Decentralisation

The_Conductor

dresden8 wrote: »

It's interesting that all the economists who couldn't see what was happening or predict what was going to happen or were conviced there would be a "soft landing" are now full sure in hindsight that it was public servants all along who caused it to happen.

For fuck sake, you got it wrong every step of the way to this point, why is anybody listening to you now?

Pr1cks.

On the bright side- at least some of the economists are in the firing line- it would be nice if Austin Hughes and a few other luminaries joined the dole queues........

Note: I wasn't assuming you were being ironic- given some of the totally hairbrained comments and ideas previously expressed on this thread......

dresden8

smccarrick wrote: »

Note: I wasn't assuming you were being ironic- given some of the totally hairbrained comments and ideas previously expressed on this thread......

Forgiven, you Tiger killing functionary, you.

The_Conductor

dresden8 wrote: »

Forgiven, you Tiger killing functionary, you.

Its winter- and with all the energy price rises, I could do with a new coat. Now all I have to figure is how to tan the hides.......

dresden8

smccarrick wrote: »

On the bright side- at least some of the economists are in the firing line- it would be nice if Austin Hughes and a few other luminaries joined the dole queues........

And then they'll be complaining there's not enough staff in the exchange to deal with the huge numbers of unemployed.

That'll be gas.

Dinarius

smccarrick wrote: »

On the bright side- at least some of the economists are in the firing line- it would be nice if Austin Hughes and a few other luminaries joined the dole queues........

Not forgetting that bull-to-end-all-bulls, Bank of Ireland's Dr. (Ahem!) Dan McLaughlin.

A little humility from this lot wouldn't go amiss.

D.

The_Conductor

Dinarius wrote: »

Not forgetting that bull-to-end-all-bulls, Bank of Ireland's Dr. (Ahem!) Dan McLaughlin.

A little humility from this lot wouldn't go amiss.

D.

Particularly in light of the combative mood Brian Goggin et al were in while being interviewed on Morning Ireland this AM. He got EUR5m for running the bank over the past 2 years, and was pretty much admitting that they have identified 1.5 billion of seriously dodgy assets on their books (he dolled this up by saying how impressive it was when they had a loan book totaling almost 144 billion). He also tried to take credit for increasing their tier 1 capitalisation from 4.5% to about 6% (when most of the rest of the EU and the UK are already at well over 8%, and rising)........

Firetrap

From RTÉ 12/11/08

Over €230m spent on decentralisation so far

The Government has spent just over €230m on decentralisation, according to a series of Parliamentary Questions put down by Fine Gael TD John Deasy.

The sum is made up of €220.3m in property costs, and another €11.8m in non-property costs, for locations around the country.

Deputy Deasy said the total of 'close to a quarter of a billion euro' made this an expensive fiasco, and that while some civil servants have moved, this level of expenditure cannot be defended.

The Waterford TD said that some of the property purchased at the height of the boom would never be used for the intended purpose.

In his Budget Speech, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan said the Government had reviewed the decentralisation programme in the light of changed economic circumstances, and had identified 'priority elements' which will proceed as planned.

He said more than 2,500 public service posts had already moved to new locations outside Dublin, and that the priority elements would bring this figure up to 6,000.

The cost to date of €232m equates to €92,800 for each post which has been moved out of Dublin so far.

Click to look at a breakdown of property costs

ART6

I haven't read the many posts in this thread, but I do wonder about the point of trying to relocate civil service departments out of Dublin. Why is it more efficient to have the various departments scattered all around the country when the seat of government is Dublin? Oh, I imagine it would boost politician's expenses no end if they have to go to Sligo or Galway once a week to talk to their functionaries, but efficiency? hardly.

Let's face it, it is another cynical FF ploy to get votes. "Look, we are relocating a whole department to your town. More people spending money in your shops. More income to your council...."

I am not in the public services, but if I was and I was settled in Dublin, I might just suggest they feck off as many other CSs have done. I would not consider myself a tool to be used by FF for their cheap political tricks.

* Cheap??? Not well put ART6*

NewDubliner

From the Irish Times

ANALYSIS: There is only one credible explanation for the budgetary cuts that led to the resignation of the head of the Equality Authority: its valuable work was irritating the Government, writes Carol Coulter

TWO DAYS ago, chief executive of the Equality Authority Niall Crowley, chairwoman of its board Angela Kerins and another board member went to Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern with what they regarded as a modest proposal. It aimed to preserve the core activities of the authority in the light of a proposed cut of 43 per cent to its funding.

The proposal involved retaining as many as possible of its existing staff in what is a complex and technical area of law, where a high level of expertise has been developed over the 10 years of the authority's existence. It also wanted to receive funding to meet current contractual and other obligations.

