APTN pictures of attack on Foreign civilians in Iraq

stuartfanning

Site below has the uncensored Associated Press Television News coverage of the attack on Foreign civilians in Iraq today. You can compare these to what we see on mainstream newscasts

**Beware graphic pictures**

http://www.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=382471

click on Brutal Attack

Exit

I'm not going to click on that link because I'd imagine the pictures are ****ing disgusting.

What surprises me though is the lack of interest in these incidents from politics posters here. I bet if the Americans did this, there'd be complete outrage from everyone here. Hell there's a huge thread complaining about US special agents possibly being allowed to kill in Ireland if deemed necessary, and not one post on these actual killings and barbaric acts.

(If there are actually posts on this, then I take it back, but I couldn't find anything on the first page of the forum)

bonkey

Originally posted by Exit
I bet if the Americans did this, there'd be complete outrage from everyone here.

Yes, there would. The American army is supposed to be trained, disciplined, considerate of humanitarian issues relevant to whatever situation they are in, etc. etc. etc.

For them to act in such a barbarous manner would be - quite literally - unthinkable.

To see it in the form that it did occur in, however, is not unthinkable. Atrocious, yes, but unthinkable? Something similar has happened before - in Mogadishu for example - and will almost unquestionably happen again. Its tragic. Its saddening. Its worrying. Its sick.

But I'm still trying to figure out a bit more of what I think other than "thats a tragedy, and barbaric" before I pass "real" comment. I'd like to see if I can get a bit more informed about who did this and why this happened. It was - from what I can see, at least - not just another attack on US assets in Iraq by resistance.

Maybe I'm doing you a disservice, but your outrage seems to be more focussed on those who haven't commented on the act than on those who perpetrated it. With that in mind - the outrage itself would seem a bit hollow. You seem more outraged that people haven't been outraged by it happening than of the fact that it happened at all.

jc

woody

My Younger Brothers Best Friend is in Southern Bagdhad in the US Marines...

He said it is turning into Vietnam, One point he did make if they pull out it will go mad and if they stay it will go mad...

All I can say is God Help the Families of the Dead Men, it is one thing being shot or blown up but mutalated is horrific by any humans standards no-one deserves that..

More are going to die before it is going to get better:(

Originally posted by Exit

What surprises me though is the lack of interest in these incidents from politics posters here. I bet if the Americans did this, there'd be complete outrage from everyone here.

Well as this thread only went up last night, late, it's a tad early still to guage whether it will become 3 or 4 pages long.


Armies of countries have standards or at least can be held accountable, unknowns cannot, that has always been the way.
It is interesting that when you take away rigid horrid regimes all hell breaks loose in the sense that those doing the all hell can get away with it.
It's possible of course that those with a significant input to creating the hell are sympathisers to the old Regime now combined with alQu'eda etc.
Nothing has changed really, except the Barbarity is focused on foreigners and is therefore more visible.

It looks like a lesson in learning to leave countries like this alone to be honest imho.
Let the barberous regimes stay in power to be eventually dealt with by their own people if at all, as long as they are not impacting on our own western freedoms.
If they are not dealt with by their own people thats something they themselves have to live with.

Victor

I think it was wrong, it is bad enough to kill someone, but then to burn and smash the bodies is wrong and only incites further hatred. The only time I have ever seen photos quite like what I saw on one of today's papers were private photos from an Irish American from the 1991 war where invariably armoured vehicles caught fire immolating their dying, but still alive passengers.

That the events of yesterday occurred is wrong, but to not expect them is perhaps naive.

Originally posted by woody
My Younger Brothers Best Friend is in Southern Bagdhad in the US Marines...

Likewise I have a friend in East Baghdad as a second lieutenant (by rank, statistically the most likely to be killed). He was to be posted to West Baghdad but "got lucky".

Originally posted by woody
mutalated

I think the term is desecrated, which is probably the worst thing someone can do other than to a living person.

woody

Just looked at the front page of the Irish Independant it is Horrific..


I have seen a lot of horrific things while in the Army but that is "cannot describe in words".

Al Jazzerra the Arab News Channel Yesterday as much as hearlded the persons who did it as said that Occupation forces where to expect more...or the same, last night at 2100...

