Message to government from elections

thejollyrodger

After the recent elections and the worst defeat for FF since the 1920's its clear that the voting public are most unhappy with the current lathergic lazy corrupt government.

There are reports upon reports waiting for ministers to make decisions but they have been incompentent to make any decisions and some fo the following issues needs addressed

2nd terminal at Dublin Airport,
decentralise jobs
Metro,
D interconnector
Motorways,
Health reforms,
Defence

The government should take out money IMMEDIATAELY in the form of a loan ( €5bn ) and build the Metro and D interconnector. It also needs to build the D interconnector to be build .. isnt it time for a new government

silverside

In fairness I don't think most people are aware of/too bothered about the defence of transport plans specifically. If anyone can sort out Transport it's Seamus Brennan. Michael Smith on the other hand looks likely to be reshuffled out of office. It's more a general dissatisfaction thing, and governments usually do badly in euro/local elections - look at england.

thejollyrodger

well maybe defence isnt always top of the discussion. but transport is a discrace !!!!!!

Were the 2nd richest country in Europe but have a crap airport and anyone that flys out of it knows that.. We have only 1 motorway to the border and the other 2 wont be finished tilll 2010. No subway/metro to the airport is an outcry.

Anyone watching the Euro 2004 football will see world class stadia built with world class motorways and rail connections. We have Nothing like that here.. obvisiously there is something wrong.

PHB

Were the 2nd richest country PER CAPITA
The key words there is PER Capita

The overall capital is much much less and the funding required for massive transport projects is not as readily availible as you might think

jd

Remember - there is a difference between wealth and income

pete

ahahha

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0615/election.html


FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

de5p0i1er

Why should we take out a loan to build up Dublin, I don't care if it's the capital the rest of the country gets nothing while Fat Head spends all the money on his home town, until FF start spending money on the west of the Shannon I don't want to here about taking out loans and getting this country into a bigger hole then it's already in. I'm sick of been treated like a second class citizen just because I'm not from Dublin, thats why me and alot of other people from this side of the country voted against them.

therecklessone

Originally posted by de5p0i1er
Why should we take out a loan to build up Dublin, I don't care if it's the capital the rest of the country gets nothing while Fat Head spends all the money on his home town, until FF start spending money on the west of the Shannon I don't want to here about taking out loans and getting this country into a bigger hole then it's already in. I'm sick of been treated like a second class citizen just because I'm not from Dublin, thats why me and alot of other people from this side of the country voted against them.

Do you want a touch of ketchup for the chip on your shoulder?

villain_97

The people finally told FF that they DO NOT 'embody the spirit of the nation' as they have so arrogantly claimed to do so.They also told the PDs that they have copped on that the PDs are not the great moral watch dog that they claim to be.The PDs are propping up an arrogant,un-caring and non principled shambles of a Government.People like to think that they get what they're voting for.They voted for PDs in 2002 to keep an eye on FF.They have become just as bad

DublinWriter

On balanced consideration, I'd say the message was:

"We hate and despise you, you corrupt bunch of f**K heads, and cannot wait to give you more of the same in 2007"

I don't think there's ever been a government more hated in this state since it's formation.

I was walking down Kildare St. one day last March and passed by Weaseál Martin talking to someone on the pavement outside the Mayor's Office, and so help me, I never had as strong a desire to just walk up to someone and punch them in the face as I had at that moment.

...and I'm a Buddhist!

villain_97

Fine Gael are certainly in buyent mood after the elcetion.A few friends of mine in Young Fine Gael are talking about the possibility of replacing FF as the largest party.more and more people are realising that kenny is a good political leader with strong values.Everyone he met during the campaign seemed impressed.next few years will be interesting.Will FF get a similar kicking in the General Election??I'd say they could loose upon 20 seats while PDs will be reduced to 4.I reckon Fine Gael and labour between them can gain 25+seats

star gazer

-Message to government from elections-
Shape up or you'll be shipped out.

health reform is needed, broken promises are not taken well by the electorate, listen or the electorate will have to shout louder at the next election and nobody likes paying extra taxes even stealth taxes.

Jivin Turkey

In all fairness, people are going to give out about government and use labels as "lazy" and "corrupt" no matter who is in office.

ZENER

I'd like to suggest you store away this angst for the elections for 2007 - remember a week is a long time in politics and when that date comes around the good old Irish voter will have sold their votes for the sake of a couple of extra baubles in their pay packet every week - just like last time !

Were the 2nd richest country in Europe but have a crap airport and anyone that flys out of it knows that..

