Immigration Referendum

Phil_321

Hopefully this referendum(the real one) will put a stop to the abuse of our immigration system once and for all.

Johnmb

Has the wording been published yet?

Johnmb

To answer my own question, it has. I cut and paste this from:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0408/citizenship.html

The proposed amendment:

1. Notwithstanding any other provision of the Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland which includes its islands and seas, and who does not have at the time of his or her birth, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen of entitled to be a Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless otherwise provided for by law.

2. This section shall not apply to persons born before the date of the enactment of this section.

To comment, I'll go with it. I would have prefered something a little more concrete than "provided for by law", but if it was, it wouldn't really be serving the purpose of a constitution.

Sleepy

When is this referendum to be held. To be honest I'd prefer if the law was backdated but I assume that's impossible.

Johnmb

Originally posted by Sleepy
When is this referendum to be held. To be honest I'd prefer if the law was backdated but I assume that's impossible.

11 June, along with the Local elections and the European elections. I think backdating it would be a little unfair, as the people who currently have citizenship satisfied all the requirements that were asked of them, to backdate this would set a dangerous precedent.

Beruthiel

I am really undecided about this one, I do not believe you are entitled to become an Irish citizen just like that, I don’t want it to get to the stage where any women thinks she can just hop on a plane and give birth here.
However, I know how slowly the Irish government and their paperwork takes, i.e. – it is not fair to send a child of 5,6 or 7 or how ever long it takes them to send them back to where it’s parents have come from, they would have gotten used to living here by then and I don't believe a child should be made suffer because of its parents.
:dunno:

zedsDeadBaby

What happens to the child if they are born here and deemed not to be an Irish citizen because of this?
What if the parents country also has a law to say that not being born there means you are not a citizen? Or is this even possible?
Are they a non-any-national.
A citezen of the world?

Johnmb

Originally posted by zedsDeadBaby
What happens to the child if they are born here and deemed not to be an Irish citizen because of this?
What if the parents country also has a law to say that not being born there means you are not a citizen? Or is this even possible?
Are they a non-any-national.
A citezen of the world?

I don't think it matters. The child not being a citizen won't effect the asylum claim. And if there is any danger to the child in going back to the parents country of origin, that in itself would cause the claim to be successful.

Kell

Originally posted by zedsDeadBaby
What happens to the child if they are born here and deemed not to be an Irish citizen because of this?
What if the parents country also has a law to say that not being born there means you are not a citizen? Or is this even possible?
Are they a non-any-national.

Not knowing the exact specifics, but I am assume they would be just non-national and never at any point have a claim on Irish citizenship. Doesnt mean they automatically have to be deported because they're not Irish same as every other country in Europe.

K-

Victor

Originally posted by Johnmb
The child not being a citizen won't effect the asylum claim.

What asylum claim? A bit presumptious isn't it?

rde

As it stands, I don't know how I'm going to vote, and in the hope of seeing an argument that'll convince me, I'll offer this observation:

The fundamental question is "should you be Irish if you're born in Ireland?" If you answer yes, absolutely, then that's it; you vote no and let the Good Friday amendment stand. If you think then there should be limits, then you should wait until the bill is published to see what limitations will be set. You'll also have to bear in mind that these limitations could be changed by future governments. If you vote 'no', then any future change will have to be ratified by referendum.

To be honest, I've a bit of difficulty seeing why this is necessary. Ignoring McDowell's initial dubious justification, the argument seems to be that descendents of these citizenship tourists will also qualify for Irish nationality. The word he described on the 6 O'clock news was 'unsustainable'. But what does that mean? What's unsustainable? Why shouldn't someone who's been born on this country be a citizen? I would've thought that'd be central to any definition.

ai ing

A child can always have the nationality of its parents or in the well known case of the 90's Irish football team, grandparents. I dont think any country in the world would deny the child the nationality of its parents because it was born outside the country

ai ing

The problem of citizenship tourists is quite a large problem in the Dublin maternity hospitals .A figure given by the masters of the hospitals was upwards of 20% of births were to non-nationals.

