guys and gals, the same insurance?

daggeredge

quick Q,
every1 knows that the EU wanted to approve a bill whereby all the member states drivers would pay the same rate of insurance according to their age & NOT their sex just wanted to know if every1 thought this was a good / bad thing and does any1 know if it was passed will be passed yet. (my relations have it in Canada already). I'm male so I think its brilliant !!

also I know women could be annoyed because their premiums could be going up...but in the long term I think its fair (there are a lot of men , who don't take risks....me included) and I think that womens driving is over glorified (just think how many women have you seen today on the phone, doin make up...not taking off because of this and the new fad TEXTING while driving)

I know men do this too but I do find that i see more women doing it...could be just me!
have your say!

Smurphy

Totally disagree....

I drive about 270 miles Mon - Fri coming in and out of work.

Only once have I seen a woman doing her make-up.....but she wasn't driving. There was a traffic jam so the cars weren't moving anyway.

I am so sick of seeing men, particularly business men on the phone. If they need to be reached on their mobiles, why the hell don't they get hands free kits.
It is blatently obvious that they are not paying attention to the road when they are having their little meetings over the phone.....a lot of them have no common sense..

I do think that if statistics prove(and they do) that men are more dangerous drivers than women, then mens' insurance should be higher.
Not that it will slow them down or anything......but they should be penalised in some way.

daggeredge

Business men on the fone annoy me too! Does anyone See the whole texting thing in the car at all? My cousin does it and I now refuse to be in her car while she's driving....

Imposter

Age should not be used to justify premiums either. Driving experience should. Everyone, male or female, should have the same premium for similar cars irrespective of age if their driving experience is the same.

In saying that premiums should also be reasonable for anyone who has not has an accident who is on a full licence.

ravenhead

I would have to completely disagree with this move. I drive 50 miles per day to & from work & every & I mean every accident that I see involves some thick boy racer that in all sense shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel of a car in the first place!!!!!
I know that some women can be the most annoying drivers on the face of the earth but at least they are being some what careful.
& The pathetic behaviour of some men on the roads is so infuriating - they think they have the God given right to over take when they wont - cut you off when they want & generally be the rudiest drivers on the road....
Now that I've that off my chest.....
Again NO I really don't think that the same rates should apply for men & women!

Imposter

Smurphy and ravenhead,

In your opinions, should extra factors like class or education be allowed to determine premiums too. Surely there would be a difference between better educated (school education not driver education) people too?

Imo any criteria that is not solely linked to driving experience is unfair on a significant percentage of drivers and should not be allowed.

Also if the weighting was on female drivers and not males does anyone think it would be tolerated as long as the current system has been?

tk123

WHY do people (mostly women) kind of wave at you after a near miss - like you're driving along and they pull out without looking - you jam on your breaks and then they kind of wave and carry on ........???

ravenhead

Come on Imposter - it's a known fact that accidents involving men cost nearly twice as much as women's accidents... I'm not saying that women are better driver - of course not... but we are more careful & on that only should premiums be decided...

Imposter

Originally posted by ravenhead
Come on Imposter - it's a known fact that accidents involving men cost nearly twice as much as women's accidents... I'm not saying that women are better driver - of course not... but we are more careful & on that only should premiums be decided...

I don't doubt that based on the statistics the insurance companies use that women are less of a risk but would you not agree that it may also be possible to further divide those categories into black/white or highly educated/not-so-highly educated and come up with similar statistics?

Also using such a broad category as sex of the driver they fail to adequately consider the experience of the driver which should be the primary weighting imo.

A system where a female on a provisional licence can get insurance cheaper than a male on a full licence is really fücked up and I can't see how anyone can honestly agree that such a system is fair.

ravenhead

But you have see it from the side of accidents that occur - I know that women have more fender benders than men - but look at the amount of fatel/near fatel accidents that occur with men involved. I know that the experience of a driver should be taken into concideration with it comes to insurance, but honestly think about it - you have a 19/20 year old girl - provisional license - driving along - she isn't driving long so she's taking her time(really taking her time) - we've all met them... then you have a 19/20 year old guy - provisional / full lisence which ever - it doesn't really matter - he's confident behind the wheel so he'll drive faster ... & he does - we've all met them too....
I can see what you're saying & no in an ideal world it doesnt seem right - but to tell you the truth - if it makes it a little hard for a guy to get his insurance isn't it better -
I know I'd prefer to met the slow woman on the road instead of the guy that THINKS he has control of his car.... this the only point I'm trying to make.. until guys learn to slow down, their insurance is never going to come down & that's only right....

