"Yes" landslide

arcadegame2004

Exit-poll saying "76%" yes. Where did the "No" campaign fo wrong, or was it just the absence of a credible argument on their part? Where they too emotive and not factual enough?

I am delighted that the referendum has passed

I feel that the "No" campaign was always going to be up against this, giving widespread public discontent and resentment at the exploitation of the GFA to get citizenship. When the intention of the GFA was being used against the spirit of that agreemenr, we had no choice but to change the Constitution so that the spirit of the GFA would be more accurately embodied therein e.g. the Citizenship rights were intended to be for NI Nationalists, not illegals.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Where did the "No" campaign fo wrong, or was it just the absence of a credible argument on their part? Where they too emotive and not factual enough?

You really need to read up on the tale of the Pot and his slanderous remarks made towards another kitchen appliance.
Just because people voted Yes, doesn't make this decision the right one.
But I'm sure you'll be happy, Ireland Uber Alles etc.

mike65

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
[BWhen the intention of the GFA was being used against the spirit of that agreemenr, we had no choice but to change the Constitution so that the spirit of the GFA would be more accurately embodied therein e.g. the Citizenship rights were intended to be for NI Nationalists, not illegals. [/B]

Surely you meant nationals?

Mike.

Samson

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
You really need to read up on the tale of the Pot and his slanderous remarks made towards another kitchen appliance.
Just because people voted Yes, doesn't make this decision the right one.
But I'm sure you'll be happy, Ireland Uber Alles etc.

Now, now.
No sour grapes please.

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Just because people voted Yes, doesn't make this decision the right one.

Yes it does. Remember, this is a democracy.

l3rian

hi frank

bizmark

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
.
Just because people voted Yes, doesn't make this decision the right one.
.

76% of the voteing population (well those that turned up anyway) has spoken so it is the right decision

mike65

I suspect a small side bar on the difference between right and correct coming up!

Mike.

chewy

which was the right decision on nice then?



you knew someone would bring it up

simu

Exit-poll saying "76%" yes. Where did the "No" campaign fo wrong, or was it just the absence of a credible argument on their part? Where they too emotive and not factual enough?

The Yes crowd was certainly just as, if not more, emotive and not factual enough. I don't think many people understood what they were being asked to vote about at all tbh. But now the government has done its act of pretending to solve the non-nationals "problem" and it can forget about it until it become politically useful to bring it up again. What a wonderful land we live in. :rolleyes:

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by chewy
you knew someone would bring it up

I was just about to say that, but I guess that's different isn't it. The government decided that was the wrong way to vote.
It's not sour grapes on my part btw, I've no vested interest in seeing this thing fail.
It's a sad day for this country when our constitution can be changed without any real concrete reasoning as to why it needs to be done. Only anecdotal evidence and here-say.

chewy

two polls showing how much knowledge ppl had of the issues in the last week or so if the referendum i heard one from before the campaining started saying 71% didn;t know what it was about


i didn't think enough people knew about before and i still think that...

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Samson
Yes it does. Remember, this is a democracy.

I fail to see how people voting through a change where no real evedience has been produced on why this change is needed is right.

l3rian

right and wrong are only opinions

so, the opinion of the majority being yes, makes this amendment right

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by l3rian
so, the opinion of the majority being yes, makes this amendment right

And if the reasons given to vote yes were wrong/misleading (which I still believe the reasons given were) then how does it make the decision the right one?
If 100 people tell 10 that black is white, does it make it true?

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Chewy
which was the right decision on nice then?

