Anti Bush March

Fudger

Is there such a gathering this weekend in Dublin?

conZ

Got a flyer in the door this morning..

Summarised :


Irish Anti War movement - 0861523542

Protest Sat. 26 June
Assemble in Clarecastle (outside Ennis) at 10am and march to Dromoland Castle (where he's staying for a night).

Theres a peoples assembly at 2 pm, Saturday 3rd of July in Liberty Hall, Dublin.
www.irishantiwar.org

chewy

its not really about bush its too easy to be anti-bush its about our participation in his actions which we do via shannon


reclaim the skies fri 25th 7pm lidl shannon town centre
bush off nad don't come back 26th 12pm bunratty castle to dromoland castle(as near as)

gaelic cowboy

Don't believe them most of these people organising these marches are rabid anti americans have nothing to do with them. It wouldn't matter if it was Gore or Bush coming they would still be out roaring

therecklessone

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
Don't believe them most of these people organising these marches are rabid anti americans have nothing to do with them. It wouldn't matter if it was Gore or Bush coming they would still be out roaring

Same ole, same old...

Any chance you have anything constructive to say? Like some form of criticism that doesn't drag up that old chestnut?

gaelic cowboy

How do you mean how is marching giving out about a war that is over more constructive???

therecklessone

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
How do you mean how is marching giving out about a war that is over more constructive???

War over eh? Haven't been reading the papers much then...

Quite apart from all that, its not my job to argue the case of the IAWM/Stop Bush campaign. I'd just like it if just once people could find some other reason to debunk the anti-war movement's arguments without resorting to tarring everybody with the one brush. Millions marched in the US against Bush's foreign policies, are they anti-American?

gaelic cowboy

Originally posted by therecklessone
Same ole, same old...

Any chance you have anything constructive to say? Like some form of criticism that doesn't drag up that old chestnut?

I am right they do hate americans don't deny it is on the rise or maybe a better word it is more overt since the end of the cold war. You say do i have any form of criticism I do I just criticised the people organising these type of activities. Just watch as Sinn Fein hypocritically lambast Bush on friday for being a distablising force on world peace this from a crowd of terrorist's?????

gaelic cowboy

Originally posted by therecklessone
War over eh? Haven't been reading the papers much then...

Quite apart from all that, its not my job to argue the case of the IAWM/Stop Bush campaign. I'd just like it if just once people could find some other reason to debunk the anti-war movement's arguments without resorting to tarring everybody with the one brush. Millions marched in the US against Bush's foreign policies, are they anti-American?

Those people in america are well entitled to march all they want but the various IAWM groupings are a disturbing mix of groups indeed. A person can march with noble intentions but if people with other ideas are running the show it is best avoided.

therecklessone

So all these people hate Americans then? Ordinary Joe US Citizen?

Can you not seperate government policy from the people. I don't support our government, am I anti-Irish?

Explain how anti-war protestors are anti-American people, not policy.

chewy

if you voted aganist the government in the last elections your anti-irish?


iawm groupings are a disturbing mix of groups indeed, they are indeed i have first hand experience of the backstabingness but i still be out on friday doing _my_ bit

gaelic cowboy

Originally posted by therecklessone
So all these people hate Americans then? Ordinary Joe US Citizen?

Can you not seperate government policy from the people. I don't support our government, am I anti-Irish?

Explain how anti-war protestors are anti-American people, not policy.

I said the organisers of said activities not the marchers most people were just disturbed at war and didn't like it. But I refuse to follow the IAWM while they happily let SF under their umbrella.

therecklessone

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
I said the organisers of said activities not the marchers most people were just disturbed at war and didn't like it. But I refuse to follow the IAWM while they happily let SF under their umbrella.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.

You're problem is with Sinn Fein, not with the IAWM or other antiwar groups. You should have said...

chewy

apart form the swp is the having the week willied green party etc in there

dahamsta

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
Those people in america are well entitled to march all they want but the various IAWM groupings are a disturbing mix of groups indeed. A person can march with noble intentions but if people with other ideas are running the show it is best avoided.

