetry, and nouns.

I think thats why they're using aural exams; both tapes and human examiners to try to address the balance. I became reasonably good at speaking Irish; though never could rise up to Honours standard; which is probably a good indication of the skill level you really need to effectively speak the language.

Plus once i left second level; i became really rusty having no motivation to keep up the skill.

Dancing duck

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I don't really agree with this, unless the State is prepared to alter the way Irish is taught in secondary schools. I recall Irish being rammed down my throat back then (I am 24). FAR too much emphasis is being placed on stories, poetry, and nouns. Far too little effort is invested in teaching students conversational Irish. No wonder Irish-speaking is in freefall.

They're getting desperate, latest statistics show that only roughly 33% of Gaeltacht dwellers speak Irish on a daily basis. Hundreds of millions have been thrown at these areas in a bid to keep the natives speaking as Gaeilge. Grants are given for speaking Irish, for trying to speak Irish, for building a house in the area, for setting up a business in the area, for teaching your workers Irish, for keeping students, and for keeping tourists. The result has been an unmitigated failure; the creation of a virtual Gaeltacht that exists primarily in the minds of those who attempt to administrate it; Dublin-based bureaucrats.

Now they're trying to act against this, but like arcadegame said, what they really need to do to breathe some life back into it, is to change how it's being taught in the schools, which is at the moment, badly.

You're saying who wants to live in the Gaeltacht when they can't speak the lingo, but believe me, it's happening. Was there for June and there were English living and working right there in Conemara, an hour and half from Galway and staring blankly at anyone speaking Irish and just answering 'cheers' to everything.

giveth

Likewise, if you move to the Gaelteacht then surely it's not not unreasonable to expect you to have some degree of fluency in Irish?

The BIG difference is that I am a citizen of ireland, and if Galway council have their way, I will not be allowed to live in certain areas of MY country.

Dancing duck

Originally posted by Champ
I think thats why they're using aural exams; both tapes and human examiners to try to address the balance. I became reasonably good at speaking Irish; though never could rise up to Honours standard; which is probably a good indication of the skill level you really need to effectively speak the language.

See, that's the thing, the classrooms are full of people who couldn't even tell you with confidence a few things about their area, or their school, or their life, but they're doing the Honours paper and course because all you have to do (and all you're told to do) is go home each day and stare at a couple of pages full of words you don't know the meaning of, until you know it off by heart, and are able to reproduce it an exam.

Yes the aurals and orals make sure that those genuinely good at the language don't go unnoticed, and do get the better results, but these parts too can be completed successfully by doing nothing but study, with or without an aptitude, or love for the language.

The sooner the education board realises we already do English as a school subject and therefore experience the joys of studying and commenting on poetry, stories etc. etc. the better

And the poems and stories are far more pointless in Irish than in English since very few have the vocabulary to convey their opinions on these types of things in Irish (sure aren't we still mastering conversational basics) and the only point of studying these things in English is to do just that (appreciate and differentiate).

The (majority) of Irish teachers do nothing in secondary schools these days but translate pages of notes to be learnt off, and it's not by their own choice (they're teaching the language because they hold it in some esteem) but because the length and direction of the curriculum allows them to do nothing else.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by giveth
The BIG difference is that I am a citizen of ireland, and if Galway council have their way, I will not be allowed to live in certain areas of MY country.

Are you allowed to live in Phoenix Park?

giveth

Are you allowed to live in Phoenix Park?

Oh come on! Irish fluency tests would restrict my ability to live in LARGE AREAS of cork, Kerry, Galway, Donegal, etc.

bonkey

Originally posted by giveth
Oh come on! Irish fluency tests would restrict my ability to live in LARGE AREAS of cork, Kerry, Galway, Donegal, etc.

At present, they would restrict your ability to live in 18 of 29 apartments in a complex in Spiddal. Thats a lot smaller than Phoenix Park, but its apparently enough to get up in arms about!

