Keane in Friendlies

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It seems Brian Kerr won't be forcing Roy Keane to play friendlies after all. This is a positive step from Kerr (IMO), ensuring that no issues will arise in the future about Keane's committment to the national team, if Kerr doesn't name him, then Keane won't be forced to withdarw and cause a possible controversy about his commitment.

Kerr is coming out of this in a very good light, he has handled it brilliantly.


http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,1563,1197057,00.html

Villain

Kerr said: "I have a good relationship with Sir Alex Ferguson and Manchester United but the same rules apply to Roy Keane as they do to the rest of the players in the squad. But I will be flexible with those players of a certain age and consider the needs of their clubs when it comes to games, so I will treat Roy the same way that any player of his age should be treated.

lol bull****, he should be treated the same as any player, if he's not available for friendlies he shouldn't have come back.

Mossy Monk

Originally posted by irish1
he should be treated the same as any player, if he's not available for friendlies he shouldn't have come back.

well said

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By that token irish1 maybe we should look at the international careers of John O'Shea and Jason McAteer, who Kerr left out of the squad for the Czech game, due to club commitments.

But I will be flexible with those...and consider the needs of their clubs when it comes to games

He's not only talking about Keane.

Villain

Originally posted by seansouth
By that token irish1 maybe we should look at the international careers of John O'Shea and Jason McAteer, who Kerr left out of the squad for the Czech game, due to club commitments.

He's not only talking about Keane.

yes but seansouth that is not what he has said here what he has said is "But I will be flexible with those players of a certain age"

That hardly includes John O'Shea now does it.

The case you were talking about was the FA cup semi-finals which happen once a year not the same scenario really.

Emboss

if alex ferguson is treating him as 32yr old with some nagging porblems, how does it differ with kerr?

ferguson leaves him out because of his age because of the injuries he's had and to try to keep him fresh for games that actually mean something.

I couldn't care less if he doesn't play friendlies or not there's no point putting extra strain on him he is 32 he does have a dodgey hip.

why risk loosing him for mickey mouse match ?

this is kerr being realistic and profesional.

if mick was as profesional as kerr well we won't get into that.

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I think Kerr is being very forward thinking in his treatment of players for friendly matches. He has realised that club managers do not look too kindly on players playing in what are essentially meaningless matches.

We all know how these "players of a certain age" can perform, Keane, McAteer, Shay Given even, and so it seems that Kerr will be more accommadating to the players' clubs in the future.

This can only be a good thing as it means that the older, more established players will not have to take part in games where they have nothing to prove.

Keane does have a lot to prove in the upcoming Poland game, to the team and fans alike, but I believe that the likes of Shay Given whose club team is involved in European competition, and in a battle for a Champions League spot next season should not be asked to travel to Eastern Europe at this stage of the season.

redspider

I'm predicting that Roy will play, but for how long? He will either start and be subbed or else come on as a sub, most likely he will start. But Brian and Roy will judge it according to the build-up, reaction from fans, Ferguson, etc. If for example there is a 2,000 fan protest at the ground complaining about Roy, then he might be taken off earlier perhaps or even not put on. There's a lot of positioning going on with this return and Brian is playing things very carefully, and probably rightly so.

But I dont expect a protest. I think most fans will treat him like the prodigal son and give him a chance. There may be a few boos but that willprobably be it. As someone said to be earlier in the week, it is not such a big issue now and I firmly believe that Roy will have only a small impact on whether we ultimately qualify or not.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by seansouth
I think Kerr is being very forward thinking in his treatment of players for friendly matches. He has realised that club managers do not look too kindly on players playing in what are essentially meaningless matches.

We all know how these "players of a certain age" can perform, Keane, McAteer, Shay Given even, and so it seems that Kerr will be more accommadating to the players' clubs in the future.

This can only be a good thing as it means that the older, more established players will not have to take part in games where they have nothing to prove.

Keane does have a lot to prove in the upcoming Poland game, to the team and fans alike, but I believe that the likes of Shay Given whose club team is involved in European competition, and in a battle for a Champions League spot next season should not be asked to travel to Eastern Europe at this stage of the season.

You have said this so many times seansouth, in fact you even said what is the point on playing friendlies at all. I'll quote you to something I posted in the Keane thread and tell me if you agree:


Ever here the saying "Money doesn't buy success"? The same principal applies here. Players need time to gel and that is what friendlies can be used for, we can't just stick Keane in against Cyprus as it would be the first time that all 11 players played together. I am sure Keane will get called up but I wouldn't put money on him playing in the match.

