Computer Science/Computer Applications...?

Fianna

UCD offer a BSc in Computer Science, while DCU offer a BSc Computer Applications...is there much of a difference between the two? Not just in relation to coursework, but also in relation to employment; is one seen as being better than the other?

Any help would be great, thanks.

seamus

Originally posted by Fianna
UCD offer a BSc in Computer Science, while DCU offer a BSc Computer Applications...is there much of a difference between the two? Not just in relation to coursework, but also in relation to employment; is one seen as being better than the other?

All degrees are essentially equal. Very few employers would weigh one against another unless a job was very specific.

I went to UCD. It's largely theory based. Almost all of your exams are done with a pen and paper instead of a computer. It's useful for a programming job or a research and design job, but not so much for real-life stuff such as web programming, systems admin, networking, etc.

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by seamus
I went to UCD. It's largely theory based. Almost all of your exams are done with a pen and paper instead of a computer. It's useful for a programming job or a research and design job, but not so much for real-life stuff such as web programming, systems admin, networking, etc.

Bloody right you LEARN nothing!!, kid stay away from UCD, I'm in 3rd year and we have only ever just lightly touched two languages Java and C++. Compared to other Uni's and around studs from other Uni's we always seem out of our depth:dunno:. The theory they teach is damn useless aswell.

seamus

Originally posted by OfflerCrocGod
Bloody right you LEARN nothing!!, kid stay away from UCD, I'm in 3rd year and we have only ever just lightly touched two languages Java and C++. Compared to other Uni's and around studs from other Uni's we always seem out of our depth:dunno:. The theory they teach is damn useless aswell.

It's true. Although most of the best people in the course will be extremely capable and well experienced in computers, it's because of pure interest. A lot of people come out of this course with honours degrees, but only a basic knowledge of standard apps, and pretty much everything else you'd take for granted with a computing student. There are secretaries with better IT skills than some of these people. There is no taught Linux (although it is used, you only are taught what you need to know to get the job done - yacc and lexx). There are no specifics. A person who has never used a Windows system or configured a machine for ethernet networking, for example, will come out of the course no better off unless they consult their classmates, a book, or the internet.

$lash

the BSc in Computer Science at DIT - is the best computing degree in Ireland IMO

Fianna

That's interesting about UCD...I also don't like the fact that it's mandatory to do a science subject, science not being my strong point at all. And it's bloody miles away...

I was wondering about the difference between Computer Science and Computer Applications because every computer job advert I've seen seemed to require a degree in Computer Science, but from what you're saying they're seen as the same thing.

In that case it's definately DCU or DIT. Why do you say DIT offers the best computing degree in Ireland $lash? I like the fact that it seems purely computer based; no languages or science subjects, just a business element from what I can make out. DCU seems similar.

Thanks for the help, appreciate it.

$lash

Originally posted by Fianna
Why do you say DIT offers the best computing degree in Ireland $lash?

im doing (ft228) computer science in DIT at the minute and it is a far more comprehensive course than computer apps in DCU and the UCD course - in fact several people have transferred over from DCU & UCD to the DIT course - it offers the most hands on & practical approach to computing as the others put far too much emphasis on theory without spending anytime in labs whereas with DIT its split 50/50 between theory & practical - a language is an option on the course

Gavin

I believe that currently UCC are one of the most respected institutions for CS.

There is no diff between CS and CA. A CS course should have theory in it. A degree teaches you how to learn new things quickly and how to understand things. Not necessarily how to do things. It gives you all the abilities and skills to learn how to do things quickly and efficiently.

College is what you make of it. Go to college, learn the theory and in your own time learn the practical.

Gav

Mick L

As Verb has said, there is a reason that certain computer science degrees don't go into specifics like how to administer a Windows 2000 based network, or how to program in one specific language. It's because the tools/programs/languages used in the industry are much too varied and change too rapidly for a degree course to keep up. Instead you're taught the basics you need, i.e. the theory behind how an OS works, how to program properly, etc so that you are not tied down to just what you've learned in college.

I'm sure most graduates will agree that what you learn in college only gives you a basis for what you will do in work, the learning never stops.

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by Mick L
I'm sure most graduates will agree that what you learn in college only gives you a basis for what you will do in work, the learning never stops.