Regarding the teaching of Irish....I don't want to go too far down a sidetrack, but my experience (having attended schools in a number of towns) was that wherever the teacher was enthusiastic about Irish, the standard was vastly superior to where the teacher was actually giving students the attitude (or at least agreeing with it when a student expressed it) that Irish was a waste of time but a mandatory one so there was no choice. I know that all bar one of my cousins in Dublin each had an identical experience - a teacher saying "I know you don't like learning this, I know I don't like teaching this, and I know it will never be of any use to any of us, but its a requirement and we have to do it".

You can improve the syllabus all you like, but while attitudes like that persist amongst those teaching the language in Primary level, you're doomed before you begin. By the time you get to secondary, where a teacher who has chosen to specialise in Irish may be more enthusiastic, every single student will be too far gone down the Apathy Way for it to make a difference.

I agree the syllabus needs modification, but only as part of the solution....and I have no idea how the government can deal with teacher's attitudes....

jc

Dancing duck

Originally posted by bonkey

Regarding the teaching of Irish....I don't want to go too far down a sidetrack, but my experience (having attended schools in a number of towns) was that wherever the teacher was enthusiastic about Irish, the standard was vastly superior to where the teacher was actually giving students the attitude (or at least agreeing with it when a student expressed it) that Irish was a waste of time but a mandatory one so there was no choice. I know that all bar one of my cousins in Dublin each had an identical experience - a teacher saying "I know you don't like learning this, I know I don't like teaching this, and I know it will never be of any use to any of us, but its a requirement and we have to do it".

I agree the syllabus needs modification, but only as part of the solution....and I have no idea how the government can deal with teacher's attitudes....

jc

I've never heard of an Irish teacher who said that 'Irish was a waste of time but a mandatory one so there was no choice'. From my experiences the teachers of Irish are more frustrated by its current state of affairs than the students are. We assume they actually have a firm grasp of the language, and yet they are expected to act as monkeys for the government continuing on with this points system, year after year after year.

The parts of the syllabus they can make personal imput on, they usually do; the essays, the culturally enlightening 'history of Irish'. But they know they have no choice but to dictate the bog standard poems and the like, and so of course they're going to admit this when asked.
In case people have forgotten, the entire 5th year and part of 6th year is spent getting through the poems and short stories alone. There is virtually no interaction or discussion on these, just translate, learn, reiterate. This entire section makes up only say 15% of the marks on the actual exam papers yet takes up the majority of the 'teaching' time and huge quantities of study time for the student.
You'd think with languages the system wouldn't still make you rely almost entirely on your memory, but alas, it does.

I know plenty of people with a genuine love for the language and what it represents, and still they may not do the higher paper just because their memory and their time limitations do not allow.
I know this could be said for most of the other subjects, but I think the Irish syllabus is most in need of restoration.

Sand

Well its xenophobic, discriminatory and counter productive. The Gaeltachts are dying, bitter last stands arent going to change anything.

That said, the only people being punished are the people trying to seel the appts as theyre going to get a lesser price than they would normally as their demand is dramaically slashed. Its actually a textbook case of how bigotry is punished by the market.

spongebob

In May 2003 Galway adopted a county development plan , there are conditions for developments in Gaeltacht areas and in other heritage type areas, not all relate to language .......

In Jan-July 2004, less than a year later, the PLANNERS have completely ignored the guidelines in that plan and decided not to enforce them. The total failure of the planners (again) to enforce planning in Galway is the issue that has people up in arms.

This would be a good one for An Taisce, tasked as they are with the protection of heritage in its broader sense. Next thing the Galway the planners will allow holiday apartment complexes in National Parks if they get away with this one.