To be fair, Chewy, the second Nice referendum wasn't quite the same as the first one. THe second one inserted a provision into the Irish Constitution requirinf the Irish Government to veto any Irish involvement in any EU common-defence policy. This addressed the main concerns of the voters that led to the first "No" vote, or rather addressed the concerns of a number sufficient to swing the vote to a "Yes"

l3rian

And if the reasons given to vote yes were wrong/misleading (which I still believe the reasons given were) then how does it make the decision the right one?

wrong/misleading in your opinion, others had the opinion that the reasons given were right/notmisleading

If 100 people tell 10 that black is white, does it make it true?

truth doesnt come into it, this is politics were public opinion is the judge of what is right and wrong

billy the squid

Waterford voted 80.9 19.0 in favour of the amendment

are we likely to see this trend through out the country?

DMC

From the sounds of the tallymen, they are not watching it, as its too clear cut. Most are expecting more than 2:1.

Cork

Not surprised. A majority of each party was in favour.

FF were the only party who put up posters and canvassed for a Yes vote in my area.

SF and Labour were no where to be seen.

dudara

I'm incredibly disappointed at this. I went home yesterday to vote No, and spoke to both my parents about their votes. They both voted Yes, but each had a different reason why, neither being a correct reason. My father wanted to keep "the lazy black men" out, and my mother didn't want rich men buying passports. Where did these reasons come from?

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Dudara
They both voted Yes, but each had a different reason why, neither being a correct reason. My father wanted to keep "the lazy black men" out, and my mother didn't want rich men buying passports. Where did these reasons come from?

The point your mother made seems fair in the light of the Chen case. At the very least, her wealth was a reason cited by the European Court of Justice for her and her husband deriving EU-residency from her child - whom she was advised to give birth to by her own lawyer:p

dudara

Actually I thought my mother had a very valid point and her concern was far more reasoned than my dad's. But neither of them seemed to realise that they were handing power for citzenship rights to the biggest crowd of crooks in the country.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by l3rian
truth doesnt come into it, this is politics were public opinion is the judge of what is right and wrong

This is the constitution we're talking about. Changing the law of our land shouldn't be looked on like that.

Jivin Turkey

Yes, and the constitution should be changed to however the people decide. A 76% majority speaks for itself really.

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
This is the constitution we're talking about. Changing the law of our land shouldn't be looked on like that.

To be frank, neither should the views of perhaps three quarters of those that voted, that would be a substantial majority.
If it was 51% your concerns might be understandable, but its looking like three quarters of those that voted disagree with your stance.
I suggest you accept this.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by Earthman
To be frank, neither should the views of perhaps three quarters of those that voted, that would be a substantial majority.
If it was 51% your concerns might be understandable, but its looking like three quarters of those that voted disagree with your stance.
I suggest you accept this.

3/4? It's looking far more like 4/5th's.

Citizenship Referendum Yes 79.29% No 20.71% After 2/34 Counts

billy the squid

Two more constituencies results in

Liemrick City and Monaghan. both voting yes. It is startihng to look like a ratio of 4:1 in favour of this ammendment.

Cork

It is a clear endorsement by the people for putting this question to them.

DMC

Meath the most emphatic Yes so far... 83.23% Yes

ArthurDent

Originally posted by Cork
It is a clear endorsement by the people for putting this question to them.

Ya think?

I don't think people were asked if they thought they needed the constitution changed

they were presented with it as a fait acompli and asked to accept or reject the proposed wording.

imho

Still sick as a parrot about the result though ,

article6

Originally posted by ArthurDent
I don't think people were asked if they thought they needed the constitution changed

Does that matter? The vast majority wanted the constitution changed, otherwise they would have voted NO. Whether or not we like the result does not matter.

Samson

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
I fail to see how people voting through a change where no real evedience has been produced on why this change is needed is right.

I know why change was needed; abuse of the current situation.
Pregnant parasites (or citizenship tourists if you want use less realistic language) turning up so that they can benefit from our overly generous welfare state.

And please don't quote the example of the Irish going to America for a better life etc; the Irish went abroad for a better life certainly, but they did so with the intention of earning a better life by hard work.
I have no problem with legal immigrants coming to this country to work and contribute to society and the exchequer, this is not the case with a significant tranche of these illegal immigrants, who just wish to come here and suckle off the state.