Can you explain in what way we have a "crap airport" which one are you referring to? How is it crap ?

ZEN

Cork

Health needs to be tackled. Hanley needs to be fully implemented. The oppsition partys don't accept 100% of Hanley. But the government should implement it without delay.

The economy is doing well.

Infrastructure is being over hauled.

Taxes still need reduction.

DublinWriter

I didn't make the original comment re the airport, but I presume it's Dublin airport that you're talking about, and yes, I agree it's crap.

I've travelled all over the world and I've seen many (busy!) third world airports in Africa operate more efficiently at times of peek rush.

Typical of the laziness of Aer Rianta is there decision to put coin-slots on all the baggage trolleys so that they are saved the bother of collecting them. Most travellers into the country don't have a one-Euro piece to hand, and it's a wonderful welcome for them to Ireland.

Dublin airport on Monday morning from 6am to 10am resembles the black hole of Calcutta. Queues backing onto other queues, and then another gigatic queue trying to get through security.

I disagree about splitting Aer Rianta up into three entities because it really only makes the original problem three times as difficult to solve. Management of the airports should have been tendered out with companies like BAA bidding.

Dublin Aiport is a probably the best example of just how bad we are at the service industry in this country.

DublinWriter

Health needs to be tackled? Shure didn't Weaseal Martin stop everyone smokin' loike, boi? Shure aren't we all going to live forever now and we'll never need healthcare again?

As a health minister, Weaseal is a tundering disgrace. If I hear that crap about doubling the spend on health in the last few years I really will flip. Double of very little is still very little.

Personally I think Bertie will replace him and/or McCreepy with some younger, fresher talent. Cullen will be gone as well judging by the €55 million he flushed down the toilet on the e-voting fiasco.

What a country.

Cork

Health spending was increased from 3 billion to 11 billion.

Health will not be solved throwing money at it. We are spending enough money on health - it will be down to organisation.

Eletronic Voting will come. Waiting Saturday, Sunday and Monday for results was a disgrace.

No previous Irish government can match this governments record on the economy. But health needs to be focused in on & improved.

But Hanley needs full implementation. It should not be implemented in an a la carte type of way.


The Smoking ban was necessary. If it saves 1 - from cancer it will be worth it.

DublinWriter

Health spending was increased from 3billion to 11 billion?

Wow! The FF'ers must have got bored telling everyone they 'doubled' the health budget. Tripled? Nah..better make it a real whopper....quadrupled!!!

In the last five years the health budget has gone from 4.5 million to something like 9. Ask ol' Weaseal if you don't believe me.

FF completely ran away from amalgamating the regional health authorites into e body. We have a population the size of Birmingham, they have one NHS, we have 11 various state agencies that look after the health systems.

But hey, the healthcare budget was doubled. Wow! I bet that means that no one is waiting on trolleys for treatment anymore?

Look, I spend roughly double on groceries than I did 5 years ago, and about 3 times as much for petrol. Yet I'm still getting the same amount of groceries and petrol. See how dis ol' economy ting works yet?

Saying you 'doubled' the budget is meaningless in economic terms. It's an act of misdirection just like FF'ers constant mantra of being the party of low taxation.

As the average industrial wage brings you into the 42% band, I don't see how this makes FF the party of low taxation. Oh, and don't forget we have one of the highest rates of VAT in Europe, an unfair VRT tax, duties on wines and spirts that most of Europe don't have, a yearly €40 levy on Credit Cards so we can't 'Shop Around' between Credit Card companies, punative stamp duty on houses....

...I could go on.

AngelofFire

The people have spoken

We need cheaper housing

The prices of consumer items in this country are gone beyond a joke.

Our tax payers money is being wasted on pet projects like punchestown whereas people with special needs are being neglected.

I want to be able to go as far as i can in education as far as my abilities allow despite the fact that i am working class.

It shouldnt take me 1hour and 45 minutes to get into the city centre on a weekday morning.

We are sick of charges like the bin tax which only serves to line the pockets of the business people who financed FF election campaign.

We dont believe you when you pretend to care about our health by introducing a smoking ban,yet contrary to the promises you made to end waiting lists there are still 27000 people waiting.

We`re sick of your arrogance and the fact that you pretend you know whats good for us.

We`re tired of your subservience to corporate cowboys like michael o leary.

We dont like the fact that you allow the shannon to be used to help americas private war despite the fact that we a neutral country.

We would like the luas to be completed anytime before 2057 thank you.