The key to retaining at least a minimal staff was delaying the rest of the decentralisation to Roscrea. None of the remaining staff in Dublin are in a position to move to Roscrea, so if decentralisation was proceeded with (though the department acknowledges it has no permanent accommodation for the authority), these staff would be lost, to be replaced by others in the public service with quite different expertise.

The Minister has said that the office in Dublin is too expensive, though it will continue to be used by the Government when the Equality Authority leaves. However, Dublin is awash with empty office space, at prices not seen for more than 20 years. A modest office could be found for the remaining staff at relatively little cost.....

Meanwhile, plans are still on course to complete the new Department of Agriculture HQ in Portlaoise, a town much favoured by the Taoiseach.

The_Conductor

NewDubliner wrote: »

Meanwhile, plans are still on course to complete the new Department of Agriculture HQ in Portlaoise, a town much favoured by the Taoiseach.

Timeline changed again though- its now late 2011/early 2012. I can see myself having a 1000 mile weekly roundtrip- as I cannot sell my apartment, the bank won't lend me money for another and the market is awash in rental property....... It would all have worked out so well only 2-3 years ago.......

Firetrap

I wonder will this scheme get the axe courtesy of An Bord Snip?

NewDubliner

Firetrap wrote: »

I wonder will this scheme get the axe courtesy of An Bord Snip?

An accountant would try to unwind it. But, that would affect the builders of the new offices and houses in FF's favoured rural idylls and also the raises the dilemma of the what to do with the people who were hired to replace the existing Dublin-based workers and the duplication of functions that the project has created. Do they fire the original Dublin workers or the newly hired countryfolk?

More likely, it'll be put on ice and then trotted out as an election goody as needed.

It's already caused considerable devestation to knowledge-based areas and politicised a large number of previously apolitical civil servants. That will never be unwound.

With pay cuts, tax hikes and pension levies, we'll all be paying for FF's adventure in social engineering.

NewDubliner

From the Examiner:

Monday, March 16, 2009

€17m wasted on failed agency moves
by Mary Regan, Political Reporter

MORE than €17 million has been wasted on decentralisation sites across the country after the Government partly scrapped plans to move staff out of Dublin.

The Government has no plans to sell the sites, which have lost significant value, even though it has abandoned plans to build offices on them until public finances improve.

There are concerns that more decentralisation projects will be scrapped in next month’s supplementary budget after it emerged the Government has still not signed a contract for the Public Private Partnership construction of offices in three locations.

Sites worth €10.7m have been purchased in Mullingar, Portlaoise and Carlow under the contract. The Mullingar site cost the state €8.3m. A road into the site has been built, but it is looking unlikely that office space for 306 Department of Education staff will be built because the contract has not yet been signed.

In response to a recent Dáil question on the PPP contract, minister of state at the Department of Finance Martin Mansergh confirmed the contract was not signed. But he said "discussions are proceeding with the successful tenderer with a view to finalising financial closure and contract signing".

Under the plan, 10,000 civil servants were to move to 53 locations around the country. But in October’s budget, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan said a number of projects have been deferred "in light of the changed economic circumstances".

Close to e60m was already spent buying sites in 20 locations where construction has not yet begun. The Government intends to proceed in 14 of these cases. But six have been put off, leading to the waste of:

*€8m on a Waterford site.

*€2.1m on land in Dungarvan.

*€2.9m on land in Cavan.

*€1.8m on a site in Thomastown, Kilkenny, intended for 83 Health and Safety Authority staff.

*€1.5m on land in Edenderry for 44 FETAC staff and 34 HETAC staff.

*€967,500 on land in Thurles.

It hasn't gone away...no doubt it'll be warmed up before the next election.

Anyone know how much extra staff were hired in anticipation of populating these offices?

NewDubliner

From Today's Irish Times:

5,000 public servants stay put as decentralisation is unlikely
STEPHEN COLLINS

LATEST OFFICIAL figures show that plans to decentralise over 5,000 public servants have been deferred, while just 2,500 people have moved under the plan announced in 2003.

The figures from the Department of Finance show that another 3,500 public servants are still in the process of being decentralised but have not yet been moved.

Plans to move 5,140 people to 50 locations were deferred in the Budget and it is now widely accepted that the moves will never take place.
.....more

Odd that if the idea of decentralisation is supposed to save money, it's being cancelled because it costs too much.

ixoy

I seem to recall that if someone didn't want to move with their de-centralised department, they could opt out into another area - any figures on how many extra staff then the government had to employ as a result?

