Willy O'Dea's reply to Sinn Féin criticism

ReefBreak

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1213200&issue_id=11122

I like his response. Of real interest are his quotes from the Shinner's Eire Nua document:
- "There would be an upper limit to the size of any private enterprise. Anything above this limit will come under community or co-operative ownership."
Do the people that vote SF/IRA actually know what they're voting for?

"Only resident citizens of the republic will be allowed to own, purchase or lease land within Ireland." Hello Sinn Féin, goodbye inward investment.

The rest of the article details why Sinn Féin are no too dissimilar to the Nazis. Well done Willy O'Dea, more please.

Like I said before: Sinn Féin = The Irish Nazi Party.

swiss

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1213200&issue_id=11122

I know I should probably register to see these links that people cite, but it is still preferable to quote an article if registration is required to view it.

Do the people that vote SF/IRA actually know what they're voting for?

This is something I've wondered quite often. Personally I'm not in favour of SF's economic policies. I would be in favour of a more socialist orientated system of government, but I feel such reforms as these go too far. Nevertheless, I would not berate anyone who voted for SF on the strength of these policies. I would however, point out that there are... other... areas of SF policy with which I would have a significantly larger problem.

That said, does anyone really know what they're voting for when they vote for a party. If you vote FF for example, can you detail all of their party policies accurately?

Again, please quote the article if possible. Where are Willie O'Dea's sources (unless they are published SF policy)?

cruiserweight

I read the article and here it is in full for those of you who are not registered to unison(it is free anyway)

Germans did not fear Nazis then either

LAST Sunday this paper revealed that I had been approached by a number of business professionals in the mid-west who are concerned at the rise of Sinn Fein. Since then, I have been subjected to a barrage of attacks from Sinn Fein - which demonstrates that my observations have hit a nerve.

The problem identified by those concerned by Sinn Fein's recent successes is twofold: One is the nature of the organisation itself and its retention of a private army, the other relates to its visionfor Ireland.

Taking the second point first, it is a wholly legitimate question to ask what economic model Sinn Fein would like to see operate on this island. Their manifestos contain bland statements on equality and enterprise and standard calls for greater spending. But what are the guiding principles underpinning them?

One has to go back to Sinn Fein's Eire Nua document to find any. In the Basic Principles section of that document, they say: "There would be an upper limit to the size of any private enterprise. Anything above this limit will come under community or co-operative ownership". This enlightened document also contains this visionary and encompassing commitment that: "Only resident citizens of the republic will be allowed to own, purchase or lease land within Ireland."

And Sinn Fein wonders why people would fear for the future of inward investment?

Are these still their basic principles? Many of their workers seem to think so. Last week Mary Lou McDonald was calling for an increase in corporation tax - a few days later, Caoimhghin O Caolain was denying it was their policy. Which is it?

Sinn Fein claims that I can't accuse them of having policies that are at the same time detrimental and non-specific. Yes I can. I accuse them of economic doublespeak. On the doorsteps their canvassers may adopt a "whatever you're having yourself" response to policy queries, but this masks the core principles.

If Sinn Fein still adheres to the national socialist vision set out in the Seventies, let it say so clearly, rather than trying to introduce it by stealth. This national socialist vision coupled with a private army raises the issue of the nature of the organisation itself. One has only to look back to the early part of the last century to see a similar type organisation. Nationalist socialism combined with a private army has dark reverberations.

Why does Sinn Fein retain a private army? Probably for the same reason another national socialist party required one: for the purposes of increasingly less subtle intimidation and menace.

In Twenties, many Germans felt the rise of national socialism was something the body politic could deal with. In 1927, after the Nazis enjoyed a similar election result to Sinn Fein's recent one, the Weimar Minister for the Interior dismissed them as "a numerically insignificant radical revolutionary splinter group incapable of exerting any noticeable influence on the course of political events". Six year later they were in power.

There are similar echoes in today's Ireland. Commentators will devote thousands of words to why my arguments here are alarmist. So did many in the Weimar Republic. If they want to know how Sinn Fein operates at close quarters, let them talk to the SDLP.

Sinn Fein activists will react in horror to any comparisons between their behaviour and the events in Thirties Germany. I don't claim they are pursuing the same hateful policies as the Nazis, but they do employ similar operational techniques.

The undermining of public confidence in State institutions is one. Witness Sinn Fein's ongoing refusal to urge co-operation with the Garda/PSNI investigation of the Omagh bombing. Sinn Fein may be against crime, but only if it does not require them to support the police.

We have all sought to bring Sinn Fein from the paramilitary world into the political one. This was the right thing to do, even though we have effectively raised a cuckoo in our midst. Sinn Fein's reluctance to take the final step into the political world by disavowing their associates in the paramilitary world is not something we can tolerate.