Yes but in UCD you don't actually start learning at all:D, that happens after we are given our degrees - we learn on the job :rolleyes: I suppose. I repeat my advice UCD is useless - most people in didn't know what an IP address is until 3rd year we do NO Unix/Linux programming or any sort of usage at all . It seems as if though this is changing the 1st years seem to be doing stuff which is far more advanced then what we did - they are using IDEs :eek:!. Yes we have only started using them in 3rd year - some ppl still use basic notepad programs for java and dont know you can compile/run programs from the command line. It's rather disgraceful; but we have been one of the worst years for a while according to the lectures. Even the 2nd years are doing more then us in 3rd year :mad:.

hostyle

Originally posted by $lash
the BSc in Computer Science at DIT - is the best computing degree in Ireland IMO

How many computing degrees in different colleges have you done then?

Patrick

That course in DIT looks quite good from the website prospectous. I haven't looking into it before.
I'm pretty decidied on doing CA in DCU. Not only has the course been recommend to me by past-graduates but currents graduates too. I also like DCU's facilities... SunOS server, freebsd servers..etc. basically a great computer society (http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie).
There is also wireless lan access (802.11g) around the campus...pretty slick!

Also they are building or have built a swimming pool?

zoro

I'm pretty decidied on doing CA in DCU. Not only has the course been recommend to me by past-graduates but currents graduates too

I'll vouch for it too - the course is great, (pretty boring alot of the time though) but the college itself is a joke.

basically a great computer society (http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie).

aye! up the brick!!

There is also wireless lan access (802.11g)

There's a who in the what now?? When did this come out? I heard that it was due to happen, but I didnt expect it for another year at least!

Also they are building or have built a swimming pool?

yup, it'll be ready during the summer if I'm not mistaken - however I've heard that the membership only status of it could be a b|tch, not to mention the Total-Fitness stylee price tag of membership :dunno: We'll see though

Zoro, wanting to swim in the new pool

dent

The comp course in DIT is great nice mix of practical and theory.

I'd choose DCU because of resources mainly. More money = better lecturers. I went to DIT and know they are lacking in funds. Plus if you wanted to go on to do a masters or Phd DCU is the place to go.

DIT comp sci is really good though and comes in a close second. If they had more money it would be great.

To be honest you will do most of your learning when you get a job. The best piece of advice I can give to anyone doing comp sci is to try and get experience during the summer breaks. Lots of places offer summer internships and you will find this experience will stand to you when you leave.

zoro

I agree with the workplace learning allright.

I've learnt more about network topology and administration during INTRA work experience in third year (currently in INTRA now!) and working last summer in a Bank (same place that I'm in now)

The bank was then in the process of moving from TokenRing to Ethernet, and I learnt shedloads! There really is nothing like practical experience - it's worth more to alot of employers than a qualification.
Of course I had covered all the networking material in my CA course in DCU, but the hands on work I did involving the network was so much more beneficial that reading notes.

I've also heard that CA in DCU is the hardest of the Irish computing courses - I don't know if it's true or not as I haven't any other course experience to relate to, but I can tell you that it's not exactly a walk in the park

Winters

Originally posted by zoro
There's a who in the what now?? When did this come out? I heard that it was due to happen, but I didnt expect it for another year at least!

They have had a 802.11b network, or "Laplan" as its known for a while now. It covered about 1/2 the campus or so I think. Maybe more. They are going to be upgrading it to 802.11g soon enough or are in the precess of gdoing it now. DCU site should have more info on it somewhere.

And I'm in CA in DCU. Very good course if you are actually into programming and not just "computers". Many people do go to a computer course as they "like the internet" and such, they usually drop out during first year. They do a lot of Java programming aswell, which means its a lot easier to pick up other languages as all languages are quite similar.

I didnt like having to do part of the computing exam on paper though, silly imo. Ill be pack for repeats so.

uberwolf

Originally posted by seamus
A lot of people come out of this course with honours degrees, but only a basic knowledge of standard apps, and pretty much everything else you'd take for granted with a computing student.

It's like you know me

Honestly though, chap in 4th yr with me there spent 2 hrs one day figuring out what a for loop looked like. If looking to learn computers go elsewhere.

briano

I just Finished 228 in DIT (the computer science course)

I have to admit that the DCU course looks good, and is a tough enough course. How and ever:

The more money = better lecturers thing is crap. Trinity have loads of cash, yet their CS department is a joke. Some of the lecturers in DIT were really really good. Plus with the size of the classes (< 50 in mine at the most) you get to know the lecturers pretty well and they are really approchable.

Kevin St And Auinger St both have 11b networks already, KST is a touch unreliable though.

We have a Swimming Pool already. So there.