We all wonder why then people who see this from the West, get there hearts filled with Anger at why can this be done but if there is a Accident or Similar done by Allied forces it would have the UN and every organisation in the world with some clouth looking for investigation and answers...To be straight Up-roar as Poor Yanks are regarded as numbers and it is now a daily thing to hear on the News, a US Solider killed in Baghdad etc...

Those people most likely will not be caught and will do this again...
Yes the Allies invaded and removed a Despot but I myself think their tatics where wrong , well the Yanks more so the Brits seem to have more experience in Urban WarFare and FIBUA (Fighting in Built Up Areas)...Not to be harping on..But maybe Israeli style tatics may work to restore Law and Order as Conventional troops such as Marines and Rangers are not suited...It is a Special Forces War...And I dont think the General Iraqi Population want there hearts and Minds won, I dont think they know what they want...It is great for Al Qadia as they are a testing ground for all there tatics,weapons and even training there men...

Again I bow my head in silence to the men who died yesterday and all service men from the Allied Forces in Iraq.

sovtek

Originally posted by stuartfanning
Site below has the uncensored Associated Press Television News coverage of the attack on Foreign civilians in Iraq today.

"Foreign civilians".
A great euphemism for M-E-R-C-E-N-A-R-Y.

Hairy Homer

Of course it was a barbaric deranged thing to do.

Still doesn't make Bush and Blair's war right.

woody

Sovtek...Have a little respect as you would be the first person to be screaming if that was a lovely Iraqi being strung up..

If that was your family or friends you would be horrified... Mercenary I think not there is no need for them there, they were civilian contractors ... No human deserves that...

Is it for you one rule for Arabs and another for everyone else...

sovtek

Originally posted by woody
Just looked at the front page of the Irish Independant it is Horrific..


I have seen a lot of horrific things while in the Army but that is "cannot describe in words".

I don't really find it any more horrific than the Apache shredding what might very well have been farmers a few months ago.
Is it brutal and horrific...yes....but no more so than when it's done to Iraqis IMHO.

Al Jazzerra the Arab News Channel Yesterday as much as hearlded the persons who did it as said that Occupation forces where to expect more...or the same, last night at 2100...

Maybe because they've also seen what the US military has done to any number of civilians in Iraq so far.
Last I heard it was happening 5-15 times a day.
That's something you DO see on Al Jeezera as opposed to Al Hurra.
You also see Fox and CNN heralding killing by the US military.

We all wonder why then people who see this from the West, get there hearts filled with Anger at why can this be done but if there is a Accident or Similar done by Allied forces it would have the UN and every organisation in the world with some clouth looking for investigation and answers...

If the information in that report is currect then they were with the Department of Defense as well as possible mercenaries. They are then legitimate targets. Now if say they were all buried alive after surrendering, then yes the UN and every org would be calling for investigations.

To be straight Up-roar as Poor Yanks are regarded as numbers and it is now a daily thing to hear on the News, a US Solider killed in Baghdad etc...

Even though it's happening everyday it isn't reported everyday. It was Brent Scowcroft (and I think the likes of Rumsfeld have said similar things) that the NUMBER of soldiers killled in Iraq is really low.
"Supporting our troops" (nevermind the cuts Bush and friends have put through for vets.) indeed!!!!!!

Those people most likely will not be caught and will do this again...

And what does that suggest to you?

But maybe Israeli style tatics may work to restore Law and Order as Conventional troops such as Marines and Rangers are not suited...It is a Special Forces War...

Those Israeli tactics are working so well for the IDF, not to mention the average Israeli, now aren't they. Oh and US soldiers are using their tactics already.

And I dont think the General Iraqi Population want there hearts and Minds won, I dont think they know what they want...

Ummmm that's exactly the hearts and minds they should be winning. If they aren't then what must that mean?

It is great for Al Qadia as they are a testing ground for all there tatics,weapons and even training there men...

Yes America and the world are more secure now. Thanks Jorge!

Again I bow my head in silence to the men who died yesterday and all service men from the Allied Forces in Iraq.