Johnmb

Originally posted by Victor
What asylum claim? A bit presumptious isn't it?

Well, if there is no asylum claim, what's the problem? If the parents are here long term, the child will get citizenship, if the parents are here short term, why would the child require citizenship?

rde

A figure given by the masters of the hospitals was upwards of 20% of births were to non-nationals.

I seem to spend a lot of time on the internet giving out about the use of statistics. Anyway, here I go again...
Twenty per cent of births were to non-nationals. I'll accept that in some hospitals in certain sections of the country those figures are correct. But over what time period? The shorter the period, the greater the chance it was a temporary spike. Before this 'crisis' began, what percentage of non-nationals were there? We have many, many non-nationals working here, perhaps for the long term. How many of these are in that twenty percent?

And why is it such a large problem? If it's simply one of resources in some hospitals, a referendum seems a horrible overreaction.

Johnmb

Just to say why I'll most likely vote yes, it has nothing to do with the so-called "citizenship tourists". While I think that should be controlled in some way, I don't feel the numbers warrant me bothering to vote on that issue alone (plus I like the fact that Ireland is much more multi-cultural now than ever before). My main reason is to allow us to standardise with the rest of the EU. I am a very pro-EU person, and I feel that certain things, like citizenship, should be the same throughout. That is my reasoning, and I'm stating it clearly now because I have a feeling this debate (generally, not necessarily here) will become solely about asylum seekers, as my earlier post proved without me even intending it to

ai ing

http://www.justice.ie/802569B20047F907/vWeb/wpMJDE5WZMEU

Have a read of this . I point you attention to points 11 and 12.
We are being targeted by people looking for EU citizinship being the only country in the EU to offer automatic citizenship through birth( Point 15).
Over 6 months 57% of femaleasylum seekers over the age of 16 were pregnant on arrival in Ireland

arcadegame2004

The proposal will say that a parent has to be an Irish citizen or living in Ireland in 3 years first to be entitled to apply for Irish citizenship. I will vote "Yes". Expect lots of scaremongering from the "No" campaign who will tell us how "confusing" or "rushed" or "railroaded" this excellent but VERY belated supposedly is. "Rushed"!?!!? Haven't we had 6 years to think about this since 1998?!?!? I want to protect Ireland from potential infiltration by international criminal gangs (there are at least 3 major gangs in Cork - a Chinese triad gang, a Nigerian gang, and a Russian gang, so says a friend of mine living there whose business premises was trashed by one of them). I want to protect our Health Service from gross abuse by asylum-seeking women who get pregnant solely to emotionally blackmail the courts and politicians into granting them asylum, thereby lessening the impact of the huge increase in our Health-spending (at least in part). I also want to protect Irish jobs from being lost due to the fact that asylum-seekers are prepared to work for below the minimum-wage, making them more attractive for bosses than us.

This proposal is NOT racist. We are simply re-introducing the pre-1998 reality. Before 1998, citizenship law was the preserve of the Dail, not the Constitution. No-one realised then that the changes to Articles 2 and 3 could be interpreted as allowing asylum-seekers or their children to get Irish citizenship, as we were only at the start of the bogus-asylum problem then. No other country - including the US - has a Constitutional provision automatically conferring national citizenship on the children of asylum-seekers. Yes, it may be allowed by US law, but it is not in their Constitution, unlike here.

Let us turn out in great numbers to defeat the extreme-left for whom only unrestricted immigration will suffice.

Phil_321

Originally posted by rde


And why is it such a large problem? If it's simply one of resources in some hospitals, a referendum seems a horrible overreaction.

State services for asylum seekers cost 350 million Euro in 2002. I see that as a LARGE problem. That money could have been much better spent on health services, public transport, etc......

Chaz

Originally posted by Phil_321
State services for asylum seekers cost 350 million Euro in 2002. I see that as a LARGE problem. That money could have been much better spent on health services, public transport, etc......

