AMD 64 overclocking.

Azza

Hi folks I'm currently looking at upgrading everything at the moment except my AMD 64 3400 cpu. Question is this I'm looking at a very serious cooling machine to overclock my system.

Leaves me with 2 questions. If for an example I be using a MACH II or similar cooler would it really be nesscary to move to a nforce 250(GB) motherboard or will I get good overclocking from my current nforce 150 on my GA-K8NNXP.

Secondly the overclocking going be serious what is the best ram for the job. What speed does amd 64 support up to. Is there any advantage me buying ram over pc3200. I'm looking at the OCZ stuff or maybe gold dragon from geil. Just how high would I need to go in that department.

Col_Loki

Well the MachII is prob the best cooler on the market so that is going to get great results. The main problem with the NF150 motherboards is the AGP/PCI speed, ie when you are running at overclocked speeds you are also overclocking your hard disks etc.....So no ammount of CPU cooling is going to help this.

The NF250 should insure that the main thing holding you back will be your CPU...... which is what you want your MachII for.

On the AMD64's the multiplier is unlocked downward. Ie your multplier is 11 so this means you can use 10x, 9x, 8.5x etc etc. The main advatage of this is High FSB ........ so you can go with say a multiplier of 10 and FSB of 250mhz leaving you with 2.5ghz or 9 x 278FSB also giving you 2.5ghz. This means higher speed memory would be a good option as you have a fairly flexable overclock.

Higher FSB combined with higher Memory speed = better performance. Mabye think about Pc4000 memory (or higher), that would be by opinion on it.

Azza

Okay PC 4000 Memory it is now I just need to find a motherboard of the nforce 250 that address the pci lock. I'm looking for a motherboard in conjunction with the new memory and cooler to get to 2.8ghz

Col_Loki

I know the MachII should hit that and theres one for sale on the for sale forums (which you prob know about), but theres also a Vapochill PE which doesent perform aswell but its still a fantastic cooler.

Some great reading here .......... (AMD64 - 2.5ghz on air, 250Mhz FSB x 10) .......http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=287888&highlight=gautam

Another very interesting one about the boards with PCI/AGP locks............ http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=291331&highlight=gautam

Most of the guys posting are very good overclockers and also very experienced......... definetly worth a read!!

[edit] PS you really are going for a complete monster of a system arent you . Mainly gaming? How do you find the A64, everyone says its so smooth for windows and love the new chip....... roll on socket 939 and win64 .

neokenzo

The higher the ram, the less the timings are right? I am looking to upgrade my memory too but was looking at it and seem that shop4memory's high end ram seems to have looser timing.

Col_Loki

If your Ram is running at 220mhz (440mhz DDR) @ 2-2-2-7 then its hard to find better Ram TBH. The higher memory speeds come at the expense of looser timings.

You could try upping the voltage on the memory and going to a higher FSB, or loosening your existing timings to get it to go higher.

Thinking more about it, memory like the Mushkin Level 2 might be a better option than Pc4000. The AMD64's seem to perform well with tighter timing memory and the Mushkin can do very tight timings at reasonable high FSB. Im not 100% about the memory question so ill have to do more research .......
I know the board will take advantage of the increased memory speed and the board should do 300mhz FSB without much problems but wheater tigher timings / increased speed perform better on the A64 platform im not sure.

Its very new and there havent been alot of test cases. Neo that ram seems to be very good to you at the min, you would have to be lucky to get better Ram TBH and it would prob be a waste of money,.

Col_Loki

Heres an indication of how memory timings affect gaming......... http://www20.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20040119/index-05.html (ignore lower resolution as you wont be using that setting i presume ).

Heres some benchmarks of a P4 system, for gaming .......
The DDR400 with 2-2-2-5 timings performed better than the DDR500 3-4-4-8. For P4's memory timings are very important for gaming, i think its not as important for AMD64 but ill try to get some benchmarks to back that up.
P4 benchmarks.... http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=873&page=4

Azza

This is the system I aim to have at end of next month.