This is the time to expose Sinn Fein's doublespeak and hypocrisy. This is the time to take them on politically. The lessons of history show that waiting is not an option.

Willie O'Dea is Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality & LawReform.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

jmcc

Originally posted by ReefBreak
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1213200&issue_id=11122

I like his response. Of real interest are his quotes from the Shinner's Eire Nua document:
- "There would be an upper limit to the size of any private enterprise. Anything above this limit will come under community or co-operative ownership."
Do the people that vote SF/IRA actually know what they're voting for?

So explain just what Eircom's ESOT is again.

I don't follow the activities of SF or any party closely but wasn't the Eire Nua document a SF document from the 1970s?

Like I said before: Sinn Féin = The Irish Nazi Party.

You seem to be extraordinarily gullible to believe that this is anything other than showboating by O'Dea. His historical analysis is dubious at best. FF is in serious trouble as the government has become more right wing due to the influence of the PDs. Consequently, FF is losing a lot of what was its core working class vote in some areas to SF. It is this incursion on FF territory that worries O'Dea and FF. I seem to recall some people claiming that SF would join the Communist bloc in the European parliament. However that is somewhat at odds with the idea that they are a Nazi party.

As for undermining confidence in State institutions, Ray Burke, a former FF minister was up in court for fraudulent tax returns. People are sick and tired of hearing about scum in banks ripping off people, scum in politics and their brown envelopes. Corruption in Irish society goes a lot deeper and SF provides a nice scapegoat for people like O'Dea to present as being some threat in the future.

Regards...jmcc

Villain

Originally posted by jmcc
I don't follow the activities of SF or any party closely but wasn't the Eire Nua document a SF document from the 1970s?

Yes it does, although it has been updated a few times, not sure what version Mr O'Dea was using.

Originally posted by jmcc
You seem to be extraordinarily gullible to believe that this is anything other than showboating by O'Dea. His historical analysis is dubious at best. FF is in serious trouble as the government has become more right wing due to the influence of the PDs. Consequently, FF is losing a lot of what was its core working class vote in some areas to SF. It is this incursion on FF territory that worries O'Dea and FF. I seem to recall some people claiming that SF would join the Communist bloc in the European parliament. However that is somewhat at odds with the idea that they are a Nazi party.

As for undermining confidence in State institutions, Ray Burke, a former FF minister was up in court for fraudulent tax returns. People are sick and tired of hearing about scum in banks ripping off people, scum in politics and their brown envelopes. Corruption in Irish society goes a lot deeper and SF provides a nice scapegoat for people like O'Dea to present as being some threat in the future.

Regards...jmcc

Excellent points.

If Mr O'Dea wants to go back to the 70's maybe he should look at who was Minister for Justice!!! and what he has pleaded guilty to. FF shouldn't be throwing stones in glasshouses.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Do the people that vote SF/IRA actually know what they're voting for?

No, of course not. Anyone who disagrees with you is obviously incapable of making an informed choice :rolleyes:

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Like I said before: Sinn Féin = The Irish Nazi Party.

Nazi...Communist...Nazi...Communist....
make up your mind

Originally posted by jmcc
I don't follow the activities of SF or any party closely but wasn't the Eire Nua document a SF document from the 1970s?

Yes, and Republican Sinn Fein are still harping on about it to this day. I agree with your other points btw.

Irish04

Sinn Féin did indeed drop the Éire nua policy. Republican Sinn Féin believe that it is possible to implement Éire Nua however Sinn Féin do not

And how people can compare Sinn Féin to the NAZIs is actually quite sad. The fact that the NAZIs followed Right Wing Policies and Sinn Féin follow Left Wing Policies is just one of the many, many differences between the two

The PDs and McDowell are the only Party on this isle that remotely come close to being NAZI. Roll on the next election where the PDs will hopefully have 0,1,2 or 3 seats. They Suck



Vótáil Sinn Féin

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Irish04
Sinn Féin did indeed drop the Éire nua policy. Republican Sinn Féin believe that it is possible to implement Éire Nua however Sinn Féin do not

And how people can compare Sinn Féin to the NAZIs is actually quite sad. The fact that the NAZIs followed Right Wing Policies and Sinn Féin follow Left Wing Policies is just one of the many, many differences between the two

NAZI stood for Nationalist Socialist. Remind you of anyone? Plus, like Sinn Féin/IRA, they had a habit of murdering people that didn't agree with their views. Not to mention the fact that they had people (such as Sean Russell) that allied themselves to the Nazis during WWII, and actively sought their help.