ZENER

I didn't make the original comment re the airport, but I presume it's Dublin airport that you're talking about, and yes, I agree it's crap. I've travelled all over the world and I've seen many (busy!) third world airports in Africa operate more efficiently at times of peek rush.

No matter what I say here will be seen as an excuse but I'll try to explain without disagreeing with your points.

In essence I agree with you, Dublin Airport is not perfect, but it is a damn sight better than prior to the terminal extension. Currently airlines operating out of Dublin can depart at any times the please this leads to the congestion you speak of at certain times of the day. Most other International Airports use a time slot system to balance flight departure times evenly over the day. This, when introduced at Dublin, will make a difference and will reduce the congestion at the terminal.

Typical of the laziness of Aer Rianta is there decision to put coin-slots on all the baggage trolleys so that they are saved the bother of collecting them. Most travellers into the country don't have a one-Euro piece to hand, and it's a wonderful welcome for them to Ireland.

I agree. I think the coin slots were a poor idea. They were introduced to provide some organisation to the trolly situation which was getting out of control. At peak times prior to their introduction the trolly section were finding it near impossible to keep enough trollies available in the baggage hall for arriving passangers, the coin slots have helped here. It's not a lazyness thing as you suggest. Most of the passengers arriving at Dublin are from Europe and will have Euro currency which they can break up at the change machines provided. If you can suggest a better system taking what I've said into account then tell us.

Dublin airport on Monday morning from 6am to 10am resembles the black hole of Calcutta. Queues backing onto other queues, and then another gigatic queue trying to get through security.

Explained above. You can thank Al Queda (sp?)or George W. for the security situation and Airport Security for preventing that happening here.

I disagree about splitting Aer Rianta up into three entities because it really only makes the original problem three times as difficult to solve. Management of the airports should have been tendered out with companies like BAA bidding.

Isn't the BAA a British government run organisation.

Dublin Aiport is a probably the best example of just how bad we are at the service industry in this country.

A little strong in my opinion. There is more than just Aer Rianta involved at the airport, hundreds of large and small private companies provide you with most of the services you use there - are they part of your gripe?


ZEN

de5p0i1er

Originally posted by Cork
The Smoking ban was necessary. If it saves 1 - from cancer it will be worth it.

It's not worth it if you have to stand outside just so that a bunch of winers will vote FF. I'm a smoker and when I go out I have to stand outside just to have a cigarette just to keep a few moaners happy, I don't think thats fair. I hate ppl who get drunk and sit down beside you and don't shut up talking crap but we don't ban them from the work place, my standard of living has been lowered by this ban because of a choice I made (to smoke) that seems like discrimination to me. The government just want to make my life misrable so that they can distract ppl from the fact that there running the health service into the ground and treating the west like ****.

ZENER

You could also make another -perhaps better- choice . . quit ! As an ex-smoker I sympathise with you, I gave up the day the ban came into force and am now glad not to be part of the problem.

Look at it this way, if you think THEY want to ruin your life by preventing you from smoking then get your own back by:

1. Quitting the weed - now you can stay in the pub all night and their stoopid rule cant effect you.

2. By quitting you are denying them the tax and duty they take from your purchase.

3. Reduce the burden on the health service by becoming a non-smoker.

Slightly off topic here but a passanger I assisted in the airport last week stunk to high heaven of smoke - I'd never realised how disgusting it actually is. Do your self a favour - quit.

ZEN

therecklessone

Originally posted by de5p0i1er
I'm a smoker and when I go out I have to stand outside just to have a cigarette just to keep a few moaners happy, I don't think thats fair. I hate ppl who get drunk and sit down beside you and don't shut up talking crap

This one's been done to death, but here's a quick reminder...

YOU CAN'T DIE OF CANCER FROM SECOND HAND BEER FUMES!

Now move on...

DublinWriter

...but you can be kicked to death on the streets of Dublin by a lager lout.

Well, I think us smokers will have the last laugh (from beyond the grave probably) as the recent fall in pub sales contributed to Diago putting up the price of Guiness by 6c wholesale.

Also, every cig not smoked in a pub loses McCreepy 25c. That's 25c *per* cigarette folks, which by some quick back-of-cig packet maths I estimate will be a shortfall of shortfall of between €1.5bn and €2.5bn annually that will have to be made up from somewhere....i.e. the PAYE worker.

Oh, and don't give me that guff about savings to the heathcare system either. I heard a leading acuary on Radio 1 a few months ago saying that smokers actually cost less as we die younger and quicker. We all have to die sometime and of something. Non-smokers get cancer and heart disease too.