You neglected to address the subject of the "war" being "over". How convenient.

adam

chewy

people still being killed on both sides americans still suing heavy weaponary (at-10 just yesterday) against iraqis fighters and civilians.... what more do you want

the war is terrorism is still on going ... bush said that i'd never stop?

vorbis

in a technical sense the war is obviously over. The baathists are no longer in power. Whats happenning now is insurgency. By your logic, wars would never end. If neo nazis blew up something in germany next week, that would be a continuation of the second world war.

chewy

the war for the americans isn't over....

gaelic cowboy

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
Those people in america are well entitled to march all they want but the various IAWM groupings are a disturbing mix of groups indeed. A person can march with noble intentions but if people with other ideas are running the show it is best avoided.

Originally posted by dahamsta
You neglected to address the subject of the "war" being "over". How convenient.

adam

Eh explain what you mean you think I said what exactly what do you mean by "how convenient".

arcadegame2004

The abuses by American troops in the Abu Ghraib and possibly other Iraqi jails are reason enough to protest, in my opinion. But does anybodu seriously believe he will pay any attention? Many Americans have an inflated sense of their own infallibility and I definitely think this includes Mr.Bush.

chewy

so we'll see marching on fri or perhaps in shannon arcade

BuffyBot

Don't believe them most of these people organising these marches are rabid anti americans have nothing to do with them. It wouldn't matter if it was Gore or Bush coming they would still be out roaring

What a load of codswallop. I'd imagine quite a sizeable proportion of prostesters will be there because it is him, and because of his actions over various matters.

I am right..

Glad to see you are leaving room for debate :rolleyes:

dathi1

The abuses by American troops in the Abu Ghraib and possibly other Iraqi jails are reason enough to protest, in my opinion. But does anybodu seriously believe he will pay any attention?

If and that's a big IF any US networks or press media show footage of protests here it might have some influence on the Irish American vote. Now I know most yanks don't care what old Mick thinks but a few votes here and there could make the difference in what looks like a tight race in November. In my opinion I think the Fallujah massacres of 600+ civilians (and some fighters in their own country) by 82nd airborne and 101st armoured is reason enough..and of course the 14,000 killed during and since the invasion. I don't even think Sadam reached this yearly quota.

woody

What Exactly are these Moronic Protesters going to acheive "ZERO"

They will never get near bush.. and to be honest the majority of people in Ireland could'nt give a rat's ass if he comes or goes. Me I welcome him, the looney far left nutters are heading down to clare for a nice weekend of smoking dope,drinking dutch gold and talking bohemian guff.

Get a Job.

If any of you can get by the ARW , PDF and the Garda I hope they get shot as it may put them off with there Bull and pure Bull.

The War has been won and the Civil War is going on...Lets see how anti- yank and ant- coaltion if they see some poor westerner or Korean get his head cut off.

Get a life.

sceptre

Originally posted by woody
If any of you can get by the ARW , PDF and the Garda I hope they get shot as it may put them off with there Bull and pure Bull.

Between this and wanting Syria to get bombed to hell you really need to work on this aggression of yours.

super_furry

Things must be bad if you're resorting to the 'old hippy' stereotypes already? I'm surprised you haven't called us all commie pinkos yet.

woody

I don't mind the Communists the Real ones not the muppets here as there idelogies are quiet fair.

super_furry

So who do you think are 'real communists?'

woody

The Likes of Lenin, Trotski etc... the people in the former soviet union...the majority of the people claiming to be whatever here to it to get laid or are dopey students who not one brain cell between them from smoking to much WEED!

Evil Phil

Seeing as people have mentioned human rights abuses Amnesty are holding a demonstration on Thursday 24th June, at lunch time, against the Bush Administrations flouting of international law. This demonstration is part of a wider campaign. Full details here.

Its at lunchtime so those of use with jobs can take part.

super_furry

You really don't have the slightest clue. But hey, latching on to cheap, outdated stereotypes in so much easier.

woody

Pal I actually do and was in the Workers Party for years before I saw the lights so two fingers

sceptre

Originally posted by woody
The Likes of Lenin, Trotski etc... the people in the former soviet union...

Good lord.

If you'd mentioned a kibbutz I might have even backed you up.

woody

Amnesty another group of self righteous idiots.

BUMP!