The PDs and McDowell are the only Party on this isle that remotely come close to being NAZI. Roll on the next election where the PDs will hopefully have 0,1,2 or 3 seats. They Suck

"They suck." Marvellous analysis of the situation there. Please explain why the PDs are like the NAZIs. The PDs like to murder Jews? Perhaps the NAZIs had a low taxation policy that promoted investment and enterprise? Wasn't it Sinn Féin that actively sought the explusion of Jews from Ireland in the earlier part of this century.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Sinn Féin/IRA, they had a habit of murdering people that didn't agree with their views.

SF murdered who, can you please provide links to back that claim???

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
SF murdered who, can you please provide links to back that claim???

Like I and many others have said before, IRA and Sinn Féin are inextricably linked right up to the top levels of the organisation. Members of Sinn Féin have murdered people. You know it, I know it. Yet you still insist on voting for them.

edit: I can provide plenty on who and how many people were murdered by SF/IRA members.

Hobbes

Originally posted by daveirl
For those sites that require registration check out http://bugmenot.com

There are plugins for your browser there also.

I was going to suggest that as well. Bugmenot plugin for firebird has to be one of the best ever.

Back on topic...

All I have to say is, the government are bringing it on themselves. If you don't want SF voted in then don't be such a shower of corruptable SOB's (alledgly).

Reefbreak if you have any such proof of current members of SF killing people please post it.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Hobbes
Reefbreak if you have any such proof of current members of SF killing people please post it.

Former prisoners that were released under the GFA that are now members of the SF. Considering the thousands of people that were murdered by the IRA, I'm sure there's more than a few. I'll try and find a few names.

Paladin

Sinn Fein saying that they are not the IRA reminds me of the Monty Python Parrot sketch.

"Its not dead. Its just resting."

I wonder if a single Sinn Fein supporter really believes the propaganda that Sinn Fein are not really made up of IRA members (honest!).

Not a single sinn fein member can ever admit the parrot is dead, despite it starting to decompose.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Members of Sinn Féin have murdered people. You know it, I know it.

Link please?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
Link please?

Sinn Féin(edit: 's political wing, the IRA,) murdered over 1800 people since 1969. Do you honestly believe that not one of those murderers is not now a member of Sinn Féin. Yes or No? The best example I can give is the Balcomb Street Gang.

"The Balcombe Street gang include Sinn Féin vice-president Pat Doherty's brother, Hugh; Martin O'Connell (47) from Ennis, Co. Clare; his fellow countyman Harry Duggan(46) and Limerickman Eddie Butler (50)." Is Pat Doherty's brother a member of Sinn Fein? If he is, then Sinn Féin have murderers as their members.

From http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0%2C3604%2C309616%2C00.html
"The gang's activities had intensified in the previous five months, following the breakdown of a long IRA ceasefire. The four men were convicted of eight killings and up to 50 bombings and shootings in public areas. Among those they murdered was father-of-four Gordon Hamilton-Fairley, a professor and cancer expert, who worked at St Bartholomew's hospital. He was killed by a car bomb in October 1975.

They also shot dead Ross McWhirter, the television personality and co-founder of the Guinness Book of World Rec-ords, at his home in Enfield, north London. He had offered a £50,000 reward for their capture. "
...Yet you're twisted political opinions mean that you continue to vote for them. Sinn Féin/IRA and their supporters may prefer that we forget what they did ("don't look to the past!"), but the rest of us would prefer that the murdered werer never forgetten. Forgetting it will only open the door to bring it all back again.

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
but the rest of us would prefer that the murdered werer never forgetten.

Really?

Thanks for deciding what my position on that is Reef and speaking for me. Appreciate it.

I was going to say something different, but apparently I prefer that the murdered were never forgotten.....

jc

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Sinn Féin murdered over 1800 people since 1969.

Really??? Link Please

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
Really??? Link Please

Apologies, that was a typo. I actually meant: Sinn Féin's terrorist wing, the IRA, murdered over 1800 people since 1969.

ReefBreak

So I'll ask you again:

Sinn Féin terrorist wing, the IRA, murdered over 1800 people since 1969. Do you honestly believe that not one of those murderers is not now a member of Sinn Féin. Yes or No? The best example I can give is the Balcomb Street Gang.

"The Balcombe Street gang include Sinn Féin vice-president Pat Doherty's brother, Hugh; Martin O'Connell (47) from Ennis, Co. Clare; his fellow countyman Harry Duggan(46) and Limerickman Eddie Butler (50)." Is Pat Doherty's brother a member of Sinn Fein? If he is, then Sinn Féin have murderers as their members. "

Etc...

Mighty_Mouse

Do you honestly believe that not one of those murderers is not now a member of Sinn Féin.

wow! Now that its in bold? This is an annoying old trick of yours where its a case of guilty until proven innocent. If you want to make a point that your little knowledge of northern ireland cannot proove i suggest your think before you post in future!!
Oh! And another old trick of posting cases of IRA murders? Whats that all about? Do we really need to go hurt for hurt, attrocity for attrocity here?