But if its a choice between DCU and UCD, then DCU. No Contest.

dent

Some of the lecturers in DIT where good. "Some" is right. It eqaully has a number of horrendous ones. The pool is tiny. Kevin St is a dump. Auinger St is nice. Money is a big issue. A prime example is the lack of funds to hire project supervisors. How many Doctors of Computer Science are there in DIT. Three I think. I won't name names.
Plus while they have plenty of Lab space only a few are dedicted to Comp Sci the rest are shared. Again I graduated from DIT. Its a great course but ask any lecturer in DIT and they will tell you money is a problem.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by Verb
I believe that currently UCC are one of the most respected institutions for CS.

LOL! May I ask where you heard that? The CS department here is a mess and the course a joke, so much so that even graduates from the IT's are favoured over us.

Gavin

I heard it from the head of a computing department in a dublin university. UCC was also recommended to me as the best place in ireland to do a doctorate in the comp. security area.

Gav

Illkillya

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
LOL! May I ask where you heard that? The CS department here is a mess and the course a joke, so much so that even graduates from the IT's are favoured over us.

Indeed... I got into 4th year CS in UCC, without going to any lectures or doing any study. In first year, someone told me what FIFO and Round Robin meant and luckily for me they've come up in every exam since then in some form If I were an employer, i would much faster go for the IT students, since they do so much work and actually know their stuff (CIT at least). True, this reflects badly on me personally and not the course, since its my fault I'm not learning the material that is being presented, but the fact is, I could come out with a 1h degree next year knowing almost nothing. Maybe its different in 4th year with final year project and stuff, but so far theres been nothing in 3 years of computer science that a few days reading internet tutorials wouldn't teach you more efficiently.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by Illkillya
In first year, someone told me what FIFO and Round Robin meant and luckily for me they've come up in every exam since then in some form

Was it Doherty? "Goes a'round robin'g!"

Originally posted by Illkillya
True, this reflects badly on me personally and not the course, since its my fault I'm not learning the material that is being presented, but the fact is, I could come out with a 1h degree next year knowing almost nothing.

In fairness, the revised course we're doing does seem to have improved a little, we did some neat stuff with databases and JDBC and we covered quite a bit of networking with Java. Despite that, if you asked most UCC students go out and connect two LAN's of differing topologies with a gateway and UTP with a wireless connection amoungst the nodes within each LAN you'd get some funny looks. Therein lies the problem, UCC students get little practical experience tending to rely on a vague general understanding of theory, in the long-term, this is useless and forgotten. CIT students actually have the chance to put what they learn into practice and take professionally accredited exams like the CISCO ones.

I'm only speaking for the undergraduate degree, maybe the postgraduate is a different kettle of fish.

Gavin

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
CIT students actually have the chance to put what they learn into practice and take professionally accredited exams like the CISCO ones.

This point has pretty much been covered already, but I would not expect graduates to leave college with knowledge pertaining to proprietary routing equipment. I'd expect the graduate to understand what ethernet is, what atm is, not how to write ios commands to link the two networks. What good is that proprietary knowledge when the grad moves on. ( I realise CCNA etc. qualification are slightly more general and not just restricted to ios, but you get the point )

Same with programming. A graduate should be able to program yes. Program in java, c++, c yes.
Be an expert in any. No.
Be able to pick up new languages easily, learn new features, understand how the language works. yes.

Producing graduates highly skilled in one particular area instead of giving them a general introduction to a wide area is very short sighted. I think that a lot of graduates are fall into this trap. A bit more thought about the topics covered on courses, rumination on how they may be useful in other aspects.

Anyway, it's all been said before. Students make what they will of college and it really is a case of you get back what you put in.

Gav

Jk_Eire

Ive a friends doing CS in UCD and I do computing in IT-Tallaght.
We have all completed 2nd year and besides the mathematics the two course are kinda simimlar.
Except for the amount of practical work I get in It-tallaght. Although its a pain in the ass the educational outcome really good. From day one we were given projects. Each becoming progressively harder incorpating the new stuff we did in lectures.
The two guys in UCD tell me its quite the opposite out there and it shows too.
They may have the upper hand in some of the theory but as regards putting stuff into practice and being able to talk about it the institute of technology student has the upper hand in my experience.
The projects we got in second year were good in the way that the you needed to be fairly up to scratch in all up your subjects if you wanted a decent grade. The projects took in aspects of most of the subjects.. like software developementm,database admin,network system and project managment
eg:
Create a hospital administration systems
Write it in Java(software development)..create valid tables in a databse..PKs,FKs,references etc.. to be used.(Database Admin) Your system must connect to your database and create,update and delete through a user friendly GUI(software developement)
Set up and configure two lans so the system can be used over a network(network Systems)
Finally plan,design,implement and test the entire system with full documentation (Project management)

This type of teaching puts almost everything you learn into practice.
Also projects like the above are usually team based and the guildlines arent too strict, this i think gives room for inovation amoung the students and encourages them to do more experimentation and broaden their knowledge beyound the curriculum

But as a college it-tallaght has money issues to and the facilities aint exactly the best out there. But everything you need is there but without the flair

Personally, as a MSc undergraduate in Computer Science at King's College London, I would have to note that Redbrick.dcu.ie/Tallaght is actually the most respected institute for real learning. But hey, most people want a laugh along the way so go where your friends are going and just grep all the other colleges for info as you go!!!