What - like the LUAS?

halkar

I will go Yes for this one knowing and seeing that the system is abused openly. You just have to go to street and see. Hard to see a non pregnant non-nationals these days. Why are they getting pregnant and bring a child to use it for their case? I am not blaming them for abusing the system that was left open to be abused. But they should at least be warned about abusing the system while their cases being heard and decided. If their assylum application approved there is already a law for non-nationals to become nationals in 5 years or something.

arcadegame2004, after May when the rest of the east block joins Europe we might start seeing Czech gang, Latvian gang, Hungarian gang and what not gang All these gangs will gang on eachother and leave us alone hopefully

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I want to protect our Health Service from gross abuse by asylum-seeking women who get pregnant solely to emotionally blackmail the courts and politicians into granting them asylum, thereby lessening the impact of the huge increase in our Health-spending (at least in part).

Can you give one example of when a person has been given asylum due to their child being an Irish citzen.
Btw, that's a nice subtle comment hidden in that post. "Asylum seekers are responsible for the state of our health system".
You're not a member of that anti immigration party that operates down the country by any chance?

Phil_321

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Can you give one example of when a person has been given asylum due to their child being an Irish citzen.

What are you talking about? It was only a few months ago that the government decided to stop this practice(giving asylum to parents of children born in Ireland). There was an outcry over it from the refugee rights organisations in Ireland. There has already been a big drop in the numbers seeking asylum since this happened.

Btw, that's a nice subtle comment hidden in that post. "Asylum seekers are responsible for the state of our health system".
You're not a member of that anti immigration party that operates down the country by any chance?

Read what he said:
"lessening the impact of the huge increase in our Health-spending (at least in part)."
The asylum seekers are partly responsible for the state of the health service.... 50 million euro was spent by the Dept. of Health on asylum seekers in 2002.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Phil_321
What are you talking about? It was only a few months ago that the government decided to stop this practice(giving asylum to parents of children born in Ireland).

Can you provide a link to back that up?

There has already been a big drop in the numbers seeking asylum since this happened.

Can you provide a link to back that up?

Read what he said:

Note the word subtle in my post.

Chaz

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Can you provide a link to back that up?

Can you provide a link to back that up?

Note the word subtle in my post.

It was a high court judgement around Feb last year. If you look at the fact sheet you will see around that time the numbers went 0, 0, 0 onwards for the amount of Passports issued.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Chaz
It was a high court judgement around Feb last year. If you look at the fact sheet you will see around that time the numbers went 0, 0, 0 onwards for the amount of Passports issued.

The Supreme Court ruled in January last year that having a child who is a citizen is not grounds for automatic citizenship.
There is no need, imo, to change the consitution. McDowell said last year(*) there wasn't going to be any changes made to it.
It all just smacks of appealing to rascist views/ignorance/paranoia of people, i.e. a voting gimmick.
And what else are we being asked to vote on the same day?


*Source

He [McDowell] also says there will be no move to amend the citizenship provisions of the Constitution, including the new Article 2 adopted with the Belfast Agreement, which had previously been mooted.

If you look at the fact sheet you will see around that time the numbers went 0, 0, 0 onwards for the amount of Passports issued.

Does this not mean the ruling of the Supreme Court is putting the scam artists off coming here?

Chaz

Yep

It seems at the moment - what they are saying - is that between the high court thing and when the law is(if) passed, the people turned away are still eligible.

I watch with a careful eye as I am a non national. Hardly asulym seeker class. I work hard, pay tax and am part of the Irish system as I am on a professional work authorisation. We are planning on having another child - our first is already 5 and not born here - what then?

According to their wording - if you are non national, but born here - then you remain non national. OK - fine.
As it happens, my family is from Ireland - at least from my Dad's side. He, as well as his monther (my gran) was born in South Africa. She is Irish, her parents born here. If you follow that train of though - that means they have never 'lost' Irish citizenship as they are from here - and simply born elsewhere. Thats the law they are pass.