Merrion

Insurers get details of all road accidents involving insured people and put them in a big program (which I have written a part of for one company) and out comes the risk loading. Sex is, I'm afraid, a very big factor....young men are by far the most high risk insurance prospects so they pay the highest premiums.

Imposter

Originally posted by ravenhead
I know I'd prefer to met the slow woman on the road instead of the guy that THINKS he has control of his car.... this the only point I'm trying to make.. until guys learn to slow down, their insurance is never going to come down & that's only right.... [/B]

And the point i'm trying to make is that you cannot classify all guys or gals as the same especially when such a classification has little relevance to why you are classifying them.

ravenhead

Originally posted by Merrion
Insurers get details of all road accidents involving insured people and put them in a big program (which I have written a part of for one company) and out comes the risk loading. Sex is, I'm afraid, a very big factor....young men are by far the most high risk insurance prospects so they pay the highest premiums.

I rest my case..... I see what you're saying & in part I agree with you - that's how it should be - but it never will be under the current circumstances....

Imposter

Originally posted by Merrion
Insurers get details of all road accidents involving insured people and put them in a big program (which I have written a part of for one company) and out comes the risk loading. Sex is, I'm afraid, a very big factor....young men are by far the most high risk insurance prospects so they pay the highest premiums.

But why is it that they can legally discrimate based on sex and not on things such as education or race? I don't think anyone here is saying that is doesn't happen it's just an unfair way of judging risk. Do you know do insurance companies ever use any other criteria (even if they can't publish it) to see if there is a better method of judging risk than using the driver's age?

ravenhead

Originally posted by Imposter
But why is it that they can legally discrimate based on sex and not on things such as education or race? I don't think anyone here is saying that is doesn't happen it's just an unfair way of judging risk. Do you know do insurance companies ever use any other criteria (even if they can't publish it) to see if there is a better method of judging risk than using the driver's age?

I really don't know -- but why would some one race or education be a fact???????
A person isn't more likely to crash his car because he is black or comes from a gfood background & went to all the right schools... that has nothing to do with driving - were as SEX does... it's a fact of nature that women are more careful & think things throught more then men - whether she be black white, yellow - what ever - it doesn't matter....

Stephen

way to paint us all with the same brush.

why should ALL male drivers be penalised for the activities of the usual boy racer ****?
I have a penis, therefore i should pay twice as much as you for insurance? Fúck off.

Illkillya

Originally posted by ravenhead
it's a fact of nature that women are more careful & think things throught more then men - whether she be black white, yellow - what ever - it doesn't matter....

"Facts of nature" dont just spring up on insurance companies' policies. They are based on stastics. So if men have bigger/more accidents than women and cost the insurance company more money, why not charge men more? Similarly, if black people crash more and cost more money for the insurance company than white people, why not charge black people more too? Makes perfect sense statistically doesn't it?

Imposter

Originally posted by ravenhead
I really don't know -- but why would some one race or education be a fact???????

That's my point they've nothing to do with it. Same as the fact that your sex doesn't make you a better driver.

A person isn't more likely to crash his car because he is black or comes from a gfood background & went to all the right schools... that has nothing to do with driving - were as SEX does...

I'm pretty sure if statistics were available for it that it could be shown that people with a college education would be less of a risk, compared to people who dropped out of school early. But that would be penalising a large percentage of early-school-leavers who are probably just as good drivers as those who have a college education.

it's a fact of nature that women are more careful & think things throught more then men - whether she be black white, yellow - what ever - it doesn't matter....

ROFL

Villain

Equal rights should mean just that, every MAN and WOMAN should get equal rights, if either has a crash then penalise them but not before just because of their sex.

ravenhead

But sex does have a baring on accidents & no argument about it being fair unfair whatever is going to change that... I think it would be great if it was the same across the board but its not so why should I pay more for my insurance just so guys can get what you call equality???? Check any accident stats & you'll see what I mean .... It's a sorry way to be but that's the facts... I know & you know that it's not right but that's why insurance companies employee risk assessers & if it happened to be that women causes more accidents & cost more money then we would have higher premiums it only goes without saying....

Villain

Originally posted by ravenhead
But sex does have a baring on accidents & no argument about it being fair unfair whatever is going to change that... I think it would be great if it was the same across the board but its not so why should I pay more for my insurance just so guys can get what you call equality???? Check any accident stats & you'll see what I mean .... It's a sorry way to be but that's the facts... I know & you know that it's not right but that's why insurance companies employee risk assessers & if it happened to be that women causes more accidents & cost more money then we would have higher premiums it only goes without saying....

