Bush Just Can't Keep His Nose Out...

ChipZilla

...of other people's business. Can he?

Now he wants to tell the EU when Turkey should join. In a speech before he left for Turkey the other day he was saying that:

"As Turkey meets the EU standards for membership, the European Union should begin talks that will lead to full membership for the Republic of Turkey," Bush said.

He's got some balls. WTF does he know about the conditions for accession? Not much I'd say. At least Chirac was able to give a comeback at the NATO summit:

"If President Bush really said that in the way that I read, then not only did he go too far, but he went into territory that isn't his," Chirac said.

"It's a bit like if I told the United States how they should manage their relations with Mexico."

I'm sure the Turks will like being compared to Mexicans, but anyhoo...

Some linkage:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apmideast_story.asp?category=1107&slug=NATO%20Summit%20Chirac

http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=21802

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3850181.stm

PHB

No no no, I don't think we'll add another US puppet government to the EU yet.

Meh

Originally posted by PHB
No no no, I don't think we'll add another US puppet government to the EU yet.

You think the Turkish government is a puppet of the US? Explain this then, please.

The Corinthian

It is highly inappropriate for him to have made that remark and if anything will now delay any Turkish entry into the EU on principle. From what I gather, even the UK are fuming over this.

Originally posted by PHB
No no no, I don't think we'll add another US puppet government to the EU yet.

That's a little unfair. Turkey, under great pressure and as NATO members, did tell them to piss off more than once, where it came from a northern land invasion.

PHB

I would explain it by a systematic leak in order to ensure that they can demostrate some sort of independence but in reality its just so next time they get told what to do it'll look like they did it out of free will

ChipZilla

Originally posted by Meh
You think the Turkish government is a puppet of the US? Explain this then, please.

Got anything older? That link was from before the war.

The Turks didn't want to have anything to do with that in case they pissed off the Iraqis?
They had enough on their plates wondering what the story was with the Kurds and what they might get up to with their colleagues over the border in Iraq?

Hobbes

Originally posted by ChipZilla
Got anything older? That link was from before the war.

The Turks didn't want to have anything to do with that in case they pissed off the Iraqis?
They had enough on their plates wondering what the story was with the Kurds and what they might get up to with their colleagues over the border in Iraq?

The turks didn't want anything to do with it until the US agreed that the Kurdish was not given their own country to run.

Kind of ironic when Bush was spouting off about freeing Kurds from denied rights under Saddam only to agree to Turkey to get their help.

Meh

Originally posted by ChipZilla
Got anything older? That link was from before the war.

Same government.

The Turks didn't want to have anything to do with that in case they pissed off the Iraqis?
They had enough on their plates wondering what the story was with the Kurds and what they might get up to with their colleagues over the border in Iraq?

So what you're telling me is that the Turks followed their own interests instead of doing what the US wanted them to do? QED, I believe.

Originally posted by PHB:
I would explain it by a systematic leak in order to ensure that they can demostrate some sort of independence but in reality its just so next time they get told what to do it'll look like they did it out of free will

Oh great, here come the conspiracy theories. Don't suppose you have anything to back this theory up, or did you just pull it out of your ass?

DublinWriter

Originally posted by Meh
You think the Turkish government is a puppet of the US? Explain this then, please.

That BBC news link is from March last year!

Breaking news....Archduke Ferdinand has just been shot!

The US give Turkey a couple of hundred million dollars a year.

Turkey makes Bosco look a agent of free will.

sceptre

Originally posted by DublinWriter
Breaking news....Archduke Ferdinand has just been shot!

Dagnabbit, the Kaiser's gonna be pissed - and I had money on Austria-Hungary to win euro 2004.

Sleipnir

And there goes my holiday in Flanders.

Meh

Originally posted by DublinWriter
That BBC news link is from March last year!

Wow, short attention span, haven't we? I suppose we should forget all about Bush's WMD claims and the justifications for the Iraq war as well because, hey, that was all in March last year. Ancient history!

The US give Turkey a couple of hundred million dollars a year.

And if you read the article, the Turks turned down six billion more in aid because they refused to allow US troops through their country.

Big Ears

Originally posted by sceptre
Dagnabbit, the Kaiser's gonna be pissed - and I had money on Austria-Hungary to win euro 2004.

Thye Ottoman empire looks like the safest bet for now .

BUMP!