Villain

All your points are valid for club football where the player's have played together for a long time and train with each other day in and day out.

However Roy Keane hasn't played for Ireland since the before the last world cup.

The team has been moulding well which is proven by the good results lately, now you have the former captain coming into a new setup with new a manger and new players. He has to play in freindlies if he is become part of the new mould.

I'm sure he can adjust but can the younger players, he needs to come in and train and play with the team so it become a solid unit

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And I still stick by that irish1. I do feel friendlies are a waste of time and effort, what I think would be more useful would be for the squad to get together in Dublin ( or even somewhere in England ) and get the feel for each other.

I don't agree with friendlies, but if they have to be, then they have to be

Yes, I agree with the point you posted in the Keane thread. Roy Keane is being treated essentially as a "new" player, and he needs to be bedded in, but I said in a previous post in this thread that Keane needs to play in this game. Firstly to get the monkey of actually playing again off his back, and secondly to prove to his teammates and Ireland supporters that he does want to.

There is one thing I disagree with that you said. I do think he will play some part in the game.

kida

Irish1 - whi said anything about Keane missing the next few friendlies- I expect him to take part in most if not all of the upcoming matches- I think Kerr is talking about the friendlies that are played at ridiculous times.
Once he is settled in I don't expect him to play in all the friendlies - nor should it be expected of any of the established players.

Villain

Originally posted by kida
Irish1 - whi said anything about Keane missing the next few friendlies- I expect him to take part in most if not all of the upcoming matches- I think Kerr is talking about the friendlies that are played at ridiculous times.
Once he is settled in I don't expect him to play in all the friendlies - nor should it be expected of any of the established players.

He didn't say in the future he said "when it comes to games" which could mean any friendly.

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Irish1 can I ask, do you agree or disagree with Kerr?

Villain

Originally posted by seansouth
Irish1 can I ask, do you agree or disagree with Kerr?

I disagree every player should be treated equally.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by seansouth
And I still stick by that irish1. I do feel friendlies are a waste of time and effort, what I think would be more useful would be for the squad to get together in Dublin ( or even somewhere in England ) and get the feel for each other.

The experience you get from playing with your teammates in training cannot even be compared with the experience of playing with the same players in a match. The big deal you said you have with friendlies is that players are risking getting injured. How is there any less of a risk with training? I have heard of big injuries coming from a training session.

kida

Having read the link - Kerr seems to be the one to decide who plays - hes the manager and its his perogative who he calls up when.

I think he will also play against Romania & Holland - after that its up to Kerr - its in his interests to keep the older players fresh too.

Villain

Originally posted by kida
Having read the link - Kerr seems to be the one to decide who plays - hes the manager and its his perogative who he calls up when.

I think he will also play against Romania & Holland - after that its up to Kerr - its in his interests to keep the older players fresh too.

Thats your opinion, mine is he is wrong and that every player should be treated equally.

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If the players got together in a modern training facility somewhere in Britain or Ireland the chance of getting injured is significantly reduced on the risk in an Eastern European sub-standard facility and playing surface, I'm sure you'll agree?

I think international players need to get together, I am not disputing that fact, but it should be done in a controlled manner, to reduce risk of injury, and to ensure that players are at their maximum, both mentally and physically for the games that actually mean something.

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Originally posted by irish1
every player should be treated equally.

Players are not sheep though, and they cannot be treated as such. Every one of them has different needs, and if they mean that they are treated a little differently from each other, then so be it.

Maybe PlayerA likes to play pool to relax before a game, maybe PlayerB likes to have a swim to relax, now what if Mr. Manager decides that the whole team is going to have to go somewhere and play computer games before the game, so everyone is told to head to the computer game room for gaming.

Now the day of the match arrives, but PlayerA and PlayerB are not relaxed, as they were made do something different than what they wanted before the game, they end up making vital mistakes that cost TeamX the game, maybe vital points.

How is that for equal player treatment?

kida

Kerr can manage the team/squad whatever way he wants - he will be judged by the results.

Waylander

Paul Mc Grath was excused from freindlys and even alot of training sessions due to his knees. Every player should not be treated with the same formula because some players have exceptional circumstances. Keane is one of them, he has received medical advice to limit his games where possible, so this should be taken into account when selecting teams. Fergie takes it into account at United and Kerr should take it into account for Ireland. He may not have played with the team for a couple of years but he has played with most of these players before, and he will be playing with Liam Miller, one of the ones he has not played with before, on a daily basis from next season on. He needs a couple of games under his belt to familiarise himself with any changes under Brain Kerr, but he definitely is not a young 20 year old breaking into the team and does not need to be treated as such.

