You can't use your park! Europhobes!

dathi1

Apparently I can't use my usual 10K running route in the Phoenix park on Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday. Also if you wish to bring the family to the Zoo on a bank holiday weekend...tough... our European masters have exclusive access to our park this weekend too. So 1000s of runners, walkers, GAA, Football, Picnickers and countless Zoo visitors will be told to take a hike by armed Security forces at sealed off check points to one of the world's largest walled "public" parks. A blip compared to the way the Brussels elite will rule your life from here on in.

cruiserweight

Is one of the days over the weekend not the European Day of Welcomes?:D

Sleipnir

Better than having a riot.
Are they shutting down the whole park or just fencing off and guarding Farmleigh?

dathi1

Are they shutting down the whole park or just fencing off and guarding Farmleigh?

My running club has just told me its the whole park. I ran there yesterday...looks like they have 3 containment zones around Farleigh, perimeter fencing at blanchardstown gate end, The US ambassadors residence has 8 ft steel wired galvanized fencing with break barriers?????? and garda horse patrols everywhere. Its like running around guantanamo.

therecklessone

As opposed to leaving it wide open and having a troop load of soap-dodgers in white boiler suits wrecking the place?

I'm not keen on the measures being employed, but previous EU summits have attracted serious trouble. Like the Boy Scouts taught me, "be prepared".

Villain

Originally posted by therecklessone
As opposed to leaving it wide open and having a troop load of soap-dodgers in white boiler suits wrecking the place?

If your referring to the wombles, the numbers expected are 50 to 100.

So hardly a troop load now.

therecklessone

Originally posted by irish1
If your referring to the wombles, the numbers expected are 50 to 100.

So hardly a troop load now.

I don't know, would be a troop load if they were scouts...or monkeys...

Villain

Originally posted by therecklessone
I don't know, would be a troop load if they were scouts...or monkeys...

LOL, very good.

I think their over reacting to be fair, the more police and soldiers the more people to start a fight IMHO .;)

dathi1

I'm not keen on the measures being employed, but previous EU summits have attracted serious trouble. Like the Boy Scouts taught me, "be prepared".

So its ok to disenfranchise Dubliners from using their own park for a euro summit? what I'm really getting at here is the whole elitist attitude of our government when it comes to our euro power masters. Its our party piss off!
Why not have it in the bog of allen?

Imposter

Just because you don't recognise bog snorkeling as a sport doesn't mean others should feel the same way.:)

spudulike

the simple fact of the matter is that nobody knows what has been planned by various groups for the weekend and personally i think that our international reputation as a friendly safe country is at risk and I would rather that that garda ensure that the small number of people intent of trouble aren't given the oppertunity. So i say this time the garda are acting instead of reacting and i'm right behind them for it...

sceptre

Originally posted by irish1
If your referring to the wombles, the numbers expected are 50 to 100.

So hardly a troop load now.

Are Wellington and Tomsk coming?

Sleipnir

Originally posted by dathi1
So its ok to disenfranchise Dubliners from using their own park for a euro summit? what I'm really getting at here is the whole elitist attitude of our government when it comes to our euro power masters. Its our party piss off!
Why not have it in the bog of allen?

It could easily be argued that it's not the attendees of the summit who are the reason for the parks closure but the people who are intent on disrupting said summit.

Villain

Originally posted by sceptre
Are Wellington and Tomsk coming?

Not to my knowledge.

therecklessone

Frankly I'd prefer the couple of days inconveniance than a free for all with the resulting chaos we'd have. Lets have no security precautions and blame the government/gardai/EU/Bush when it all kicks off.

"They should have seen this coming..."

Just had an interesting thought:

How would people have reacted if the morning of Sept 11th if the US authorities had grounded all flights on the basis of intelligence suggesting an attack? Would they have complained about the delays and inconveniance caused?

Sorry if thats off-topic.

mike65

Originally posted by therecklessone
"

Just had an interesting thought:

How would people have reacted if the morning of Sept 11th if the US authorities had grounded all flights on the basis of intelligence suggesting an attack? Would they have complained about the delays and inconveniance caused?

Naturally! You dont get thanks for preventing a disaster only sh1t thrown at you for NOT preventing disaster...