Whatever reason it is that bush wants the Turks to be allowed access the fact remains that it is none of his business!!
Not being racist or anything (although that is exactly what I am being) but from my own experience of the turks I personally wouldn't like them in the EU. I lived in Antwerp for a few years where there are quite a few turks and they are the filthiest race I've ever seen - both in their attitudes to women and inparticular in their attitudeother cultures...

DublinWriter

Originally posted by BUMP!
Not being racist or anything (although that is exactly what I am being) but from my own experience of the turks I personally wouldn't like them in the EU. I lived in Antwerp for a few years where there are quite a few turks and they are the filthiest race I've ever seen - both in their attitudes to women and inparticular in their attitudeother cultures...

Yes, it's funny how racists always start sentances with 'I'm not being a racist, but...'

That's kind of like me saying 'I'm not a murderer, but I'm going to stick this axe in your head'.

British people said much the same about the Irish who went to live in London in the 50's/60's, so draw your own conclusions.

I've lived in Belgium for a couple of years, and I'm aware of the racial tensions with the Turks, Antwerp especially. It was because of all this that Belgium's (well, Flander's) very own BNP was set up - the Vlaamsblok - in Antwerp.

Are you talking about Turks as a whole, or just the Turkish comminity in Belgium?

As for attitudes to women, the Swiss didn't let women vote until....wait for it...1971!!!

Meh

Originally posted by BUMP!
in particular in their attitude other cultures...

"I can't stand those dirty Turks and their lack of tolerance for other cultures!" The ironing is delicious...

DublinWriter

Originally posted by Meh
"I can't stand those dirty Turks and their lack of tolerance for other cultures!" The ironing is delicious...

...there's a Freudian slip if ever I saw one.

Their Delight isn't bad either.

gaelic cowboy

I think he is right Turkey should be allowed to join we just took on 10 new countries and I bet most of them pale beside Turkey. Reality is a lot of euro politicians fear Turkey's large and growing muslim population. After all how will those French and German be able to get there own way when a country as big as Turkey joins??????

Sand

Bush exspressed an opinion that Turkey should be brought into the EU. Woopdee ****ing doo. Most sane people agree this is what should happen. The US and the Turks are allies, Bush is clearly going to speak up for them, or at least the Turks would expect him to. False upset and hand wringing on the part of the French is laughable but predictable.

Anyway most Europeans are happy to advise the US on how to conduct its internal and external affairs so pot, kettle, black as they say.

mike65

Ditto Sand, yet another non-story for the "Anti" brigade to seize upon. Let 'em in I say and watch the Franch and Germans quake, they're already pissed off with the eastern States and thier fondness for anglo-american captialism.

Mike.

Orion

Originally posted by DublinWriter

As for attitudes to women, the Swiss didn't let women vote until....wait for it...1971!!!

The nagging finally got to them did it?

Ajnag

Maybe Its just ol bush doing what he dose best, stirin it up....

Given the bush admins links to the pnac , Id say they arnt very happy at the chances of turkey joining the eu.Would the turkish in the eu not be a stratigic loss for any american powerbase? Especially for those seeking a stratagy of american dominance.

Seems the ("great") game is afoot.

flogen

From what I know, Turkey has not gotten into the EU yet because it isn't up to 'code', now I dont know what that code is, nor do i know if it has been bent a little to ensure Turkey cant get in, but the fact is, Bush has no place to tell the EU who is should and shouldn't let in. Maybe Turkey should get in, but Bush has no place in that debate,.

Saying that, it is abit of a non-story, had he demanded the EU let them in right away or else he'd bomb us all... now that might be a story worth reading.

flogen

Originally posted by flogen
but the fact is, Bush has no place to tell the EU who is should and shouldn't let in. Maybe Turkey should get in, but Bush has no place in that debate,.

flogen

He can express his opinion though and he can lobby.
Saying he is telling them to let Turkey in is like saying he is ordering them to let them in.
He's not doing that and of course he's not entitled to do that.

For flips sake it's only a speech he gave expressing what he wanted.
Are we to ban speeches on foreign policy now?

Hobbes

Originally posted by Earthman

Are we to ban speeches on foreign policy now?

No, but his comment has probably made things worse for Turkey. If turkey does get in he will probably be all "I told them to do that".

thejollyrodger

Im not too impressed with the US of A interferring with internal E.U business. It is not for Bush to say publicially who should be allowed to join the EU. Next thing he will be pushing for is to allow Israel to join.