I wonder if a single Sinn Fein supporter really believes the propaganda that Sinn Fein are not really made up of IRA members

What propaganda that Sinn Fein doesn't have ex-IRA members? Personally I've never heard any such statement. But if your asking if every single member of Sinn Fein was a member of the IRA.............then your raving man!!

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
wow! Now that its in bold? This is an annoying old trick of yours where its a case of guilty until proven innocent. If you want to make a point that your little knowledge of northern ireland cannot proove i suggest your think before you post in future!!
Oh! And another old trick of posting cases of IRA murders? Whats that all about? Do we really need to go hurt for hurt, attrocity for attrocity here?

Followed by the Sinn Féin technique of ignoring the difficult questions by diverting the answer. Do you hosestly believe that not one single IRA murderer is not now a member of Sinn Féin. If you do, then you're even more naive than I thought.

Mighty_Mouse

Sinn Féin murdered over 1800 people since 1969

Do you hosestly believe that not one single IRA murderer is not now a member of Sinn Féin. If you do, then you're even more naive than I thought.

But you are making the point here Reefbreak!!! You tell me whether they have or not (I'm even tempted to help you here!) It shouldl be an easy enough thing to find out surely?

bus77

Originally posted by ReefBreak
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1213200&issue_id=11122

I like his response. Of real interest are his quotes from the Shinner's Eire Nua document:
- "There would be an upper limit to the size of any private enterprise. Anything above this limit will come under community or co-operative ownership."

I'm not an economics expert but isnt that similar to the way large companys are encoraged(by the system) to "go public" ie.on the stock market?

Meh

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Oh! And another old trick of posting cases of IRA murders? Whats that all about? Do we really need to go hurt for hurt, attrocity for attrocity here?

Well, if you can point out any murders that Willie O'Dea or his colleagues/associates in Fianna Fáil are guilty of, then you're welcome to do so. Until then, the high moral ground belongs to FF (for once).

ionapaul

bus77, I don't think Sinn Fein mean that such large companies would be forced public on the stock exchange! I am sure they mean something more akin to state-ownership or control...like the economic model that was so spectacularly unsuccessful in Soviet Russia.

Hobbes

Originally posted by ReefBreak

Sinn Féin terrorist wing, the IRA, murdered over 1800 people since 1969. Do you honestly believe that not one of those murderers is not now a member of Sinn Féin. Yes or No? The best example I can give is the Balcomb Street Gang.

Compared to other parties in the north? What is your point?

Also look at the number of attacks in the North since the good Friday agreement. How many are linked to the IRA?

Your point is you are saying SF and the IRA are the same thing. By that logic of thinking all the loyalist parties are just as bad, as well as the British.

Sinn Féin murdered over 1800 people since 1969

Figures are subjective. You pick since 1969, why not pick from 1998 when hostilities stopped?

Btw, the Irish government (FF) were terrorists one time, or did you forget that? Bare in mind I am following your logic that anyone who joins a party becomes a terrorist.

Villain

Originally posted by Meh
Well, if you can point out any murders that Willie O'Dea or his colleagues/associates in Fianna Fáil are guilty of, then you're welcome to do so. Until then, the high moral ground belongs to FF (for once).

But he hasn't pointed out any membes of SF who are murderers.

Anyway this thread has gobe off topic yet again because people can't stick to topics they simply want to bash SF.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
But he hasn't pointed out any membes of SF who are murderers.

Raymond McCartney is a convicted murderer.

"Mr McCartney, a former IRA commanding officer in the Maze, was jailed for killing English businessman Jeffrey Agate in Derry in February 1977. "
...from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/northern_ireland/2236997.stm

Happy?

(Sinn Féin Chairman) Pat Doherty's brother Hugh, was a member of the murderous Balcombe Street Gang. I would be very surprised if he is not also a member of Sinn Fein.

Mighty_Mouse

Raymond McCartney is a convicted murderer.

God help ya! You took your time with it!! lol. I was very neary gonna help you but I suppose it boils down to a big: SO WHAT!!! Whats the point here reefbreak?? Has someone denied that people were murdered in the Troubles and that those communities involved have now turned to a political struggle?

Are we saying that Dev, Collins etc should'nt of been allowed into the first Irish government?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
God help ya! You took your time with it!! lol. I was very neary gonna help you but I suppose it boils down to a big: SO WHAT!!! Whats the point here reefbreak?? Has someone denied that people were murdered in the Troubles and that those communities involved have now turned to a political struggle?

Are we saying that Dev, Collins etc should'nt of been allowed into the first Irish government?

Oh, for crying out loud. With all due respect, your style of writing/spelling/texting makes me feel like I'm arguing with a 15 year-old (ironic considering your signature). But that's beside the point. What do you mean, "what's the point?".. Irish1 asked me for a link that members of Sinn Féin were murderers. I provided a link, which didn't take me very long by the way. As for Dev, Collins, etc, I wouldn't have voted for them if I thought they had murdered anyone.

