Realistic salary expectaions for a programmer?(kinda newbie)

Peace

Hello again,

So i'm wondering what to ask for in those job interviews (if i ever get one) when they come around. I'm 7 days away from my final exam and then i'll be out with a degree in Computer Science: looks very much like a 2.1. I'll cut right to it, i have previous experience which is as follows:

12 months technical support while i was in 1st/2nd year
15months as a developer for microsoft as work placement from college. It was automation i was working with. It was supposed o be 12 months but they asked me to stay for longer to help traing the new people up to scratch (;) had to mention that bit)

I'm hoping that my work experience will get me off the pile and into the interview room. Usually i'm pretty good in the interview... i only get a little bit nervous and usually can relax and give a good account of myself.

I honestly don't know what to ask for when it comes to money. Definately more than 20k.... anyone who offers me 20 i will strongly consider telling them "No". I mean thats the same as i was getting when i was on work expierience! I have a figure in mind and its around the 25/26 mark to start off with. Maybe more.

I konw it doesn't make a difference but i'm male age 26.

daveg

I don't think 25/26K would be far of the mark Kevin. When my GF picked up her first software development job she started on abnout that money (4 years ago).

Johnny Versace

You have very little bargaining power I'm afraid.

First of all, you probably will not get a programming job - you are fresh out of college, and worst of all, there are no jobs.

Secondly, it's the employers market - they decide what you get.

Thirdly, you have very little experience. I used to work for Microsoft, and the work there is mongo.

Sorry to sound negative. Take whatever you are given.

SheroN

There are jobs johnny, I graduated last year and walked into a programming job. The very first interview I went for(lucky I know). I know of several other graduates who also got programming jobs in the past few months. You'll start off on about 23-25 depending on the company.

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by SheroN
There are jobs johnny, I graduated last year and walked into a programming job. The very first interview I went for(lucky I know). I know of several other graduates who also got programming jobs in the past few months. You'll start off on about 23-25 depending on the company.

Are you in Dublin?

SheroN

I am.

Peace

What did you do that was so mongo Johnny Versace ?

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by Peace
What did you do that was so mongo Johnny Versace ?

Build engineer on the MS Works team.

PCgirl

I totally agree
there are plenty of jobs ... I have been recruting Grads recently and its very difficult to get who you want, they all have other offers
and 25/26 K is about right

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by SheroN
I am.

Cool. You're lucky though. The majority of my friends (although they are of the Linux variety) have been out of work for 1+ years.

A few have emigrated...

It's sad.

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by PCgirl
I totally agree
there are plenty of jobs

What kind of jobs?

Are you a recruitment agency?

There are defo NOT plenty of jobs.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by SheroN
There are jobs johnny, I graduated last year and walked into a programming job. The very first interview I went for(lucky I know). I know of several other graduates who also got programming jobs in the past few months. You'll start off on about 23-25 depending on the company.

I think thats more the exception to the rule. I know experienced 5 yrs + C++/Java programmers who have been out of work for over a year.

PCgirl

Well there must be lots of jobs around for good engineering grads because from my recent experience the good ones all have an offer or 2 on the table and we have lost a few people because of that

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by PCgirl
Well there must be lots of jobs around for good engineering grads because from my recent experience the good ones all have an offer or 2 on the table and we have lost a few people because of that

This is totally going against everything I see around me, both with friends and friends of friends.

I assume you mean electronic engineering?

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by PCgirl
Well there must be lots of jobs around for good engineering grads because from my recent experience the good ones all have an offer or 2 on the table and we have lost a few people because of that

Define good ones.

SheroN

Maybe the exception to the rule. But to say there are no jobs is nonsense.

minority

PCGirl what company you with.
I thin i'l leave my job and ask for €100K off you and then tell you i have other offers

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by SheroN
Maybe the exception to the rule. But to say there are no jobs is nonsense.

Who said no jobs?

PCgirl

I'm talking people with good results throughout college, a bit of experience and a good final year project
but it obviously depends from person to person and job to job what would be considered 'good'
If you have a 1,1 you should not have a problem getting a job (at the moment)

SheroN

First of all, you probably will not get a programming job - you are fresh out of college, and worst of all, there are no jobs.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by SheroN

ah...:D

From what I can see other than graduates, most of the jobs around are looking for extensive experience and exactly the right skillset or experience for any role. If you don't have exactly what they ad says you won't even get an interview.


PCgirl how many people have have a 1.1 (5%)?

What about all the other graduates?

Johnny Versace

OK, let's not get bogged down on semantics here. You know what I meant.

Third_Echelon

There are jobs out there if you look hard enough... I think you should wait until you find a job you want and feel comfortable with... if you can afford to that is...