I dont think the French or Germans will be too impressed with that statement. Personally Im not too sure about this whole case for the turks joining. There is 68,893,918 (July 2004 est.) million of them and its going to be a MAJOR player in EU business. I have nothing against turks but Im voting No.

flogen

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
There is 68,893,918 (July 2004 est.) million of them and its going to be a MAJOR player in EU business. I have nothing against turks but Im voting No.

why?

flogen

Big Ears

I think the reasons already stated , that Turkey being in the EU would have a positive effect on the EU buisness wise , and we dont want that .

Magnolia_Fan

As Turkey meets the EU standards for membership, the European Union should begin talks that will lead to full membership for the Republic of Turkey," Bush said

That sounds to me as if he gave his opinion as to what they shoud do not "tell them" as so many of you have said

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sand
Anyway most Europeans are happy to advise the US on how to conduct its internal and external affairs so pot, kettle, black as they say.

Most Europeans perhaps, but not European heads of State. So not the same thing.

thejollyrodger

Anyway most Europeans are happy to advise the US on how to conduct its internal and external affairs so pot, kettle, black as they say.

Can you explain that phrase about the kettle.

I posted the reasons why I dont wish Turkey to join the E.U on the Turkey thread;)

BUMP!

...racist stuff...

I'll openly admit what I said above is racist - after all classing a whole society based on the actions is exactly that. However, all the political correctness in the world cant change the SERIOUS tensions that follow these people around (the same problems can be seen in paris). There is at least quite a large percentage of turks that, when they move to a country, act with total disregard for the place they're in. (i.e. total disregard for other cuktures)

And for the record - I couldn't care less about their accents, colour of skin, religion etc. as that doesn't bother me. What does is the knowledge of what trouble tends to follow (perhaps a minority of) these people...

Hobbes

Originally posted by BUMP!
cant change the SERIOUS tensions that follow these people around (the same problems can be seen in paris).

Have you ever hung around with ex-pats in other countries? Shame on them for not adapting to other cultures.

ChipZilla

Originally posted by Sand
Anyway most Europeans are happy to advise the US on how to conduct its internal and external affairs so pot, kettle, black as they say.

Care to elaborate on that, or show some examples of European meddling in US affairs? When has Bush taken any European country's advice on anything? Is the UK not trying to get the rest of it's citizens out of Guantanamo at the minute with little success?

MeatProduct

To comment on the racism and Turks issue I spent 6 months living in Vienna and I found that most of the Turks I saw or encounted were not "nice". Amazing disregard for women, grabing their bums and the like in broad daylight on the main streets.

Now, from what I have heard that seems to be more typical of the Turks that take up in other countries. It would seem that the situation is not so bad in Turkey.

Just observations on my behalf.

To get on topic, Bush would not take too kindly if Bertie told him how to run his dictatorship over the US.

Nick

BUMP!

Have you ever hung around with ex-pats in other countries? Shame on them for not adapting to other cultures.

I know what you are trying to say and to a degree you have a point but if not socialising was the limit of my ignorance then I would be quite happy...
Its quite hard to explain the degree of tensions there were between the Belg's and the turks (mostly because I was only a barely a teenager at the time and didn't quite understand the background) but suffice to say the tensions they stirred were worse than those often attached to the travelling community here.

por

Originally posted by ChipZilla
Care to elaborate on that, or show some examples of European meddling in US affairs? When has Bush taken any European country's advice on anything? Is the UK not trying to get the rest of it's citizens out of Guantanamo at the minute with little success?

All he did was express an opinion, I am sure France and Germany expressed an opinion to the US on the invasion of Iraq.....

When has Bush taken any European country's advice on anything?

Has Europe taken Bush's advice on Turkey joining?, I don't think so...

It's just more Bush bashing if you ask me....

por

Originally posted by MeatProduct


To get on topic, Bush would not take too kindly if Bertie told him how to run his dictatorship over the US.

Nick

Dicatorship, what dictatorship ?. Last time I checked there will be an electon in the US in Nov.

What a stupid comment MeatProduct.

MeatProduct

Originally posted by por
Dicatorship, what dictatorship ?. Last time I checked there will be an electon in the US in Nov.

What a stupid comment MeatProduct.

Yes, an "election".

Nick

Lemming

Originally posted by por
All he did was express an opinion, I am sure France and Germany expressed an opinion to the US on the invasion of Iraq.....

Por .....

*sigh*

as pointed out by others, if it were joe-bloggs american saying it well then all fine and well. Opinions, etc whatnot.