Which brings me to Sinn Fein debating technique #3: Use the past to justify the present. Highly ironic considering Sinn Fein debating technique #4: request everyone to forget the past when discussing recent IRA atrocities. Even more ironic when you think of Sinn Fein debating technique #5: Use every opportunity to remind people about the murderous acts committed by the loyalist paramilitaries, and demand inquiries into them where it suits.

Hobbes

Originally posted by ReefBreak

(Sinn Féin Chairman) Pat Doherty's brother Hugh, was a member of the murderous Balcombe Street Gang. I would be very surprised if he is not also a member of Sinn Fein.

He isn't. He might vote for them though, but last time I checked that didn't make the people in the party terrorists.

request everyone to forget the past when discussing recent IRA atrocities.

Funny how you forget them as well, or do you think the IRA operated on their own and no one else had anything to do with deaths.

Even more ironic when you think of Sinn Fein debating technique #5: Use every opportunity to remind people about the murderous acts committed by the loyalist paramilitaries, and demand inquiries into them where it suits.

Why not? List off all the people who were released with the good friday agreement (on both sides). Then tell me where they all went.

You have listed one person, but you are claiming all of them are terrorists.

Btw, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are Sinn Fein.

O'Deas news article (if you can call it that) is scaremongering based on dated information.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Raymond McCartney is a convicted murderer.

Ok so now you have provided 1 member who was convicted of murder and has now turned to politics, does that make Sinn Fein terrorists???

If you believe that then maybe your the 15 year old here, Ray Burke has pleaded guilty to charges which make him corrupt, are FF as a party corrupt???, I don't think so.

jmcc

Originally posted by ReefBreak
NAZI stood for Nationalist Socialist. Remind you of anyone? Plus, like Sinn Féin/IRA, they had a habit of murdering people that didn't agree with their views. Not to mention the fact that they had people (such as Sean Russell) that allied themselves to the Nazis during WWII, and actively sought their help.

Your knowledge of history seems to be right up there with O'Dea's. The Communists also had their own private army and were killing people who didn't agree with their outlook too. The whole period was a situation were a number of groups were jockeying for power in Germany. Merely mentioning the word "Nazi" and asking if it reminds someone of SF because it is a composite of the words Nationalist and Socialist is extraordinarily dubious logic.

"They suck." Marvellous analysis of the situation there. Please explain why the PDs are like the NAZIs.

This is not from my post. However the PDs are more right wing (just like the Nazis) than left wing (like the Communists). You could even get into extremist territory and argue that McDowell's Referendum was racist just like the Nazis and their restriction of citizenship under the Nuremburg laws. But perhaps that is going a bit too far because it is a completely different set of circumstances.

But perhaps the biggest giveaway to your O'Dea like grasp of history is this:

Wasn't it Sinn Féin that actively sought the explusion of Jews from Ireland in the earlier part of this century.

If you are going to argue about historical matters, the least you could do is to get the century right.

Regards...jmcc

ReefBreak

Originally posted by jmcc

But perhaps the biggest giveaway to your O'Dea like grasp of history is this: If you are going to argue about historical matters, the least you could do is to get the century right.

Regards...jmcc

More pedantic arguing based on a typo. Obviously I meant to type "the earlier part of the last century", but I'll assume you knew that.

Originally posted by irish1
are FF as a party corrupt???, I don't think so.

LoL
I never thought I'd see the day when you'd post that!
Can I add it to my signiture

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
LoL
I never thought I'd see the day when you'd post that!
Can I add it to my signiture

lol, of course you can!

ionapaul

Originally posted by irish1
Ok so now you have provided 1 member who was convicted of murder and has now turned to politics, does that make Sinn Fein terrorists???

If he provided 10 members, would that make any difference to any of us? We have all got our opinions on Sinn Fein and it doesn't seem like we are going to change them People see Haughey's actions during the 70s and 80s and call him corrupt today, others see Sinn Fein and IRA actions from the 60s to the present and call that as we see it.

Mighty_Mouse

Ok, Once again I'm forced to slowly break it down for you Reefbreak! Your origional post stated:

Like I and many others have said before, IRA and Sinn Féin are inextricably linked right up to the top levels of the organisation. Members of Sinn Féin have murdered people. You know it, I know it. Yet you still insist on voting for them.

To which irish asked for some details or corrected you and asking you to distinguish between the IRA and Sinn Fein. The question still remains

SO WHAT!!! Whats the point here reefbreak?? Has someone denied that people were murdered in the Troubles and that those communities involved have now turned to a political struggle?