Whats good for one - is good for the other. If they would like to pass a law basically alientating people that are born here - then people that are orignally from here should be eligible to return.

On the current policy - I cannot claim citizenship as my gran was not born in Ireland - but her parents were.

corley

Just a couple of thoughts on this referendum:

- Statistics about "non-nationals" giving birth in our hospitals are dubious in relation to the citizenship referendum. Any citizen of another EU country is entitled to live and work here (and even give birth here!) but they will all be classed as "non-nationals" according to these statistics.

- The NCCRI (National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism - the state body which monitors racist incidents) has said that they have found that the number of racist attacks in Ireland increases around the time of an election. For the government to hold a referendum on such a highly charged issue on the same day as the local and European elections is totally irresponsible.

- The government are making statements about the citizenship not being "a useful thing to people with no connection with our state". I have an American friend who has never set foot in Ireland but took out Irish citizenship because she wanted to work in Paris and had an Irish grandparent. I personally think that someone whose family have moved to this country and started a family here is more entitled to citizenship than my friend.

Just my tuppence (or is it two cents?) worth,

Corley.

silverside

This law is not aimed at legal residents. The government will pass a law so that if the parents were long-term legal residents the child will be entitled to citizenship.

The government just want to close off automatic residency for children of the thousands of scam artists from certain countries who come here every year solely to give birth. And they are entirely right.

AngelofFire

both of my parents are english. i was born in this country i love this country i consider myself to be irish. nobody should have the right to cast me from the land where i was born.

nobody comes here with the intention of having children so that they can get citizenship those claims are as narrow as the claims that teenage girls get pregnant to get themselves on the housing list. assylum seekers come here to escape persescution and have no idea about articles in the constituiton allowing their children to become citizens. taking away the right for children born here to become citizens is just institutionalised xenophobia.

people can bring up social and economic arguments all they like, its a just a way of hiding their prejudice against other races.they are also showing a gross ignorance to their country`s history. between 1900 and 1990 an average of 65,000 irish emigrated each year. thats not to mention the millions that went to australia, scotland and america during the 19th century

DadaKopf

Hopefully this referendum(the real one) will put a stop to the abuse of our immigration system once and for all.

I was under the impression that categorical evidence for this assumption was neither conclusive nor forthcoming.

What we have are a few figures from maternity hospitals. In today's Irish Times, there were a number of articles outlaying the referendum's shaky grounds of justification.

First, the maternity workers deny they 'pleaded' to McDowell to sort out the overcrowding problem - of course, there's no proof been offered that everyone born here stays here because the figures aren't forthcoming. Now McDowell switches his justification to the all-important issue of cohesion in our citizenship laws, although the jurisprudential argument hasn't been stated, nor has the conclusive evidence that the citizenship laws, as they are, are being 'abused'.

It seems to me the government is skirting around the real issue. Our politicians are attempting to redefine the conditions of Irish citizenship in the absence of a proper public debate on the issue.

They could prove to us this constitutional reform is necessary by showing us the facts and explaining to us the ramifications of a 'yes' and 'no' vote - but that'll be left to the Referendum Commission. Don't let the politicians convince us, leave it up to the civil servants.

Given that the government doesn't seem likely to spell out exactly why it's introducing this legislation, I think it's only fair to conclude that it is, at some level, racially motivated.

silverside

Its not racially motivated. Its aimed at stopping large numbers of people from far-off lands taking advantage of our system. Of course these people are not rich white and well educated because if they were they would rather stay in their own country.

I think political correctness is going too far. There is obviously a potential problem if we are the only country in EU to give automatic citizenship to all born here. If we want to close that off we are accused of being racist. Surely as a country we are entitled to decide who we want living here. If looking after our own first and foremost makes me a racist then OK I'm a racist.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by silverside
If looking after our own first and foremost makes me a racist then OK I'm a racist.

Can you tell me how I will be "protecting our own" if I vote yes in the referendum?
I seriously cannot see any benefit to changing the constitution, what am I missing?