Yes so punish the people after they have caused an accident.

I'm 22 and have been driving since I was 17 and never been in an accident, I know a good few woman I went to school and college with that have been in accidents, yet I pay high insurance because I'm male and young.

Thats injust and wrong, the EU law will change it and if the teh insurance companies try to ignore it they will be brought to the European court of Justice where they will lose. So I hope the insurance companies do ignore it and end up with a huge legal bill.

It's sexist, simple, no matter what stats you can produce its sexist plain and simple.

Oh and did you know that Insurance companies make more money from young men than any other group, robbing bastards

ravenhead

Of course they make more money cause it's mostly men that are involved in high paying accidents which means that their premiums are going up & up from all the accidents that are happening... & it's not sexist - it's a matter of fact that men are in more road accidents than women... how is that a sexist statement????? It's true?????

Imposter

Originally posted by ravenhead
Check any accident stats & you'll see what I mean .... It's a sorry way to be but that's the facts...

Do you know why those facts don't show other criteria that may be used to calculate risk? I'll tell you, because they are not legal. It's illegal to use discriminatory criteria other than age and sex to calculate insurance risk. That is despite it being illegal to use these criteria to discriminate in more or less every other situation where discrimination can happen.

Villain

Originally posted by ravenhead
Of course they make more money cause it's mostly men that are involved in high paying accidents which means that their premiums are going up & up from all the accidents that are happening... & it's not sexist - it's a matter of fact that men are in more road accidents than women... how is that a sexist statement????? It's true?????

It is sexist to be charged more for the same policy if your male and never been in an accident than a fmeale who has never been in an accident.

They make money from young males because they are chraging every young male driver WHO HAS NEVER BEEN IN A ACCIDENT way too much.

KlodaX

I know men and women who have been in car accidents.

what I don't understand is old people. You know the ones that never had to do a driving test ... or at least it wasn't as difficult when they first got their driving test many moons ago... a relative of mine has a driving liscence and never did a test... it was at a time when there was a huge backlog of people waiting to do the test so they just handed out the liscences!?!?

thing is.. because of their age those people have the cheapest insurance! ...IMO thats mental.

The people who learn't to drive before round-a-bouts where invented ... I lost track of the amount of times I've been flipped of by old men in mercs on mobile phones cause they think I cut THEM off!!! not the other way round.
They probably go home bitching about the stupid young female driver and how her insurance is so cheap... gimps.

I think the insurance companys link agressive driving with testosterone.

ravenhead

Originally posted by irish1
It is sexist to be charged more for the same policy if your male and never been in an accident than a fmeale who has never been in an accident.

They make money from young males because they are chraging every young male driver WHO HAS NEVER BEEN IN A ACCIDENT way too much.

It would be great if it worked that way but it doesn't - insurance companies do you risk factors to determine premiums.

Villain

Originally posted by ravenhead
It would be great if it worked that way but it doesn't - insurance companies do you risk factors to determine premiums.

Yes but sex shouldn't be a factor, having it as a factor is SEXIST.

Stuff

Sorry if this has been covered already. Insurance should be the same for eveyone starting, as in countries like Germany. Everyone starts at a reasonably high rate(for that country ) of about €800 r €1000 and this drops year on year if you are accident free till its hits bout €200 - €300. It stays like that unless you have an accident.


On the issue of charging more for a high risk catagory (men) this is ridiculous. If the insurance company came up with statistics to say that all black people for instance, or everyone who is protestant had more accidents , would it be ok to charge them more. I have a feeling a raceism case would arise from all that.

KlodaX

what about ageism?

Villain

Originally posted by KlodaX
what about ageism?

Well it's more to do with years of driving experience than actual age

Lemming

Originally posted by ravenhead
so why should I pay more for my insurance just so guys can get what you call equality????

Why should I have to compete for jobs/pay with women so that you can get equality?

Oh wait .... because it's not right and is sexist :rolleyes:

The insurance companies pull quotes out of their arses. Friends of mine who have been driving for years (one or two who even have advanced driving training) and have no claims whatsoever have encountered this random-number-generator behaviour on more than one occasion.

Further to the fact that the insurance companies are raping the irish consumer for everything they have doesn't help the (huge) disparrity in premiums.

ravenhead

Originally posted by Lemming
Why should I have to compete for jobs/pay with women so that you can get equality?

Oh wait .... because it's not right and is sexist :rolleyes:

Oh come on... you & I both know that still goes on...
But all the arguing in the world is not going to change the fact that men are charged more because they are a higher risk... that's it ... it has nothing to do with anything else & rightly so ....