RicardoSmith

I think the YES vote was reasonable.

chewy

on the bassi of tallys and polls as that mostly was avail at the time

it exit polled got the 76% yes then asked why you voted afaik it

was 26% immigration system being abused

22% too many immigrants

14% fall in line with europe

15%????

ahh im guessing can someone fill in the rest

yerone put it to mcdowell that it was the third reason was the reason he put across and the second reason (and first reason) that was basicly misjudged or racist...

pete

Originally posted by Samson
I know why change was needed; abuse of the current situation.
Pregnant parasites (or citizenship tourists if you want use less realistic language) turning up so that they can benefit from our overly generous welfare state.

And please don't quote the example of the Irish going to America for a better life etc; the Irish went abroad for a better life certainly, but they did so with the intention of earning a better life by hard work.
I have no problem with legal immigrants coming to this country to work and contribute to society and the exchequer, this is not the case with a significant tranche of these illegal immigrants, who just wish to come here and suckle off the state.

I didn't think there was any place for racism on the politics board. I suppose that's exactly the kind of bull**** one would expect from someone with an adolf hitler avatar.

Tuars

The result shows a lot about the type of people we are: mean-spirited and just plain mean. The Me-generation.

sceptre

Originally posted by chewy
on the bassi of tallys and polls as that mostly was avail at the time

it exit polled got the 76% yes then asked why you voted afaik it

was 26% immigration system being abused

22% too many immigrants

14% fall in line with europe

15%????

ahh im guessing can someone fill in the rest

yerone put it to mcdowell that it was the third reason was the reason he put across and the second reason (and first reason) that was basicly misjudged or racist...

"Fall into line with Europe" was 20%

Your 15% gigure was "immigrant children shouldn't automatically get citizenship"

dudara

I think the result shows that we are, in general, a nation who went to the polls ill-informed and unaware that we are handing the right to citzenship to a shower of tos*ers in the dáil.

I personally think that review of the immigration system is needed, but amending the constitution in such a hurry is not the solution. I'm very disappointed with my country today. But it is a democracy and the people have voted.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Samson
[B

And please don't quote the example of the Irish going to America for a better life etc; the Irish went abroad for a better life certainly, but they did so with the intention of earning a better life by hard work.
I have no problem with legal immigrants coming to this country to work and contribute to society and the exchequer, this is not the case with a significant tranche of these illegal immigrants, who just wish to come here and suckle off the state. [/B]

Thousands of Irish went to the US as illegal immigrants and worked while there. How do you feel about them?

arcadegame2004

Actually 36% cited "Immigrants are exploiting the country". I know cos I saw it on RTE Election 2004.

I felt this very strongly. Not that ALL are doing so. But that MANY are. So it isn't a racist sentiment. We didn't mean ALL immigrants.

pete

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Actually 36% cited "Immigrants are exploiting the country". I know cos I saw it on RTE Election 2004.

I felt this very strongly. Not that ALL are doing so. But that MANY are. So it isn't a racist sentiment. We didn't mean ALL immigrants.

Brilliant. I can't wait for the new improved Ireland now that the black babies can't take our jobs.

Don't you have a debate to ruin somewhere?

article6

Originally posted by pete
Brilliant. I can't wait for the new improved Ireland now that the black babies can't take our jobs.

Why are you bringing racism into the debate? "Vote NO or you're a racist" is, admittedly, a good slogan, but it's hardly the stuff of rational argument.

arcadegame2004

Thousands of Irish went to the US as illegal[/i] immigrants and worked while there. How do you feel about them?

I feel that most Irish people who went to the US in a life-or-death situation i.e. the Famine and had no choice. They were GENUINE asylum-seekers, as it were, unlike those who come to Ireland to claim asylum, after crossing several other EU states' national-boundaries looking for the most generous systems. Sending them back to the first EU state of entry would not entail any danger for them. If the language barrier is an issue they can claim asylum in the UK. After all, 80% of our asylum-seekers get here via NI and most others get here via the mainland UK.