A more corrupt and inept bunch of sleeveens I have never seen

M

AmenToThat

This is not people in Irish speaking ares forcing people in English speaking areas to speak Irish, this is people trying to protect the heritage of their own area.
So personally I really dont care what laws are being broken by this ruling!
Anything that helps (within reason) preserve the Irish language within regions that still speak the language is ok in my opinion.

de5p0i1er

Well if this is the way the country is going I'll stay the hell away from these areas if were not good enough to live there because we don't speak Irish then I'll spend my money else where.

spongebob

They cost about €300k for a 2 Bed Apartment . Most people cannot afford to live in them anyway.

M

sceptre

Originally posted by de5p0i1er
Well if this is the way the country is going I'll stay the hell away from these areas if were not good enough to live there because we don't speak Irish then I'll spend my money else where.

Nice chips from Nico's in Moycullen though. Can't remember whether Moycullen is Gaeltacht or Galltacht. Either way if you're in Knocknacarra and notice that no-one speaks Irish in this current Gaeltacht area of Galway city, it's worth the five mile trip.

All joking aside, is Spiddal one of those areas (like Furbo, HQ (I think, could be wrong) of An Roinn Gnóthaí Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta) where daily usage has dropped below 50%? Is the TG4 outfit there keeping it above the waterline?

In 1926 it was recommended that Gaeltacht areas be defined as areas that had more than 80% Irish usage. By 1956, the last boundary revision, standards had dropped somewhat to any area a local councillor could get into the grants scheme. And lots of 50%+ Irish-language areas as well. Knocknacarra came under the latter description before they started building hundreds of houses there. These days it's down to about 1-2% there. Still grant-enabled though. Muck would obviously know far more about this than I (given that he presumably doesn't live 80 miles away like diddums here does). He speaks the language too so he's two up.

Holy sweet mother jacob, three hundred grand for an apartment in Spiddal? Pay me three hundred grand in small unmarked bills and I'll happily speak urdu for the next fifty years but easy access to nice chips and no motorway isn't worth that much to me. And there's only a Supermacs in Spiddal. Last time I passed through (months ago) I noticed a big development sign there with a mention of apartments available to me if I spoke the language of my great great grandfather but I didn't think they'd be that much.

robbie1876

Haha, I think the developers are trying to pull a fast one here. They know there is a certain Irish speaking minority population that would love for a chance to pass a test and be able to ask their neighbours "An bhuil tu ag cup o' Suicra" or whatever.

So the developers have lashed up the price, using Gaeilge as their marketing gimmick. While I am no Irish speaker, I am saddened that the language is being used to line the developer's pockets.

arcadegame2004

The Government is wasting taxpayers' money by refusing to redraw the boundaries of the Gaeltacht. It is unbelievable, in particular, that they insist on parts of Co.Waterford remaining designated Gaeltacht areas. It would be sheer lunacy if they were to bring in restrictions on residency in Co.Waterford on the basis of not being an Irish-speaker. Is this planned??

spongebob

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The Government is wasting taxpayers' money by refusing to redraw the boundaries of the Gaeltacht.

Correct. Half the population of the Official Gaeltacht nationally is in Galway City . There are more Nigerians and Romanians in the 'official ' Gaeltacht than daily Irish speakers .

At the moment the pace of development in Moycullen Barna Claregalway and Spiddal is frantic . All 4 are in the Gaeltacht but only Spiddal is worth the lingusitic exception and therefore worth the enfocement to the letter of teh County Development plan. Galway County Council have the same legal obligation in all 4 villages but to all practical purposes it is pointless enforcing it in the other 3 villages as they ceased to be Gaeltachts by the 1970's .

The developer in Spiddal has ridden roughshod over the planning process to such an extent that I can only conclude that the Council Planners have actively connived with him in so doing. Alternatively they are gross incompetents and should be sacked en masse. In order to bring some clarity and balance back into the planning process I hope the Council will draw the line here before they are brought to the High Court to have a backbone stiffening mechanism inserted forcibly from below. The County developement plan...for better or worse...has to last another 4 years. It will be crippled during that time if not enforced now.

The Developer was blasting on the site in March while there was a school open across the road. He was not even supposed to START the development until the Language plan was in place.

