Recording

Dr. Loon

The Art Of Sound

Hey all... my new band are intending to record a demo soon enough. We can't afford top, top quality, but we've spotted this place. I was just wondering if anyone else here has recorded with these guys and if so was it a good experience?

Cheers.

daram

Seems a little expensive for what it is. But in my opinion most of the sound of the studio lies with the engineer and how good he is. You should try get some samples of stuff they've recorded. After the summer Im intending to set up a free studio based around a new laptop and stuff that im getting, but im not sure if it will happen

Dr. Loon

I thought it didn't seem expensive at all!! I've recorded in a number of places more expensive with **** results... and in cheaper places with good results. You're right... a good engineer is key.

We will of course be checking out previously recorded stuff. It'd be foolish not to.

Eoin Madsen

I can't get into that site (for Java related reasons). Could someone stick up their rates?

Dr. Loon

€220 per day + Engineer - for a 10 hour day.
€30 per hour + engineer

Drum hire - €65 per day
Guitar hire - €38 per day
Amp hire - €38 per day

All prices excluding VAT @ 21%

Eoin Madsen

Is that including or excluding VAT? I thought it was illegal to exclude VAT in prices.

Seems pretty pricey. Is there any sound samples?

Dr. Loon

No sound samples. Like I said - it appears to be excluding VAT.

welly

how come the vat rate is 21% i thought that was for products etc ,service rates are 13.5% check it out, no point paying some scammer vat he or she is not entitled to.

Eoin Madsen

Sorry, thought it might have been a typo. If you're shopping around, take a look at my site. Prices include VAT, and there's several sound samples available.

The VAT for services of this nature is 21%, according to Revenue.

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by Eoin Madsen
Sorry, thought it might have been a typo. If you're shopping around, take a look at my site. Prices include VAT, and there's several sound samples available.

Yeah I had a look at your site there... you charge per song?!? How does that work?

Eoin Madsen

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
How does that work?

Pretty well! It takes away time restrains, making for a more relaxed atmosphere. Basically I go on what instruments/tracks are in the song. There's a breakdown on the http://www.avaricestudio.com/studio.htm page. It means you can establish how much it will cost before you begin, and you leave with exactly what you went in for. If you're more interested in negotiating a rate per time, you can email me - eoin@avaricestudio.com.

daram

I've heard some stuff from a band who recorded in Avarice and the quality was crap. Although so were the band, they were called casca, based in celbridge out near you. They've since split up, but the demo they made with you was really bad. Dr. Loon, are you in Apollo Creed or is that someone else? If you are I'll give you free recording at the end of the summer when Iget my studio set up. Just saving up for a laptop. Might not be the best in the world but its better than a lot out there and itsalso free.

Töpher

Originally posted by daram
I've heard some stuff from a band who recorded in Avarice and the quality was crap. Although so were the band, they were called casca, based in celbridge out near you. They've since split up, but the demo they made with you was really bad. Dr. Loon, are you in Apollo Creed or is that someone else? If you are I'll give you free recording at the end of the summer when Iget my studio set up. Just saving up for a laptop. Might not be the best in the world but its better than a lot out there and itsalso free.

Splitting up was the best thing Casca ever did. Terrible terrible band. If you could even call them that.

Eoin Madsen

Casca did not record at The Avarice, and I had nothing to do with their demo.

daram

Casca did not record at The Avarice, and I had nothing to do with their demo.

Thats just what they told everyone. Do you know them?
I heard about Avarice through there website...

Eoin Madsen

Eh, one of them definitely emailed me and as far as I remember asked for a quote. But I didn't hear from them again. What's the url of their site?

Eoin Madsen

Before we go off the point I want to add: if you play a Pearl Export drumkit along with Epiphones or Squiers through Marshall Valvestate amps - you'll sound crap whether you record with me or in Windmill Lane. Similarly, if your drummer can't hold a beat, everything will sound out of time, and the bass in particular will sound awful in the mix. Contrary to popular belief: if your singer can't sing, all the autotuning in the world won't help (believe me, I've tried).

Eoin

daram

They split up because they got abused over there crapness. There website disappeared when they did, but the remnants are here. My band home record everything we do, we've got good real guitars but there recorded through a solid state fender 65w amp and it sounds good. Good yamaha advantage drum kit too, mic'd with only four mics tho, cause the room is small and it sounds perfect through them. What autotuning software do you use, I've done some crazy stuff playing around with antares, you'd be surprised how real it sounds. I think with a good condenser mic, a computer and some good software/plugins, there's no need for studios and the like. In general anyway.

Eoin Madsen

I can't agree with your philosophy. The better the gear (instruments, mics, preamps, a/d converters) and the nicer the tone of the room, the better it will sound - and if you put all that in a house, then it's still a recording studio. Obviously a good engineer is essential but you can't polish a turd, as they say.

I wouldn't be surprised by Antares, I've used it. It's great for making good things sound better, and fixing strong notes that are out of tune. But a weak singer in tune is still a weak singer!