Silly, silly FF.

therecklessone

Originally posted by DublinWriter
...but you can be kicked to death on the streets of Dublin by a lager lout.

...who's probably a smoker...

Where are you getting the figure of 25c per cigarette in lost revenue for the government? How much is a pack of 20 these days? And are you telling me the tax take is €5 per packet?

DublinWriter

No, I'm not telling you tax on a packet of 20 is €5, silly me, I think it's exactly €5.12 now.

No probably about it, I am a smoker.

therecklessone

Originally posted by DublinWriter

No probably about it, I am a smoker.

And a lager lout?

How much for a pack of 20 these days?

DublinWriter

Around €6.30 here for most brands for 20.

DublinWriter

Originally posted by ZENER
No matter what I say here will be seen as an excuse but I'll try to explain without disagreeing with your points.

I agree. I think the coin slots were a poor idea. They were introduced to provide some organisation to the trolly situation which was getting out of control. At peak times prior to their introduction the trolly section were finding it near impossible to keep enough trollies available in the baggage hall for arriving passangers, the coin slots have helped here. It's not a lazyness thing as you suggest. Most of the passengers arriving at Dublin are from Europe and will have Euro currency which they can break up at the change machines provided. If you can suggest a better system taking what I've said into account then tell us.

Tell you what, next time you're in any terminal in Heathrow, take a seat for an hour in view of the checking-in areas and see how it's done properly.

Originally posted by ZENER

Explained above. You can thank Al Queda (sp?)or George W. for the security situation and Airport Security for preventing that happening here.

So people weren't being screened properly before? Tsk tsk!

No, I'll thank Aer Rianta for not pulling enough security staff on duty to handle the screening at peek times.

Yes I know it costs more money, but maybe they should have used some of the €6million they recently flushed down the toilet on consultants reports for the failed T2 propopsal at Dublin Airport?

Originally posted by ZENER

A little strong in my opinion. There is more than just Aer Rianta involved at the airport, hundreds of large and small private companies provide you with most of the services you use there - are they part of your gripe?

Nope - purely Aer Rianta. I'm trying to work with you here and find someone else to point the finger at, but no, purely Aer Rianta.

therecklessone

Dublin Writer,

I'm not seeking at absolve Aer Rianta of any blame for problems at Dublin Airport. I don't agree its as bad as people make out, but there are obvious concerns.

However, as an ex-Aer Rianta employee, and as somebody who still works in within the airport I can assure you there is more to it than meets the eye.

Who would you blame if your bags don't arrive until 2 hours after getting off the plane? Most people blame Aer Rianta (I know, I was on the receiving end for the entire summer of 1998), but I know it can often be the airline or handling agent thats at fault. Sunday mornings were notoriously abysmal, due to the airline's inability to get staff to work Saturday nights (leading into Sunday morning). Result? Two Aer Lingus crews unloading up to 10 holiday flights at a time, most of which were Boeing 737s (they took longer to unload, aircraft were not containerised).

Who would you blame for 400 people crowding around one baggage belt (Belt 1 at the time) while the other 4 were empty. Aer Rianta for assigning the flights to that belt? Or Ryanair for insisting that they do exactly that(and when we assigned the odd flight to the adjacent belt 2 the Ryanair loaders dumped the bags on belt 1 anyway, and left Aer Rianta staff to sort out the mess)

I once had Aer Lingus announce to a half-empty baggage reclaim that the delay in delivery of bags from a transatlantic flight was due to congestion in the baggage hall...this despite there not being a bag in sight when I went out to investigate and the flight not even being on stand yet! Of course, it suited the airline to blame Aer Rianta rather than address their own shortcomings.

Check the article posted in the commuting/transport by Victor which shows that many airlines are in breach of airport bye-laws which are intended to address check-in delays at the airport. It takes two to tango.

DublinWriter

Actually, I never had a bag go astray in Dublin Airport in all my years of regular flying. Baggage handling is one of the things done well. I wouldn't have a complaint about that at all. Maybe I’m just lucky.

But regarding baggage reclaim, the thing I would have a complaint about was the shoddy state that Aer Rianta allowed the Baggage Reclaim hall to remain in during the refurbishments.

I was flying in and out on a weekly basis for most of 2002/2003 and for a nearly a nine-month period the place resembled a building site with the entire suspended ceiling stripped out.

Yes, I do realise that when there's work in progress things can look messy, but there is no excuse for Aer Rianta allowing their contractors to leave the place in such a state for almost a year.