Posted by DAHAMSTA

You neglected to address the subject of the "war" being "over". How convenient.

I tell you one thing - if my brother/sister/mother/father/son/daughter was killed in a (illegal) war like this then for me the war wouldn't be over JUST BECAUSE MR BUSH SAYS IT IS. Regardless of what happens in the future, there is no way to get back a lost life and therefore no way to undo the hatred that America has generated against the not just themselves, but the West as a whole.

Hope it was worth it for a few barrels of oil...

super_furry

Originally posted by woody
Pal I actually do and was in the Workers Party for years before I saw the lights so two fingers

Those lights didn't happen to be floating in the sky, promising to take you to a far off planet, did they?

Evil Phil

Originally posted by woody
Amnesty another group of self righteous idiots.

Can you provide an example? From my experience Amnesty are not part of the 'Soap Dodging Lobby' as I like to call them but are generally made up of people like myself. Employed (self in my case), educated and generally well informed.

Morpheus

*morpheus extends the hand of irish friendship to Americas leader as he arrives here representing his country and population*

You see for all this posturing the fact of the matter is that dubya is more welcome by more people than the Anti crowd would care to admit.

Also there are far more people than the Anti peeps want to think about who honestly couldnt give a rats ar$e other than "Cool jets eh?" or "Hey check out that chopper, thats here for george bush man... deadly buzz!" but thats the way ireland is today.

There is a vocal minority in the country, a sizeable vocal minority i should say who while rightfully protesting (and more power to them, although im not opposed to GB and i support the USA in all my north dublin irishedness) nevertheless constantly say and I quote

"The vast majority of irish people dont want GB here"

Now THAT sickens me, where is their proof eh? answer... they HAVE no proof that the vast majority of people protest against him and do you know why? I'll tell you why, its because the vast majority of people will be at home glued to their tellies watching the whole thing on TV either waiting to see the protestors get a wash (what fun!) or to see what GB is proposing that may effect our economy and their pocket, or watching to see if Al Quaeda try to land a ryanair flight on the roof.

They moaned when their posters were removed, and they were rightfully removed for having a political agenda. That law they used to remove them was there before bush so stop looking suprised for chrissakes!!

THATS the true nature of the irish beast today, its a funny old world, go have your protest, let the hippies among you bang pots pans and bongos etc, and let the non-hippies among you nod and clap at the SWP crap (because their agenda is crap, im sorry, but its pure manure my friends) and cheer the mean green machine too, and the spin feiners because your entitled to, by all means have a ball, but please, dont do anything foolish, you will only make the nation as a whole look bad, as well as
running the risk of a quick death from painful high speed lead poisoning.

And the vast majority of irish people will think your mostly prats... but if you are protesting, do it right, get your point across, a national protest, well isnt this democracies finest hour? when we show those other countries what power democracy can give to you, the ordinary citizen, it gives you the right to choose, the right to voice an opinion publicly...

It doesnt give some gob****e the right to spray bleach in the face of a garda who while they may agree with your protests, must follow orders because his family depends on his money keeping food on the table, or a soldier in the same boat. Respect them as fellow citizens doing a job, like i said put your point across, just please do it right and peacefully.

dathi1

THATS the true nature of the irish beast today, its a funny old world, go have your protest, let the hippies among you bang pots pans and bongos etc, and let the non-hippies among you nod and clap at the SWP crap (because their agenda is crap, im sorry, but its pure manure my friends)

Seriously you really think that the majority of people here want Bush!!?? Look the dogs on the street don't want him. There is a tendency of some people of conservative persuasion here to polarise the whole anti neocon, pro Zionist, bush crowd as left swp hippies. I can assure you that there will be a large swath of the political spectrum at the rallies and even right-wingers like myself albeit hard to do with the likes of barret + co...and as for yer man woody above...are you sure you're talking about the same geographical area because there seems to a lot of attacks on occupation forces up to the last hour...civil war my arse.

dahamsta

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
Eh explain what you mean you think I said

Eh, in english now pal.

what exactly what do you mean by "how convenient".

Ordinarily I'd say "you know what I mean", but in your case...

It's typical of posters like you to pick and choose what you reply to from other people's posts. If you're unable to debate something rationally, or if you're plain beaten, you ignore it, pretend it didn't happen. It's juvenile.