Villain

Originally posted by seansouth
Players are not sheep though, and they cannot be treated as such. Every one of them has different needs, and if they mean that they are treated a little differently from each other, then so be it.

Maybe PlayerA likes to play pool to relax before a game, maybe PlayerB likes to have a swim to relax, now what if Mr. Manager decides that the whole team is going to have to go somewhere and play computer games before the game, so everyone is told to head to the computer game room for gaming.

Now the day of the match arrives, but PlayerA and PlayerB are not relaxed, as they were made do something different than what they wanted before the game, they end up making vital mistakes that cost TeamX the game, maybe vital points.

How is that for equal player treatment?

what are you on about??

I meant him being called into a sqaud for friendlies and taking part in training and the match not how they relax

Villain

Originally posted by Waylander
Paul Mc Grath was excused from freindlys and even alot of training sessions due to his knees. Every player should not be treated with the same formula because some players have exceptional circumstances. Keane is one of them, he has received medical advice to limit his games where possible, so this should be taken into account when selecting teams. Fergie takes it into account at United and Kerr should take it into account for Ireland. He may not have played with the team for a couple of years but he has played with most of these players before, and he will be playing with Liam Miller, one of the ones he has not played with before, on a daily basis from next season on. He needs a couple of games under his belt to familiarise himself with any changes under Brain Kerr, but he definitely is not a young 20 year old breaking into the team and does not need to be treated as such.

How can you possible know that Liam Miller will be playing along side him??

If he's injured then obviously he shouldn't be selected, but when he was first approached to return he said he couldn't because of injury, now that his hip has recovered better than he thought he has made "himself available immediately".

Thats means shoudl take part in the squad activitys, I have no problem with him not playing 90 minutes but he should be in the squad, train and play some part in the games.

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Originally posted by irish1
what are you on about??

I meant him being called into a sqaud for friendlies and taking part in training and the match not how they relax

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, I was giving an example of players being treated differently on one level, and I never stated that I thought it should apply accross the board, for all situations, apologies.

My point has been illustrated Waylander by since my last post though, so I won't repeat what he said.

Villain

Originally posted by seansouth
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, I was giving an example of players being treated differently on one level, and I never stated that I thought it should apply accross the board, for all situations, apologies.

My point has been illustrated Waylander by since my last post though, so I won't repeat what he said.

Fair enough I replid to waylanders.

BaZmO*

Originally posted by irish1
Thats means shoudl take part in the squad activitys, I have no problem with him not playing 90 minutes but he should be in the squad, train and play some part in the games.

He "is" going to take part in the squad's activities, i.e. competitive matches and "some" friendlies. The fact of the matter is, he has just come out of a serious injury and operation. What's the big deal in resting him in non-competitive matches??
Surely in the interest of the team anybody in their right mind would much prefer him to be at his best for the important matches!?!
There's no point in him having a stormer of a match against Holland but then not being able to perform against Cyprus!

I take it that you're not a big fan of Mr. K???


B.

Villain

Originally posted by BaZmO*
He "is" going to take part in the squad's activities, i.e. competitive matches and "some" friendlies. The fact of the matter is, he has just come out of a serious injury and operation. What's the big deal in resting him in non-competitive matches??
Surely in the interest of the team anybody in their right mind would much prefer him to be at his best for the important matches!?!
There's no point in him having a stormer of a match against Holland but then not being able to perform against Cyprus!

I take it that you're not a big fan of Mr. K???


B.

I was until of late, I think if has allowed Keane to return he shoudl be treated as any other player is.

As i have aleady said "If he's injured then obviously he shouldn't be selected, but when he was first approached to return he said he couldn't because of injury, now that his hip has recovered better than he thought he has made "himself available immediately".

I also believe Kerr is pissing players off like Carr, I have mentioned this in other threads.

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He is being treated like any other player has been. Kerr left players out of his previous friendly squads due to club commitments. So if Keane is forced to play in friendlies that other players are being overlooked for, then there is something wrong.

There is no doubting the mans footballing ability, however it must be protected.

I'll ask you this question, would you rather see Keane play in a meaningless summer friendly against Holland, or in the WCQual Match against Cyprus ( both is not an answer ).

BaZmO*

Originally posted by seansouth


There is no doubting the mans footballing ability, however it must be protected.

There it is right there!! That's my view on the matter in a nutshell!

B.

Mighty_Mouse

He's 32 yrs old with a history of injuries. Everyone knows how good he is. He should only play a half hour here and there in friendlies. Just to get him readjusted to the team.