Mike.

Villain

Originally posted by therecklessone
Frankly I'd prefer the couple of days inconveniance than a free for all with the resulting chaos we'd have. Lets have no security precautions and blame the government/gardai/EU/Bush when it all kicks off.

"They should have seen this coming..."

Just had an interesting thought:

How would people have reacted if the morning of Sept 11th if the US authorities had grounded all flights on the basis of intelligence suggesting an attack? Would they have complained about the delays and inconveniance caused?

Sorry if thats off-topic.

Well any reports on intelligence I have read are always from unnamed sources and never give any details, I think the wombles are the only real group who have stated any threat, they said they would storm farmleigh house.

If they have real intelligence that threats excist that merit this security fair enough, but I'm a little skeptic myself.

An as I said

the more police and soldiers the more people to start a fight IMHO

cruiserweight

If they have real intelligence that threats excist that merit this security fair enough, but I'm a little skeptic myself.

In fairness any intelligence of this nature would be kept under wraps. There is no point in letting groups know that you have their plans if you are planning on stopping them. THey will just form new plans that the gardai or army are not prepared for.

Villain

Originally posted by cruiserweight
In fairness any intelligence of this nature would be kept under wraps. There is no point in letting groups know that you have their plans if you are planning on stopping them. THey will just form new plans that the gardai or army are not prepared for.

Fair point, but I don't think such threat excists. The eru are guarding Farmleigh house so if the wombles head for that they will be sorry people, if abbeylara is anything to go by.

cruiserweight

I think that unless something happens then we will never learn what intelligence or information was available.

If everything passes off peacefully then there are two possibel scenarios:
1:There was no threat and it was a slight over reaction, in which case I say at least we were prepared just case.
2:Something major was going to happen and the intelligence was correct and it was prevented. In which case it may never even be reported, because depending on the scale of the threat then there is no need to worry the general public about what could have happened.

In either case I think it is better to be prepared just in case.

Sleipnir

Abbeylara was a slightly different situation and is not really relevant to this one.

Anyway, I don't think the goverment would be calling out the entire Garda force this weekend if they didn't feel there was a credible and real threat.


From unison.ie

The Taoiseach has told the Dail that the entire Garda force will be on duty for the May Day ceremonies around the country. During heated exchanges, Bertie Ahern called on Joe Higgins of the Socialist Party to ask anarchists not to travel to Dublin. Deputy Higgins refused the request. The Taoiseach has said Garda leave for the weekend has been cancelled, "The entire force is in operation effectively next Saturday. So leave arrangements and days off and particularly on a May weekend are not in place, so the numbers are not reduced."

pork99

Patricia McKenna, the Green party MEP, last night appealed for protesters, particularly those travelling from abroad, to ensure that May Day was a peaceful celebration. She said: “I hope that those coming to Ireland, to take part in any of the events organised for that day, do so in a spirit of peace and celebration.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-1087194,00.html

Well said Patricia but I'm not the one you need to convince. I doubt if the people coming here to stir sh|t take much notice of Ms McKenna whatever she says.

Victor

Originally posted by cruiserweight
2:Something major was going to happen and the intelligence was correct and it was prevented. In which case it may never even be reported

But how would people get their promotions then

Victor

Originally posted by Sleipnir
Bertie Ahern called on Joe Higgins of the Socialist Party to ask anarchists not to travel to Dublin

This would appear to hint that Joe Higgins controls the Sekrit International Anarchist Organisation

cruiserweight

But how would people get their promotions then

I don't think that that will be reported either:D

Tuars

Just stay in your homes, watch TV and listen to what the government tell you and you'll be fine. It's for your own good.

Everything will be alright. Remember just stay in your homes. You will be safe.

And be thankful to the brave bureaucrats of Europe for standing in the frontline in the fight against democracy and freedom.

Everything will be alright. We'll look after you. Pay your taxes and stay in your homes. And could you also do us a favour and close your eyes and ears and suspend what's left of your critical faculties while you're at it.

Don't be afraid. We know there's a big bad world out there. We'll take care of you.

We'll take care of you.

monument

Originally posted by Sleipnir
Better than having a riot.