But the leader of a country stood up on the world stage and publicly stated, in front of that same world stage funnily enough, what he thought the leaders of another group of countries should do.

THe supposedly most powerful man in the world gave his opinion whilst speaking in an official capacity in front of the world.

THAT is what makes what he said so controversial. NOT because he's of american, swiss, or little-f*cking-green-martian nationality.

It's just more Bush bashing if you ask me....

Well I'm not asking you because it's not bush bashing for the sake of bush bashing. He made a faux-pas. A rather bad one at that.

por

Originally posted by MeatProduct
Yes, an "election".

Nick

Well there is the predictable Florida re-count conspiracy theory again. Florida would never have been an issue had Gore managed to win his home state on Tennessee.

US electors have the chance to make a decision in Nov, something that dictators never give their citizens.

Have a look at our own election system; I am sure that over the years many a candidate has not been elected due to 'spoiled votes'.

Get over it MeatProduct.

MeatProduct

Originally posted by por
Well there is the predictable Florida re-count conspiracy theory again. Florida would never have been an issue had Gore managed to win his home state on Tennessee.

US electors have the chance to make a decision in Nov, something that dictators never give their citizens.

Have a look at our own election system; I am sure that over the years many a candidate has not been elected due to 'spoiled votes'.

Get over it MeatProduct.

Whoa there tiger! What do I need to get over?

So the Florida issuse is a conspiracy theory now is it? I'll note that down, I have been so wrong about that election it would seem. I better stop thinking for myself now and listen to Fox for some more of that good old bible truth.

For my next feat I'm going to start believing in Jesus. Thanks for the guidance Por, you really helped me out.

Nick

Lemming

Originally posted by por
US electors have the chance to make a decision in Nov, something that dictators never give their citizens.

I love when this line gets trotted out by the rabid right.

Tell me por, what happens when someone buys out/corrupts the voting system?

You get shafted and they get their way. or something like that. Yes?


What happens when a dictator takes away the voting system?

You get shafted and they get their way. or something like that. Yes?

There's a fine line between the two and sometimes you don't even know where it is .....

The Corinthian

Originally posted by por
All he did was express an opinion, I am sure France and Germany expressed an opinion to the US on the invasion of Iraq.....

An opinion can become an order or instruction depending on how it is delivered.

But even taking what he said as a simple opinion, it was directed at the EU itself and not at the EU’s policy towards either the US or EU foreign relations. It would be akin to instructing the US to make Puerto Rico a full state of the USA (it is presently a protectorate) or, as Chirac suggested, how to conduct foreign policy with Mexico. Diplomatically to do so is a big no-no.

Most insulting is that he suggested that Turkey’s admission into the EU would “prove that Europe is not the exclusive club of a single religion, and it would expose the 'clash of civilisations' as a passing myth of history” - effectively relegating Europe to the role of another tool of US foreign policy.

As a result, Turkey - regardless of the merits of her claim - will probably have membership further delayed in response to Bush’s comments.

All in all, a desperate diplomatic blunder.

por

Originally posted by Lemming

Tell me por, what happens when someone buys out/corrupts the voting system?

Can you back up that statment please ?.

Sand

Re: Europeans ( or their leaders if we want to split hairs) would never tell another country how to run its own shop

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2863175.stm

Arrogant, meddling bastards eh? Telling a sovereign nation how to run its own internal affairs. Not only exspressing an opinion, but actually running off to the UN to try and force their view down the throats of another government.

I dont know which is more hilarious, the self righteous blinkers or the desperate, irrational and mindless hatred of Bush that attempts to turn everything he does or says into "the worst thing evah!!!"

Please continue to discredit yourselves though.

As regards the future of Turkey - lets be clear here. Turkey is slowly but surely becoming a liberal democracy, and a muslim one at that - as such a great example to the people of the middle east. THE major carrot is EU membership. EU membership is good for Turkey but its also good for the EU, as we will have a liberal, democratic and eventually prosperous Turkey in the EU rather than the alternative which is a illiberal, undemocratic and desperately poor Turkey right up on the EUs border.

Worries about a muslim nation being the 2nd largest in the EU are fairly petty. Gradually, EU institutions will be given a direct mandate from the people so nations will take a backseat anyway.

As for the pot, kettle, black thing - its a phrase, signifying someone criticising another for something that they are equally guilty of. An example would be Euros citicising the US for sponsoring terrorism, probably blissfully unaware that the EU sponsors the PA, which pays the families of suicide bombers carrying out terrorist attacks in Israel. Hilariously, this will often be accompanied by a tirade against Americans for not knowing or caring whats done in their name around the world.