AMD 64 3400 2.2Ghz @ 2.8Ghz ( Which matchs P4 4.0Ghz and with xp 64 will move up to about 4.4Ghz) Using MACH II cooler.
(Unkown at this Time nforce 250 motherboard)
1 Gig PC 4000 RAM with 4-4-7 timings either Gold Dragon from Geil or OCZ Gold Latency Enhanced.
Geforce 6800 Ultra 512MB or X800XT which ever performs better.
Raid 0 Dual Raptor (they are 10,000rpm hard drives 144 GIG)

I reckon 3D mark 2001 scores of over 30,000 and 2003 of hopefully 14,000

Currently on 19,000 marks and 6350 repectively.

I want an uber system.

Col_Loki

_______________________________________________________________


Ok after alot of reading.......... stick with lower memory timings if your main interest is gaming. The increased bandwidth and slower timings will decrease your gaming performance on the AMD64 system. Keep the timings as tight to the highest FSB its stable at and then use dividers if need be.

Here shows a comparison of the AMD64 (3200+) V An opertron (basically the exact same chip) . The opertron is on a dual channel board and thus has increased bandwidth. The timings are slightly slower and it uses registered memory.
Results were that the AMD64 bet it in almost all the tests.......

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/print/athlon64-3200.html

Stick with low timing Ram ......... like the OCZ or Mushkin Level 2 etc.......

Hope this is some help, i found it very interesting!!

___________________________________________________________________

AMD 64 3400 2.2Ghz @ 2.8Ghz ( Which matchs P4 4.0Ghz and with xp 64 will move up to about 4.4Ghz) Using MACH II cooler.

It would probably exceed a 4ghz P4 , especially when it comes to gaming........... ouch thats fast.

1 Gig PC 4000 RAM with 4-4-7 timings either Gold Dragon from Geil or OCZ Gold Latency Enhanced.

As mentioned above the tighter timings are actually more important to gaming than bandwidth is.......... The best Ram on the market is Pc3500 Mushkin Level 2 (2-2-2-5) timings and with extra voltage should get near 230mhz FSB which is extreme memory performance.

PS sorry bout mentioning the Pc4000 memory, the fact that the board can avail of the extra bandwidth doesent mean increased performance in general.

Raid 0 Dual Raptor (they are 10,000rpm hard drives 144 GIG)

Drool , definetly ......... was very close to getting 2 of these myself but went for silence over performance.

I want an uber system.

TBH i dont see how you could possibly get a better system , total killer rig..........

[edit] PS your Ram is prob the reason your not breaking 20k at the min, with a system like that you should be talkin 22kish.

Col_Loki

Ohh and also neo ........ have a look at this review of your memory ..... http://thecrucible.ca/reviews/ocz_plat3200/overclocking.htm

OCZ Platinum DDR ram was made for overclocking on the Nforce2 platform. I was able to reach 466Mhz with 5-3-2-2 timings at only 2.9v

Fantastic result, performance very simular to BH5/6 memory (possible has these chips). So there is no point IMO in upgrading your memory as its some of the best the market has to offer at the min.

[edit] Yea they are based on winbond BH5/6 chips to DONT sell that Ram . You could chance increasing the voltage (i would do it on my own system but wouldnt recomend anything extreme to other people) and keep low timings at higher FSB. Some people are reporting 2-2-2 timings at 240-250mhz FSB with very high voltage.......... 3.3v was mentioned. Dont think its worth risking that great ram on that high voltage, mabye 3v but wouldnt exceed that.

neokenzo

The reason why I am thinking about it is because I will probably be upgrading to the nforce3 250 board later. With the new board, I'll probably be able to reach a higher fsb. I just hope that it wont be held back by the ram.