Take away the mercenaries and add all the Iraqi civilians/service men then I'll be right there with ya.

Redleslie

Originally posted by woody
Sovtek...Have a little respect as you would be the first person to be screaming if that was a lovely Iraqi being strung up..

If that was your family or friends you would be horrified... Mercenary I think not there is no need for them there, they were civilian contractors ... No human deserves that...

Is it for you one rule for Arabs and another for everyone else...

They belonged to Blackwater Security Consulting. "Our mission is to provide the client with veteran military, intelligence and law enforcement professionals..."

On their website, they have some jobs going at the moment. Here's one:

Tier 1. Description: An operator with requirement-specific expertise in the skill sets identified below. Minimum eight-years experience in either SOCCOM/JSOC/Intelligence field(s). Has a current DoD/DoE/DoS clearance or the ability to pass requirements for a SECRET clearance. Retired or released from active duty within the last twenty-four months, or has maintained their skills sets through other independent contracting opportunities.

Hostage Rescue
Close Quarter Battle
Structure Penetration
Intelligence Collection
Explosive Ordnance Disposal
Forward Observer/Call-for-Fire
Reconnaissance and Surveillance
Sniper/Counter-Sniper Operations
Visit, Board, Search and Seizure Operations
Counter-narcotics/Counterterrorist Operations
Small Unit Tactics
Raid Conduct and Training
Medic
Communications

That'd be an awful strange resume for any regular civilian contractor to have.

halkar

Maybe they realise why Saddam was so cruel. No credit to him and good that he is of the power but democracy or whatever US and alies think is not a thing for Iraq. Not yet anyway. So many ethcnic groups and majority Shiite (spelling?) hardcore muslims with Saddam supporter Sunnis in the middle, Kurdish on the north, and open borders to Al-caida, I am not sure how they will keep the country in one piece. No one appears to be agreeing on anything and for the people in Iraq being soldier or civilian anyone foreign are the same. Time will tell I guess.

sovtek

Originally posted by woody
Sovtek...Have a little respect as you would be the first person to be screaming if that was a lovely Iraqi being strung up..

No lovely Iraqi's have ever attacked America or Americans in general.
Doesn't mean I value American lives any more or any less though.

If that was your family or friends you would be horrified...

Yes I would. I'd also be horrified if they worked for the Deparment of "Defense".

Mercenary I think not there is no need for them there, they were civilian contractors ... No human deserves that...

http://counterpunch.org/fisk03292004.html

Deserves what? To be shot and killed? True...
But if you pick up a gun and walk into someones country to use it..........

Is it for you one rule for Arabs and another for everyone else... [/B]

I'd ask you the same question. Last I checked no Arabs have invaded my country.

Originally posted by sovtek

Is it brutal and horrific...yes....but no more so than when it's done to Iraqis IMHO.

But at least actions authorised by a U.S government are eventually subject to the scrutiny of a vote.
These guys in Iraq have no mandate to carry out their activities and aren't ultimately subject to the same rules.
Saying that their country was invaded is not a justification in my eyes.
It's not in Northern Ireland and it's not in Iraq.

They are then legitimate targets.

Similarally if you are prepared to say that about, Iraqi attacks like this barbarous one without knowing the full story or having been there then you must apply the same logic to the U.S led occupying force.

woody

One thing I know, Iraq is not going to peace in the next decade methinks...

George Bush, I dont agree with a lot of what he does but he does have some good points but not many.. Tony Blair to be honest, he is the better of the two although he could tend to his own country first and maybe Iraq Secondly...

As regards those men being Merc's there is a fine line between the likes of Military specialists and the likes of executive outcomes...

As for Iraqi civilians, when they die they die like us but to be honest and being straight I feel more for the Service men as being former army, everyone out on the ground is a potential enemy including children so i cannot support them nor mourn for them...

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by woody
As for Iraqi civilians, when they die they die like us but to be honest and being straight I feel more for the Service men as being former army, everyone out on the ground is a potential enemy including children so i cannot support them nor mourn for them...

So killing of civilians in a country that has been invaded and occupied, for no apparent reasons other than purely economic ones, is ok once none of the invaders/occupiers die?

woody

That is not what I am saying, what I am saying is and being Biased... I dont feel for them I do for Servicemen...Yes it is Biased....