What an utter shambles that benefited so few people.

dresden8

ixoy wrote: »

What an utter shambles that benefited so few people.

That just about sums up Ireland since 1997.

The_Conductor

In all fairness- the banking crisis has bolloxed up things even for the privilleged few- the only people who have benefited are those who cashed in their chips and emigrated. Looking at the bust in Spain and Portugal too though- unless the lucky few kept the bulk of their assets in cash or treasury bonds- they are screwed no matter what they did.

I really hope that people see politicians for the charletans they are- I don't blame Fianna Fail tbh- I don't think Irish politicians have the stomach to govern. Our big problem is parochial politics- but it always has been. The culture where every little village is against the next village- who in turn feed into the county- and its county against county- and then the rest of the country against Dublin as a whole...... Its amazing anything happens in the dysfunctional mess.........

mike65

So then how many departments now have additional offices scattered about the place?

Dinarius

ixoy wrote: »

What an utter shambles that benefited so few people.

Yup.

....along with PPARS, Electronic Voting, the HSE, the Financial Regulator (when the Central Bank should have been left to do the job that the Regulator failed utterly to do) etc...etc....

But, 40% of us persist in voting for these criminals.

And thanks to the montsrous hubris of the ("you're either with us or against us") Green Party, we are soon to have a Broadcasting Authority of Ireland that will sit in parallel with ComReg. Incredible! Why couldn't they just broaden the remit of ComReg?

The Greens are demonstrating that they are as good at creating quangos as F.F.

But, I'm straying off topic........apologies to the moderator.

D.

Firetrap

Problem is that no party has the guts to turn around and cancel the whole thing for fear of upsetting voters in the towns pinpointed for decentralisation.

The_Conductor

Firetrap wrote: »

Problem is that no party has the guts to turn around and cancel the whole thing for fear of upsetting voters in the towns pinpointed for decentralisation.

The money quite simply isn't there. Given the uproar thats going to hit the media with the Children's Allowance announcement later today- and the other announcements due for next week- there is plenty of opportunity to parcel it with other worse news, and it'll get less scrutiny than it might otherwise do.

Our poor little country is screwed.......

Dinarius

Firetrap wrote: »

Problem is that no party has the guts to turn around and cancel the whole thing for fear of upsetting voters in the towns pinpointed for decentralisation.

Precisely. And why? Because of our stupid multi-seater system.

Every Thursday afternoon the cretins fall over one another in a race to get back to their constituencies first lest a competitor sort our Johnny's planning application, speeding fine, welfare application......whatever you're having yourself.

They're slaves to their constituents. If we were a real democracy with single seater constituencies, they could leave local politics to local politicians (i.e. city and county councillors) and get on with running this place.

They are first and foremost legislators, but you'd never think it.

D.

NewDubliner

From last week's 'Times' (UK):

Rural staff paid €1m travel costs
Civil servants travelling to the Republic capital for training received up to €12,000 compensation each
Colin Coyle

The government has spent more than €1m compensating 270 rural civil servants for travelling to Dublin to train before being decentralised.
...As decentralisation was not limited to civil servants working in the capital — staff already living in rural areas have been able to move to departments based in other parts of the country. First they had to be retrained in Dublin.
...
Decentralisation was originally designed to move civil servants out of the capital, but about half of the 10,000 who signed up for the scheme worked outside the capital....

The number of staff requesting a move from one rural area to another has added to difficulties with the programme. The government has spent almost €250m moving 2,500 civil servants out of Dublin, with moves for 5,000 more deferred. About 3,500 employees are currently being decentralised.

Given the unemployment situation in Dublin, how will FF justify paying people from outside Dublin to come and take the work of Dubliners?

The_Conductor

NewDubliner wrote: »

Given the unemployment situation in Dublin, how will FF justify paying people from outside Dublin to come and take the work of Dubliners?

Unfortunately- you know as well as I do that its all parochial politics. Fianna Fail aren't going to even try to justify anything to Dublin voters- in the grand scale of things- they will hold up those jobs they delivered to every little rural constituency as 'victories' against the Dublin jackeens. Seriously though- its actually quite alarming the hatred that many rural people have for Dublin- along with the manner every little town expects to have its own hospital and every possible facility and amenity. Is it any wonder we're borrowing 25 billion this year- and 19% of our total tax take in 2010 is going to be spent on servicing our national debt (26% in 2011, 34% in 2012 etc........)

The government- for all its failings, and by god its got many, has as its worst inditement a total failure to communicate with the public, and offer leadership of any nature whatsoever. At very best they have used firefighting tactics as they bounce from one emergency to another- at very worst they have percipitated the very emergencies that they are so poor at addressing.