AngelofFire

Originally posted by silverside
. If looking after our own first and foremost makes me a racist then OK I'm a racist.

it actually does make you a racist cos your proposed "looking after your own" and not care about others is a descriminatory against other ethnic groups

silverside

It will mean that fewer people from XXXia will be coming here pregnant taking advantage of our health services on the hope that since their baby will be a citizen they will have some rights that they otherwise wouldn't have. The masters of the Coombe and Rotunda certainly seem to think there is a problem, as well as other reports. OK I dont have facts and figures to hand but there does seem to be a problem there.

silverside

AngelOfFire,
you have to draw the line somewhere. Do you propose we open our borders and let anyone we want live here and give out Irish passports to anyone who fills in an application form? If so, good luck and see how long our society and economy hold up, If not, please tell us where you would draw the line.

AngelofFire

there is no evidence that immigrants come here merely to abuse our system. read my previous posts

Villain

Originally posted by AngelofFire
there is no evidence that immigrants come here merely to abuse our system. read my previous posts

lol, where I live there is a very large number of immigrants, all driving cars living in nice houses etc etc and how many do I see working?

Very fuc king few, I have no problem with immigrants coming here and working and paying tax's like me.

What I do have a problem is with me working and paying tax's to supply them.


Only racist against lazy bastards who won't get a job, IMHO if they are here more than 3 months and haven't got a job they should be thrown out of the country.

capistrano

Originally posted by AngelofFire
both of my parents are english. i was born in this country i love this country i consider myself to be irish. nobody should have the right to cast me from the land where i was born.

Fear not, AngelofFire, as the UK is an EU member you would still be able to get Irish citizenship after being resident for a few years. Even before EU times UK citizens could live in Ireland and become Irish citizens after a period of time.

nobody comes here with the intention of having children so that they can get citizenship those claims are as narrow as the claims that teenage girls get pregnant to get themselves on the housing list. assylum seekers come here to escape persescution and have no idea about articles in the constituiton allowing their children to become citizens.

That's just pure naivete! So you imagine that it's pure coincidnece that 57% of female asylum seekers over 16 arrive in this country pregnant. That asylum seekers in the UK, 8.5 months pregnant, travel to Ireland to have their children just because of our fabulous health service. The masters of the maternity hospitals did say a large number of women arrive without any ante-natal visits at all. You sure have an active imagination, AngelofFire.

We have a responsibility to our European partners. Being an Irish citizen allows you to live and work in any ofthe 25 EU countries. I agree, we should have a proper immigration regime where people can apply to live andwork in Ireland and after a number of years become citizens. Because we don't have such a regime everybody shows up claiming they were persecuted at home. And frankly, there isn't much persecution in Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Nigeria and the other countries where our asylum seekers come from.

It understandable that people from very poor countries should want to come here and make a better live for themselves and their families but it can't be a free for all. We need a system.[/B][/QUOTE]

silverside

OK we could argue about this for a long time but I believe that there are a large number of heavily pregnant women who come to Ireland just before giving birth, because of our current citizenship laws. If you don't believe that that is fair enough, I am not going to go digging out statistics. I think most people agree with me that there is a flaw at the moment and that that will be remedied in this referendum.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by silverside
It will mean that fewer people from XXXia will be coming here pregnant taking advantage of our health services on the hope that since their baby will be a citizen they will have some rights that they otherwise wouldn't have.

At the moment, because of the supreme court ruling last year, they do not have an advantage when applying for residence/asylum if their child is Irish.

The masters of the Coombe and Rotunda certainly seem to think there is a problem, as well as other reports

Those reports seem to be getting used out of context, the people behind the quotes seem to be distancing themselves. Bottom line, there's no clear evidence to support the arguement for the referendum.

I hope when the time comes and there's a referendum that will effect all of us Irish citizens, people won't be so flippant about changing our constitution.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by silverside
I think most people agree with me that there is a flaw at the moment and that that will be remedied in this referendum.

