Asked to design a website!

Panda

I've been asked to design a website, thats going to be easy enough.
But what kind of money should i ask for or expect?

There is a good bit of graphic design that i have already completed and there should be about 7 pages in total.
All designed with HTML and some javascript eye candy.

What would be an average figure for such a site?

leonotron

about €6.99 per page and a once off setup fee of €20

buddy

300 - 500 but be very very careful - should've arranged this before starting the project.

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by leonotron
about €6.99 per page and a once off setup fee of €20

thats cheap!

Originally posted by buddy
300 - 500 but be very very careful - should've arranged this before starting the project.

also arrange (in writing!) what is to be done for this fee. the last thing you want is to agree a fee but end up having to do 1000 hours of work for it because your idea & your clients idea of the work were quite different.

hostyle

Originally posted by leonotron
about €6.99 per page and a once off setup fee of €20

stop feeding this troll. why he hasnt been banned long ago is beyond me. i've yet to see him make a single a single post that wasnt a troll or something childish. humour is supposed to be funny.

clearz

I am a student still myself but have done a few websites. (beats working in mcdonald's)
What you are talking about (basic staic website) I would charge arround the 500 mark. That includes

Consultantsy fees.
Photography.
Design
Programming. (HTML, javascript)
Purchasing domain name , web space.
Maintainance. (Dont think once the website is finnished that will be it. Its your job to make sure that the site is always up or if things need changing like prices you will have to change it)

If the site needs regular updating you should come to an agreement on how you will get paid to do this.

Oh yea you will need to charge them extra for a domain name and web space. Make sure you explain thes extra charges to them on top of your fee. When getting them a domain name buy it for arround five to ten years to save you the hastle of renewing it once a year.

JustHalf

Sit down. Try figure out how much you think an hour of your time is worth. Then try to figure out how many hours this job will take you.

You'll probably estimate too low on time, but this is certainly a good way of estimating how much to charge.

RicardoSmith

Work out what your time is worth. 100-200 a day.

mneylon

Make sure you get the client to agree on what is included in the design/development and what isn't ie. clearly define the project's scope.
If you are pricing by the day or the hour this might not be as big an issue, but obviously if you overrun the client's estimated budget significantly they won't be too pleased.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Work out what your time is worth. 100-200 a day.

Can people actually make a living on this?

JustHalf

No

Maybe out of 200, if they have very few expenses to worry about. They'll have trouble increasing their rates though, which is pretty necessary if you want to be able afford an office.

Serbian

Like JustHalf posted earlier, the best way to work out how much to charge a client is to decide on an hourly rate, then work out how many hours it is going to take you to finish the site.

Agree all costs before beginning a project, or you will more than likely get shafted. It may also be a good idea to get the client to pay 1/3rd up front if you get the feeling that they may be difficult to get the cash off.

Set clearly what all costs are and what they are for in the quote and make sure you note that any extra costs incurred (e.g. a courier) will be payable by the client. Also state in the contract that further maintence to the site would be billable at x euro per hour, or agree to do x amount of hours maintenance a month for a certain fee if the site is going to need to be updated often.

I have found the following link useful in the past, might be worth taking a read of it:

How much should I charge a client?

Hope that helps.

RicardoSmith

Jeez. Is this about pricing a 7 page website or setting up a web design agency? If someone is pricing a website after they've started working on it, and don't know what to charge, they are hardly (no offense) a design professional. I think pricing it at consultancy rates is a bit of a leap of the imagination.

The small website market is a rat race with many designers doing it for next to nothing or for free to build their work experience and portfolio. Your not going to make much money at it unless you are doing much bigger sites, getting into database, or ecommerce work.

100-150 day is about average for support jobs. Most lower end contracting jobs are 100-200. What were you expecting, 500-1000 a day? for a 7 page website?

"Can people actually make a living on this" ... what a comment. Jeez.

Reminds me of that other post about Senior designers being on 16k - 60k....ww)

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I think pricing it at consultancy rates is a bit of a leap of the imagination.

Why not? Ever hear of supply and demand?

"Can people actually make a living on this" ... what a comment. Jeez.

And how much tax to you pay a year then?

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Why not? Ever hear of supply and demand?

And how much tax to you pay a year then?

Yes theres an extreme world shortage of people who can knock up a website.

