Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed

jank

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml

well tbh its just confirms what alot of people thought was going on

the video is very telling
cant imagine what is going on in camp x-ray

all in the name of freedom i suppose:rolleyes:

Memnoch

If America had been committing war crimes they would have been convicted of it by now, therefore this incident didn't happen...
no sir
that video is a fake

Frank Grimes

"But Saddam did worse" is, no doubt, going to be used an excuse.
But for all those who claimed in previous threads that the US Military never commited war crimes (despite being shown other evidence to the contrary) can you please explain this one?
What these people did is in breach of the Geneva convention is it not?
I'm pretty sure there will be no talk of bringing charges of war crimes against these soldiers, but at the very least, there should be criminal action taken against them.
I just wonder how many new recruits the insurgants (sorry, "terrorists") will have from today as a result of this particular brand of American liberation.

There are some interesting comments on this page too:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/29/60II/main614799.shtml

Superman

Well can't say i'm shock y whati hear about US soldiers, To get an idea of how they train just check out the "school of america's" (think that how its spelt) It was training for all the South American police, i think its all too suspect how "information Extraction" was compulsory and "human rights" module was only there for extra credits!

Hobbes

Originally posted by Memnoch
If America had been committing war crimes they would have been convicted of it by now, therefore this incident didn't happen...
no sir
that video is a fake

How could they be convicted if they didn't sign up to the ICC?

I would say exporting their "illegal combatants" to countries that allows torture is a crime.

Pictures are here...
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

F'ing sickening (maybe not work safe).

Frank Grimes

This is really interesting,

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/mar2003/pows-m29.shtml

Wonder does it apply when it's the Americans doing the photographing.

President Bush declared: “We expect them to be treated humanely, just like we’ll treat any prisoners of theirs that we capture humanely.... If not, the people who mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals.”

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld added: “The Geneva Convention indicates that it’s not permitted to photograph and embarrass or humiliate prisoners of war.” British Prime Minister Tony Blair issued similar comments.

SCULLY

All Bush has to do is declare that they aren't prisoners of war but unlawfull combatants, and therefore the Geneva Convention does not apply - it worked in Cuba!

I saw the report on Sky this morning and they showed a clip of a telephone interview with an american soldier in Iraq. He was saying that it is not their fault as the army had not trained them in the rules of the Geneva Convetion. An 'expert' in studio questioned this and added that he would have thought that basic humanity and morals would prevent the soldiers involved from treating the prisoners like this - a good point I thought.

The link to the video in previous in thread starter doesn't seem to work - anyone else have this problem??

Spacedog

I'm not one to say I told you so...

Perhaps it's time someone started a poll (I don't know how to do it)

Who's the world's biggest tyrant:

Bin Laden
Sadam
GW Bush
Blair

...When Bush comes in June they should bring to see the spire in dublin, a good tribute to such a huge prick!

...told you so!

Draupnir

Thats obviously faked ya mad thing, how bad is the editin

talla

Whats America's solution to this breach of the Geneva Convention?? Sack the brigadier general in charge and send out the commander of "Camp X" in Cuba, to run the prison - he's an expert at enforcing the geneva convention!!:rolleyes:

halkar

So much for freedom. There are more people dead and prisoned in Iraq in the last year than in a year under Saddams regime. Bush and co thought they were going to be welcomed with flowers and bands playing for them and now everything gone belly up. How could they ever thought of going to free a country that people of them hates US so much?
We had comical Ali but Bush has really far better than him when it comes to media appearance.:D

Nuttzz

The military mindset

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but,
boys, it is all hell."

"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the
sooner it will be over."
-General William T. Sherman


"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
- General George Patton Jr

"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
- Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

Of course the war is over isnt it.....?

bonkey

Originally posted by Nuttzz
Of course the war is over isnt it.....?

Nope. They only declared an end to the major combat operation, not the war.

It makes it easier to keep hold of the POWs for a start.


jc

Lemming

Very interesting viewer commentary. Many of the most vociferous people against the acts committed (and the most vocal in their calls for the public to be educated on the matter) have military backgrounds.

Then you get the 'slack-jawed yokel' brigade with their "how dare you show this. This country doesn't need to hear this" mantra.

Personally I think this needed to be aired. As one father of a son in Iraq said in the article itself "We're going to be paid back for this. These people are going to be let out. Their families are gonna know. Their friends are gonna know".

It's all about damage limitation now ......