And the reason for the Invasion is not a question here, weither it is right or wrong..I just relate and have more sympathy for the average Grunt on the Ground..

comet

Having seen The Passion of the Christ recently, it brought home mans inhumanity to man. This video footage shows graphically without any Hollywood the evil that men do. There isn't much you can say just hope that Iraq can have peace soon and that people there can live normal lives, the world is a very dangerous place these days.

Havelock

Yes, its terrible, that these things where done to the bodies of the dead. But

A) It is war, this sort of thing happens in war, the invader is killed and people rejoice.

You can hardly say there is no reason for the Iraqi public not to have great hatered for the American's. Rember American sancions meant you couldn't get basic medical supplies into Iraq since first Persian Gulf war. Millions of innocent Iraqis where killed by this alone, not to mention indistriminate airstrikes on "military targets" and terrible blunders by the US Amry like the accidential straffing of school bus full of children etc. The is alot of hatered in Iraq for the American army.

C) If the contractors where Mercinaries, what were they doing there. Fighting? Ergo they are ligitmate targets in war.

gandalf

Horrific!!! No matter what those mens jobs were that was a horrible way to die and to see them dragged through the streets like that was a disgusting image.

The more frightening thing is the reaction of the general public there to these scenes. Its worrying that they seemed to revel in this so much. I think the US & UK are in for a very long and brutal haul in Iraq and its the poor troops, a majority of who are only there to try and get a free education afterwards because they cannot afford it who are paying the ultimate price with their blood.

Gandalf.

spanner

Originally posted by Havelock
Yes, its terrible, that these things where done to the bodies of the dead. But

A) It is war, this sort of thing happens in war, the invader is killed and people rejoice.

You can hardly say there is no reason for the Iraqi public not to have great hatered for the American's. Rember American sancions meant you couldn't get basic medical supplies into Iraq since first Persian Gulf war. Millions of innocent Iraqis where killed by this alone, not to mention indistriminate airstrikes on "military targets" and terrible blunders by the US Amry like the accidential straffing of school bus full of children etc. The is alot of hatered in Iraq for the American army.

C) If the contractors where Mercinaries, what were they doing there. Fighting? Ergo they are ligitmate targets in war.

i really cant agree with this anymore. i agree the war was not right and that america really had no right invading and understand why many countries in the arab world hate them. but whats done is done and there is no changing it. it seems to me iraqis are putting more effort into fighting americans than trying and rebuild their country. lets face it the americans cant wait to get out of there. all they want is a government in iraq which keeps supplying cheap oil to the west and doesnt give them to much trouble, like kuwait and as everyone knows kuwait has done well from this.
i posted a thread not too long ago can iraq support democracy well the answer is no its obvious they are still to bitter and twisted from sadam and the american-iranian wars to try build a future for themselves

sovtek

Originally posted by spanner
it seems to me iraqis are putting more effort into fighting americans than trying and rebuild their country.

I guess that's why they get pissed when all their potential jobs are contracted out to KBR.
Maybe that's a little bit of the ol' blame the victim?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by sovtek
I guess that's why they get pissed when all their potential jobs are contracted out to KBR.
Maybe that's a little bit of the ol' blame the victim?

I hope your not saying something similar there to saying in our case that we the Irish should bomb the states or the Eastern European countries for closing down factories here and opening up there

Commerce will be commerce, but theres no reason to blow people up over it.
That goes for the americans too, if it was the oil they were after.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by spanner
it seems to me iraqis are putting more effort into fighting americans than trying and rebuild their country.

Well seeing as it wasn't the Iraqi people themselves that bombed the hell out of everything in the first place, you can probably see why they're not too happy.

Exit

Originally posted by bonkey

Maybe I'm doing you a disservice, but your outrage seems to be more focussed on those who haven't commented on the act than on those who perpetrated it. With that in mind - the outrage itself would seem a bit hollow. You seem more outraged that people haven't been outraged by it happening than of the fact that it happened at all.