Also, about a month ago when I first started to overclock, I had ran Prime95 stable for about 8 hours. Since then I have had BIOS upgrade and was messing with different setting on my fsb and timings. So a couple of days ago, I tried running Prime 95 again and I cant get it to run stable again. Everything is at the way it used to be apart from the BIOS of course but no matter what settings I have on my memory, I am still getting error on Prime95. I ran Memtest86 for about 8 hours and everything is fine. Very strange. I would rather not go lower 220*10 but looks like I'll have to.

With the Asus mobo, its only giving me a max of 2.8V for memory. Eitherwise I would have run it higher a bit.

Col_Loki

I just hope that it wont be held back by the ram.

Well i dont think it will affect you much TBH. You could pop the FSB up to say 250-260 and use a Ram divider. The AMD64 looses no memory performance from having out of sync FSB and Memory (due mainly to the on die memory controller).

The Main thing to think about is , running Pc4000 Ram with an FSB of 250mhz will not perform as well as Running Pc3500 Ram @ 220mhz with tight timings. Even if you get High FSB you can use a divider to bring it to your memory speed so it wont hold you back there.
A P4 running Pc4000 @ 250mhz FSB (loose timings) is generally beaten by Pc3200 Memory (tight timings - FSB @ 250mhz using divider)......... especially for games.

Very strange with the BIOS thing, would you think about changing it back? Prime95 can be a b*tch for giving errors when it comes to memory. Pitty the Asus has such a low memory voltage limit.

Azza

What sort of divider should I go for and where can I obtain one.

Col_Loki

A divider basicaly devides the FSB speed........ it if the FSB is 200mhz and you use a 5:4 (FSB:RAM) divider then the memory will run at 160mhz.

You have alot of flexability with the AMD64 board as it unlocks the lower level multipliers, has memory dividers (mabye in % depending on board), and is capable of high FSB.
You should find the limit of your memory (at tight timings), find the limit of your CPU, and then find a nice medium where you can run your memory and CPU at pretty much top speed.

An example............ Your CPU tops out at 2.5ghz , memory at 210mhz (2-2-2 timings).... You can set FSB to 250mhz , multiplier to 10 (runs CPU @ 2.5ghz), Divider FSB:RAM - 6:5 which runs your memory at 209mhz.

An example of 2.8ghz, FSB @ 280, multi at 10, divider 6:5 ....... so Ram runs at 230mhz.
If your Ram only goes to 220mhz , FSB @ 266mhz, Multi @ 10.5, divider 6:5 .......... memory runs at 222mhz.

Hope thats some bit clear :dunno: ?

The fact that the AMD64 doesent loose performance from running the FSB out of sync with memory and it is downward multi unlocked are the main reasons it is so flexable. With the XP's you loose performance by running Memory out of sync with FSB, and with the intels the multi is totally locked.

Azza

Okay I'm looking at this memory
http://www.gobeyondltd.com/products/results.asp?id=62

Where will I get a good devider?

Col_Loki

Yea thats some of the best memory on the market......... fantastic for overclocking with the tightest timings. Would be the very best option IMO.

http://www.jes-computer.de/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=144_94&products_id=15406 (there here for €159 per 512mb).

Read post above about dividers...

Azza

How do I go about unlocking the mulit...don't see anything in the bios with it.

Just have cpu currently at 210 and agp overclock at 66(default) as well as voltage control.
I will see if there is a bios update. I understand the workings of the diveder but I don't know where to obtain one ....not on my board by default.

Col_Loki

Possibly on a BIOS update or on newer boards. Definetly on the nf250. In one of the above links its the exact method that is used, high FSB running memory @210mhz (tight timings) using a divider.

I know the AMD64's are downward unlocked, must just be an issue with the board.

Azza

Man something is up with gigabye site I can't access anything but the main page....Okay I think I'm well set on everything except motherboard. I see Asus have an nforce 250 board out shortly wait till I see reviews. Want to find the best overclocker.

Col_Loki

Yea its good to wait an see how they perform. Watch out for an Abit Nf250 to apear, they always have overclocking in mind when making motherboards and normally have higher voltage options, and aditional options when compared with Asus.