Not only was this a great welcome for tourists, but also a *massive* security risk. Wasn’t there some incident during that period involving people hiding up in the crawlspaces until the airport was closed and then climbing down to knick stuff from Duty Free at night?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, we don't do 'service' well in this country, especially not in semi-state organisations who basically see their customers as problems to be managed, rather than opportunities.

My 'gripes', as you put them, are actually legitimate customer complaints because I pay Aer Rianta royally for the privilege of arriving in and departing from Dublin airport as part of my ticket fee.

…and remember, the airlines are your customers too. If you have gripes, sorry, complaints about the misuse of your facilities by the airlines then it’s up to Aer Rianta management to write up and enforce an acceptable usage policy.

Personally I think the Air Corps should move west of the Shannon and Baldonnel should be opened up for commercial traffic as Dublin’s second airport.

Monopolies are never good things, especially semi-state ones.

therecklessone

Originally posted by DublinWriter


My 'gripes', as you put them, are actually legitimate customer complaints because I pay Aer Rianta royally for the privilege of arriving in and departing from Dublin airport as part of my ticket fee.

…and remember, the airlines are your customers too. If you have gripes, sorry, complaints about the misuse of your facilities by the airlines then it’s up to Aer Rianta management to write up and enforce an acceptable usage policy.

Not too sure who you're responding to here. The airlines aren't my customers any more (not in this sense anyway) since I am an ex-Aer Rianta employee, and it was Zener who referred to your "gripes"...

If you're too stubborn to accept that there are a number of aggrevating factors outside of the airport authority which affect service standards at Dublin Airport then there's little I can do to change your mind.

Interestingly I agree with you regarding Baldonnel. I don't see a 2nd terminal at Dublin as the answer to competition, and I don't see any reason why the infrastructure which exists at Casement should go to waste. Open it up to commercial traffic, and use the money we make to provide necessary equipment for the defence forces. Its win win all round.

MadsL

I asked once at Dublin why I had to take my laptop out of it's case. No other airport does this. I was told that it was 'procedure'. Time to upgrade the machines methinks.

Also they often turn the metal detectors up full blast, this means even your fillings sets it off and everyone has to be searched...big queues naturally.

Also they constantly do the "having to walk round and round the queuing barriers, even tho' there are only three people queuing" thing.

Security suck at Dublin.

therecklessone

Originally posted by MadsL
I asked once at Dublin why I had to take my laptop out of it's case. No other airport does this. I was told that it was 'procedure'. Time to upgrade the machines methinks.

I'll accept correction on this, but I'm told this happens in the states as well. Can anyone confirm/deny? I did find myself having to take my new para boots off a while ago to be put through the x-ray machine which I thought was strange, but what ya gotta do...

Originally posted by MadsL
Also they often turn the metal detectors up full blast, this means even your fillings sets it off and everyone has to be searched...big queues naturally.

Personally I find the detectors at Dublin go off less often than at other airports. I have a belt with a metal buckle that always sets off machines in the UK, but never in Dublin...

Originally posted by MadsL
Also they constantly do the "having to walk round and round the queuing barriers, even tho' there are only three people queuing" thing.

Security suck at Dublin.

The same is used in Stansted, and I waited 40 minutes four weeks ago to get through theirs. Stansted is run by BAA.

DublinWriter

Security at every aiport has it's own quirks and foybles. Once at Manchester I was asked not only to take out my laptop, but to boot it up and show it working. This was just after Canary Wharf bombing.

Marzipan has the same consitancy as semtex, so there used to be lots of fun in Heathrow when the X-Ray machines lit up likes Christmas Tree when old biddies used to bring over cake when visiting their relatives.

We are once asked at Charleroi airport to 'place all our guns and bombs on zee belt pleeeese'

therecklessone

Originally posted by DublinWriter

We are once asked at Charleroi airport to 'place all our guns and bombs on zee belt pleeeese'

ZENER

So people weren't being screened properly before? Tsk tsk!

No, I'll thank Aer Rianta for not pulling enough security staff on duty to handle the screening at peek times.

Simpler still why not blame the passengers who choose to ignore the warnings not to bring scissors, knitting needles, cutlery etc. who then have to be searched and cautioned about the infringements.

Yes I know it costs more money, but maybe they should have used some of the €6million they recently flushed down the toilet on consultants reports for the failed T2 propopsal at Dublin Airport?

Links ???

@ therecklessone: Some people have a preconceived and moulded idea of everything semi-state on several occasions I've addressed the MONOPOLY issue but dublinwriter does not want to acknowledge or address this issue - O'Leary's brother/cousin perhaps ??!!