They are not in as much abundance as they used to be, but they are there..

coming fresh out of college it is hard to find a good job with decent enough money.. i was on the dole for the whole of last summer...

I was lucky.. i finished college last june and spent the summer applying for jobs etc with a lot of companies.. I didnt mind taking a few months off after college.. i think its needed after all those exams etc... defo take some time off...

The first interview I went for was with SAP and I started there last september.. so i'm about 8 months in now...

I think the 24 - 26k range is what you'll be offered mainly if you get offered a position... graduate programs are also a good way of getting into a big company.. money is usually good and you get a lot of exposure to a lot of different projects and departments etc for the first 3 years or so... a friend of mine got into the AIB IT grad program and he thinks its great.. hes doing software dev stuff...

apply to those types of places as well.. its defo worth a shot...

anyway.. take your time and good luck...

PCgirl

It is scary how many people have a 1,1 more than 5% I'd say
a lot of companies are looking for nerds and won't look at anything less that a high result (shame)

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by PCgirl
It is scary how many people have a 1,1 more than 5% I'd say
a lot of companies are looking for nerds and won't look at anything less that a high result (shame)

Assume 20%. What about the 80%?

Johnny Versace

OK so you're telling me this is the situation -

College graduates can walk into jobs easily enough

Yet experienced developers (who I know a lot of) can't get any work... because they're not recent graduates?

It makes no sense.

Peace

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
Build engineer on the MS Works team.

There's your problem right there....

Imposter

Originally posted by Third_Echelon
graduate programs are also a good way of getting into a big company.. money is usually good and you get a lot of exposure to a lot of different projects and departments etc for the first 3 years or so... a friend of mine got into the AIB IT grad program and he thinks its great.. hes doing software dev stuff...

apply to those types of places as well.. its defo worth a shot...

Unless this has changed in the last 2 years these programs have to be applied to well before now.

Third_Echelon

Originally posted by PCgirl
It is scary how many people have a 1,1 more than 5% I'd say
a lot of companies are looking for nerds and won't look at anything less that a high result (shame)

i think you'll find that companies look for people who are not bookworms... the best 'people' are usually in the 2,1 2,2 category... talking to recruiters in some large companies they say that the people in these categories have a better practical and overall understanding of subjects etc..

those with 1,1, fair play to them.. they know their theory inside out and the results show this, but when it comes to applying what they know, sometimes it doesn't work out as well...

so in short... if you have a 2,1 or 2,2 you're fine... you have shown you can apply yourself...

PCgirl

well the other 80% get the jobs the 20% didn't want!
I don't know ... guess its a bit more difficult to get a job if you have a 2,2 but you should have worked harder !
I still maintain that the markert is fluid

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by Peace
There's your problem right there....

Hey I'm very much in the "experienced developer" situation.

I have many of years development (C/C++/Perl/PHP) on Windows, Linux and QNX.

I find it difficult to get full-time work, so I do most of my work as contracts for companies outside Ireland.

Again, there are a lot of people in my situation.

...

The problem with development is that it doesn't have a future in Ireland. Why hire an Irish graduate for 25k when you can hire an Indian with a PhD and 10 years experience for 6k?

If I were you I'd start learning Indian.

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by PCgirl
well the other 80% get the jobs the 20% didn't want!
I don't know ... guess its a bit more difficult to get a job if you have a 2,2 but you should have worked harder !
I still maintain that the markert is fluid

I'm really not trying to be offensive here, but you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

"The market is fluid". That is just nonsense.

Third_Echelon

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
Hey I'm very much in the "experienced developer" situation.

I have many of years development (C/C++/Perl/PHP) on Windows, Linux and QNX.

I find it difficult to get full-time work, so I do most of my work as contracts for companies outside Ireland.

Again, there are a lot of people in my situation.

...

The problem with development is that it doesn't have a future in Ireland. Why hire an Irish graduate for 25k when you can hire an Indian with a PhD and 10 years experience for 6k?

If I were you I'd start learning Indian.

Ireland cannot compete with these markets... its a fact...

the key for IT people in ireland is upskilling... go on a few courses.. better your skills for jobs that cannot be done in india or china...

PCgirl

Well perhaps you are looking in the wrong place or don't have the skills people want
all I can say is from what I have seen

minority

I regularly hire people for my team.
I dont hire graduates (and neither do any of my peers that i know in similar positions) because they are pretty useless before you train them.
While we had the money and the time to train them a few years ago, its a waste of money these days.
I want people with relevant experience, who can walk right in and start working.
Sometimes its hard to find the right person, but not as hard as it was 3 years ago.
1.1 or 3.1 results are all the same when interviewing a graduate. They all know SFA and require extensive training(but they really do think they know it all).