Azza

Sure I accept to build to complete this pc early next month but I will consult the boards before I do so.

Col_Loki

Well you seem to have it pretty much sussed , but wouldnt be a bad idea to post on the boards first just incase there is something to say about Nf250 boards, new cards etc etc.

neokenzo

Originally posted by Azza
How do I go about unlocking the mulit...don't see anything in the bios with it.

Just have cpu currently at 210 and agp overclock at 66(default) as well as voltage control.
I will see if there is a bios update. I understand the workings of the diveder but I don't know where to obtain one ....not on my board by default.

AFAIK, Gigabyte is known for thier lack of overclocking features. I wouldnt be suprised if it doesnt have a multiplier. Anyhoo, if it doesnt, try clockgen. Should be able to work.
The Gigabyte nforce3 250 review was somewhat dissapointing. It seems that they have put some rather cheap parts and made a poor attempt on the nforce3 250 for the 754 boards. Probably saving the good bits for the 939 sockets. As for Abit, they have announced that they will only be releasing the nforce3 250 boards for 939 sockets. So that pretty much leave either Chaintech, Epox, MSI or Asus I think.

I've tried actually lowering the divider on my ram and it had quite an effect. Running at DDR400, I got about 3400++ on memory benchmark from Sisoft Sandra and when I lowered it to DDR333, I'm only getting about 2800++. It seem that lowering the divider, your lowering the speed of course. Some ppl think that the A64's does not have much effects on timing. You dont gain much from having tighter timings.

Col_Loki

Comparing the A64 to the opertron, the tighter timings performed better than 50% bandwidth increase......... theres gotta be something to be said for that.

I agree you dont gain that much from tighter timings but if theres a choice between tighter timings or higher bandwidth then tighter timings wins. The actual performance difference is only shown with an unfair playing field. Try comparing performance of Ram at 3-4-4-8 @ 200mhz, and then 2-2-2-5 @ 200mhz, im betting the difference would be quite noticable.

The majour gains come when you get your Memory up to 220mhz - 235mhz at tight timings, as this in real applications will destroy looser timing Pc4000. And if your building a system with only performance in mind, then you want to get the best out of your ram also.

Azza

Check this link out on the performance of OCZ PC 3700 Enhanced bandwidth series.......http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=102535

Col_Loki

Wow that looks extremely impressive. I have been hearing good things about the EB series, but thats damm impressive.

AFAIK There is a Hynix 3.5ns chips comming on stream very shortly, considering the 4ns is hitting 300mhz+ in some cases.......... thats looking extremely promising.

Have a look at some AData Ram reviews, its cheap and overclocks like crazy.

Ohhh and this thread on SimpleTech Pc4000 (that does 310+ FSB) is good ....... http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=292657

Azza

What about coolers for RAM would they help overclocking....not talking about water cooling?....

anyone got a link to clock gen thats not linked cpuid site seems to be down.

Woden

Originally posted by Azza
What about coolers for RAM would they help overclocking....not talking about water cooling?....

you mean like those heat spreaders you get on the more fancy ram? don't think they do much tbh but they look good.

perhaps you could get some ramsinks like you get for graphics cards but it would be easier to just give yourself more head room when buying ram if you wanna push up the fsb, or to just push more vdimm through it so something.

data

neokenzo

I had problems getting my rug stable at 220*10 with the memory timings at 2-2-2-7 no matter what settings I changed. So I tried my luck with 2-2-2-6 and now its stable. Weird. Ran prime95 for 8 hours without errors. I've now upped the fsb to 225*10 with 2-2-2-6 and ran for 2 hours without errors. Will probably run more later tonight. I've pushed it to 2-2-2-5 and prime95 for an hour and didnt get any errors too but whenever I tried playing any games, the games keep crashing.
Those PC3500 EB sure looks great but it comes with a price of €345 Tempting

[Edit]Just a though, how big is the difference of say 100-200 would it be on Sisoft Sandra's memory bandwith marks?[/edit]

Col_Loki

I've now upped the fsb to 225*10 with 2-2-2-6 and ran for 2 hours without errors

Well normally the ram will give you errors within the first few mins . Thats lookin fantastic i must say .