Hobbes

Originally posted by Draupnir
Thats obviously faked ya mad thing, how bad is the editin

Wow faked? You think so? So why are the military courtmarshelling the people? I think you should call them straight away and tell them.

Btw, the screen shots are from a TV program that aired in the US.

dahamsta

This is from the Guardian. Un-fúcking-believable....

[...]

One of the soldiers, Staff Sgt Chip Frederick is accused of posing in a photograph sitting on top of a detainee, committing an indecent act and with assault for striking detainees - and ordering detainees to strike each other.

He told CBS: "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things ... like rules and regulations."

His lawyer, Gary Myers, told the Guardian that Sgt Frederick had not had the opportunity to read the Geneva Conventions before being put on guard duty, a task he was not trained to perform.

Mr Myers said the role of the private contractors in Abu Ghraib are central to the case.

[...]

Nuttzz

Along the same lines........

Ryvita

Just looking at the photgraphs on Sky News. They are really disturbing. I think there's going to be a huge backlash about it. Fairplay to CBS for showing it.

Superman

the photos are on the herald as well,

I wouldn't hold my breath too soo n about CBS, They are generally just over-paranoid american garbage

Hobbes

Originally posted by dahamsta
His lawyer, Gary Myers, told the Guardian that Sgt Frederick had not had the opportunity to read the Geneva Conventions before being put on guard duty, a task he was not trained to perform.

Wow I am glad they cleared that up, clearly getting the prisoners to not sodomize each other is listed in the geneva convention?

jank

well that kinda of brings it back 60 years when SS troops always said "we were just following orders, we didnt know better"

ok not in the same extreme but still the same excuse

think most of the right wing meida are trying to brush this under the carpet!
nothing on foxnews.com yet, then again they never show anything negative about amercians

Memnoch

Originally posted by Hobbes
How could they be convicted if they didn't sign up to the ICC?

I would say exporting their "illegal combatants" to countries that allows torture is a crime.

Pictures are here...
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

F'ing sickening (maybe not work safe).

thats a typical american arguement, we didn't sign up to the law so it doesn't apply to us.. off course they aren't going to sign up, who ever heard of a criminal signing up to be tried for his crimes?

international law applies to everyone, offcourse it will never be PRACTICALLY applied to the US because of their military and political clout... nevertheless they are criminals in this case at least.

I agree with your second point... the US exporting prisoners for torture is another of Dubya's war crimes.

Pigman II

No coincidence that u.s.m.c. is an anagram of scum.

Memnoch

according to a BBC report I just saw these types of abuses have also been reported at another "detention fascility" near baghdad airport.

The truth is that the US has never really had any respect for international law despite their claims, i'm sure such abuses are much wider than ppl think and are occurring throughout iraq. The truth is that we have heard many many reports from Iraqis about this kind of thing already, but they have all been dismissed because they come from iraqis.

Its only now that a western media outlet has been able to get some proof and publish it that they are taking "action" over these war crimes.

According to the Fredricks guy his superiors didn't object to all this when the situation was brought up, which is in line with what i've believed all along.

had this dramatic proof not have emerged the US military would have continued to deny such incidents while abusing their power and commiting war crimes.

And i'm sure they are doing so else where in iraq as we speak.

jank

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118627,00.html

Just on foxnews but their headline is

Arab TV Shows Iraq Prisoner Photos

So how long did they have to think up of that!?
Yea blame them and dont even show the pictures on the website at all

Im seriously thinking that rupert murdoch is the anti-christ
I say burn him at the stake!:p

pork99

I think we are in "it's only wrong if the Americans do it" territory here. The Iraqi "resistance" can drag people from their cars and burn them to death or massacre chidren in schoolbuses and the same peple who are condemning the Americans here will say "Oh well they are resistance can do anything they are defending their country against occupation"

I am not defending those disgusting criminal US prison guard individuals for a minute but compared to what Saddams regime did to people it's almost playacting. And I think all those prisoners, though humiliated, survived.

But that is the difference between the average Arab totalitarian regime and the West. In Saddam's Iraq torturing children to death in front of their parents got you promoted. In a Western army much less violent abuse of prisoners gets you sacked and court martialed. And quite properly.

What also bothers me is the stupidity of those US personel. If you are going to commit a crime is it a good idea to be photographed in the act and apparently enjoying it? Certainly rules out the "the others forced me to" defence. It reminds me of some llittle sh|ts in the States a few years ago who drove around shooting paintball guns at cyclists and pedestrians. Not only did they carry out these fairly violent assaults but they videoed themselves doing it! (Certainly made the cop's job much easier when they were arrested.)