But regarding baggage reclaim, the thing I would have a complaint about was the shoddy state that Aer Rianta allowed the Baggage Reclaim hall to remain in during the refurbishments.

There were various reasons for this - top of the list is that to do the work at the time would have interfered with the operation of the baggage hall causing delays due to some belts needing to be closed. Secondly - being a Government agency Aer Rianta are required to adhere to the rules re payment to contractors. A common occurrence in the private sector is the lack of responsibility - have you any idea how difficult it is to get a contractor to come back and sort out his f****d up job ? Obviously not !!

Not only was this a great welcome for tourists, but also a *massive* security risk. Wasn’t there some incident during that period involving people hiding up in the crawlspaces until the airport was closed and then climbing down to knick stuff from Duty Free at night?

Folklore ! Determined contrabaan smugglers devised an idea whereby they would hide their smuggle fags above the ceiling for later collection from a strategic point landside, this plan was discovered and terminated and it had more to do with airlines leaving security doors wedged open with baggage than the absence of ceiling tiles near belts 1 - 5 in the baggage hall.

…and remember, the airlines are your customers too. If you have gripes, sorry, complaints about the misuse of your facilities by the airlines then it’s up to Aer Rianta management to write up and enforce an acceptable usage policy.

Aer Rianta introduced a bylaw regarding the "manning" of checkin desks for a period of time prior to departure of the aircraft - Guess who the biggest objector was - Ryanair - they even went as far as appealing it to court - how is that for customer service - the purpose of this bylaw was to reduce the congestion you spoke of earlier !! We just can't win it seems !

Monopolies are never good things, especially semi-state ones.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~johncasey/irlwairport.htm - work it out and move on !

I asked once at Dublin why I had to take my laptop out of it's case. No other airport does this. I was told that it was 'procedure'. Time to upgrade the machines methinks.

A common comment from passengers - the fact is the newer X-Ray machines in use at Aer Rianta airports use a lower intensity xray emitter that previous machines due to concerns of cancer by operators. The reason the computer is removed from the case is so the computer and the case may be screened seperately. The x-ray machines are capable of discerning very small wire gauges in baggage - removing the computer from it's case improves the detection.

Also they often turn the metal detectors up full blast, this means even your fillings sets it off and everyone has to be searched...big queues naturally.

The lesser of two evils - which would make you feel safer flying. The metal detectors detect across 4 different zones from the feet up to the head which has the effect of reducing nuisance alarms compared to the earlier machines single zone.

Also they constantly do the "having to walk round and round the queuing barriers, even tho' there are only three people queuing" thing.

heh heh always reminds me of that scene from Shrek !!;)

We are once asked at Charleroi airport to 'place all our guns and bombs on zee belt pleeeese'

. . and did you ???:D

ZEN

de5p0i1er

Originally posted by therecklessone
This one's been done to death, but here's a quick reminder...

YOU CAN'T DIE OF CANCER FROM SECOND HAND BEER FUMES!

Now move on...

But you can't kill someone by having to many cigarettes and driving afterwards. And for the record there is no scientific proof that second hand smoke is harmfull, until someone can show me some proof that second hand smoke can kill someone I'm not going to listen to ppl saying its endangering there health its not.

pete

Originally posted by de5p0i1er
...for the record there is no scientific proof that second hand smoke is harmfull, until someone can show me some proof that second hand smoke can kill someone I'm not going to listen to ppl saying its endangering there health its not.

random googling:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/thehealthnews.html?in_article_id=303046&in_page_id=1797

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=244515&in_page_id=1774

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=181139&in_page_id=1770

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2844703.stm

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=111&sid=4963380



on the other hand, maybe it's just all a coincidence.

edit: more?

http://www.bupa.co.uk/health_information/html/health_news/270503smoke.html

http://www.no-smoking.org/nov97/11-21-97-4.html

http://www.ash.org.uk/html/conduct/html/tobexpld6.html

http://www.heartfoundation.com.au/downloads/passive%20smoking.htm

therecklessone

Originally posted by de5p0i1er
until someone can show me some proof that second hand smoke can kill someone I'm not going to listen to ppl saying its endangering there health its not.

Are you not?