It sounds like you've a really nice setup for demoing your band. But if you had someone else in and they wanted the snare louder with longer sustain and the hihats lower - how would you do it? Or if they wanted a drier drum sound than the natural reverb of the room?

I record in a completely dampened area so there's no room characteristic or reflections at all. This means I can digitally apply reverbs and room models to suit the project or song specifically. I find it's much easier than taking my kit into a church when I want them to sound extra huge.

What's your band, and have you a demo?

fitz

Originally posted by daram
I've heard some stuff from a band who recorded in Avarice and the quality was crap.

Well, since we've established that the band never recorded there, I'd also like to dispel the other blatant mistruth implied in this post.

I'm recording an album at the Avarice Studio, and the results are far from crap.

Here's a full length sample of a rough mix:

http://www.audioarch.co.uk/fitz/nicknames.mp3

Make up your own mind.

daram

The room we use to record is about 8foot*10foot and its fully dampened so natural reverb isnt really an issue. What computer software do you use? I've taken a liking to nuendo. Its pretty sweet. Great built in compressor.

Töpher

Originally posted by fitz
Well, since we've established that the band never recorded there, I'd also like to dispel the other blatant mistruth implied in this post.

I'm recording an album at the Avarice Studio, and the results are far from crap.

Here's a full length sample of a rough mix:

http://www.audioarch.co.uk/fitz/nicknames.mp3

Make up your own mind.

Great sound quality there man.

Are the drums done electronically or played live? My one thing that put me off the song was the sound of that crash cymbal. Seems almost fake.

Good sound quality and a nice song tho

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by daram
Dr. Loon, are you in Apollo Creed or is that someone else? If you are I'll give you free recording at the end of the summer when Iget my studio set up. Just saving up for a laptop. Might not be the best in the world but its better than a lot out there and itsalso free.

I am indeed in Apollo Creed... do I know ye? Free recording sounds good.

fitz

Originally posted by Einstürzende
Great sound quality there man.

Are the drums done electronically or played live? My one thing that put me off the song was the sound of that crash cymbal. Seems almost fake.

Good sound quality and a nice song tho

Damn Pro Sonix!

Nah, they're real drums, real cymbals, real drummer.
The multi-talented Mr. Madsen in fact...flash bastard. :rolleyes:

daram

Wouldnt say you know me. Not sure which of apollo creed you are. Remember going into whelans for a pint with yer singer after a gig yis played in portabello a while back. Was fairly hammered that night though. I'll be in touch as soon as I get my homemade studio of the ground. Whenever that may be. Paying for something so trivial as recording is soooo yesterday. Money and music should never mix.

(Another comment that will cause some crap)

daram

fitz, do you know a guy called Dave Donovan? Just wondering?

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by daram
Wouldnt say you know me. Not sure which of apollo creed you are. Remember going into whelans for a pint with yer singer after a gig yis played in portabello a while back. Was fairly hammered that night though.

Shíte.... how many Apollo Creed's are there? I don't remember playing a gig in Portobello!?

fitz

Yeah, I know Dave.
Have we met daram?

I'm gonna ignore the music and money comment.

One other point: free doesn't always equal good.

daram

I think we may have at one point. Can't remember when. Or how. Or how Dave came into it. Still. Just recognised your name from somewhere.

Apollo Creed, funk-ish band? Incredibly charismatic singer. Did a cover of Thriller and something by JT, just for the craic. Was a laugh. You?

Eoin Madsen

Cheers Fitz. Though the samples on my website are newer and generally sound a bit better. The drums in Nicknames and Mindgames are done with my old Pearl Forum and Tony's Sabian ProSonix. And there was quite a bit of looping done. I'd agree with you on the crash, it's always sounded a bit obnoxious in that recording, but we wrote the song off in terms of the album so I never bothered to fix it.

Regarding cash for recording...? It a specialist occupation, like any other. If I offered to go in and fix your plumbing for free, would you let me?

daram

I know, I know. I posted that comment and regreted it straight away. I've just never had to pay for recording, so I don't see the need to. I always seem to manage to get it for free. I've got a fair few contacts which have worked in my favour over the past while. I also scored a great deal as the guinea-pig band used for the student projects in D.L. college. Basically we go out there for a day and let the sound-engineering students record us. It's free and we get a copy of the masters at the end of the day. So I can mix it myself. Its a full studio too. Pro-tools and a mad fully digital desk. Be mad to say no.

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by daram
Apollo Creed, funk-ish band? Incredibly charismatic singer. Did a cover of Thriller and something by JT, just for the craic. Was a laugh. You?