Not true. If you go back to my original post, you'll find that I used words such as "****ing disgusting" and "barbaric" to describe the killings, and "surprised" to describe the lack of outrage here. I know which words I'd view as stronger. Anyway, those words were an understatement to how I felt about seeing even the blurred images on the news, and just because I didn't put them in a post, it doesn't mean I didn't feel them.

Yes, it is something that wasn't unexpected to happen in these situations, but when it does happen, it's a shocking indictment of humanity.

My earlier analogy ("I bet if the Americans did this, there'd be complete outrage from everyone here) was poorly argued on my part. Of course the Americans would never resort to this (I hope! Nobody would have expected them to commit the My Lai [sp?] masascre either) but again I was surprised at the lack of any discussion on the issue. These acts are infinitely worse than any American killing of the same number of Iraqis, whether they be military targets or civilians. It's just humanity at it's absolute lowest.

Memnoch

I guess I'm getting desensitised to all the violence out there? Maybe that or after seeing xxxxxxx iraqi's killed for no reason other than more power and money for bush in america's "war OF terror" I just couldn't conjour up any sympathy for those people....

after thinking about it I came to the following conclusion...

1) Either these people are "civillian" contractors. These belong to companies that heavily invested in Dubya and put him in power. It is partly on their behalf that Bush has waged this war and destroyed iraqi infrastructure so it can hand out fat contracts to "friendly" (with the bush administration) american companies from Iraqi money spent by a puppet government installed by the americans. In this case it would seem to me that these people are atleast tacitly involved in the exploitation of Iraq for their own personal financial gain. This has caused the death of countless Iraqi civillians......They deserved death...

2) They were merceneries, dogs of war, hired for whatever purpose. As has been reported in "The Independant" they were carrying weapons. In which case they were combatants and combatants tend to die in wars.. so no sympathy there either.

the thing however that makes me think the most about this recent event is the reaction of the local populace to the killings. It is this that shows us that the people of Iraq do not view the American's as liberators or benefactors. It is their in built anger and resentment of the plunder and pillage that the american's have wrecked on their country. At least that is what their reaction seems to me to be. As the resistance grows stronger and wider, how much longer will people continue to trumpet their lines that the majority of attacks are by people loyal to the "old" regime and by Al-queda. Even US. troops admit that most of these attacks are actually from resistance fighters.

Lets look at what the US did to their country???

1) bombing of the water treatment plants during and after the gulf war (strategic military targets) that resulted in endemic diseases running rampant throughout Iraq, affecting mostly children.
2) Sanctions that worsened the effect of the bombs resulting in well over half a million Iraqi deaths.
3) A hostile invasion and the destruction of a large amount of Iraqi infrastructure.
4) Murder of countless civillians as "casualties of war" Atleast 10,000 killed estimated over 6 months ago.
5) Replacing the dictator saddam hussain with a "puppet" governemnt that is not interested any more than saddam was in the welfare of the Iraqi people, a governemnt kept in power and control by oppression of Iraqi people by the US armed forces.
6) Shutting down of newspapers that speak out against the American Invasion.
7) Several warcrimes committed by U.S. and British troops that go unmentioned in the mainstream media, for which they will never be prosecuted.

Now compare this to the incident we are talking about...

the killing, and mutilation of 4 American "contractors" by Iraqi's and tell me...

which of the two lists is the more horrific?

So in summary?

The people of Iraq are resisting an invasion, the pillage and plunder of their land. The american's fought a war of profit with an aim not just of removing saddam but of installing a puppet government to allow them to profit. In short to enslave the Iraqi people. The Iraqi people are rightfully fighting the enslavement with all their courage and my heart goes out to them. For any American that dies in Iraq, I have no sympathy (except journalists and people on a mission of mercy).

Memnoch

Originally posted by Earthman
But at least actions authorised by a U.S government are eventually subject to the scrutiny of a vote.
These guys in Iraq have no mandate to carry out their activities and aren't ultimately subject to the same rules.
Saying that their country was invaded is not a justification in my eyes.
It's not in Northern Ireland and it's not in Iraq.


Similarally if you are prepared to say that about, Iraqi attacks like this barbarous one without knowing the full story or having been there then you must apply the same logic to the U.S led occupying force.