Thats why I think An Taisce should step into this particular argument.

BTW Sceptre , the same 2 Bed apartments are €350k in Barna (€500k in one location) , Spiddal is cheap

M

sceptre

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
It is unbelievable, in particular, that they insist on parts of Co.Waterford remaining designated Gaeltacht areas.

Indeed. Ireland's smallest Gaeltacht area. - 3 electoral divisions (the total number of EDs in the entire Gaeltacht is 154). However, and this will probably surprise the hell out of some people, the Waterford Gaeltacht is not only not at the bottom of the pile in terms of daily use, but of the Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht who speak Irish on a daily basis as a percentage of the population of those areas, An Rinn is actually at the top with 53% (1996 figures used by the 2002 Coimisiún na Gaeltachta report (I've a pdf, a quick google will get you the report) as they were the most recent at the time). It's Mayo taking the hammering at 36%-odd. Of course the default language in Ring is English (or at least it appeared to be last time I was there, same with Ballyvourney). These days, we're largely measuring ability and willingness.

There's obviously a good reason for this. The Waterford Gaeltacht is so small compared to the others (particularly Galway but Mayo as well) and relatively sparsely populated (Dungarvan is the nearest town, bit of a difference between that and Spiddal's relationship to Galway) that there aren't hordes of English speakers racing down there to sell nick-nacks or talk as Béarla while making glassware. Having said that, Ring still doesn't make it into the top 18 highlighted list of places where people actually speak Irish on a regular basis (the bulk of the glory there goes to Co Galway as you might expect).

Of course the usage in school by kids is still skewing the figures. We don't really have a million and a half people who "use" Irish on a daily basis if you eliminate the classrooms. the fgures are just as skewed in many of the Gaeltacht areas. The 1996 census revealed that in the 3-4 age group (just before school-going age) the percentage of dailt Irish speakers in the entire Gaeltacht was 44.4%, jumping to 76.1% in the 5-9 group as the kids go to school. The first figure is a fair indicator of the percentage of Gaeltacht kiddies learning the language at home. Drop a wee bit for the people who are lying about it and there you go.

As you say, it's a waste of taxpayers cash by refusing to redraw (or even reconsider) the Gaeltacht boundaries. I'd come at it from the additional point of view that it's pretty hard to send resources to help a language when you're duty bound to send those resources to areas where people never use it as well (in other words, apart from the odd additional tourist an English-speaking area might get because it gets a green blob on the map, the lack of focus of resources on the necessary area is hampering the progress of the area that needs and/or deserves it). That's regardless of whether the resources should be sent - if they're being sent they should really be going where they're supposed to be, for the purpose they're supposed to be. I'm reasonably sure that most people would agree with that.

Realistically there are very few fíor-Gaeltacht areas left. Little area of Kerry, a little nod in West Cork, an island off SW Cork with a population under 200, reasonable bits of Donegal, a few other small areas and a fair chunk of west Galway. We're honestly talking under 20,000 people at this point. Add in a few individual houses, omit all the schoolkids who won't be using it later (and that's most of the Gaelscoil kids as well) and it isn't much to speak of. Keeping the cash pointed at areas where Irish is never used and will never be used and it's making a mockery of the fund even on its own terms.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by Hobbes
Should I expect people in Germany to speak English for me? Or that all documents, etc should be translated to English for me just so I can move there?

This is really not the point. The point is that part of the commitment we take on as members of the EU has to do with freedom of movement. Irish people can move to anywhere in Germany, buy a home and generally go about our business. We are not obliged to learn German to do this.

Now you might find that not speaking German while living in Germany would be a practical obstacle to getting around, but there is no legal impediment. In the case of Spiddal, lack of knowledge of the Irish language is less of a practical obstacle but there is an attempt to put in a legal impediment that would, on the face of it, seem to conflict with our EU obligations not to discriminate on the basis of language.