Originally posted by vorbis
in a technical sense the war is obviously over.

Excellent, let's get into technicalities! Shall we start by reviewing the fact that this wasn't a war in the first place, hence my quotes around the word. Shall we call it an "illegal invasion"? Would "the illegal invasion isn't over yet" be more accurate?

adam

Morpheus

In the history of the world countries have invaded other countries, whether for economic reasons, pre emptive strikes, regime change... but i can tell you this, theres no such thing as a legal invasion unless the "invadee" has asked to be invaded!! Where do you get off calling it an "illegal" invasion.

It was justified action many fronts...

Here are a number of factors for the invasion....

Saddam was a ba$tard and needed to be removed.

Al Queda IMO was getting funding from him.

Humanitarian reasons, i dont care what you say but gassing 8000 kurds because they were there and he wanted to test out chemical weapons isnt exactly going to improve iraqs chances of non-invasion. The continuing execution of citizens and the extremist right wing para military forces under his control were threats to the population, did you SEE how happy the Iraqis were when Saddam was crushed, you and i KNOW there are foreign fighters pouring into the country for a "Go" at the western devils.

Kuwait was constantly under threat and the middle east lived in fear of that nutjob getting itchy trigger fingers on his scuds.

Were not completely dumb the Oil is important to the world economy of which EU and USA are large beneficiaries, however its a 2 way thing, I for one would rather see the black gold flowing out of Iraq with money flowing INTO their economy, if they can get through this with UN help and get an oil industry on its feet, in 15 years they could be one of the largest economies in the world. Less money being fired into crazy defence programs by an obviously insane leader and a democratically driven government at the helm will improve the standard of life for everyone.

Maybe the Suni and the Shi ite will learn to live together?!

my 2c

dathi1

"Saddam was a ba$tard and needed to be removed." (haha....like Mugabwe in Zimbabwe)

That's half the world that needs to be sorted out.

"Al Queda IMO was getting funding from him."

Even the yanks themselves are now doubting this.

"Humanitarian reasons",

15,000 + killed on invasion alone. The inevitable civil war and break up of Iraq....yes ok.

Kuwait

that other Monarchist dictatorship that should be bombed under the logic you give above.

or you could just say:

1.second largest oil reserve in the world. 2. One last counter threat to Zionist occupation and expansion.

They thought they had it all...the big US embassy..The big oil contracts...A new American colonial post hence the pull out of Saudi.
Even I was surprised by the Iraqi's sense of nationhood and awareness that they where being ****ed over again by the crowd that put him there in the first place.

BACK ON TOPIC who's going to the demo on Friday...Parnell Square 7pm?
we could have a boards meet up?

Hobbes

Originally posted by Morphéus

It was justified action many fronts...

Here are a number of factors for the invasion....

o_O

Saddam was a ba$tard and needed to be removed.

So what dictates that another country should interfer in the state of another? Bush is a ba$tard and needs to be removed. Does that mean we should invade the US?

Al Queda IMO was getting funding from him.

Post proof, because to date there has been absolutly no proof of this. Even the 9/11 commission came to this. Also AQ were on Saddams most wanted list.

Humanitarian reasons, i dont care what you say but gassing 8000 kurds because they were there and he wanted to test out chemical weapons isnt exactly going to improve iraqs chances of non-invasion.

Who supplied the gas? Who sat back and let him do it because it was in the thier intrests to let him?

did you SEE how happy the Iraqis were when Saddam was crushed, you and i KNOW there are foreign fighters pouring into the country for a "Go" at the western devils.

I believe the phrase was "Thanks, now leave our country".

Kuwait was constantly under threat and the middle east lived in fear of that nutjob getting itchy trigger fingers on his scuds.

Kuwait were caught by Iraq stealing oil from thier country (before the first war). The US diplomat to Iraq at the time green lighted the invasion of Kuwait. Even Saddam acknowledged this in his speech when he took Kuwait.

Also the US helped fund him to deal with Iran after the attempt to control Iran (by installing a puppet dictator) failed.