PCGirl, you obviously arent very experienced at hiring if you give 1.1 the weight you do. You dont work for accenture by any change. They have a fetish about 1.1s thats bitten them in the arse with social misfits several times (the words of a former HR person there, who i went to school with)

Third_Echelon

Originally posted by Imposter
Unless this has changed in the last 2 years these programs have to be applied to well before now.

yeah you are right... its usually around october to january that the interviews etc are done for this....

this guy could however go for the next round in october with these companies and find something in between if he is willing to wait for a good job with a good company...

Peace

Originally posted by Third_Echelon
yeah you are right... its usually around october to january that the interviews etc are done for this....

this guy could however go for the next round in october with these companies and find something in between if he is willing to wait for a good job with a good company...

I would definately consider graduate programs... theres nothing wrong with them. I found my under grad experience in MS to be excellent and after all it was a development position i held there.

I may well end up doing other work for the summer but thats all good with me. The last thing i need is to be foreced into a low paid job filled with drones where they treat you like crap!

PCgirl

I never said I gave a 1,1 priority nor did I mean to imply that people with a 1,1 are inheriently better, however they do seem to get better offers when companies are hiring ... its just the way it is

Third_Echelon

Originally posted by Peace
I would definately consider graduate programs... theres nothing wrong with them. I found my under grad experience in MS to be excellent and after all it was a development position i held there.

I may well end up doing other work for the summer but thats all good with me. The last thing i need is to be foreced into a low paid job filled with drones where they treat you like crap!

good attitude... from the work experience that you have it will stand by you.. i had similar work experience.. i did IT support for 3 years while in college and i did a development job for the summer between my 3rd and final year... employers for grad positions are definitely impressed with this...

a guy with a 2,2 and some experience will get just as good as if not better than just a guy with a 1,1 and no experience...

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by Third_Echelon
a guy with a 2,2 and some experience will get just as good as if not better than just a guy with a 1,1 and no experience...

Indeed.

Experience is the key.

RicardoSmith

I think as grad you might have better luck than someone with a few years experience. I have had quite a few people tell me that I am too experienced, even when pitching for a jobs where I don't come close to meeting the spec.

jank

Originally posted by minority
I regularly hire people for my team.
I dont hire graduates (and neither do any of my peers that i know in similar positions) because they are pretty useless before you train them.
While we had the money and the time to train them a few years ago, its a waste of money these days.
I want people with relevant experience, who can walk right in and start working.
Sometimes its hard to find the right person, but not as hard as it was 3 years ago.
1.1 or 3.1 results are all the same when interviewing a graduate. They all know SFA and require extensive training(but they really do think they know it all).

thats all well and good but grads have to start somewhere dont they?
come 2-3 years down the road i feel there could be a serious skills shortage in IT cause compnies wont train grads with new skills

catch 22 aint it

PCgirl

and a 1,1 ... just kidding !

skipn_easy

27 and 40 are two graduate offers I've heard of.

Peace

Originally posted by skipn_easy
27 and 40 are two graduate offers I've heard of.

Now those are som pretty sweet offers!

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by jank
thats all well and good but grads have to start somewhere dont they?
come 2-3 years down the road i feel there could be a serious skills shortage in IT cause compnies wont train grads with new skills

catch 22 aint it

I was with an IT company for many years and they never sent me on a single training course. I had to do any courses myself. It seems to be a common trend in IT in Ireland. With all the outsourcing, and in fairness you can outsource nearly everything. I think the IT industry will downsize massively in Ireland in the next few years.

As for there being a lot jobs. Look at the Irish times and Monster.ie. Yes theres a few jobs, but theres not that many. There used to be 3-4 pages in the Irish Times. Now there about 3-4 ads. On monster theres about 10 jobs a day.

Compare that to Recruit Ireland and you think there were a couple of hundred new jobs everyday. But in fact the majority of those jobs have been up there for weeks if not months and you have 4 or 5 agencies all posting the same job with slightly different discriptions. Basically most of it is recruitment spam.

PCgirl

Elan IT are good for getting IT Jobs
I don't work for them or anything just saying

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Peace
Now those are som pretty sweet offers!

Well according to some IT salary survey in the papers recent the average IT salary in Ireland is €44k.

joe_chicken

Originally posted by PCgirl
I never said I gave a 1,1 priority nor did I mean to imply that people with a 1,1 are inheriently better, however they do seem to get better offers when companies are hiring ... its just the way it is

you are one of those companies!?

and the quote about you should have worked harder!!!!

this just goes to show why recruitment agencies are crap!

joe_chicken

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Well according to some IT salary survey in the papers recent the average IT salary in Ireland is €44k.

thats one person on 100000000000000
and the rest on 20k doing tech support

PCgirl

I was joking about the work harder bit
and I am not one of those companies, I don't work for a recruitment agency and never would