Our economic-migrants of an illegal nature who went to the US need also to be seen in a different context from asylum-spongers here (93% of asylum-applications rejected last year justifies this characterisation sorry!). Why? Because the US, unlike Ireland, is a former colony, and therefore a country built on immigration, without which the US and nearly all the other jus-soli states would not exist (South American countries, Australia and New Zealand for example). So in that sense the US is VERY different from the ancient nations of Europe like Ireland.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Samson
I know why change was needed; abuse of the current situation.
Pregnant parasites (or citizenship tourists if you want use less realistic language) turning up so that they can benefit from our overly generous welfare state.

You completely missed the point of this whole thing didn't you?

flogen

the referendum issue can sadly be used by racists for their own means, but that doesnt make the proposal racist.

I personally think that review of the immigration system is needed, but amending the constitution in such a hurry is not the solution. I'm very disappointed with my country today. But it is a democracy and the people have voted.

couldnt agree with this more, this is no fix, there are alot of issues to be sorted out, however I felt there was a loophole in the irish constitution, and so I voted to seal it, I showed FF that I wasn't buying their tripe that this would solve all, however, by voting to get rid of them (on a local and european level, at least for now).

Flogen

therecklessone

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I

Our economic-migrants of an illegal nature who went to the US need also to be seen in a different context from asylum-spongers here (93% of asylum-applications rejected last year justifies this characterisation sorry!). Why? Because the US, unlike Ireland, is a former colony, and therefore a country built on immigration, without which the US and nearly all the other jus-soli states would not exist (South American countries, Australia and New Zealand for example). So in that sense the US is VERY different from the ancient nations of Europe like Ireland.

Cop out.

Thousands left this country to enter the US illegally and work there in the 1980s. And they were illegal because the US authorities did not want them! Yet they went over and took jobs that could have gone to US citizens, or legal immigrants.

Economic migrants come to this country to better themselves. They want our standard of living (and who can blame them) and most are prepared to work hard to achieve it. It is official policy that denies them that right.

In addition, unless we as a community do something drastic, we will face the same demographic problems that our European partners are currently plauged with (i.e. an aging population and a low birth rate). Immigration is good for our economy.

pete

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
the ancient nations of Europe like Ireland.

uhhh hello? ancient?

we haven't even had the 1916 centenary yet ffs.

pete

Originally posted by article6
Why are you bringing racism into the debate? "Vote NO or you're a racist" is, admittedly, a good slogan, but it's hardly the stuff of rational argument.

go tell it to the exit poll respondents that gave "keeping the darkies out" as their reason for voting yes.

note: I'm paraphrasing

flogen

sorry pete, but thats some major paraphrasing there.

Maybe you were refering to the 'too many immigrants' reason, but thats no where near saying 'keep blackies out'. Sure, some may have wanted to say that, and meant that by saying this, but to generalise and say all gave this reason because they want the blacks out is just pure ignorance.

Flogen

pete

Originally posted by flogen
generalise and say all gave this reason

And where did i suggest this, exactly?

When i said

go tell it to the exit poll respondents that gave "keeping the darkies out" as their reason for voting yes.

you will note that i didn't say "go tell it to all of the" or anything like that - I was specifically referring to the 48% of Yes voters that gave their reasons as:

26% immigration system being abused

22% too many immigrants

Any clearer?

edit: ha sometimes I read too fast. i see the point you were making, but I stand over what I said above. I've heard both of those reasons made as statements too many times over the years, usually prefaced with "I'm not racist, but...."

sceptre

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
the US, unlike Ireland, is a former colony

The what now?

Ireland has long been categorised as the first colony that England got, the US as the first one that they lost


(for various reasons (most of which make sense) historians don't tend to include France)