I for one would rather see the black gold flowing out of Iraq with money flowing INTO their economy, if they can get through this with UN help and get an oil industry on its feet, in 15 years they could be one of the largest economies in the world.

It has nothing to do with that. The US supplies all the oil contracts to its own companies who then strip Iraq of its riches and then claim they are helping to rebuild the country. They pulled this sort of crap in Greece too.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Morphéus


Now THAT sickens me, where is their proof eh? answer... they HAVE no proof that the vast majority of people protest against him

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgxvmeEGpe-Gksg0aewFBADppk.asp [requires *free* registration]

Should Bush visit? 67% say NO

This is according the findings of the Irish Examiner/Prime Time opinion poll, conducted by Lansdowne Market Research.

In dramatic findings that will bring little comfort to the Government, some 67% of people polled in the East constituency said they were not in favour of the visit.

By contrast, 19%, or less than one in five, said they were in favour of Mr Bush arriving to Ireland for a meeting with EU leaders. A total of 14% expressed no opinion.

The poll, carried out in the European Parliament East constituency among a sample of 500 people, indicates widespread opposition among the Irish public to the US occupation of Iraq.

http://www.unison.ie/polls/index.php3?ident=Irish%20Independent&mypollid=1109&vo=1

Should the Government withdraw US President George Bush's invitation to visit Ireland in June?

yes - 52.5%

no - 45.9%

undecided - 1.6%

Slightly closer that one. Still, want to rethink your rant?

sceptre

Originally posted by therecklessone
Slightly closer that one.

There are presumably plenty of people who wouldn't want Bush to visit who reckon the Irish government shouldn't go far as to blatantly tell Tex-Mex to **** a duck.

therecklessone

Originally posted by sceptre
There are presumably plenty of people who wouldn't want Bush to visit who reckon the Irish government shouldn't go far as to blatantly tell Tex-Mex to **** a duck.

Agreed.

Those are the first two polls I found, I believe the Irish Times had a similar one but I'm not a member of ireland.com, maybe someone else could find/post it up?

Morpheus

I welcome the debate, im not here to ram my beliefs down peoples throats, i was unaware about the polls too, thanks...

By the way, that examiner one only the east constituency!
Theres more than one you know

Anyway, im sure that most people who couldnt be arsed about bush coming here or not, couldnt be arsed voting in the poll..

chewy

"The United States is
committed to the worldwide
elimination of torture and
we are leading this fight
by example"
George W.Bush - 26 June 2003

dahamsta

Originally posted by Morphéus
In the history of the world countries have invaded other countries, whether for economic reasons, pre emptive strikes, regime change... but i can tell you this, theres no such thing as a legal invasion unless the "invadee" has asked to be invaded!!

Declaration of war comes in handy too. But of course this is a country that picks and chooses which rules of war it follows, so I guess that's par for the course.

Where do you get off calling it an "illegal" invasion.

It was justified action many fronts...

There's a difference between illegal and justified my friend. Yes, on some fronts it was justified; but on the whole it wasn't. It was virtually a unilateral action made on behalf of and for the benefit of the United States of America in general and the Bush administration in particular. That's where I get off -- it's called the truth.

As to your "factors", my esteemed colleagues have addressed them adequately.

adam

therecklessone

Originally posted by Morphéus

By the way, that examiner one only the east constituency!
Theres more than one you know

I know, thats why I included the information that it was only the East constituency polled. Those were the two polls I found in the short time I looked.

My guess is that Dublin would have returned as high, if not higher, a percentage against the visit, and South and North-West would be slightly less than the figure of 67%. Note, thats a guess.

Originally posted by Morphéus

Anyway, im sure that most people who couldnt be arsed about bush coming here or not, couldnt be arsed voting in the poll..

By that reasoning, everyone who didn't vote in the recent elections favour Fianna Fail. Good luck to ya arguing that one...

MadsL

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Many Americans have an inflated sense of their own infallibility....

Err, based on what exactly? When did you become the expert on the Great American Sense of Ego. More stereotypes for you to peddle - maybe I should ask if you work in fashion??

Please people, don't let this crap go by unchallenged, a majority - that's right a majority of American's did NOT vote for Bush. The jump from American foreign policy to "Americans" is easy but a dangerous generalisation.