KlodaX

Originally posted by irish1
Well it's more to do with years of driving experience than actual age

so a man who goes for first time insurance at 40 will get the same quote as a man who goes for first time insurance at 20?

I didn't know that.

Lemming

Originally posted by ravenhead
Oh come on... you & I both know that still goes on...

Yes, but we both condemn it - and there is legal comeback to it. However you seem to support the reverse with great glee since it suits you.

Two wrongs, all men are bastards/rapists, etc, etc. ......

But all the arguing in the world is not going to change the fact that men are charged more because they are a higher risk... that's it ... it has nothing to do with anything else & rightly so ....

I've placed the relevant words in itallics. "Risk" does not denote "Actual" reality. So why not charge those who are actually IN accidents as opposed to tarring everyone with the same brush, a la the "All men are bastards/rapists" vein of thinking.

As I've said, the insurance companies in Ireland are pulling quotes/figures out of their arses, and then proceeding to rape the Irish consumer.

ravenhead

Originally posted by KlodaX
so a man who goes for first time insurance at 40 will get the same quote as a man who goes for first time insurance at 20?

I didn't know that.

Well kind of but it may be a little lower

Imposter

Originally posted by ravenhead
But all the arguing in the world is not going to change the fact that men are charged more because they are a higher risk... that's it ...

And similarly all this arguing is not going to change the fact that women will be paying the same as men very soon.... and rightly so.

Try arguing the points raised against you and not repeating what you've already said I dunno how many times.

Villain

Originally posted by KlodaX
so a man who goes for first time insurance at 40 will get the same quote as a man who goes for first time insurance at 20?

I didn't know that.

I didn't say it was purely experience obviously its not, but if you argue the ageism argument thats what you will get told.

Merrion

But why is it that they can legally discrimate based on sex and not on things such as education or race? I don't think anyone here is saying that is doesn't happen it's just an unfair way of judging risk.

They can 'discriminate' on medical grounds even though the people they 'discriminate' against have a full and valid driving license. Try getting insurance if you are diabetic for instance.

They do indirectly discriminate on education - when you fill in your quote request the profession does have a small weighting.

koneko

Originally posted by irish1
Well it's more to do with years of driving experience than actual age

I checked quotes online, filled it in as a male with prov licence (for someone else obviously:) ), no driving experience and no previous insurance. The quote dropped dramatically once the age changed to 25 and over. Driving experience did not increase, the only thing that changed was the age of the driver.

I can see both sides of this arguement. Doesn't mean I'm particularly happy about this as it means my insurance will increase dramatically, while I haven't become any more of a risk and am a good driver.

Villain

Originally posted by koneko
I checked quotes online, filled it in as a male with prov licence (for someone else obviously:) ), no driving experience and no previous insurance. The quote dropped dramatically once the age changed to 25 and over. Driving experience did not increase, the only thing that changed was the age of the driver.

I can see both sides of this arguement. Doesn't mean I'm particularly happy about this as it means my insurance will increase dramatically, while I haven't become any more of a risk and am a good driver.

Ok let me say this as simply as possible, I dont agree that people should suffer because of their age, I was replying to a question of whether or not it is ageism.

I was simply stating that if you accused an insurance company of this they would say it was down to experience, I know they do it by experience also and its wrong but hard to combat that with law.

I think it is something do that the EU should look at

ravenhead

Originally posted by Lemming
Yes, but we both condemn it - and there is legal comeback to it. However you seem to support the reverse with great glee since it suits you.

Two wrongs, all men are bastards/rapists, etc, etc. ......

This is certainly not the case - If it appears like that apoligises .... All I am trying to say is that whatever or whoever the higher risk group is should have higher premiums - be that women or men which ever way it goes... & If it does come in that men are treated more fairly when it comes to insurance then great - that is not my issue & if you read any of my posts you will see that .... All I have answered & yes sometimes repeating myself(maybe I am not being clear enough) is that at the moment because of the higher stats againist man drivers because of the higher rates of accidents their premiums are going to be higher & stay higher while the current method of assessing insurance premiums exists. & to be perfectly honest with you if it were the other way around & it was women that were being charged more I would be saying the exact same thing... by all means if charging more insurance to guys makes them think that second longer before they do something stupid on the road then great - cause it could be you or me that's the next person to meet him on the road.....enough said....

Wrestlemania

Sex should not be an issue, I am for women paying the same because everyone is an induvidual and has a different mind. Yes penalise the wrong doers but not there sex.