Villain

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
He should only play a half hour here and there in friendlies. Just to get him readjusted to the team.

I could settle with 30 minutes in each friendly and full involvement in training.

as for

There is no doubting the mans footballing ability, however it must be protected.

No one man makes a team, and for a TEAM to play well it has to a unit which has gelled together.

BaZmO*

There is no doubting the mans footballing ability, however it must be protected

You're taking that quote out of context. It doesn't mean that he shouldn't play in friendlies. It just means that he shouldn't have to play in them just for the sake of it!


B.

Villain

Originally posted by BaZmO*
You're taking that quote out of context. It doesn't mean that he shouldn't play in friendlies. It just means that he shouldn't have to play in them just for the sake of it!


B.

Nope I didn't take it out of context, just because he's world class doesn't mean he shouldn't treated the same as every other player or at the very least to the same degree but maybe limiting the number of minutes he plays

johnor

Dunno how involved he will be in training at united nevermind Ireland. Wasn't it said that he couldn't train day after a game or day before a game?? Could be wrong with that, either way I think his influence on the team will be emense, players like robbie and duff will play better with him. I think its a good thing that Cunningham has kept the captincy too, keane will be a great influence within the team but if he cannot play in every game it is better to have a constant captin like cunningham.

Waylander

Irish1 slow down and actually let a reply sink in. He is given this treatment by his club who pay his wages, which are not iunsignificant. Now you are telling me that the FAI should disregard that and play him in every freindly? Did you bitch and moan when Paul Mc Grath was given matches off due to his dodgy knee. I am prepared to put money on it that you did not.

And by the way, I know that Liam Miller will be playing beside him week in week out because Miller has signed a contract with United. From there it was not too hard to work out!

Villain

Originally posted by Waylander
Irish1 slow down and actually let a reply sink in. He is given this treatment by his club who pay his wages, which are not iunsignificant. Now you are telling me that the FAI should disregard that and play him in every freindly? Did you bitch and moan when Paul Mc Grath was given matches off due to his dodgy knee. I am prepared to put money on it that you did not.

If he's injured then he shouldn't be included in the squad, if he is to play at the highest level then IMHO he should training with the squad and take part in freindly's

Oh and can you provide me a link which shows "He is given this treatment by his club who pay his wages,"

Originally posted by Waylander

And by the way, I know that Liam Miller will be playing beside him week in week out because Miller has signed a contract with United. From there it was not too hard to work out!

Training alongside him is not the same as playing along side him in a competitive game, anyone involved in football would see that, and I seriously doubt Miller will be playing alongside him in the United team next year, IMO he was bought for the future

/edited for misspellings as usual:rolleyes:

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The thing about United paying his wages is a non-runner as far as competitive matches go, he is willing to play in them, and basically given the FIFA rules, the club can't stop him.

However, when it comes to friendly games, I think we are at the stage in European football where club games are starting to take preference over this type of game anyway ( see Sven and the amount of subs he uses in England friendlies, and even Kerr leaving players out of the Czech squad ).

Keane may well play some part in friendlies, but Kerr may decide that it simply is not worth the risk in future friendlies.

BaZmO*

Originally posted by irish1
If he's injured then he should be included in the squad

That's a typo, yeah?

B.

Villain

Originally posted by BaZmO*
That's a typo, yeah?

B.

yep sorry in work and trying to dash in and out of boards

BaZmO*

Originally posted by irish1
yep sorry in work and trying to dash in and out of boards

Probably explain the quality of your posts then!!!! :eek:

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Sorry, that was below the belt!!!!!:p

B.

Big Ears

Seansouth Poland is in central Europe .

Anyway , It is pointless having Keane invovled in all friednlies as he has injurys and is ageing but he should play in at least 60% of friendlies . Just to keep him used to playing with the other players .

Villain

Originally posted by BaZmO*
Probably explain the quality of your posts then!!!! :eek:

Sorry, that was below the belt!!!!!:p

B.

I know you only mean my spelling:D

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Central/Eastern Europe, there both of similar standard in terms of facilities, thats the point I was making.

(I may well hold my hands up and concede that Central may be slightly better, I said slightly )

Big Ears

Fair enough , But there facilaties will probably be similiar to switzerland .