Its almost laughable how politicians are drip feeding information, theories and scaremongering to the media- so we have the employed at loggerheads with the unemployed who have far more disposable income than they- we have the private sector versus the public sector- along with the myriad stories of waste and sloth, we have the taxpayers versus the fatcat bankers- and then when its all beginning to wear thin- they release the McCarthy report and allow Colm McCarthy to take the flak for a while- sure, he'll get off the hook as soon as the Commission on Taxation report in September......... Did anyone notice how there were no government spokespeople available to give a commentary on the Bord Snip report? Hardly an accident.........

So- the Shannon region has lost another 300 jobs, Intel in Leixlip has dropped 300 (and this was flagged months in advance here on Boards), there are single dole offices in some Dublin areas that have larger numbers of unemployed requiring benefits than multiple rural counties combined- but they're kept understaffed- and its the poor staff who get the flak.......

Its a great pity there is no mechanism for impeaching the government.

Liam Byrne

pete wrote: »

Who said anything about moving to get a new job? Jobs are being moved with no regard for the service, skills or wishes of the current jobholder.

Sounds like something someone from Dell would say.....do Ryanair do commutes to Poland ?

NewDubliner

Call for reversal of decentralisation

From the Irish Times Online:

Professor John Fitzgerald of the Economic and Social Research Institute has called for a complete reversal of the Government’s decentralisation policy.

Mr Fitzgerald described the policy as a “disaster” which would ultimately make the public sector much less efficient.

Speaking to RTÉ radio today, Mr Fitzgerald said: “When you are dealing with Government offices which are outside of Dublin it takes much longer to get responses to get action.

“We’ve acknowledged that we have had a disaster in banking...lets acknowledge this. Reverse it and try and build a productive efficient public service out of this mess."

Mr Fitzgerald said that while a lot of the public service actually “works well”, in the future it will have to work “better than ever” with less resources.

“It’s a question of saving money in the long run,” he added

I can see problems ahead, implementing Bord Snip, if if turns out that some towns will lose their 'decentalisation' trophy offices. The lobbying will be fierce. As usual, Dublin workers will probably take the hit, to protect jobs in marginal rural constituencies.

The 'decentralisation' project was, in part, inspired by building interests, anxious to cash in on thousands of house moves and hundreds of new office developments. It's a fine example of the way the government squandered the boom.

The_Conductor

NewDubliner wrote: »

Call for reversal of decentralisation

I can see problems ahead, implementing Bord Snip, if if turns out that some towns will lose their 'decentalisation' trophy offices. The lobbying will be fierce. As usual, Dublin workers will probably take the hit, to protect jobs in marginal rural constituencies.

The 'decentralisation' project was, in part, inspired by building interests, anxious to cash in on thousands of house moves and hundreds of new office developments. It's a fine example of the way the government squandered the boom.

You already have war- look at the Department of Agriculture staff in Galway and Ballinasloe whose jobs were 'decentralised' to Portlaoise......? (I'm not even going to mention Carrick-on-Shannon and the Longford debacle.......)

NewDubliner

smccarrick wrote: »

You already have war- look at the Department of Agriculture staff in Galway and Ballinasloe whose jobs were 'decentralised' to Portlaoise......? (I'm not even going to mention Carrick-on-Shannon and the Longford debacle.......)

I can well understand moving the jobs to Portlaoise, it's in Cowen's consituency. As MoF, didn't he move large chunks of Finance to Tuallmore?

But, don't we need extra dole clerks in Dublin?

gurramok

Decentralised from Galway?!

I had thought that decentralisation was a move away from Dublin thing. Bloody hell, Galway and Ballinasloe are already decentralised locations!!

The_Conductor

NewDubliner wrote: »

I can well understand moving the jobs to Portlaoise, it's in Cowen's consituency. As MoF, didn't he move large chunks of Finance to Tuallmore?

But, don't we need extra dole clerks in Dublin?

Its depressing.......

Ireland's downfall is parochial politics- pure and simple. There is no cognisance of what 'Ireland' needs, whats good for 'Ireland'- its all what can our little village or town get from 'our fellah' who we voted in.

Personally I think we need to totally revisit how politics works in the country- possibly be greatly reducing the number of ministers- and introducing a list system for deputies, so they represent 'Ireland' and not Dingle Co. Kerry.......

The other massive problem is a total inability on the part of the government to communicate with the public- who they are supposed to be representing....... we need capable leadership from politicians who have the guts to make the hard decisions that they must do, if this country is to recover, and stand by those decisions- instead of hanging out Colm McCarthy, the ESRI or civil servants to dry- over hard decisions that will have to be made...........