We don't do a cover of thriller so not us! Strange I didn't think there was another Dublin based Apollo Creed. Must look into it

daram

True, thats a bit strange. The "other" Apollo Creed are a band made up of members of other bands, if you know what I mean. They only play one gig a year. And they're great. Hope you can live up to the name...

daram

wait a second, fitz, did you play a gig in Trinity a while back in the Buttery? where declan o'rourke headlined? or is that just my imagination?

fitz

I did indeed. Dunno who was headlining, I was in a rush off to another gig if I remember correctly....

daram

Thats where I met you. Myself and the singer in my band played second last that night! I came up to you afterwards cause I wanted to check-out your guitar. Nice lowden if I remember correctly. You left pretty soon after I was talking to ya.

fitz

Yeah, I remember the night...had to rush off.
Ah, college gigs where they pay you in beer...marvellous.

turnback

Whats the best mic for recording drums??
Or the best method?

daram

Depends what size room, acoustics and drum setup. If you're in a relatively small room then the best way (personal opinion) is two overhead condenser mics, one above the right and one above the left at a height about two foot above the cymbals and pointing towards the drumstool-ish. Play around though for the best sound. Then another cardoid mic between the snare and high-hat. Something that wont pop to easy, like an sm58 or something. And then a similar mic inside the kick. In fact if you have a third condenser mic, then use it in the kick, but any mic should do the trick.

If you've got a full set of drum mics, and you're recording in a large room, then mic each of the toms and the snare seperately, but keep the levels of these mics quite low in the mix. Also lean the overheads towards the cymbals more than the toms. The mic you were using for the snare now becomes an independant hi-hat mic.

Personal preferance would be to find a small room to record in, throw some class of material up on the walls to soak up noise and record with the four mics. I think it gives a better sound, some disagree though.

fitz

Originally posted by daram
In fact if you have a third condenser mic, then use it in the kick, but any mic should do the trick.

Pants.
Never use a condenser in a kickdrum.
Daram, don't give advice which could lead to someone damaging equipment and costing them money when you're not well versed on the subject.

Personal preferance would be to find a small room to record in, throw some class of material up on the walls to soak up noise and record with the four mics. I think it gives a better sound, some disagree though.

That's completely subjective, based on what you're limited to yourself.
Have you had the occasion to record in a big room, or any room for that matter, with overheads, a ride mic, tom mics, a snare mic, a hi-hat mic and a kick mic?
Gives far more options and control of the mix.

To the original poster, you can get by with overheads alone, but the more mics you have on the kit, the more choices you have, and the better a sound you'll get, cause you'll be more able to eliminate nasty sounding elements of the recording.

musician.ie

Never use a condenser in a kickdrum.

Actually, you can use condensors on a kick if they're designed to take high SPLs. The shure KSM137 is just 1 example.

fitz

Granted, I'm unfamiliar with specialised condensers such as the one you've mentioned.
The majority however, are not designed to take what a kick will give.
In general, it's a bloody bad idea.

Advising someone to use a condenser in a kick, without qualifying it with the fact that it must have high enough SPL value to take it, well, that's asking for trouble.

Doctor J

Also, an SM57 or 58 won't pick up the low end in a bass drum and your average condenser will get destroyed inside the bass drum, as Fitz pointed out, due to the exceptionally high spl. For a reasonably cheap solution try the AKG D112

musician.ie

Yup it's a bad idea to put your antique Neumann in there.

I heard a comparison before using different mics on a kick ( can't recall the website ). They used the usual suspects D112s, etc. But they also used that shure, and it sounded nice, and different.

Some day when I win the lotto.....

daram

Don't get me wrong fitz, i did maintain that my methods were my own personal preference throughout. I have (or had) the means of putting mics on every bit of the kit. But I think it gets awfully fiddly and the sound is much more natural with just 4 mics. Again, just a personal preference. And true, I forgot to mention that if using a condenser mic on a kick, don't actually put it inside. Apologies.

Eoin Madsen

Yeah, there's some really nice kick condensors about if you have the €€ for it. I use a D112, which is great - though I find it needs quite a bit of EQ to clear up the tone.

Regarding number of mics on the kit: If you put four mics on then all you have is four signals to work with. If you put nine mics on, you can take five of them out of the final mix if you decide prefer that sound after the rest is recorded. Kick, snare, and overheads are the most important alright. But hh and snare sharing a mic is a bad idea. One of the most common problems recording drums is the hihats being too loud over the snare, surprisingly enough. Even just micing the snare, HH spill can create an abundance of problems. The hats will always pick up fine in the overhead if you don't have a hh mic. But you need a separately controllable snare level more than anything else.

daram

I didn't mean share a mic between the snare and hihat. I meant physically put it between them. But pointing at the snare. I'm really bad at explaining things. So I'll give up. If anyone needs me, I'll be jumping out a fourth story window somewhere...

Töpher

Yay!

fitz

Originally posted by daram
I didn't mean share a mic between the snare and hihat. I meant physically put it between them. But pointing at the snare.

Yeah, that's as figured...but you still get a donkeyload of spill from the hi-hats into that snare mic.
Mixing drums is one of the most challenging parts of studio work, in my experience...

Eoin Madsen

In your experience?? You crack me up, Fitz...

balaftuna

hi Dr. Loon.

my price is 150 Euro for 8+ hours day including VAT.
but....... i'm 3 hours from Dublin..

http://www.shaysstudio.ie

cheers.