Whats has the tax I pay, assuming I pay tax in Ireland, to do with someone else?

buddy

Sarcasm gets you everywhere

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Yes theres an extreme world shortage of people who can knock up a website.

There’s an extreme world shortage of people who can knock up a website competently.

Whats has the tax I pay, assuming I pay tax in Ireland, to do with someone else?

Someone’s rate reflects a number of indirect costs - not only the value of the time spent physically working, but also expenses incurred, unbillable work and taxes.

Of the unbillable work, you must remember that it’s not like someone is paying you a regular income. You’re not making a steady € 100 - € 200 per day, every day. No one is paying you for bank holidays, what would be your standard 20 days paid holidays or Christmas, etc (that adds up to six weeks per year). No one is paying you for making a pitch to a company (be it writing a proposal or attending the pitch meeting itself). No one is paying you for the time spent working on your own accounts or PC.

And all that’s assuming that you’re fully booked on billable projects the rest of the time.

So if you work that into your calculations, you’re making a lot less than your suggested € 100 - € 200 per day, which may pay the bills in Calcutta, but not in Dublin, I’m afraid.

Finally, as the final indignation, add income tax and PRSI to all that (let’s not even mention VAT) to this mix and your disposable income has just been reduced even further.

I asked whether you paid tax or not because it seemed so evident from your rather cavalier attitude and understanding of the financial matters of this business that you’d paid little notice to the above costs. So TBH, I very much doubt you do.

RicardoSmith

I know lots of very competent, award winning web designers, and many less high profile web designers all of which are competent. They are all snowed under with big projects like they were 2 years ago. Not. No hundred thousand websites, or million dollar websites in development like there used to be. They are all competing for a greatly reduced market. It is picking up slightly.

You didn't ask did I pay tax. You asked how much tax I paid. The tax I pay has no relevence to someone else. Despite the lecture of how to be a contractor. The guy is most likely just be doing it as a nixer or a favor. In which case he just need to declare the extra earnings at the end of the year. But I'll leave you explain that.

Someones asking about pricing a 7 page website, hes hasn't done it before, so hes hardly likely to need to plan his financial year around it is he?

I know I can get a decent site done for peanuts in the current market. Advertise for a web designer and you will get about 200-500 CV within 2 weeks.

jank

Ricardo do you have to have an opinion on EVEYTHING!!

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I know lots of very competent, award winning web designers, and many less high profile web designers all of which are competent. They are all snowed under with big projects like they were 2 years ago. Not. No hundred thousand websites, or million dollar websites in development like there used to be. They are all competing for a greatly reduced market. It is picking up slightly.

What the fsck has that got to do with what we’re discussing?

You didn't ask did I pay tax. You asked how much tax I paid. The tax I pay has no relevence to someone else. Despite the lecture of how to be a contractor.

You mean you don’t pay tax, so it would be fair to say that your business is pretty much nixer based. Kind of rules you out of any serious discussions on this topic, TBH.

The guy is most likely just be doing it as a nixer or a favor. In which case he just need to declare the extra earnings at the end of the year. But I'll leave you explain that.

The guy is looking for a job you imbecile - try reading the first post.

Someones asking about pricing a 7 page website, hes hasn't done it before, so hes hardly likely to need to plan his financial year around it is he?

He’s asking about getting a job not a nixer.

I know I can get a decent site done for peanuts in the current market. Advertise for a web designer and you will get about 200-500 CV within 2 weeks.

I can, and often do, too. My company it more technology rather than design orientated, and so we regularly farm out any design work that falls on our plate. But we still would not go so far as bottom feeders though.

neXus9

Check out this guy's website
Nice idea.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by neXus9
Check out this guy's website
Nice idea.

Nice idea, quite original. Not sure the navigation works that well in practice.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
What the fsck has that got to do with what we’re discussing?

No need to curse. You said theres a lack of competent design. Thats not my experience of the web design market. Thats the relevence of my comment. Didn't think it was that obtuse.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
You mean you don’t pay tax, so it would be fair to say that your business is pretty much nixer based. Kind of rules you out of any serious discussions on this topic, TBH.
[/B]

I mean my tax situation is completely different. You specifically asked about my tax. You're quessing I don't pay tax. Which would be illegal. Is that slander or defamation? I can't decide. In any case, your assuming nixers are illegal. Whereas if you declare the extra income the're not.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
The guy is looking for a job you imbecile - try reading the first post.

He’s asking about getting a job not a nixer.
[/B]

Insults, very mature. Can you quote the bit where hes looking for a job. The post I'm looking at hes started a website already and is wondering how much to charge for it. Doesn't sound like a job to me. Also doesn't sound like someone who has done it before.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
I can, and often do, too. My company it more technology rather than design orientated, and so we regularly farm out any design work that falls on our plate. But we still would not go so far as bottom feeders though. [/B]

So how much would you pay for a 7 page web site, which is simple HTML and JS?


I dunno why your getting so hot and bothered, cursing, making defamation comments, and insulting me. Its a discussion, in an open forum. No ones forcing you to be here. If its annoying you, why bother replying? Especially if you can't be civil about it.

clearz

Great idea his portfolio is pretty good also.

neXus9

Can you quote the bit where hes looking for a job. The post I'm looking at hes started a website already and is wondering how much to charge for it. Doesn't sound like a job to me. Also doesn't sound like someone who has done it before.

yeah, has nixer written all over it.

Panda

looks like ye lost the run of yersleves lads.

got 3 for it and a weekly updating fee.
will i tell ye what it is?
no.
i cant take the famed "brutal criticism" of boards.ie

Spunog UIE

giz a look ?

minority

I've been doing websites for God knows how long now and reading this thread i would say that Ricardo Smith and JustHalf are making the most sense while The corinthian clearly doesn't have a bog what he's talking about, or maybe he's still trying to persuade people to pay over the odds for websites because he's feeling the pinch.

Everyman and his dog and cat do websites these days.
While every man and his dog are probably competent.


My personal view is.
Never start a web site til you know what you need to do and the client has agreed to the charges. Make sure that the client knows the cut-off point for that price and that anything extra will cost them.

Most of all Make money out of it. Better to get 5 clients at €200-300 a day than 10 Clients at 100-150 a day. Same money half the work.

Find your best price per unit work and stick to it religiously. Of course if you're not getting any work you either price too high or are ****

The Corinthian

Originally posted by minority
I've been doing websites for God knows how long now and reading this thread i would say that Ricardo Smith and JustHalf are making the most sense while The corinthian clearly doesn't have a bog what he's talking about, or maybe he's still trying to persuade people to pay over the odds for websites because he's feeling the pinch.

No, I run a company and pay taxes, not nixers which is all you're discussing here.

If you prefer the black economy that's your business. If you want to call it that. I'll leave you to your bottom feeding.

RicardoSmith

Unfortunately I have to agree with minority. He's used to scope creeping projects. Maximising the money that can leeched from some poor client who hasn't a clue what he should be paying. It Irish corporate culture now. Eircom, O2, AIB etc.

JustHalf

Originally posted by minority
Everyman and his dog and cat do websites these days.
While every man and his dog are probably competent.

I hope that second line is a typo.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Unfortunately I have to agree with minority. He's used to scope creeping projects. Maximising the money that can leeched from some poor client who hasn't a clue what he should be paying. It Irish corporate culture now. Eircom, O2, AIB etc.

If we’re talking about a kid making a bit of pocket money or a developer with a full time job doing a weekend nixer, the fine and well.

Of course, the companies that tend to get their work done by such individuals will normally tend to be small businesses who only need a brochureware site and are too busy counting the halfpence ‘ore the pence to get a professional firm to do it. They are however the same companies that will expect everything for free and will always be slow pays (if they bother paying at all).

If, on the other hand, you are talking about making a living, whether freelance or as a fully fledged company and (importantly) doing so above board, then it is difficult to imagine how one may charge €100 to €200 per day and survive.

Even at €200 per day, you’re not billing five days a week, 52 weeks a year. To begin with no one is paying you holiday money - which between statutory and public holidays comes to about 30 days per annum. Add to this unbillable work, like internal projects (such as your own Web site), doing the accounts (sorting out VAT payments, chasing late invoices, invoicing in the first place, etc), and most importantly the cost of sales - no one is paying for your time to pitch for a project, after all.

As an aside, contractors may often get only €100 to €200 per day, but they generally have no overheads or, importantly, cost of sale - which is borne by the company contracting them out at €400 to €600 per day.

Finally, add your overheads; rent (if you have an office), telephone / mobile, software licences, electricity, insurance and finally salaries (your own at least). Even when you get to paying yourself, you’ve got PRSI and income tax to deduct.

So given a gross €100 to €200 per day rate, you’re not going to have a lot left over at the end of the year when you deduct everything. Do the maths.

Given all this, my guess is that you don’t actually pay any tax on your earnings or, were you to calculate your annual net income, would probably realise that you would be financially better off working in a MacJob. Quite possibly both.

And then you have the balls to tell people who do pay their taxes that we charge too much. Go figure.

RicardoSmith

So what your saying, is...

Nixers are fine but you'll be working for tight fisted companies from whom probably won't pay you. You probably do shoddy work anyway.

There no point in doing work for experience, or to add skills to your CV. Working in McDonalds for slightly more money is a better career move.

If you're on a low salary you don't pay tax.

You can read minds and and guess I don't pay tax.

You reckon its mad not to charge 1000+ for a 7 pages of HTML and JS which is probably about a days work. So you get paid at least 5k a week and 20k a month, 240K a year for doing html and Js.

...well it doesn't seem to making you happy...

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Nixers are fine but you'll be working for tight fisted companies from whom probably won't pay you. You probably do shoddy work anyway.

‘Tight fisted’ companies will be more likely to employ your services as they are more interested in getting something done cheaply than going with someone who can demonstrate experience and probably ongoing support. They’re not looking for quality, just cheap and nasty.

There no point in doing work for experience, or to add skills to your CV.

Of course there is, but adding skills to your CV does not pay the rent.

Working in McDonalds for slightly more money is a better career move.

If you can’t legally support yourself in a career, it’s time to move on.

If you're on a low salary you don't pay tax.

If you’re self employed freelancer and on a low salary, it’s probably unlikely.

You can read minds and and guess I don't pay tax.

I can’t read your mind, but I can do the maths. And if you’re allegedly making a living out as a free agent in this industry, then you’re going to find it very difficult to do so on a €200 per day rate, unless you cut a few corners, and income tax is probably going to be the first one.

I note you’ve never actually denied the accusation, BTW.

You reckon its mad not to charge 1000+ for a 7 pages of HTML and JS which is probably about a days work. So you get paid at least 5k a week and 20k a month, 240K a year for doing html and Js.

You don’t make at least 5k a week and 20k a month, 240K a year for doing anything. Nobody pays me to pitch to them, nobody pays me for the time I spend fixing the network in my office when it goes down, no one is paying for my time when I calculate the VAT payments. Neither is my Internet connection free, or the electricity bowering this PC but I still have to find the money somewhere.

Are you suggesting that I or frankly anyone else here does 240 different Web sites per year?

Or that if you include pre-sales, sales, scoping, client meetings, debugging, invoicing and credit control that you have done everything in one man-day?

...well it doesn't seem to making you happy...

Being pontificated to by clueless bottom feeders is the thing that doesn’t make me happy.

mneylon

Lighten up guys please!

And then you lot complain about web hosts!! Pfft!!

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by blacknight
Lighten up guys please!

And then you lot complain about web hosts!! Pfft!!

Hee hee.

Tis funny alright. Someone asks about pricing a 7 page website, Corinthian wants to build a corporation around it, makes wild guess'es about what other posters do, what they get paid and if they pay tax. I might even agree with him on one or two points, but I reckon we can get him to wear out his quote button eventually.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
makes wild guess'es about what other posters do, what they get paid and if they pay tax.

Doesn't take much of a guess if all you charge is € 100 - € 200 a day.

You've still not denied my accusation, BTW.

RicardoSmith

Quote where I say what "I" charge, or what I do for that matter.

Deny what specifically. You make so many accusations.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Quote where I say what "I" charge, or what I do for that matter.

You advised someone else to charge that rate, so it's not an unreasonable assumption.

Deny what specifically. You make so many accusations.

I've only made one - Do you pay tax on your income?

RicardoSmith

Thats a realistic rate for an amateur. For 7 basic web pages.

No it isn't. But yes I do. Would like to ask my accountant? Of course if I didn't would I post that on a forum. Unlikely. So its a facile question.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
No it isn't. But yes I do. Would like to ask my accountant?

Sure. PM me the details and I'll ask directly - of course I am assuming it's not you though...

Of course if I didn't would I post that on a forum. Unlikely. So its a facile question.

Sure you would if you were bluffing.