Lemming

Originally posted by por
Can you back up that statment please ?.

Do a google. You'll find plenty of info. I'm too busy with work to do it for you. But you'll find something on the judge who presided over the florida recount case, who was, if I recall, not only a card-carryign member of the republican party but was also involved in some way in the actual election campaign .......

Or the thousands who were incorrectly struck off the register by Jeb Bush?

impartiality lost perhaps?

Hobbes

Originally posted by por
Well there is the predictable Florida re-count conspiracy theory again. Florida would never have been an issue had Gore managed to win his home state on Tennessee.

It is only a conspiracy is you can't prove it.

Known facts.

- Electronic Voting machines gave incorrect voting tallies in some areas. The most famous being "-16,000" votes assigned to Al Gore. After the audit it was found that the 16,000 votes were moved to others.

- While a major turnout was expected, not all precidents were given enough voter cards to allow people to vote.

- A police checkpoint (one reported) was set up and was caught turning away people to vote.

- Voters removed from the chance to vote by being put on the felons list by accident. The company that controlled this list was a major contributor to Bushes election campaign.

- Polling stations closed early in some areas.

- Some polling stations even moved location without notice.

- Many African Americans could not vote as the polling stations could not confirm they were allowed to. (A lot of these people got a cash settlement some months later)

- Lots of Haitian and Puerto Rican voters were not provided required language assistance.

- If you were African American you were 10 times more likely to have your vote marked as spoiled in Florida then any other state.

- 54% of the spoiled vote in Florida recount was made up by the African-American vote.

- At the end of the day Bush was voted in by the govenment by people who were put in to power by his daddy.

These are all proven facts after an investigation by the US Civil Rights commission.

A large majority of African Americans, Haitians and Latinos were denied the right to vote when legally they could.

It makes Saddams "100% vote" look cheap. The US at least tried to make it look like it was legitimate. If this had happened in any other country the US would be spouting off about freedom and democracy and how the US has a better voting system.

... anyway the US voting system is kind of a farce anyway. You end up with a choice between two people. What happens when these two people have similar agendas?

sceptre

Originally posted by por
US electors have the chance to make a decision in Nov, something that dictators never give their citizens.

Pinochet did. Mind you, he didn't think he was going to lose.

Marcos did. Mind you in round one he took steps to make sure he didn't lose.

I'm sure I can find a few who weren't coincidentally propped up by the US

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sand
Re: Europeans ( or their leaders if we want to split hairs) would never tell another country how to run its own shop

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2863175.stm

Arrogant, meddling bastards eh? Telling a sovereign nation how to run its own internal affairs. Not only exspressing an opinion, but actually running off to the UN to try and force their view down the throats of another government.

Such an opinion went much further than the usual lip service meted out by Western governments on issues such as human rights or even trade. It concerned the sovereign nature or identity of an independent political entity.

You’ll note that we (or the US) do not telling the Chinese whether or not either Taiwan or Tibet are or should be part of their sovereign state, for example. The Germans have never suggested that the UK should hand back the six counties, or the US suggested to Spain and France that the Basques should be allowed to secede.

In fact the only example of such an intervention that comes to mind was Clinton’s call for unity to Quebec on the eve of the plebiscite that could have resulted in it’s secession - and that was only with the cooperation of the Canadian government.

Sand

Such an opinion went much further than the usual lip service meted out by Western governments on issues such as human rights or even trade. It concerned the sovereign nature or identity of an independent political entity.

Youre right, the EU went beyond the lip service of saying that we hope all nations embrace genuine respect for human rights and named and critixed China specifically for purely internal affairs. It then went to an international body to censure the Chinese for not doing as the EU expects in purely Chinese internal affairs.

It did indeed go much farther than Bush demonstrating his friendship to the Turks by supporting their candidacy for the EU in a speech whilst visiting the Turks - a speech that was well received by the Turks themselves.

Honestly TC, Ive a good deal of respect for you as being one of the most intelligent posters on the board. Why youre getting into such a fit about Bush doing what every single politician does mystifies me.

Politicians giving their opinion on how other countries/groups operate and should operate is practically one of the definitions of international politics. Hell the EU has been providing constant commentary on how the coalition should operate Iraq, which does not concern them anymore than Turkey concerns the US.