The Iraqi's do have a mandate to carry out their activities. The mandate has been given to them by the U.S.'s illegal invasion and occupation of their country along with the murder of countless Iraqi civillians. This in my view gives the Iraqi's the right to do anything to defend and free their land from invaders that are looking to do nothing more than exploit...

and please DO NOT... DO NOT say that the American's were freeing Iraq of a brutal dictator.

As long as Saddam was playing along with their game, the American's were more than happy to have him in power. They supplied him with weapons, and weapons of mass destrcution, they taught him how to use them, and helped him use them. Hell they defended him on American News stations (Rice and Powell) as recently as january and june of 2001. So saying that the american's did this to get rid of a brutal regime is the biggest piece of hypocritical garbage i've ever heard, which makes me sick to the core.

woody

Those Iraqi's are Barbarians and would do the same to a Peace Keeping Force of the UN.

Which would you rather Sadam and Total Oppresion and Millions of Kurds and Sh'ites dying or Americans...Me the later...

Why were they armed to protect themselves....So a Safari in the Kruger National Park has weapons are they combatants...

War Crimes, let me see, the majority of this so called crimes are unproven anti-Ally propaganda. And I certain dont see any real evidence...


Those men who died had families, I myself now what it is like to have a loved one die in a foriegn country...

So they are Merc's or Dogs of War....If they are why should'nt they be there if they help defeat the enemy..

Those People who did that yesterday they should be damned to hell as that is the face of evil....WOULD you live with these people in or out of War...Imagine what they would do with you if you were a aid worker...remember they blew up the Red Cross...


Iraq should be split into three.... The Kurdish Sector and an Independant Kurdish State..The Central Sector for the Sunni's and the Southern Sector for the Sh'ites...

And all controlled like Berlin or West Germany in the Cold War...


Saddam had plenty of money to feed and provide for his people and so did the Baath Party Members...

The Iraqi peole the majority of still are very twisted and Barbaric and maybe need a little education in Civilisation and democracy, as otherwise the likes of the Taelban will take over and make the country a torn in the foot of the west...

I have no Sympathy for the Majority of Iraqi people as they dont need to fight, they could have had there country rebuilt by now and be living in peace and slowly having the Yanks withdrawing...Resistance no Murdering Yes.... They are cowards not gureilla's they bomb their own kill children....

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by woody
The Iraqi peole the majority of still are very twisted and Barbaric and maybe need a little education in Civilisation and democracy, as otherwise the likes of the Taelban will take over and make the country a torn in the foot of the west...

Does this education involve the people being bombed/shot into submission?
Also, the Taleban were not a thorn in anyone's side until after Sept. 11th.
The West/US were happy to let them do what they wanted to their own people as long as they kept the drug trade under control.
Do you put any value on non-Western life out of interest?

Redleslie

What I was wondering was whether the "operation", to use military parlance, was spontaneous or planned. It could be a tactic designed to rattle the US troops and *cough* civilian contractors psychologically. Morale is already rock bottom according to reports I've read.

Victor

Originally posted by woody
So they are Merc's or Dogs of War....If they are why should'nt they be there if they help defeat the enemy..

Them not being members of the regular armed forces of a nation would classify them as "illegal combatants" by Bush's definition (and we know what happens illegal combatants).

Memnoch

Originally posted by woody
Those Iraqi's are Barbarians and would do the same to a Peace Keeping Force of the UN.

I'm sorry, why are they barbarians? Do you realise how ancient you sound? Anytime a country invades another the declare the indigenous people to be barbarians that are "uncivilised". The British did it, throughout their empire, the australian settlers did the same on the australian continent, the american's did it to the native americans. Why are they barbarians? Because they speak a different language and practise a different religion than you? Just because the american's use sophisticated weapons to kill 1000s more doesn't make them any more civilised.

Which would you rather Sadam and Total Oppresion and Millions of Kurds and Sh'ites dying or Americans...Me the later...