Women for to long have been getting away with Bullsh1t and lower prices..The fact remains there are guys out there all to happy to be behind a well and are being tarred with the same brush as a Muppet in a supped up fiesta..

Just because I got a Knob does not mean I just get kicked in it for driving.

And why at 27 should I pay more than a gombeen girl of 19. Eventhough I have been driving for 7 years.

My sister pays 424 a year for her premium and my father 600 why is this when she has been driving for 3 years and my dad 30 years without an accident.

Clear and simple pure bullsh1t so ladies payback is a bitch a so DEAL WITH IT.

Gmodified

what kind of the statement is this.

This is F€€cked up idea.

You shouldn't pay for somebody's careless driving. You should be responsible for you own action and this should be reflected in your premium. I agree that experience is important and should be reflected in insurance premium but 6000euro insurance euro doesn't reflect anything else the rip off.


Young driver is not necessary a boy racer, because his under 25 and the same applies to males and females.



Some people should take the heads out from their exhaust pipes and have look around.

ravenhead

As I said I do agree that the current system isn't fair to everyone but with the way that premiums are judged at the moment (i.e Risk assessment) That is going to happen....

Wrestlemania

Risks should be assess on the induvidual on not there gender...

My dad is the most careful driver in the world yet little madams pay less and have'nt a clue...

30 years experience is longer than some of us are alive...

Now tell me there is no discrimination on sex... it is clear and simple men have less rights than women in a multitude of situtations including driving.

And they say its a mans world. I beg to differ Ladies.

Merrion

It is impossible to asses risk on an individual basis as the sample size is too small.

However if you can prove to your insurer that you are a lesser risk than the average person in your bracket they will probably reduce your premium. You can do this by doing an advanced driving test or agreeing a limited mileage policy.

I appreciate that many men would like to reduce their premium but low insurance premiums are not a "right".

ravenhead

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Just because I got a Knob does not mean I just get kicked in it for driving.

And why at 27 should I pay more than a gombeen girl of 19. Eventhough I have been driving for 7 years.

My sister pays 424 a year for her premium and my father 600 why is this when she has been driving for 3 years and my dad 30 years without an accident.

Clear and simple pure bullsh1t so ladies payback is a bitch a so DEAL WITH IT.

I'd like to know who your sister is getting her insurance from - I'm 26 driving 4 years - my car is 1.1 & my insurance is 1120.00........
She got some deal.... so it's not just guys....

Wrestlemania

Hibernian I think

rymus

I'm of the opinion that your insurance premium should be based on how well (or otherwise) you drive. Isn't that the whole idea? Instantly punishing people because they are young or have whatever inny or outy bits is nothing short of lunacy.

What you pay to insure yourself should be based on a comprehensive driving skills test and perhaps (in the case of some of the more prone to road rage) a complete psychological evaluation.

This whole culture of insurance companies being able to roll figures off the tops of their heads is madness. "Ahh you're male, 21 years old and driving a 1 litre car.. lets say.... 6000 euro?" No bloody wonder the insurance sector is constantly reporting such high profits, despite the never ending crying of poverty.

Wrestlemania

Originally posted by Merrion
It is impossible to asses risk on an individual basis as the sample size is too small.

However if you can prove to your insurer that you are a lesser risk than the average person in your bracket they will probably reduce your premium. You can do this by doing an advanced driving test or agreeing a limited mileage policy.

I appreciate that many men would like to reduce their premium but low insurance premiums are not a "right".

I have do the real advance drivining test and my insurance on a 1.4 car with 7 years is 1100 my girlfriend who is 20 with a provisonal license and 2 years is 800 with hibernian mmmm..

Well tell women low inusrance is not a right...they will storm dail eireann most likely:p

Lemming

Originally posted by Merrion
However if you can prove to your insurer that you are a lesser risk than the average person in your bracket they will probably reduce your premium. You can do this by doing an advanced driving test or agreeing a limited mileage policy.

One of my friends in particular who is a few years older than me, and has been driving since he was 17 - so about 10 years now - also has advanced driving training. And I don't mean "ignition" or any such crap like that. I'm talking "advanced driving", ie. high-speed handling, hazardous surfaces handling, etc, etc. and also has a no-claims, and still gets the random-number-generator experience.

I appreciate that many men would like to reduce their premium but low insurance premiums are not a "right".

I appreciate that many women want to work in the same jobs that men can do, but jobs are not a "right"

*COUGH COUGH* :rolleyes:

Want cake. Eat cake ........