That said, to change these rules you would have to find an EU national refused the right to buy one of these apartments because of failure to meet the Irish language requirement who was then willing to take the case to the Courts. That’s hardly likely. On balance I’d be willing to let Galway County Council follow its own lights.

Repealing the ludicrous Official Language Act of 2003 is a far more pressing concern.

Originally posted by Dancing duck
They're getting desperate, latest statistics show that only roughly 33% of Gaeltacht dwellers speak Irish on a daily basis. Hundreds of millions have been thrown at these areas in a bid to keep the natives speaking as Gaeilge. Grants are given for speaking Irish, for trying to speak Irish, for building a house in the area, for setting up a business in the area, for teaching your workers Irish, for keeping students, and for keeping tourists. The result has been an unmitigated failure; the creation of a virtual Gaeltacht that exists primarily in the minds of those who attempt to administrate it; Dublin-based bureaucrats.

I agree with almost everything you say. But I think you’ll actually find this does not have to do with ‘Dublin based bureaucrats’. The headquarters of Údarás na Gaeltachta is in Galway. It has to do with people ag caint as Bearla gach lá but wanting to retain the financial incentives that go with living in a Gaeltacht.

spongebob

Originally posted by ishmael whale
It has to do with people ag caint as Bearla gach lá but wanting to retain the financial incentives that go with living in a Gaeltacht.

There are far more Skanger speakers in Dublin than daily Irish speakers in Ring. It is undoubtedly THE most charming dialect of Hiberno English , lets get it its deserved recognition in the Constitution and then lets get it recognised as an Official working language of the EU too while we are at it .

'Giz a fag Anto '

M

This is really not the point. The point is that part of the commitment we take on as members of the EU has to do with freedom of movement. Irish people can move to anywhere in Germany, buy a home and generally go about our business. We are not obliged to learn German to do this.

But the thing is that this restriction is not being applied to a country nor a county as a whole. Its being applied to a development of housing. There are plenty of other housing schemes in the region that non-irish speakers can purchase. There is no discrimination here. If there was no other option, then yes, I'd agree with you, but there are other options.

And besides, at 300k apiece, its a limited segment of the country that's going to be excluded. And I don't know how many of the posters here on boards that are so against this issue, actually have the money to purchase such housing, or would be interested in Spiddeal if they did have the cash.....

ishmael whale

Originally posted by klaz
But the thing is that this restriction is not being applied to a country nor a county as a whole. Its being applied to a development of housing. There are plenty of other housing schemes in the region that non-irish speakers can purchase. There is no discrimination here. If there was no other option, then yes, I'd agree with you, but there are other options.

If a rule limits the choices of people on the basis of some ground – in this case language – then its discrimination. Now I agree a sense of proportion is needed. The language requirement only applies to this particular development at present. You could correctly say it does not greatly reduce the housing options open to non-Irish speakers. But it is wrong to say it has no impact.

It would equally be wrong not to appreciate that there is an issue of principle at stake. Presumably, if unchallenged, this could represent the shape of things to come. If a language criterion was established generally for new housing developments or even other fields of activity in areas deemed to be Gaeltachts this would have significance. This has no personal impact on me, but persons living and moving to Gaeltacht areas who do not have Irish could very well ask what is the meaning of freedom of movement in the EU if it can be restricted in this way.

oh come on. People are seeming to take this to extremes. freedom of movement is a farce. Its a lovely Idea, but its not currently in force. Can you honestly tell me that you are able to visit any part of the EU without some restriction being in place?

AS for this expanding outwards to affect other areas, I don't see how it could. This is for an irish speaking area. The people who desire to live in this area should have a capacity to speak irish. Otherwise why aren't theys seeking housing in any of the other housing developments in Galway or other parts of Ireland.