Waylander

Oh and can you provide me a link which shows "He is given this treatment by his club who pay his wages,"

I do not need to give you a link. Check it out for yourself, Fergie has been very careful about playing him more then once a week, this is common knowledge and does not need backing up. As for Miller, he was brought in as one for the future, so was Ronaldo and he has played about twenty five games this season. He will play fairly regularly next season I have no doubts about that. You still have not explained how it is different from the Paul Mc Grath situation. Why would you force somebody to do something unnecessary and shorten their career. Nobody benfits! Nobody is saying he is currently injured, but you have to look after players who have weaknesses like this otherwise the clubs will refuse to let them free for any matches, competitive or freindly, on this point I disagree with SeanSouth, seeing as Roy has not yet played under Brian Kerr I think my point is illustrated here already. Also with the amounts of subs made in freindlies nowadays I am not sure how much team building can be done at these occassions anyway.

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Originally posted by Big Ears
Fair enough , But there facilaties will probably be similiar to switzerland .

Hands held up then, I wasn't aware they were so advanced.

Originally posted by Waylander
on this point I disagree with SeanSouth, seeing as Roy has not yet played under Brian Kerr

I have already said that Keane has to play in the Poland game ( elsewhere in this thread ), so I don't know what you disagree with?

eirebhoy

Originally posted by seansouth
I'll ask you this question, would you rather see Keane play in a meaningless summer friendly against Holland, or in the WCQual Match against Cyprus ( both is not an answer ).

To answer your question, of course the Cyprus match is more important and I'd prefer to see him in that but that doesn't mean Dutch match is "meaningless". I'm sure if you asked most people would they prefer if Keane had or hadn't experience playing with his team mates going into the Cyprus match, the answer would be yes. You said he can just train with the lads, I would be nearly certain if Keane travelled to Dublin for the Romania match of Amsterdam for the Dutch match he would play some part. If he wasn't going to play some part I doubt he would travel. There is no such thing as a meaningless friendly, whether its against Azerbaijan (confidence for individual players eg. Morrison scoring 5 goals can only be a good thing) or Brazil (experience), so please stop using that phrase.

His knee can't hack so much football, fair enough, but 45 minutes of passing the ball (he would hardly need to run with the young players we have) is hardly going to do much damage.

Waylander

The thing about United paying his wages is a non-runner as far as competitive matches go, he is willing to play in them, and basically given the FIFA rules, the club can't stop him.

This is what I was disagreeing with Sean. By the way I would say that the Polish facilities would not be nearly as good as the Swiss ones. I think the Swiss FA would have alot more money to spend then its Polish equivalent. As I say eireboy there is so much chopping and changing in these freindlies now that I do not think there is much of a team building benefit. Also he has played with all members of the first team plenty of times before with the possible exception of Clinton Morrison.

Villain

Originally posted by Waylander
I do not need to give you a link. Check it out for yourself, Fergie has been very careful about playing him more then once a week, this is common knowledge and does not need backing up.

I wasn't only talking about matches I was talking about training, Keane when fit has played the majority of utd games

Originally posted by Waylander
As for Miller, he was brought in as one for the future, so was Ronaldo and he has played about twenty five games this season. He will play fairly regularly next season I have no doubts about that.

Yes but Ronaldo isn't a Center Midfielder is he. Let me remind you of the Center Midfielders currently at United, Keane, Scholes, Butt, Djemba Djemba, Kleberson and Phil Neville(appears to be his primary position now) and then you have Miller.

Originally posted by Waylander

You still have not explained how it is different from the Paul Mc Grath situation. Why would you force somebody to do something unnecessary and shorten their career. Nobody benfits! Nobody is saying he is currently injured, but you have to look after players who have weaknesses like this otherwise the clubs will refuse to let them free for any matches, competitive or freindly, on this point I disagree with SeanSouth, seeing as Roy has not yet played under Brian Kerr I think my point is illustrated here already. Also with the amounts of subs made in freindlies nowadays I am not sure how much team building can be done at these occassions anyway.

I don't have to explain anything on the McGrath situation as I haven't said it was right of him to miss training etc.

I don't think Brian Kerr has made all that many subs in recent games he certainly hasn't done it early in the game or at half time.

hoolio

International friendlies are nearly a joke these days (our recent games being exceptions) and players always pull out of them,especially high profile ones,at least it looks like Roy will at least travel.People like Giggs have been doing it for years and Irish players are no strangers to being injured on a wednedsay but miraculously recovering for saturday.Anyone remember when we unleashed the strikeforce of Doherty/Crowe onto the world becuase we barely scraped 11 players together.

So anyway if Roy at least travels when he's properly fit and gives us a half here and there in friendlies i think that's all we can expect from him.And tbh all we could expect of any player his age and with his medical record.