Even better don't let any one do anything. Then there will be no problems at all.

dathi1

Just got back again from an 8k ( ) 2 helicopters buzzing constantly overhead...for some reason what looks like a big white APC water cannon unit is driving up and down the main park road. Height for hire cherry pickers with CCTV at every corner. More barriers and now double fencing across the whole south area of the park. People going about their daily walks etc...seem to be gobsmaked. 200+ portaloos at the popes cross for security..I guess. Guantanamo it isn't...more like 1984.

monument

Originally posted by dathi1
Just got back again from an 8k ( ) 2 helicopters buzzing constantly overhead...for some reason what looks like a big white APC water cannon unit is driving up and down the main park road. Height for hire cherry pickers with CCTV at every corner. More barriers and now double fencing across the whole south area of the park. People going about their daily walks etc...seem to be gobsmaked. 200+ portaloos at the popes cross for security..I guess. Guantanamo it isn't...more like 1984.

Is there any chance you might have a digital camera? Going out with it might not be a good idea... god help you if someone was ever to overreact.

therecklessone

If you're mad enough, try taking notes the next time you're out for a run. Might add some spice to your 8k...;)

arcadegame2004

Daithi, you forget that "Europe" includes us. New EU laws proposed by the EU Commission are subject to approval or rejection by the Council of Ministers and usually too by the elected European Parliament. Either you're happy with the existing EU system or you should propose a way of improving it. Which requires a treaty-change. Which requires unanimity. I'm making this point to counter what I feel is a Eurosceptic-streak to your points.

On the specific substance of the security issue, I prefer to be safe than sorry. If the Gardai made no effort to provide security for the EU Ministers then they and the Government would be the targets of public consternation if Dublin is subjected to what Seattle and Copehagen were subjected to in terms of the violent anarchy that those latter cities witnessed. I think this issue has echoes of the smoking-ban, in the sense that the general good is better served in this case by providing security for private-property and for EU leaders. The anarchists must not be left to their own devices because otherwise, much economic damage could be caused to Irish business and Irish jobs, as well as our international reputation.

monument

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The anarchists must not be left to their own devices because otherwise, much economic damage could be caused to Irish business and Irish jobs, as well as our international reputation.

Honestly, what tabloid did you copy that line from?

Nuttzz

http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=54616

Major traffic restrictions are being put around the Park, with the park itself off limits to the public from 5 o'clock on Friday until early on Sunday

A day and a bit, hardly the end of the world.

dangerman

oh get over it and stop moaning.

3 days disalowed access to phoenix park. so what.

next st. patricks day im going to start a thread here moaning about not being able to drive my car in dublin.

The heads of state of what is it, 25 nations are in town. This is more important than your running. Go run somewhere else and be thankful of the free progressive society we live in.

Next time there's a concert in phoenix park blocking ur running-route, i want to see you there with a banner saying 'down with this sort of thing.'

I'm so tired of this anti-anything-the-government-do. This is a happy day, 10 nations are getting the same chance to get the benefits we got all those years ago. You can't take and take, you've got to give back.

monument

Originally posted by dangerman
3 days disalowed access to phoenix park. so what.

next st. patricks day im going to start a thread here moaning about not being able to drive my car in dublin.

read on..

Originally posted by dangerman
The heads of state of what is it, 25 nations are in town. This is more important than your running. Go run somewhere else and be thankful of the free progressive society we live in.

A “free progressive society” and stopping a large amount of people from using a park for a few is a contradiction in terms.

[Added: Oh, don’t go down the “but they are voted by the people” road. They are, but they are not more important then the people. But they do love to waist money.]

Originally posted by dangerman
Next time there's a concert in phoenix park blocking ur running-route, i want to see you there with a banner saying 'down with this sort of thing.'

Do they close all of Phoenix Park for a concert?

Anyway, who pays for the concert?

How many people go to a concert v how many people attending the dinner at the park?

Originally posted by dangerman
I'm so tired of this anti-anything-the-government-do. This is a happy day, 10 nations are getting the same chance to get the benefits we got all those years ago. You can't take and take, you've got to give back.

If it’s a happy day, and if the EU is about its people, why are its people being restricted use of what is primarily a public park?