Sure keep on that track and see if she will hit 230mhz? Very funny about the timings BTW!!

neokenzo

Originally posted by COL_LOKI
Well normally the ram will give you errors within the first few mins . Thats lookin fantastic i must say .

Sure keep on that track and see if she will hit 230mhz? Very funny about the timings BTW!!

I tried 230Mhz and ran prime95 for a minute before I got BSOD saying MEMORY_MANAGEMENT error crap. Rebooted and got BSOD immediately again. I guess thats the limit of my ram huh? At 230Mhz? I tried 228Mhz and didnt get any BSOD but errors on prime95. I guess I'll just have to be content with 225Mhz for now which isnt too bad at all.
I find the timing situation very wierd. Before I couldnt get anything above 220Mhz stable with 2-2-2-7 or even 2-3-3-7. Now with tighter timings its stable. Other this is from what I've read, the K8V doesnt like tight timings at all. Maybe they fixed it on the bios.

Col_Loki

Sounds alot like the problems data was having with his Ram............. very funny, but i think its the Winbond chips that are generally picky about timings (BH) that are loose.

With your newer board you might be able to raise the voltage a little more and get higher, so far so good. Given the huge FSB capability of the AMD64 you should be either going for very high speed Ram or medium speed with tight timings. Some of the newer Adata Ram is hitting crazy speeds, with a newer version on its way. And you can nearly buy 2 sets of 1gb for the price OCZ / Corsair charge. 300mhz ........ now that would be a sweet deal. Even if you sold that Ram it would prob pay for 1.5gb of Adata lol.

Either or the system is going to perform v.well

Woden

i've not idea if this is applicable in this case and loki you have probably seen it yourself where people with socket A motherboard put there ram at X-X-X-11. for some reason that 11 is good. while instinctively we go for lower timings try the 11 anyway

anyone know whats up with that?

Col_Loki

Yea there have been a few tests that ive seen which have indicated that 11 was the most stable number. It seems to have very little effect on performance .

I have no idea why that is TBH but it seems to do the trick in some cases!!

Azza

Can anyone here send me clock gen via icq or e-mail. I can't access the cpuid site to download it?

neokenzo

Quite suprising when I read this. Comparison between PC4200 and PC3200.

[Edit]I think the Clockgen site is up again[/Edit]

Azza

I'm still unsure what to go for even though it clearly indicates the tighter timing is better than higher bandwidth. Is pc 3200 going to be good enough for overclocking with a mach II. Its hard to tell weather those tests refer to the average air cooled overclock. Suppose also depends on the voltage I can muster into them from the motherboard I get.

neokenzo

I think it all depends hoe much your ram can go up to at the end of the day. I've asked one of the OCZ rep whether I should get one of the PC3500 or PC3700 EB's when I change my mobo later so that I can overclock better, he seems to think that I should just keep my current ram and just up hte voltage. But at least its good to know that the ram can go up to 266fsb no problems.

Col_Loki

I suppose its a question of how much braggin rights the mad high FSB will get you. Performance wise its very hard to beat such tight timings @225mhz FSB . The AMD64 setups can have the FSB and memory out of sync without any problem so this wont limit your overclock or it wont reduce your performance.

If you are getting memory then you should be lookin for near 300mhz FSB , you just wont find memory that will do very high FSB at tight timings unless you give it serious voltage (and/or its Winbond chips). Huge bandwidth looks good .......

Azza

could someone send me clock gen via e-mail.

Azza

OH MAN i'M SUCH AN IDIOT.....e-mail is azzamain@hotmail.com

neokenzo

http://www.cpuid.org/clockgen.php

I opened the site and tried downloading without any problems. You sure you got the right site?