But those were just delinquents. The US personel in Iraq should know better. Not only have they commited abuses which in themselves were bad enough but they have handed a beautiful propaganda weapon to our enemies which is tantamount to sabotaging your own side. So in my view they deserve triple punishment; for the abuse of prisoners, secondly for culpable stupidity and thirdly for sabotaging their mission.

In the Irish and British armies you must have achieved or be capable of achieving at least the rank of corporal to get into the Military Police. Therefore the standard of MP personnel is above the average in the army. Obviously not the case in the US army.

halkar

Yes Pork99, US went there to bring democracy and freedom to the nation which was tortured and abused for decades and this is only what we see but what about what we don't see or hear? Those people that burned bodies of contractors probably knew most of what we see and hear for months and maybe they are relations of those in the prisons. We all know what Saddam was but do we really know what US administration is like? And for me US are the invaders and Iraqis are the freedom fighters it doesn't matter what extremes they get. Isn't it clear yet to the world that Iraqis does not want US in their country? With all that going on in the country US is no better than Saddam was.
Makes me wonder how is US dealing with Saddam these days

shotamoose

Originally posted by jank
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118627,00.html

Just on foxnews but their headline is

So how long did they have to think up of that!?
Yea blame them and dont even show the pictures on the website at all

Im seriously thinking that rupert murdoch is the anti-christ
I say burn him at the stake!:p

Quote from that story:

Arabs consider public nudity as dishonorable.

Yeah, anywhere else this would be fine, but in the Arab world it's a bit of a faux pas on the part of the Americans. Those cultural differences can really trip you up.

ferdi

Originally posted by pork99
I think we are in "it's only wrong if the Americans do it" territory here. The Iraqi "resistance" can drag people from their cars and burn them to death or massacre chidren in schoolbuses and the same peple who are condemning the Americans here will say

yes but the iraqi resistance are trying to free their land from a hostile foreign occupying power.

the american troops are their to enlighten and bring democracy.

these pictures at http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/ are ****ing appauling, i hope those sick **** get whats coming to them.


i'm sorry but that is ****ed up

vorbis

both those statements are spin to me ferdi. also if any of ye actually bother reading that fox news article, you'll find its surprisingly reasonable. Granted it doesn't have the rabid anti-Americanism that one gets on Al-Jazera but it still seems to say the relevant facts. There's also photos available now. What exactly is wrong about the article??

Among the images shown by the news channels were a hooded prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his hands. CBS reported that the prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted, although in reality the wires were not connected to a power supply.

Both stations also showed a photograph of a female U.S. soldier standing by a hooded naked prisoner. The soldier is pointing at his genitals, which are blurred out, and grinning at the camera.

The stations also broadcast a picture of several naked men intertwined as if they were engaging in a sex act.

CBS said the images were taken late last year at Abu Ghraib prison (search) near Baghdad, where American soldiers were holding hundreds of prisoners captured during the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

In March, the Army announced that six members of the 800th Military Police Brigade (search) faced court-martial for allegedly abusing about 20 prisoners at Abu Ghraib. The charges included dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another person.

In addition to those criminal charges, the military has recommended disciplinary action against seven U.S. officers who helped run the prison, including Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, the commander of the 800th Brigade.

Also for the America blocks other news sources, you can get from Fox news to Al-Jazeera with 3 mouse clicks. Yeah REAL control of information.

Regarding the incident itself, its wrong and disgusting. The people involved should be court martialled and serve prison sentences. Thats all though. I don't view it as indicative of the US army.

pork99

Originally posted by ferdi

these pictures at http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/ are ****ing appauling, i hope those sick **** get whats coming to them.

If even President Bush is calling it disgusting I think they will deservedly get the book thrown at them

Ajnag

This is the same president who arthorises the sending of detainees to third party countrys for torture.Yeah?

I see these soldiers getting a soft sentence and a big ****in book/movie deal.


Only in america....

vorbis

Ajnag what do you want to see happen them? :rolleyes:

They're being court martialled and should end up in prison. What else is supposed to happen??

Sand

These soldiers are scum and deserve to have the book thrown at them. Maybe they didnt get a copy of the GC, and they might have gotten proper training for their role but they should have the common cop on not to torture their prisoners. FFS, one of the guys charged is a reservist, a prison officer back in the US - how does he treat his prisoners over there?