The people who are complaining about this are complaining for the sake of complaining. It doesn't have any affect on them. If any of the posters here can tell me that they'd honestly consider Spiddeal for their house, (and they're willing to pay 300k to buy it), I'll withdraw my objection to these complaints, but, until I do see someone claiming this, I'll consider this to be scare-mongering (or seeking trouble) for its own sake.

spongebob

They are free to move into the 90% of housing in Spiddal that is not subject to any restrictions on ownership or tenancy ....assuming they can afford to .

The 6 months qualification for Rent Relief has a FAR greater national impact on persons mobility......if you are poor and live at home then **** off back there even if there are no jobs where your home is . This regulation may be phrased in the first or second national languages but has the same impact in either .

Bad as the improperly enforced rules in Galway gaeltacht areas may appear to be on first reading they pale into insignificance as compared to the rules they have in Wickila `to keep the Dubs out (or to move the Dubs and the caravans down to Wexford in an orderly manner) . Yet I see no mention of Wickila here

M

ReefBreak

Originally posted by klaz
oh come on. People are seeming to take this to extremes. freedom of movement is a farce. Its a lovely Idea, but its not currently in force. Can you honestly tell me that you are able to visit any part of the EU without some restriction being in place?

Is there any other area in the EU where you are restricted from buying property because you can't speak the language? This is not sarcasm, but an actual question.

The people who are complaining about this are complaining for the sake of complaining. It doesn't have any affect on them. If any of the posters here can tell me that they'd honestly consider Spiddeal for their house, (and they're willing to pay 300k to buy it), I'll withdraw my objection to these complaints, but, until I do see someone claiming this, I'll consider this to be scare-mongering (or seeking trouble) for its own sake.

Bit of a moot point really. Plenty of the topics that we discuss here on boards.ie/politics don't affect us directly. But this issue could affect people here. It could certainly affect me, because Galway is a city that I (genuinely) may want to live in for a while in the future.

spongebob

Spiddal is not in Galway city, it is 10 miles away , you are probably thinking of living in Knocknacarra

M

Spiddal is not in Galway city, it is 10 miles away , you are probably thinking of living in Knocknacarra

Or Barna?

Bit of a moot point really. Plenty of the topics that we discuss here on boards.ie/politics don't affect us directly. But this issue could affect people here. It could certainly affect me, because Galway is a city that I (genuinely) may want to live in for a while in the future

Fair enough. However, I do think people are scaremongering over this issue. The Gaelteacht areas have been receiving aid for speaking Irish for years and I haven't seen too many people complaining about discrimination, since they're not receiving the same grants. Odd that its only when actual property comes into the equation, that discrimination becomes an issue. My family is from West Galway. I have relations in and around Cliften and Oughterard. I hope one day to have a house there. Actually, the house that my family has for generations is located near there. My Irish has almost disappeared. But I understand that if i wish to live in an all irish area, I should be able to speak Irish. Just as I'd learn German, if I wanted to live in Mannheim (near Frankfurt).

Is there any other area in the EU where you are restricted from buying property because you can't speak the language? This is not sarcasm, but an actual question.

I have no Idea.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by klaz
I do think people are scaremongering over this issue.

Just to be clear, I acknowledge that this is really just a barrier in principle and I have already said that on balance Galway County Council should be allowed to follow its own lights. The most directly impacted people will be others in Galway, and they can let their views be known to their local Councillors.

But, addressing the question posed at the start of this thread, their policy would seem to conflict with our EU requirements and this has to weigh against any more general application of this kind of principle.

I’d expect that a practical requirement to live in Germany would be to speak the language. But to live in Ireland, even in areas deemed to be Gaeltacht, Irish speaking is not a practical requirement. This imposition is a cultural thing. The German equivalent might be a requirement that you can recite chunks out of Goethe.

Originally posted by klaz
The Gaelteacht areas have been receiving aid for speaking Irish for years and I haven't seen too many people complaining about discrimination, since they're not receiving the same grants.

True, but people must inevitably point out that this policy has not preserved the language in those areas, and many beneficiaries of these resources are not actually Irish speakers.