US Environmental Protection Agency:

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/etsfs.html

http://cfpub1.epa.gov/ncea/cfm/recordisplay.cfm?deid=2835

In 1992, the EPA completed its risk assessment on The Respiratory Health Effects of Passive Smoking: Lung Cancer and Other Disorders and concluded that the widespread exposure to ETS [Environmental Tobacco Smoke] in the United States presents a serious and substantial public health impact. More specifically, EPA concluded that ETS is a human lung carcinogen, responsible for approximately 3,000 lung cancer deaths annually in U.S. nonsmokers. Furthermore, infants and young children are especially sensitive to ETS. In children, ETS exposure is causally associated with: 1) an increased risk of lower respiratory tract infections such as bronchitis and pneumonia. (EPA estimates that 150,000 to 300,000 cases annually in infants and young children up to 18 months are attributable to ETS.), 2) an increased prevalence of fluid in the middle ear, symptoms of upper respiratory tract irritation, and small reductions in lung function, and 3) additional episodes and increased severity of symptoms in children with asthma. (EPA estimates that up to 1 million asthmatic children have their condition worsened by exposure to ETS.) ETS exposure may also be a risk factor for the development of new cases of asthma.

Australia's National Health and Medical Research Council:

http://www.health.gov.au/nhmrc/advice/nhmrc/

The review of the scientific evidence found positive associations between passive smoking and the following diseases: asthma in children, lower respiratory illness, lung cancer, major coronary events and other illnesses.

ABC News:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/ABCNEWSSpecials/smoking_010705_passive.html

according to JAMA, women living with smokers are not the only ones at high risk. At bars and restaurants, for example, cigarette smoke is in the air. According to the journal, women in the study exposed to as little as two hours a week for over six months had a 50 percent greater risk of developing lung cancer than non-exposed women.

And its all off-topic, so thats my final contribution on it.

ZENER

Some people just can't see the woods for the smoke I guess !!!

The smoke that you don't inhale contains all sorts of chemicals - check this out - enter your brand and find out what it contains.

Anyway this is totally off topic for this thread !!:(

ZEN

BUMP!

Few comments...

Smoking ban: Fair enough people should be allowed to go out without smoke blowing in their face but there were alternatives that wouldn't have been such a burden...

- Set minimum air-conditioning requirements: This would ensure that there is no appreciable ETS and that it is at least no more detrimental than standing in town on a busy day (exhaust fumes).

- Tax breaks for non-smoking pubs: If there were significantly cheaper pints at a non-smoking pub you would wean people off cigs more effectively and without the drama. Also you would get the younger people in (they've less money) which would stop the problem before it starts...

Trouble is these dont carry the prestige of a smoking ban...

Airport terminal: USE SHANNON!!! Much better and quicker if it supports your destination. Nothing flash - just a bus stop with a bar...

DublinWriter

Oh no, this is turning into a discussion on the smoking ban!

All I'll say it that in the same week in 2003 when Tim Allen didn't even receive a suspended/custodial sentenance for the possession of child porn during his court case, a guy in the circuit court in Dublin received a one week prison sentance for throwing a ciggie butt out of a car window on the Quays.

This basically tells you all you need to know about the mindset of this country these days.

We're now more English than the English themselves, with all our little red tape, rules and regulations.

LFCFan

Originally posted by ZENER
The lesser of two evils - which would make you feel safer flying. The metal detectors detect across 4 different zones from the feet up to the head which has the effect of reducing nuisance alarms compared to the earlier machines single zone.

Last year when I was going through Dublin Airport the Lower zone on the Metal Detector picked up on my metal plate in my leg. Same coming home from the Canaries. This year it didn't and even going through Boston and Baltimore nothing was detected even though in Boston we had to remove our shoes and get manually metal detected.

thejollyrodger

Also, every cig not smoked in a pub loses McCreepy 25c. That's 25c *per* cigarette folks, which by some quick back-of-cig packet maths I estimate will be a shortfall of shortfall of between €1.5bn and €2.5bn annually

The thing about the smoking ban was that ecomically it was better that the government generate less revenue from the fags since it cost more than the €2,5bn in health care associated with smokers than the actual revenue generated from smokers I used to smoke before I realised it was costing me a packet and I was always suffering from colds and nasty coughs, thankfully I quit.

Dublin Airport needs at least one or two terminals. It wouldnt cost the government anything extra so they should get on with it. Im in favour of making 3 independent airports. I think Shannon will be very profitable if it gets that European freight hub thing they are going for. Cork will do fine also. Many smaller airports around Europe can be operated on a profit, no reason why these cant.

The metro could also be built by a private company so they could start with that also. The construction of the LUAS looks like it has stopped with only 2 lines... bit of a joke if you ask me.

If they increased health care from €3bn to €12bn and there is no measurable increase in service then obviously there is something majorly wrong with the health care. They need structural reform BADLY!!