It won't be "remedied" if it's passed.
There's some unspecified law(s) that need to be passed too I believe.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by irish1
lol, where I live there is a very large number of immigrants, all driving cars living in nice houses etc etc and how many do I see working?

Do you have them all under surveillance?
This referendum won't stop people (if they are) abusing the social welfare system or working illegally.
I see the government's target audience is getting the message from this campaign.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by capistrano
Fear not, AngelofFire, as the UK is an EU member you would still be able to get Irish citizenship after being resident for a few years. Even before EU times UK citizens could live in Ireland and become Irish citizens after a period of time.

thats not good enough i was born here and i feel as irish as seamus o maolcathaigh who has red hair and freckles and many other people born of foreign parents feel the same way. why should we be less entitled to citizenship

capistrano

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
It won't be "remedied" if it's passed.
There's some unspecified law(s) that need to be passed too I believe.

The law is not "unspecified", as you say, it's actually been published.

It just say that one of your parents should have been legally resident in Ireland for 3 years (or 3 out of 5 or something like that) to the child born in Ireland to be entitled to Irish citizenship.

Try to keep up.

Villain

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Do you have them all under surveillance?
This referendum won't stop people (if they are) abusing the social welfare system or working illegally.
I see the government's target audience is getting the message from this campaign.

lol,

Don't try and patronise me, it's a small area so trust me I know.

It won't stop them currently doing it but it might stop a few more coming over and doing the same.

Oh and as I already said

What I do have a problem is with me working and paying tax's to supply them.

Only racist against lazy bastards who won't get a job, IMHO if they are here more than 3 months and haven't got a job they should be thrown out of the country.

capistrano

Originally posted by AngelofFire
thats not good enough i was born here and i feel as irish as seamus o maolcathaigh who has red hair and freckles and many other people born of foreign parents feel the same way. why should we be less entitled to citizenship

But I just said that you will still be entitled to Irish citizenship.

Let me put it another way, say you and the missus went off on holidays to Switzerland, Saudi Arabia, Japan, whereever, and while you were there had a sprog. Do you think said sprog should automatically be entitled to Swiss, Saudi, Japanese, or whatever, citizenship? Well, whatever you think, they wouldn't have a prayer.

Villain

Originally posted by AngelofFire
thats not good enough i was born here and i feel as irish as seamus o maolcathaigh who has red hair and freckles and many other people born of foreign parents feel the same way. why should we be less entitled to citizenship

Not if your parents come here from far away for the sole purpose of making you an Irish Citizen

If they wish to re-locate here and join the community and contribute to the Economy not drain it then fair enough.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by irish1
It won't stop them currently doing it but it might stop a few more coming over and doing the same.

Wasn't trying to patronise, just messing
I don't think it would stop them tbh, wouldn't tackling whatever failings in the social welfare system or whatever that's letting them get away with it not be a better idea?

Chaz

A simple cure. Put a minimum stay period. If the child is born 10 months AFTER the mother has arrive in the country - then give citizenship - not before.
This means that the mother conceived in Ireland. On top of that - other restrictions could be placed to offset the 'get rich quick types' that are screwing the system.

Ive personally been in Ireland for nearly 18 months - my wife 12 months. I pay tax, have a PPS number. I would only see it natural to have my next child, and for him to be Irish. The issue at hand is - what happens when my Visa is perhaps not approved for another period etc etc?

Villain

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Wasn't trying to patronise, just messing
I don't think it would stop them tbh, wouldn't tackling whatever failings in the social welfare system or whatever that's letting them get away with it not be a better idea?

Well thats a different argument, one that needs to be examined do in a big way, but once they arrive the government feels obliged to assist them.

Just one little story:

A friend of mine had a child about 2 years ago, she's living with her sister in a small flat, she's been on the council's house waiting list since the child was born she still hasn't got one, a family of immigrants arrived in town about a year ago, they were in a flat for a while then got a council house.

Now my friend had worked full-time for about 3 years before she got pregant and now works part-time, none of that immigrant family work!!:mad: :mad: