Viable Replacement for Motor Tax?

TommyK

Hi All,

I'm relatively new around here so I don't know if this has come up before. Also, I'm having difficulty searching for any relevant posts from the past because there's a minimum 4 letters allowed in each search term!

So here goes . . .

Assuming that the Government *has* to have the several hundred million Euros (or whatever the amount is) collected in motor tax every year, is there a better, more efficient, way to collect it than the current method?

The only way I can think of is replacing it with added tax on motor fuels.

There's probably already a fuel duty collection "infrastructure" in place for existing fuel taxes so it would probably be an expansion of that.

Of course, you'd have people evading it with illegal imports and what not but there plenty of people evading the current system too (just read any local paper to see how much of it is taken up by "Paddy O'Toole Fined For No Tax Disc"-type articles - And their just the ones getting caught.

This way, you'd pay according to use and the current inequalities (private tax 2-3 times the commercial rate; taxis paying a pittance despite constant road use, etc.) - a sort of pay-as-you-go system. The more you use the roads, the more you pay.

You could then scrap the M.T.O.'s (Maybe driving licences could be handled by one central office like in the U.K. - you could even have a facility to give in your licence application to the post office who'd then send it on (like the do with passports).

What do you think?

Should I give Seamus Brennan a call?

Tommy.

TommyK

Sorry, I accidentally posted the same message twice and dunno how to get rid of this notice completely!

Redshift

I think that's how they do it in Austrailia. Good Idea IMO and an added incentive to not make frivilous use of your car. Those that use the roads the most pay the most.

unkel

Comprehensively agree with you TommyK

1. Polluter pays principle
2. petrol prices here are relatively low so there is scope for higher duty
3. unfair to have someone pay high road tax for an unused or rarely used car, just because engine capacity is high
4. have to go after silly low tax categories like taxi's

Drive a thirsty machine myself and think it is only fair I should pay a premium per mile I drive (so either incorporated into a higher duty on petrol or an electronic tag on my mileage) compared to e.g. a Nissan Micra 1.0l driver

Tommy Vercetti

I'd be happy with that, I do about 20k miles a year so I'd be screwed even more but it's fairer. Motor tax takes in about €570m per year at the moment.

Seth Brundle

the revenue are aware of this method but don't want to change the system. One has to ask oneself why?

mike65

Pay-as-you-go clearly is the best, most efficent method to raise revenue so why it has'nt ever been seriously considered (afaik) is a good question. I'd like to see the same with 3-rd party insurance like in Austrialia (I think).

Mike.

GoneShootin

TommyK you need to get into politics and bring that idea around yourself !

STaN

I think the UK system of motor tax is allot fairer than what we have at the moment and it encourages people to use environmentally friendly cars.

The toyota prius with its dual engines which in reality does do 60mpg would have very low emitions.

Big gas gusslers like a 4.5litre BMW should be taxed the highest.

Rabies

2. petrol prices here are relatively low so there is scope for higher duty

They are currently at 99c a litre. I wouldn't call that low. A couple of months ago the price was only about 85c. I know we are not paying the high prices that the UK pays but it there has been a huge increase in petrol price lately.

The sooner Bush gets Iraq sorted the sooner the oil prices will level out again.

I don't think adding extra tax on petrol will solve the problem. I would rather pay my couple of hundred euro a year than pay extra on my fuel. It might be a viable option if the government gave tax incentives like they do in england for those that buy eco-friendly cars. Don't think it will work here.

It would be unfair against those that need large engine vehicles for work and sport. It can cost double the price to fill a large vehicle than something small like a Yaris or a Micra.

If it was only a very tax charge per litre it might not be too bad, but knowing this country they would try to screw you for every penny you got.

mike65

Originally posted by Rabies


It would be unfair against those that need large engine vehicles for work and sport. It can cost double the price to fill a large vehicle than something small like a Yaris or a Micra.

A large engined car is a luxery really so you'd have to be willing pay for it, even if the car is old and cheap as in my case.

Mike.

Rabies

Originally posted by mike65
A large engined car is a luxery really so you'd have to be willing pay for it, even if the car is old and cheap as in my case.

Mike.

I can't really see a Micra with a hair dryer for and engine pulling a horse box at weekends. A minimum 2L engine is needed for regular heavy loads or the engine won't last long.

seamus

Originally posted by Rabies
I can't really see a Micra with a hair dryer for and engine pulling a horse box at weekends. A minimum 2L engine is needed for regular heavy loads or the engine won't last long.

People who are self-employed get their petrol VAT free if they wish. I think the petrol costs of the horsey crowd aren't exactly a huge issue anyway. If you can't afford to pay a slight petrol increase, then you can't afford to keep a horse

If they introduced this, they would have to introduce a slight tax allowance increase for employers who have to pay for vehicles.

Not too much though, if they use a bigger vehilce for their work, why *shouldn't* they have to pay more?

It would benefit me anyway. Even 10c onto the current price of petrol and I'd still be paying less than my €50-odd road tax per year

Rabies

Originally posted by seamus
People who are self-employed get their petrol VAT free if they wish.

Is it not just diesel that vat can be claimed back on? Petrol is exempt, right ?

Originally posted by seamus
I think the petrol costs of the horsey crowd aren't exactly a huge issue anyway. If you can't afford to pay a slight petrol increase, then you can't afford to keep a horse

I was just using horses as an example. People that own horses can't really use a car to pull a box. We need a second vehicle like a jeep or change the car for a jeep.

Originally posted by seamus
If they introduced this, they would have to introduce a slight tax allowance increase for employers who have to pay for vehicles.

I think that would have to be a part of it if this did happen. Employers have a heavy enough fuel bill as it is with out adding extra to the cost.

Originally posted by seamus
It would benefit me anyway. Even 10c onto the current price of petrol and I'd still be paying less than my €50-odd road tax per year

Bit if a difference against my €700 tax

I can see where some people are coming from. The whole "soccer mom" issues has been raised a few times. These people drive big 2-3L cars and jeeps around to pick kids up from school. Not really eco friendly. But I don't think adding extra to the cost of fuel will help.

May just add more tax to petrol and not diesel

Victor

Originally posted by kbannon
the revenue are aware of this method but don't want to change the system. One has to ask oneself why?

It's more the minister than the Revenue.

1. We make money on lots of small scale exports (i.e. in your fuel tank) to the UK.
2. It's pro-business (heavy fuel users).

Originally posted by seamus
People who are self-employed get their petrol VAT free if they wish.

I'm not sure about this. I think cars, petrol, food and accommodation and a few other items can't have the VAT claimed back.

seamus

Originally posted by Victor
I'm not sure about this. I think cars, petrol, food and accommodation and a few other items can't have the VAT claimed back.

Afaik, they can be claimed back if the VAT was incurred in the cost of work and you will be billing a customer, i.e. if they are costs associated with a job, so travel expenses, business dinners, etc.

Vehicles, afaik, you can claim any VAT back, but not VRT or Motor Tax. Accomodation I'm not sure about.

My Dad's an accountant, and I've seen VAT claimed back on plenty of meals and petrol receipts, and honestly put down on the declaration as such.

Victor

accountant

honestly

?

unkel

Originally posted by Rabies
They are currently at 99c a litre. I wouldn't call that low.

It's one of the lowest in the EU...

PBC_1966

I visited Ireland back in 1998 with my '77 Ford LTD station wagon. I sure got a lot of curious looks and great interest from bunches of kids as I drove by. Then I found out one reason why: Had such a car been Irish-registered the road tax would have been an extortionate £800 per year due to the size of the engine.

I'm not saying a graduated tax on engine size isn't acceptable, but the amount levied in Ireland is very high once you go over 2 liters.

By the way, the U.K. system mentioned above where the tax is based on emissions applies only to new cars in the last couple of years. Anything already registered still pays the under the old system, which is £110 if under 1549cc, or £165 for all other cars.

U.K. rates can be seen here: http://www.dvla.gov.uk/vehicles/taxation.htm

Rabies

Originally posted by PBC_1966
U.K. rates can be seen here: http://www.dvla.gov.uk/vehicles/taxation.htm

Bit of difference compared to the Irish rates http://www.eforecourt.com/php/cartax.php

seamus

Originally posted by Victor
?

Yes, there are some honest accountants out there, shockingly enough

PBC_1966

Hmmm....... This is thought-provoking. The idea of hitting bigger engines with ridiculously high tax rates may at first sound good from an environmentalists point-of-view, but it doesn't take other factors into account. Try this for size:

Case #1. Big V8, used by someone who works from home and uses the car maybe a couple of times a week for shopping and other pleasure trips. Maybe 50 miles per week on average.

Case #2. Small engine car, used by someone who does a round-trip commute of 100 miles per day, 5 days per week, plus other trips on weekends. Let's say 600 miles per week.

Is it fair that #1 should pay, say, eight times the tax of #2 for less than 10% of the usage?

unkel

Originally posted by PBC_1966
Case #1. Big V8

That me with about 9k miles per year. Pay €1343 tax for the privilige (UK would be £165)

Don't mind paying extra but it should be based on usage, not a fixed amount.

The dude I sold my previous V8 to is a real car enthousiast. He typically has about 4-7 cars, all performance vehicles. He never pays any tax and just hopes he won't get caught. He lives in the ****hole of nowhere and so far got 1 car confiscated because it had no tax.

I know the law is the law and I would always pay my tax and insurance, but I have sympathy for this guy. How can he be expected to pay up to €10 GRAND a year in tax when he only ever drives one car at a time?

seamus

Originally posted by unkel
I know the law is the law and I would always pay my tax and insurance, but I have sympathy for this guy. How can he be expected to pay up to €10 GRAND a year in tax when he only ever drives one car at a time?

In fairness, if you're going to collect cars, you don't do it without a big wad of cash in your back pocket. Nobody's forcing him to own all these vehicles. I wouldn't have any sympathy for him. He knows the law under the current system. It's a hobby. If he wants a cheaper way to collect cars he should move country.

He can avoid taxing them if he doesn't drive them on public roads. If he wants to drive them on public roads, he has to pay the tax. Tough really.

MadsL

When are we going to have an emissions based system anyway? I have a very low emission, small engine, vehicle. Already hits Euro 4 standards. Why is my car lumped in with your bog-standard 1.0L, there's no incentive to have a greener car under the present system.

Gmodified

quote:

It's one of the lowest in the EU...


Well, 95 Octane petrol cost only 85c in Poland including road tax .
and 37c for LPG



You drive more you pay more ,

unkel

Originally posted by Gmodified
petrol cost only 85c in Poland

That's not that much cheaper than here. You caught me out though, wasn't thinking about the new EU countries when posting and have no idea about prices there

Rabies

Originally posted by unkel
That's not that much cheaper than here.

15c cheaper :dunno:

mike65

In a Polish context thats dammed expensive juice.

Mike.

PBC_1966

Originally posted by unkel
That me with about 9k miles per year. Pay €1343 tax for the privilige (UK would be £165)

Don't mind paying extra but it should be based on usage, not a fixed amount.

That's me for many years as well, hence my choice of example. Some years I barely do 4000 miles. Another point is that many of the big V8s run cleaner than smaller engines anyway. Certainly all of my American V8s have sailed through emissions tests with a fraction of the permissible levels for the appropriate age vehicles. Many MoT inspectors have commented on how the emissions are way below those that they see on many of the little 4-pot Euro-boxes of the same year.

Seems to me that Ireland is the place to go for running vintage cars (>30 years) though. No NCT, run on old-style plates, and a flat-rate tax of just a few euros per year no matter what the engine size, plus cheaper fuel than the U.K.

mike65

Originally posted by PBC_1966
Seems to me that Ireland is the place to go for running vintage cars (>30 years) though. No NCT, run on old-style plates, and a flat-rate tax of just a few euros per year no matter what the engine size, plus cheaper fuel than the U.K.

Deffo - me starts musing about a V8 Rover P6


Mike.

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by mike65
Deffo - me starts musing about a V8 Rover P6
Mike.

the rover V8 - one of the best ever V8 engines!

unkel

3.5 V8 P6 - with the spare sticking out of the back :cool:

Must have already looked ancient when I was born though - this was before the 70's

That was the same time that everyone realised Rover was not to be a top marque anymore

Have to say at the time I liked it's successor, the 3500 VandenPlas of the late 70's - sounds much more posh than Sterling to me

Mythago

Must admit admit as the owner of a 2.5 litre car I really hate the Irish road tax system (but currently the car is registered in the UK, but dread bringing it home!). Car recently sat it's MOT, and while chatting to the inspector he commented that my '96 2.5l engine was running lower emissions that a number of '00 fiesta's, micra's and the like. So naturally I'd loved to see an emissions based tax! Owners of current shape LPT SAAB 9-3's would love this as the CAT is so efficient the exhaust is cleaner than in air taken in in city driving!? (ref: TOP GEAR some time last yr).

Also, with regards to the "pay as you go" tax on petrol, I reckon this is as good as, if not better than the emissions idea.... he who drives pays, it also nabs people who are living in Ireland without re-registering foreign cars (myself included!).

PBC_1966

Originally posted by Mythago
Also, with regards to the "pay as you go" tax on petrol, I reckon this is as good as, if not better than the emissions idea.... he who drives pays, it also nabs people who are living in Ireland without re-registering foreign cars (myself included!).

If you also have a non-Irish driver's license, is this ever likely to be queried? You get pulled up with British plates, say, and produce a UK license with a British address on it. Everything looks fine, right?

The only problem I see would be keeping the UK tax disc current once the MoT expires, although if you're near the border you could hop over to get a new MoT certificate, I suppose.

leeroybrown

I also agree that a fuel based tax would be a more preferable alternative to the current motor taxation system.

It would have several advantages:

• Ecological focus - Fuel burned is a good approximation of environmental impact. Encourages reduction by taxation incentive.
• Usage focus - The more you burn the larger your potential impact on roadways is.
• Staggered payment - you pay as an expense not as an one off cost.

There would also be several issues/problems (most from the governments point of view):

• Lacks the car number tracking element of tax discs.
• Requires significant alteration to current collection methodologies. They're messing with the civil service more than enough as it is.
• The government like the current X cars by Y euro guaranteed payment. They get the money either way.
• Government will lose the ability to tax environmentally friendly cars (tax they would levy without a problem)
• Open to gov. abuse - price hikes every budget.

Ultimately, I'd love to see an alternate taxation scheme but it's quite easy to think of many reasons for the government to avoid the issue completely.

Mythago

If you also have a non-Irish driver's license, is this ever likely to be queried? You get pulled up with British plates, say, and produce a UK license with a British address on it. Everything looks fine, right?

Looks fine, but, having spoken to a mate in the Gardai he said it isn't uncommon for gards to keep track of foreign plated cars. i.e. cops will query a UK plate thats been in say shannon for a couple of months. As for the licence, I have considered getting a UK licence (i work there alot) but with the huge amount of speed cameras I'd probably lose it pretty rapidly:rolleyes: Also there are issues with driver obligation to convert his licence within 3 months (I think).

Either way I will worry about it all in Mid-july when I get back to Ireland & take the car out(probably get pulled within minutes!)

Gmodified

If you also have a non-Irish driver's license, is this ever likely to be queried? You get pulled up with British plates, say, and produce a UK license with a British address on it. Everything looks fine, right?

Looking at amount of LV reg cars from Latvia, I don't think the law is really enforced as used to be before. Not mentioning VRT people

PBC_1966

Originally posted by Mythago
Also there are issues with driver obligation to convert his licence within 3 months (I think).

You might want to check on that. According to the DVLA, under new EU rules you can use a license from an EU country in any other EU country for as long as it remains valid, which for our new photo card licenses is up to 10 years.

I believe there's a law here which says that a British resident musn't drive a car which doesn't carry UK plates. So if you came over to visit from Ireland, with an Irish registered car, it would technically be illegal for me to drive it here. More crazy bureaucracy! :rolleyes: There's probably something similar in Irish law.

unkel

Constructive post leeroybrown

I feel these disadvantages aren't major:

Originally posted by leeroybrown

• Lacks the car number tracking element of tax discs.

Tracking is already done on vehicle license

Originally posted by leeroybrown

• Requires significant alteration to current collection methodologies. They're messing with the civil service more than enough as it is.

Collection as now through the fuel distribution channel. Big saving on civil service as motor taxation departments are dissolved

Originally posted by leeroybrown

• Government will lose the ability to tax environmentally friendly cars (tax they would levy without a problem)

Do you mean subsidise environmentally friendly cars? In that case a subsidy on the purchase price would do the trick. Applied successfully in several European countries in relation to LPG, catalytic convertors, electric cars, etc.

Originally posted by leeroybrown

• The government like the current X cars by Y euro guaranteed payment. They get the money either way.
• Open to gov. abuse - price hikes every budget.

Now it's getting tricky. The government has now become accustomed to receiving large amounts in VRT, motor taxation and fuel duties, not to mention the VAT on new cars and insurance levies. If all these were to be applied on a zero sum base (from the government's viewpoint), we'd probably be looking at a price for unleaded petrol of at least €2 :eek:

Years ago in the Netherlands, the Finance Minister upped the duty on petrol by €0.12 per liter to "discourage people to drive as much". Later it was leaked that in the budget for the year after the hike, a slightly increased total petrol consumption was forecast instead of a fall. Nice little earner so, nought to do with feelings for the environment etc.

Victor

Originally posted by unkel
Years ago in the Netherlands, the Finance Minister upped the duty on petrol by €0.12 per liter to "discourage people to drive as much". Later it was leaked that in the budget for the year after the hike, a slightly increased total petrol consumption was forecast instead of a fall. Nice little earner so, nought to do with feelings for the environment etc.

And if they didn't increase the tax, consumption would have gone up further, wouldn't it?

leeroybrown

Firstly, when I was thinking of those cons, I was deliberately thinking from a position of maintaining the status quo.

Originally posted by unkel
Collection as now through the fuel distribution channel. Big saving on civil service as motor taxation departments are dissolved

True. That is a definite bonus and would free up resources to increase staffing to other civil posts, but then you get into a game of fiefdoms. Whenever you try a wholesale change theres natural inertia from the civil service.

Originally posted by unkel
Do you mean subsidise environmentally friendly cars? In that case a subsidy on the purchase price would do the trick. Applied successfully in several European countries in relation to LPG, catalytic convertors, electric cars, etc.

It was actually a slightly tongue in cheek comment. What I meant was that by focusing on a hydrocarbon fuel metred taxation system the government would move electric (and other environmentally friendly) vechicles outside the normal road tax net. Personally, I think this would be a good thing until newer technologies reached a critical mass of usage, but the minister for finance might just see this as disappearing revenue.

unkel

Originally posted by Victor
And if they didn't increase the tax, consumption would have gone up further, wouldn't it?

Only marginally. Petrol prices are almost as inelastic as cigarettes

Double the price of a pack of fags and consumption might go down maybe 5%

seamus

Originally posted by Victor
And if they didn't increase the tax, consumption would have gone up further, wouldn't it?

I don't think so. People, on the whole, drive as much as they need to. They don't suddenly find any new places to go.

One or two people might change their habits, but the vast majority would do exactly what they did before. I would believe that the only way to increase or decrease consumption by any great amount is to increase or decrease the number of drivers on the road.

It's a bit like food. You wouldn't expect people to eat more or less based on a small change in the cost of food.

unkel

Originally posted by leeroybrown
Personally, I think this would be a good thing until newer technologies reached a critical mass of usage, but the minister for finance might just see this as disappearing revenue.

See your logic

Surely the minister wouldn do that? :rolleyes:

pedro ferio-vti

Some excellent points being made here in this thread, but the current system is focused purely on being pro-enterprise just like the rest of Irelands tax infrastructure. Actually if you look at any of Fianna Fail TD Eoin Ryans election leaflets he boasts on being "pro-enterprise" in a gesture to generate votes....... i'd never vote for those crooked Fianna Fail ba$tards.

Would an emissions based system be better? Of course it would, any right thinking person would spot that, but it's not pro-enterprise unfortunately. While i'm writing did anybody notice their car tax go up this year? Probably not, I did over 6 months ago when they sent me out a letter to tax a car I had just bought.

I haven't paid road tax in about a year and a half or maybe 2 years ago, my car has a 2 litre engine and I'd be forced to pay 566 euro or there abouts for the luxury of driving on quite possibly the worst roads in europe so I refuse to pay it, not only on the grounds of the state of our roads but also on the fact that virtually NONE of the revenue generated from Road Tax goes back into improving our roads but merely compensates for numerous government cockups and payrises for our TDs......

Bah look what u feckers started, i'm angry now going to bed!!! :mad: :mad:

Pete

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by pedro ferio-vti
Would an emissions based system be better? Of course it would, any right thinking person would spot that, but it's not pro-enterprise unfortunately.

Who would run it? NCT - they are as crooked as the politicians!
Anyway, emissions test results can vary wildly so it may not really be fair.

PBC_1966

Originally posted by pedro ferio-vti
also on the fact that virtually NONE of the revenue generated from Road Tax goes back into improving our roads but merely compensates for numerous government cockups and payrises for our TDs......

A familiar cry on this side of the Irish Sea as well.....

By the way, the old French "vignette" system was based on engine size (also with slight variations from one department to another), but the rates were much lower. They also halved the standard rate for cars over, IIRC, 5 years old. A couple of years ago they scrapped their equivalent of the road-tax system altogether.

pedro ferio-vti

Originally posted by kbannon
Who would run it? NCT - they are as crooked as the politicians!
Anyway, emissions test results can vary wildly so it may not really be fair.

I was referring more directly to putting the road tax onto the price of petrol which in a roundabout way is a *kind* of emissions based tax in that the more you drive the more tax you pay. I know theres various cars that are more economical than others i.e. a V8 is gonna chew petrol moreso than a micra for example but I think it offers those who cannot afford to pay for the petrol to drive a more economical car.

Although I could probably sit here typing for most of the day on this subject, unfortunately it won't get us anywhere. There's not a lot of options really, what do you do? Emigrate?!?!?

Actually rather than jack this thread i'm gonna set up an emigration thread here:

Emigration Discussion

I'm just trying to gauge opinions with this thread not trying to persuade ppl to leave the country!:eek:

Pete

Victor

Originally posted by pedro ferio-vti
also on the fact that virtually NONE of the revenue generated from Road Tax goes back into improving our roads but merely compensates for numerous government cockups and payrises for our TDs......

Well expenditure on roads is 4-5 times the income from Road Tax.

Gmodified

Well expenditure on roads is 4-5 times the income from Road Tax.

r we building roads in Spain or something. there is small improvement but generally we have long way to go