To which you responded:

Irish1 asked me for a link that members of Sinn Féin were murderers. I provided a link, which didn't take me very long by the way.

Mmmmm!! See if you can figure out where you once again lost track on logic and slipped your Doctor Ian hat on!

like I'm arguing with a 15 year-old

I've really been resisting the urge to say the same to you!;)

As for Dev, Collins, etc, I wouldn't have voted for them if I thought they had murdered anyone.

Rrrrright! So you would of ....... (War of Independance/Civil War - not too many politicians without blood on their hands) .... formed an alliance party or something? Do you always completely refuse to accept reality?

Sinn Fein debating technique #3: Use the past to justify the present

Another self-made logical rule from Reffer! Everything is the past FFS!!!! So yesterdays rioting is the past!! Which means you can use it to justify any animosity towards Sinn Fein!!lol;)

debating technique #4: request everyone to forget the past when discussing recent IRA atrocities.

I don't remember this ever been used. Do you think your bitterness is starting to cloud your vision a little again Reefbreak?At the most Sinn Fein asks that all communities be treated equally, me thinks!

#5: Use every opportunity to remind people about the murderous acts committed by the loyalist paramilitaries, and demand inquiries into them where it suits

Loyalist murderes didn't happen? Again another "whats the point" arises! Enquires.....don't think Sinn Fein has opposed the rights of loyalists to call for similar enquires. King Rat for example

People see Haughey's actions during the 70s and 80s and call him corrupt today, others see Sinn Fein and IRA actions from the 60s to the present and call that as we see it

People like willie o dea by any chance?

Tommy Vercetti

I'm pretty sure that members of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael were involved in The War of Independence and the Civil War. Reefbreak, are you excusing them for being responsible for the deaths of people, or was that ok?

Is it ok for members of Unionist/Loyalist parties, and the Orange Order to be members of Loyalist death squads (who are still operating to this day)? Why no outcry about that?

Also, the Queen of England and British Government are responsible for murdering people in Ireland for a long, long time through her army. Why have you failed to mention this?

Some of us have moved on from the past, we don't feel the need to drag it up when our argument requires it. And I'm saying that as someone who has lost family members to some of the above organisations. If people choose to vote for Sinn Féin (or any other party - north and south), then that is their democratic right. If some of the more traditional parties are losing voters in their droves, perhaps they should be taking a look at the reasons why this is happening instead of going to the media with hysterical, and often dubious, claims about their political opponents.

ionapaul

It is your democratic right to vote for whomever you want - but voting for that party doesn't mean you are upholding democratic ideals or anything! Lots of Germans voted for the Nazi party during the 30s - that was their democratic right. People in England vote for the BNP - that is their democratic right. I suppose that is the big problem with democracy, it can be fairly easily undermined by the undemocratic! It is a truism that you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time

None of the above has anything to do with Willie O'Dea, so I apologise for being off-topic.

ionapaul

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Is it ok for members of Unionist/Loyalist parties, and the Orange Order to be members of Loyalist death squads (who are still operating to this day)? Why no outcry about that?

Also, the Queen of England and British Government are responsible for murdering people in Ireland for a long, long time through her army. Why have you failed to mention this?

Hand on heart, I promise never, EVER, to vote for political parties representing:
a) Ulster loyalists
b) The Orange Order
c) The Queen of England
b) The British Army

sceptre

Originally posted by ionapaul
Hand on heart, I promise never, EVER, to vote for political parties representing:
a) Ulster loyalists
b) The Orange Order
c) The Queen of England
b) The British Army

Better watch for those political parties representing the last two. That Queen gets some mad ideas sometimes with the Queen for Life Party. And she's planning on handing over power to her big earred hippy son when she shuffles off her mortal coil.

Sand

To which irish asked for some details or corrected you and asking you to distinguish between the IRA and Sinn Fein. The question still remains

Ive seen this time and time again, the wilful ignorance and refusal to see the truth. Lets go to www.sinnfein.ie and check out their leadership page.

In advance Ill state it clearly to be very fair- there are two strands to the SF party. There is the Northern old Guard which are running the show and have dictated SFs direction since the 1980s when they convinced their IRA comrades of the merits of the ballot box strategy.

There is a the second "new" SF whose members are young, highly motivated and not identifiably IRA members. They are cut from the same cloth as their new found supporters in the south in that they can overlook their parties symbiotic relationship with the IRA and their colleagues past, present and future.

Lets run down the list of SF/IRA members.

Gerry Adams, President:
Convicted IRA bomber Dolours Price, described Gerry Adams as her commanding officer at the time of her involvement in a 4 car bomb on London, March 8th, 1973 at a republican event in February 2001 – Irish Echo Newspaper Corp, March 2001.

His father was a IRA member convicted for shooting RUC officers.