When will we get our fish back?

chewy

no matter what anti-capitlist protestors are planning the phoenix park would have been closed... it is 30 heads of eu states...

its the theat of terrorist attacks (whether you believe the likelyhood or not) which is closing off the park not any type of protestors....

whatever you think of the protestors i think you'll find it hard to argue that...


ps the army were on call on feb 15th were you there that day you were a possible threat to the state then


tbh honest the wombles storming farmleigh wasn't particularily serious you do know that the padding will make em waddling they could hardly storm anything

dangerman

A “free progressive society” and stopping a large amount of people from using a park for a few is a contradiction in terms.

since when is it a contradiction in terms?

they're closing a section of public land for a few days to facilitate an inter-governmental 'thing'.

I don't understand your argument.

Free progressive society = NO CLOSING A PARK EVER GOD DAMMIT ITS BIG BROTHER HOLY CRAP!!!????

Do you feel part of a police state cause phoenix park is closing? *really* ??? *honestly* ??? I feel sorry for you if you do. We have wonderful freedom under lots of tenants, and this minor inconvenience on quite a historical weekend is *not* by any measure a huge punch in the face for civil liberties of any kind.

It's not a take-to-the-streets thing. (unlike globalisation, fortress europe, etc. which a lot would argue *is* a take-to-the-streets thing, and are doing so, but thats another topic for another day) It's just a park, closed for a few days, to facilitate a celebration by the elected heads of governments. The sad thing is the whole atmosphere of terror all over the world (and i'm not going near the who-started-that issue) has caused such a dramatic security presence. There would have been security without al-queda and 9/11 etc. etc., but the whole international scene has shifted to ultra-security. I see it as: Why take any chances?

There are real civil liberties issues that people should and do question the government over. I just can't see this as being one of the key points to stand up and be counted on. I say let them have the park for 3 days, its the 25 leaders of 25 countries ffs.

[Added: Oh, don’t go down the “but they are voted by the people” road. They are, but they are not more important then the people. But they do love to waist money.]

I've no idea how much money is involved, but i do agree it's probably excessive - but thats historically been the case, pomp and ceremony is a big part of this sort of shindig.

Nuttzz

St Annes Park in Raheny is open and available for all your park needs over the weekend :rolleyes:

Morpheus

cost of security operation = €4,000,000

Spacedog

Originally posted by Nuttzz
St Annes Park in Raheny is open and available for all your park needs over the weekend :rolleyes:

Good, can't they have their summit there? better still in their 60's batman villan style slanty lair, where they can grow fat on chicken dinners, chuck their tongues, stroke their beards and laugh like the two girls from the philidelphia ad on speed!

dathi1

they're closing a section of public land for a few days to facilitate an inter-governmental 'thing'.

No you're totally wrong. They are completely closing one of the biggest walled public parks in the world. Not a section...THE WHOLE PARK, Disenfranchising 1000's of Dubliners who use the park without fail every weekend. This is a holiday weekend.

Free progressive society = NO CLOSING A PARK EVER GOD DAMMIT ITS BIG BROTHER HOLY CRAP!!!????

A free society means not having a eurocrat party shutting down one of the most important leisure time areas for the whole City. The park itself covers a massive area in Dublin. This is unprecedented

this minor inconvenience on quite a historical weekend is *not* by any measure a huge punch in the face for civil liberties of any kind.

so much for Prodi's inclusiveness.

I just can't see this as being one of the key points to stand up and be counted on.

yer right....its just a minor example of the typical pandering by our "anything u say Cox" government.
The public??? F the public we're the elite!! shut their park!!!!

Villain

I really can't understand why they need to close the whole park, especially as dathi1 has stated on a Bank Holiday weekend.

Doesn't make sense at all.

Moriarty

Here's a teacup for that little storm you have there, dathi1.

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
They are completely closing one of the biggest walled public parks in the world.

So they are closing a park. A park, which is a section of public land.

So they are closing a section of public land, for a few days.

Regardless fo the size of land, I fail to see how you can say that he is "totally wrong" to equate a publically-owned park with "a section of public land". Are you saying it isn't a seciton of public land? Its the entirety of public land? The majority of public land? Its not public land at all????