The stadia in Portugal also outlines the general RIP OFF IRELAND that prevails in this country... how many stadia have they built for the Bertie Bowl?? Even construction times in this country are pathetic.. the new landsdowne road wont be built till 2009 (the latest estimate) that WAY TO LONG..

Broadband is another joke, something that should be available to everyone for 512k@ €20/25 a month, like in the rest of Europe..

DublinWriter

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
The thing about the smoking ban was that ecomically it was better that the government generate less revenue from the fags since it cost more than the €2,5bn in health care associated with smokers than the actual revenue generated from smokers I used to smoke before I realised it was costing me a packet and I was always suffering from colds and nasty coughs, thankfully I quit.

Arrgghh!!! Didn't I explain this? Listen, and listen carefully - Non-smokers die too.

Sometimes they die from cancer and heart disease.

They arguement about saving money on healthcare is complete rubblish.

We all need extensive primary healthcare in the last years of our lives.

bonkey

Originally posted by DublinWriter
They arguement about saving money on healthcare is complete rubblish.

No. Its not complete rubbish. Its a simple application of logic combined with well-established fact.

Smoking-related illnesses are just that : illnesses related to smoking. They exist.

Reduce the amount of smoking and you reduce the amount of smoking-related illnesses.

Reduce the amount of smoking-related illnesses and you reduce the overhead that these specific illnesses place on the Health Service.

I'm not sure I agree with the notion that it will be a net gain, but your argument is like saying "there's no point wiping out illness X. After all, people get other illnesses too, so there's no net benefit."

jc

DublinWriter

Ok, here's how it works. Let me explain very simply how that statistic works.

All smoking related illnesses are terminal illnesses.

People generally don't recover from severe heart disease or lung cancer.

When smokers contract smoking related illness, they usually have a year of their lives left after the initial diagnosis.

Towards the end of *all* our lives, we consume 80% of the resources of hospital primary care that we will use in our entire lives.

Smokers are no different in this respect.

Non-smokers will require the same basic levels of primary healthcare in the last 1 to 2 years of their lives.

A leading actuary (yes he was a non-smoker) was interviewed on Radio 1 just before the smoking ban. He said that smokers actually cost the health services less as smoking related illness kill very quickly, unlike alzheimers and non-lung cancers which sometimes require 10+ years of intensive healthcare.

I'm not making the case for smoking, I'm just making the case for getting the facts straight.

The smoking ban was interesting because the non-smoking lobby were prepared to jump on any statistical band-wagon as long as it supported their view.

therecklessone

Originally posted by DublinWriter
Ok, here's how it works. Let me explain very simply how that statistic works.

All smoking related illnesses are terminal illnesses.

People generally don't recover from severe heart disease or lung cancer.

When smokers contract smoking related illness, they usually have a year of their lives left after the initial diagnosis.

Now I'm no expert in the field of medical science, but I'm relatively certain that people don't go from rosy health to spitting up lumps of nasty-coloured phlegm overnight.

The accounting doesn't start when the news come through that the patient has X number of years to live. There is usually a series of doctor/hospital visits involved before then, possibly treatment to control less serious medical conditions.

I'll take the example of my heavy-smoking mother. She hasn't been given the dreaded news, but she has cost the state (or taxpayer if you prefer) a fortune in visits, treatment and minor heart surgery. Will she only become a drain on the health service when a doctor tells her she has a year to live?

therecklessone

Originally posted by DublinWriter
Ok, here's how it works. Let me explain very simply how that statistic works.

All smoking related illnesses are terminal illnesses.

Not so.

The first link I found after Google search for "smoking related illness": http://www.cpmc.org/services/women/health/smoking.html

Direct smoking increases the chances of heart attack, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and emphysema and is associated with many other cancers. It will worsen symptoms from asthma, chronic bronchitis and allergies. It increases risk for peptic ulcer disease and it causes premature wrinkling of the skin and periodontal disease.

For women, tobacco has additional risks. Exposure to tobacco increases risk of infertility and results in health risks to the fetus and infant, through spontaneous abortion, pre-term birth, low birth weight and fetal or sudden infant death. It increases a woman's risk of menstrual irregularities, early menopause and accelerated osteoporosis.

Also, http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_10_2X_Cigarette_Smoking.asp?sitearea=PED (which is linked to by Philip Morris)

But not all of the health problems related to smoking result in deaths. In the year 2000, about 8.6 million people were suffering from at least one chronic disease due to current or former smoking, according to the CDC. Many of these people were suffering from more than one smoking-related condition. The diseases occurring most often were chronic bronchitis, emphysema, heart attacks, strokes, and cancer.