He was interned in 1971, but was senior enough in some republican organisation to be released in July 1972 to take part in secret talks between the IRA and NI Secretary Whitelaw. He was 23 years old. He did not become president of SF for another 11 years.

Has refused to confirm or deny his IRA membership, claiming he could get 10 years for it.

Joe Cahill, Honorary Vice President:

Self confessed IRA member. Sentenced to death for murdering a RUC man, commuted to life, released after 7 years under an amnesty program.

Commander of the Provisional IRA in west Belfast during the 1970s. Arrested in 1973 for smuggling arms into Ireland on board the Claudia.

Founded Irish Northern Aid in the US to get funds for the IRA murders.

Pat Doherty, Vice President:

Born in Glasgow, Nicknamed Papa Doc, His brother was a member of the IRA Balcombe Street Gang. Identified by police intelligence to be a member of the PIRA army council, which he has always denied.

Mitchel McLaughlin, Chairperson:

A friend of McGuiness’ from back in the days when they were hurling petrol bombs in Derry 1969. As leader of SF in Derry he’s gone on record at the Bloody Sunday inquiry as never asking his colleague McGuiness what he was doing as part of the IRA delegation for the 1972 talks. Presumably he never asked Gerry Adams either. He is clearly the prototype of SFs new wave of supporters – either very stupid, or very naïve.

Despite this he is one of the more respectable faces of SFs leadership – has even gone on record as claiming that SF want to get rid of the IRA. May want to include the disclaimer: sometime, in the undefined future.

Gerry Kelly, Belfast:
Given life sentence in 1973 for killing 1 person and injuring 250 in bomb attacks in England.

Escaped from the maze prison in 1983, one prison warder died after being stabbed with a chisel. Kelly shot another in the head. Escaped to Amsterdam where he was recaptured in 1986. His flat contained cash, fake passport, maps and the keys to a container that held 14 rifles, 100,000 rounds of ammunition and about a ton of nitro-benzine.

Has spent 19 years in prison. Served only a short sentence after his extradition from Holland due to conditions on the extradition.

Has stated he has no regrets about the death of the prison officer who died during the escape from the Maze.

Martin McGuiness, Derry:
2nd in command of the IRA in Derry from the early 70s. Travelled as part of the IRA delegation that secretly met with NI secretary Whitelaw in 1972.

Imprisoned several times in the Republic in connection with IRA activities but has always denied he ever became Chief of Staff for the IRA, despite many claims to the contrary. Renowned for promising informers who had fled IRA threats that they would be safe if they returned and had a little chat with the boys.

Persuaded Frank Hegartys mother to get him home to Belfast with a promise of safety – within two weeks he was abducted, tortured, murdered and dumped in Castlederg, Country Tyrone.

Francie Molloy, Tyrone:
Stated on November 22nd 1998 at an address to Cullyhana republican , that ‘negotiations is simply another phase in that [republican] struggle’ and if the IRA did not get what they wanted at the talks ‘we simply go back to what we know best’

Note that its him saying we, not me. He may need to receive further education in Sfspeak and brush up on his naivety before he’s allowed to speak in public again.

Arnie O'Connell, Cork:

Served 18 years in Portlaoise for the murder of Eamonn Ryan, during a bank robbery in Waterford, 1979. Also charged with membership of the PIRA and armed robbery arising from the same incident.

At the commemoration of Hugh Hehir in 1997, a fellow IRA man shot dead by Garda Special Branch in 1988, he stated that there will be no decommissioning until the British leave Ireland.

Martin Ferris, Kerry:
Convicted of gun running, IRA membership and assault.







Okay, a lot of reading there because theres a lot of heavily suspected and convicted IRA murderers who are now high ranking members of Sinn Fein and form their leadership.

Now lets not be as stupid or as innocent as the average SF voter - when it walks like duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....its is a ****ing duck. Ive copied and saved the above into a word file so every time I hear the "oh but how do you know SF and the IRA are one and the same!??!?!?!?" then Ill be able to paste it for the education of teenage IRA fan boys everywhere.

Are a lot of Irish parties historically linked to militant movements - yes, in their *past*. That is not the case with SF - the IRA is very much a part of SFs *present and future*.

That is the problem - this is not the 1920s. Were not turning back the clock for SF/IRA because theyre not ready to catch up with the rest of the civillised world. They have to match the standards of 21st century democracy, not the early 19th. Whatever about corruption in politics, private armies and crinimal thugs are a definite no-no.

I will "bash" them again and again and again until they cut all links to the IRA or the IRA disbands, whichever occurs first because I do not want a terrorist movement in Government or in the Dail.

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
Now lets not be as stupid or as innocent as the average SF voter - when it walks like duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....its is a ****ing duck. Ive copied and saved the above into a word file so every time I hear the "oh but how do you know SF and the IRA are one and the same!??!?!?!?" then Ill be able to paste it for the education of teenage IRA fan boys everywhere.