Its good to see the Coalition authorities are moving to investigate and court martial those involved. Those pictures will only increase attacks on coalition forces and western civillians in Iraq - in a very real way the actions these morons took are working against the interests of the coalition, and placing the lives of their soldiers under increased risk.

ferdi

Originally posted by vorbis
Ajnag what do you want to see happen them? :rolleyes:

They're being court martialled and should end up in prison. What else is supposed to happen??

prison in iraq ammoungst iraqi prisoners would be fine by me.

ferdi

Originally posted by Sand
Its good to see the Coalition authorities are moving to investigate and court martial those involved. Those pictures will only increase attacks on coalition forces and western civillians in Iraq

not to mention the rest of the west

when bin laden and his boys saw these pictures they must have partied hearty - this is the best ammo he could get to justify whatever he wants.

vorbis

maniacs like him don't really need reasons ferdi. After all the fall of istanbul in 1453 still troubles him greatly. Any why would being in prison with iraqi prisoners be good? Do you want to see the troops involved killed? I mean that seriously.

ferdi

i dont want to see anyone killed.

Hobbes

The one thing that gets me with the fox news is they mention the pictures were from last year. The military only found out about it recently.. so wtf has happened during that time.

Memnoch

Originally posted by vorbis
both those statements are spin to me ferdi. also if any of ye actually bother reading that fox news article, you'll find its surprisingly reasonable. Granted it doesn't have the rabid anti-Americanism that one gets on Al-Jazera but it still seems to say the relevant facts. There's also photos available now. What exactly is wrong about the article??

yes Fox news which jumps at the chance to call anyone a terrorist passes no judgement or comment on the war crimes committed here... fair and balanced indeed.

Regarding the incident itself, its wrong and disgusting. The people involved should be court martialled and serve prison sentences. Thats all though. I don't view it as indicative of the US army.

they have committed war crimes. Can you give me a SINGLE GOOD reason why they shouldn't be tried by the international criminal court whose purpose is to try war criminals.

It is entirely indicative of the US army as these men have stated clearly that they were never briefed that this kind of behaviour was unacceptable... this goes to show how the US army is encouraging this kind of behaviour. The ONLY reason they are acting is because they've been caught and the issue is in the public eye.

Iraqi's have reported such abuse of power not only towards pow's but also towards civillians for some time now, but these have been ignored because there was never any such conclusive proof as these photos. You can be as blind as you want, I only hope you will be able to look past the propaganda some day.

Exit

Actually, isn't the article at Fox an Associated Press article (it says it at the top of the page). I've seen it 95% word for word on other news sites.

halkar

And now the British .
So called battle for terrorism continues, or is it turning out to be provoking terrorism?
These US soldiers excuse of "we didn't know, we weren't thought bla bla" is bullsh!t. So where they thought of torturing? They look experienced though.
Looks like we will be seeing many of these sort of info in the media with these money grabbing American and British soldiers selling their stories.

pro_gnostic_8

I wish people would stop using this incident as a big stick to bash America with.

The behaviour of some U.S. personnel in this instance is absolutely repugnant but has been condemned without prejudice by the entire military chain of command from George Bush down. There will be courtmarshalls, and punishment is promised for the individuals involved. This is a far cry from the situation that existed in the Saddam era when such behaviour (and worse) was endemic and an everyday aspect of the system.

In any sample of people you will have a few that are "not nice" individuals; this is the case here. The torture was not systematic or part of the operational planning. It was the baser instinct of a few individuals and done without official consent or knowledge. Saying "Boo, this is awful" is a fair enough response, but to draw a wider and conspiratorial conclusion is a mistake.

halkar

Oh, so pro_gnostic_8, Saddam was doing it and Americans are repeating it. What has change then? Saddam was dictator and ruled the country as pleased but US are there to bring democracy and freedom but it is obvious they are no better than Saddam with amount of people killed in the year and their dictatorship in the country. They are even changing their flag ffs .
I think it is time for the Democratic Americans to see what their family members in Iraq are upto and realise that this is not just for freedom of Iraqi people.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Memnoch

Originally posted by daveirl
The fact they can't be tried by the ICC might be a good one. Well AFAIK.

Is it possible for the ICC to try non signatories citizens in abstentia?

so your saying that a criminal can escape being tried for his crimes because he refused to sign up to the law?

Memnoch

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
The torture was not systematic or part of the operational planning. It was the baser instinct of a few individuals and done without official consent or knowledge. Saying "Boo, this is awful" is a fair enough response, but to draw a wider and conspiratorial conclusion is a mistake.

an isolated incedent you say? Amnesty international would seem to disagree...