When you say "totally wrong", you seem to mean more "you're not describing this emotively enough for my liking", than "what you are saying is factually incorrect".

A free society means not having a eurocrat party shutting down one of the most important leisure time areas for the whole City.

Do you think it is a coincidence that this is being done on the same weekend that the largest security operation in the history of the state is being run in order to try and prevent any of the expected problems from May Day protests which just happen to co-incide with these Eurocrats coming in?

You clearly must, because apparently its the security arrangements you are objecting to, rather than those who generated the requirement for the security arrangements. Bear in mind that never before has the government had to implement such a strict security measure.....so its not the meeting itself which is the prime cause. Nope - its the nature of the threat.

The park itself covers a massive area in Dublin. This is unprecedented

Yes....so maybe you should give some thought to why it was done. Why did the government decide to p1ss off those thousands of people? Why did they instigate security the likes of which they have never had a call for previously.

The public??? F the public we're the elite!! shut their park!!!!

Well, if thats the best you can come up with in terms of understanding why they've done it.......I side with moriarty....and I've a nice molehill you might be interested in.

jc

dathi1

When you say "totally wrong", you seem to mean more "you're not describing this emotively enough for my liking", than "what you are saying is factually incorrect".

Well I could dull down the words I use to make them more JC correct but thats not what I'm here for.

Regardless fo the size of land, I fail to see how you can say that he is "totally wrong" to equate a publically-owned park with "a section of public land".

You're nit picking ...They're shutting down "our" whole park period.

You clearly must, because apparently its the security arrangements you are objecting to

arent there loads of Government buildings within the Dublin metropolitan area?

Why did the government decide to p1ss off those thousands of people?

better still....why didnt they ask??????????

Well, if thats the best you can come up with in terms of understanding why they've done it.......

I dint give an explaiation as to why they done it...I'm pointing out the whole lack of informing the public, ignoring the public....and then **** the public syndrome.

now back to work to pay my taxes to pay for this shower.

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
Well I could dull down the words I use to make them more JC correct but thats not what I'm here for.

Well, I prefer the term "logical" or "accurate" rather than "JC correct", but ok.

You're nit picking .

You're right. He said something completely and totally factually correct, and you pointed out he was totally wrong. I am such a nit-picker for pointing that out.....

They're shutting down "our" whole park period.

Yes. Thats what both I and dangerman said. But he was "totally wrong" when he said it, and I'm nit-picking when I said it.

Its no wonder you keep having to repeat it when you insist that everyone who doesn't dispute this fact is somehow incorrect.

arent there loads of Government buildings within the Dublin metropolitan area?

So you'd prefer, say, a half-square-mile or so* of "our" city - surrounding the building in qustion - shut down instead? Or do you think that buildings in the city-centre are so inherently more secure than buildings in Phoenix Park that the state could have not bothered with the largest security operaiton in its history?

Or...wait...we could have done what everyone complained about when Bertie originally proposed it and not had any international summits in Ireland during the Presidency. Of course, the public were up in arms about that too....but I'm guessing you fully supported his idea???

better still....why didnt they ask??????????

Because they don't have to, nor is there any mechanism by which they could reliably do so.

I dint give an explaiation as to why they done it

Ah. So you didn't say the following a few posts ago????

So its ok to disenfranchise Dubliners from using their own park for a euro summit?

Or am I nit-picking again by actually reading what you wrote and taking it to be an expression of your position?

jc

monument

Apologies for my post as with the scaremongering which has taking place in most of the media over the past few weeks a lot of the people who normally use the park would probably have stayed away.

Tuars

I think shutting down the park is a bit of an overreaction. I was in Madrid a few months back when the 'aid for Iraq' love-in meeting was on and many major heads of state were there, also Kofi Annan and Colin Powell.

They didn't shut down the park next door. In fact I walked right past the door of the building where the meeting was taking place (there were tanks and a heavy police presence, granted) and sat in the park and had my lunch as the dignitraries wizzed by.

I think it's mad that we compromise our liberties and our public space for fear of a couple of hundred wombles. It doesn't give me any confidence that there is an intelligent strategy in place for dealing with real threats.