Don't you mean SF fan boys ....

And as I think Martin McGuiness said "dogs on the street know...."

Villain

Originally posted by Sand
Now lets not be as stupid or as innocent as the average SF voter - when it walks like duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....its is a ****ing duck.

I find that offensive and demand you withdraw it, insulting people is the lowest form of debating.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by irish1
I find that offensive and demand you withdraw it, insulting people is the lowest form of debating.

Well you did ask...
There appears to be so much shít in and around the Sinn Féin Fan , maybe you shouldn't have turned it on...


I don't see any poster insulted there, just maybe Sinn Féin voters who are prepared to ignore what sand has posted...( just like some FF Voters ignore some things ) and then no more so that I'd see Fianna Fáil insulted as a party on an almost daily basis here or any other party for that matter.

To put it another way " whats the matter honey-is the kitchen getting too hot for you? "

Villain

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Well you did ask...
There appears to be so much shít in and around the Sinn Féin Fan , maybe you shouldn't have turned it on...


I don't see any poster insulted there, just maybe Sinn Féin voters who are prepared to ignore what sand has posted...( just like some FF Voters ignore some things ) and then no more so that I'd see Fianna Fáil insulted as a party on an almost daily basis here or any other party for that matter.

To put it another way " whats the matter honey-is the kitchen getting too hot for you? "

So you believe Sand's post shows that the IRA and Sinn Fein are the one organisation??? and that Sinn Fein are terrorists???

I'm well able for the heat, however I'm also able to argue my points without insulting people, unlike others.

ReefBreak

Excellent post by Sand. I can't believe that I forgot state to Irish1 that Martin McGuinness has actually admitted to membership of the IRA in the past. Ditto with Gerry Kelly and Joe Cahill. Sometimes you miss the wood, when you're looking for the trees (or in this case a few links to prove my point).

Mighty_Mouse

To which irish asked for some details or corrected you and asking you to distinguish between the IRA and Sinn Fein. The question still remains

You've quoted me out of context there Sand but don't lose sleep over it your post still remains valid enough.

then Ill be able to paste it for the education of teenage IRA fan boys everywhere.

Now lets not be as stupid or as innocent as the average SF voter

I often find myself asking why anti-republicans resort to bitterness and abuse when trying to convince people of their points!! I mean if you were to remain civil every now and then maybe somebody might even listen to you!!!

I will "bash" them again and again and again until they cut all links to the IRA or the IRA disbands,

Wow! Where have you been for the last 30 years Sand. Thats all the norths problems solved right there!!

Are a lot of Irish parties historically linked to militant movements - yes, in their *past*. That is not the case with SF - the IRA is very much a part of SFs *present and future*.

So Fianna Fail didn't have links with terrorism in their "present" when they moved into government?

Ive seen this time and time again, the wilful ignorance and refusal to see the truth

I constantly shocked by the nievity of anti-republicans! Sand, your post is lovely.... (if you throw enough muck?)... but I have to wonder who exactly do you think your shocking?"Stupid Sinn Fein" voters know the links with the IRA I presume! But at the same time they accept the commitment of the IRA to peaceful means and the policies of Sinn Fein in their political role.

I always have to smile as anti-republicans slap down their accusations and truths with fiercesome morality only for a republicans to say "sure we know ya eegit!", "but were happy with Sinn Feins current role in the north and south".

I find that offensive and demand you withdraw it, insulting people is the lowest form of debating.

Your looking for people to "withdraw things again Irish!! I think if your offended by something... take it to a mod.

Excellent post by Sand. I can't believe that I forgot state to Irish1 that Martin McGuinness has actually admitted to membership of the IRA in the past. Ditto with Gerry Kelly and Joe Cahill. Sometimes you miss the wood, when you're looking for the trees (or in this case a few links to prove my point).

You forgot!!! lol lol!! But even if you remembered..........so what! I mean are people shocked by the fact that these men are now committed to peaceful means? Or should we never move on to stabilise the northern situation and incorporate all members of society into the political process?

Sorry I almost forgot to say something on the different organisations argument! Is Sand saying that Sinn Fein "control" the IRA or that they have influence due to their links? The latter has never been debatable.

On a final note...am I the only person here who actually knows about the war in Northern Ireland?

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Excellent post by Sand. I can't believe that I forgot state to Irish1 that Martin McGuinness has actually admitted to membership of the IRA in the past. Ditto with Gerry Kelly and Joe Cahill. Sometimes you miss the wood, when you're looking for the trees (or in this case a few links to prove my point).

The word in Bold is the most important word in that post.

And Mighty Mouse I have reported that post, he called the average SF voter stupid and I am a Sinn Fein voter, and I don't like being called stupid, but thanks for your input:D