---

"Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident. It is not enough for the USA to react only once images have hit the television screens".

---

so EITHER Amensty International are LYING, or this is NOT an isolated incident.

---

Amnesty International has received frequent reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces during the past year.

---

note the words FREQUENT REPORTS

---

detainees have reported being routinely subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during arrest and the first 24 hours of detention.

---

note the word ROUTINELY

---

Many detainees have alleged they were tortured and ill-treated by US and UK troops during interrogation. Methods often reported include prolonged sleep deprivation; beatings; prolonged restraint in painful positions, sometimes combined with exposure to loud music; prolonged hooding; and exposure to bright lights. Virtually none of the allegations of torture or ill-treatment has been adequately investigated.

---

so they complain that they have been ill-treated or tortured, and the coalition refuses to investigate...


quote:

---

In February 2004, during a hearing into the death in June 2003 of Najem Sa'doun Hattab at Camp Whitehorse detention centre near Nassiriya, a former US marine testified that it was common practice to kick and punch prisoners who did not cooperate - and even some who did. The marine had been granted immunity from prosecution for his testimony.

---

quote:

---

Such reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces have been frequent in the past year.

---

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

bonkey

Originally posted by Memnoch
Can you give me a SINGLE GOOD reason why they shouldn't be tried by the international criminal court whose purpose is to try war criminals.

The fact that even teh ICC's purpose is only to try those where they have not been justly tried for their alleged crimes under a relevant national jurisdiction.

Even were the US in the ICC, these soldiers would only be eligible to be tried under its auspices were the US to refuse to try them, or to choose to decline to try them in favour of the ICC. However, should it wish to deal with its own, then it would still have the right to do so.

What worries me is not so much that this happened, but how it was possible. I find it difficult to believe that people so seemingly careless about covering their tracks (what with the photos, assuming they are real) managed to do all of this with no-one else knowing about it. Even more unsettling are the allegations concerning the lack of specific GC-related education for the troops - especially those being assigned to a detention facility.

None of this excuses their actions, but similarly, the probe should not stop at finding those directly involved, but also in determining how and where the system failed in every respect in allowing this to come to happen, and - most importantly - what can be done to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Yes, its an isolated incident (to date), and hopefully remains so. It does not tarnish the entire US army, nor indicate any sort of intent at any senior level for this to happen, but it is still simply not going to be enough to try and dismiss this in any way as being entirely related only to those directly involved.

It is entirely indicative of the US army as these men have stated clearly that they were never briefed that this kind of behaviour was unacceptable... this goes to show how the US army is encouraging this kind of behaviour.

Or that it is simply culpable of a grevious oversight. I mean, shouldn't we at least wait to find out if this failing was an isolated incident, or systemic policy before even attempting to draw conclusions about its intent?

jc

halkar

Some of those abusers are private contracting security and US army can't do much about them. So they say. So what happens to these private abusers?
Makes me sick that seeing these private contractors making 3000-4000$ a day where as the Iraqi security forces that is trained and put in frontlines risking their lives without any protection are only making around $50 a month. And US security companies making fortunes out of this Iraqi deal by sending sickos to Iraq.

CivilServant

One of the soldiers, Staff Sgt Chip Frederick is accused of posing in a photograph sitting on top of a detainee, committing an indecent act and with assault for striking detainees - and ordering detainees to strike each other.

He told CBS: "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things ... like rules and regulations."

His lawyer, Gary Myers, told the Guardian that Sgt Frederick had not had the opportunity to read the Geneva Conventions before being put on guard duty, a task he was not trained to perform.

Mr Myers said the role of the private contractors in Abu Ghraib are central to the case.

How can these american fúckers get away with this? Oh man, those buggers should all burn in hell. Iraqi liberation, GW Bush, the reason they're there in the first place, the natural resources of a devasted country. I'm sick to death of these damn amercians.

I think we are in "it's only wrong if the Americans do it" territory here. The Iraqi "resistance" can drag people from their cars and burn them to death or massacre chidren in schoolbuses and the same peple who are condemning the Americans here will say "Oh well they are resistance can do anything they are defending their country against occupation"

So pork99, you're trying to soften what the americans did? They should pay for their actions like everyone else in the civilised world.

Arabs consider public nudity as dishonorable.

Dumbass americans trying to put a spin on everything. It's all a game to them.

I wish people would stop using this incident as a big stick to bash America with.

I'll bash american when I want to, it's a free country. America is big enough to look after itself...