Best of Luck!!
(I did Law at UCD first btw)

zoro

Personally, as a MSc undergraduate in Computer Science at King's College London, I would have to note that Redbrick.dcu.ie/Tallaght is actually the most respected institute for real learning.

HA! You can learn more from redbrick (DCU's networking society) than you can from DCU itself? that made me laugh pretty hard
That'll go down well on the redbrick boards!

ravydavygravy

The two guys in UCD tell me its quite the opposite out there and it shows too.
They may have the upper hand in some of the theory but as regards putting stuff into practice and being able to talk about it the institute of technology student has the upper hand in my experience.

I agree with Jk, but at the same time realise that that's the way it's always going to be. The course in UCD is a Computer Science course, and as such such is supposed to be rooted firmly in theory. A Computer Applications course such as the one in IT Tallaght is supposed to be lite on theory and way more hands-on.

The problem lies with people not understanding the distinction before entering college - if you want to be a network admin, do a CompApp course (or something similar) - if you want to understand the principles behind algorithms and so forth, do a CompSci course. Hence you get people who want to be doing CompApps doing compSci and vice-versa.

To be honest, having done CompSci and then worked as a sysadmin, I found it pretty easy to pick up the bits I hadn't learned about hardware/networks (6 months on the job, and I was on top of things).

I now work in research, but can appreciate the frustration that some CompSci students experience. My advice is: bear with it! if you are half-way through a compsci course and wish you were monkeying around with network cables, join up with the college networking society (NetSoc or whatever the equivalent may be). Get an old PC from a skip, and stick linux on it. Get another and network them. It's not rocket science and I firmly believe the only way to learn it is to do it. A few months of using linux and you'll have a much better understanding of practical computing...

On that note, my lecture ends

Dave

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by Jk_Eire
The two guys in UCD tell me its quite the opposite out there and it shows too.
They may have the upper hand in some of the theory but as regards putting stuff into practice and being able to talk about it the institute of technology student has the upper hand in my experience.

Yes!, I had a *very* embarrassing interview with IBM for one of their internships (Deep Blue) wherein I could hear in the tone of the interviewers voice the shock at the lack of any practical work I had done in UCD. In three years we have done 2 projects a little game in 1st year:rolleyes: and a little app in third year - in teams of three:dunno:. We do and we know NOTHING. I could barely answer any of the tech questions I was asked what are Web Services and what is COBRA and SOAP, we don't look at these things in Uni the ones I could answer I knew from places like slashdot and boards and theReg (shallow knowledge in otherwords). I hear good things about DCU.

seamus

Originally posted by OfflerCrocGod
I could barely answer any of the tech questions I was asked what are Web Services and what is COBRA and SOAP, we don't look at these things in Uni the ones I could answer I knew from places like slashdot and boards and theReg (shallow knowledge in otherwords). I hear good things about DCU.

Quite unsurprisingly, the bulk of my knowledge, or at least the thing that led to me developing the bulk of my knowledge, was the amount of time I wasted on the Internet in college, failing my courses. The irony!

Wowza!!

Does this mean that the fact that I am currently checked in to mental rehabilitation and have failed every single exam this year while the love of my life has gotten a first in Computer Science as a Bsc while I am studying an Msc might not fall on deaf ears?

The fact that there is currently a tooth in police custody which was left in the place where the lap top was when they robbed everything I own might be understood by someone else as a necessary effect of free and open BSD?

btw I am serious.

but way off the point!!!!!

What I mean to say is, Beware: Computer Science at any college or university may lead to insanity!!

and whatever you do, compute it!

MrPinK

Originally posted by ravydavygravy
I agree with Jk, but at the same time realise that that's the way it's always going to be. The course in UCD is a Computer Science course, and as such such is supposed to be rooted firmly in theory. A Computer Applications course such as the one in IT Tallaght is supposed to be lite on theory and way more hands-on.

But the titles get juggled about so much that it's hard to generalise them as much any more. Doing a CompApp degree in DCU you'll cover some heavy CompSci stuff such as Data Structures & Algorithms, Language & Computability, Linear Algebra & Vectors, Complexity, Compilor theory, etc.