I'll take secret option 3, a free iraq, not controlled by saddam, but not controlled by a puppet US government with the aim of enslaving and exploiting the iraqi people, all under the guise of "democracy". Again, don't make me repeat this pls... the american's were HAPPY to have Saddam's "total oppression" as long as he did what they wanted him to.. so you REALLY cannot use this whole "liberation" arguement. Has america's actions improved things in Iraq for the average Iraqi? NO it hasn't, and countless Iraqi's have been killed in the interim. If you want more proof look at afghanistan. The american's did their thing and moved on. But those now left in power in Afghanistan are no different from the Taliban, Afghan warlords armed by the US contunining Islaamic rule and oppression in the country. Oh wait, there is ONE thing different about them, they argeed to let the US build an oil pipline through the coutnry, as long as the US supplies them with weapons and money and allows them to conduct whatever burtalities they choose to inflict on the afghan people.

Why were they armed to protect themselves....So a Safari in the Kruger National Park has weapons are they combatants...

errr... sorry... where was the part about how these people have a right to be in Iraq, armed or otherwise? cause i missed that bit. They are there as part of an invading and occupying force

War Crimes, let me see, the majority of this so called crimes are unproven anti-Ally propaganda. And I certain dont see any real evidence...

hmm.. lets see, the "Allies" control the country militarily, they control and regulate the flow of information, where is the "real" evidence going to come on. You will obviously dismiss any "evidence" shown on arab media, off course that is compeltely biased while fox news is completely bi-partisan. I remember reading an article in the Independant, it was a story told by iraqi's about how they were oppressed and abused, US soldiers taking their posessions etc etc etc. What about the "accidental" killing of two iraqi journalists by American troops recently? Hmm, boy that camera looks like a gun, shoot him!!!!! i wonder what evidence these journalists would have presented had they lived?

Those men who died had families, I myself now what it is like to have a loved one die in a foriegn country...

Sure they had families, everyone has families, the 10,000+ iraqi's how died had families, the half a million Iraqi children that died had families. But last I checked, the Iraqi's weren't the ones invading, occupying and oppressing someone else's country.

So they are Merc's or Dogs of War....If they are why should'nt they be there if they help defeat the enemy..

who is the enemy again? If your going to say that the "iraqi's" are the enemy then you first have to prove that the american invasion was justified, which it wasn't. The american's invasion is wrong and illegal. Now sure you can say that they are helping defeat the enemies of the american occupying force and have a right to be there in that capacity. However if they are invaders, then they deserve to die.

Those People who did that yesterday they should be damned to hell as that is the face of evil....WOULD you live with these people in or out of War...Imagine what they would do with you if you were a aid worker...remember they blew up the Red Cross...

The face of evil is george bush and tony blair. Again pls refer to my previous post and compare the atrocities commited by the alies , I see how you CONVENIENTLY ignored my point about the murder of over half a million Iraqi children? I'd love to see you explain how they were barbarians that deserved to die? The Iraqi's don't want occupation, hence they are stricking out at all foreign targets that they can. I won't say that killing red cross people is right ( I already said in my previous post, that killing of reporters and people on a mission of mercy is wrong), but you seem to have the idea that the entire Iraqi resistance is lead by 1 leader or group whereas it is much more likely to be individual groups, banded together against the US out of frustration and desperation, the proof of this is in the way the civillians "celebrated" the death of the Amercan's.

Iraq should be split into three.... The Kurdish Sector and an Independant Kurdish State..The Central Sector for the Sunni's and the Southern Sector for the Sh'ites...

And all controlled like Berlin or West Germany in the Cold War...

ah, yes I can see now how you really have the best interests of the iraqi's at heart all along. divide and conquer yes? I think that the UK should be split in the Britain, Northern Ireland and Wales. Lets also give independence to the Basque seperatists in Spain, and while were at it, I know there are quite a few folks down in Texas who think that Texas should be an independant country....

Saddam had plenty of money to feed and provide for his people and so did the Baath Party Members...

No one is talking about what Saddam did/did not do. He was bad, horrible etc etc etc. no one is questioning that. That however does not justify the actions that the american's knowingly took, that resulted in the death of Iraqi children.

The Iraqi peole the majority of still are very twisted and Barbaric and maybe need a little education in Civilisation and democracy, as otherwise the likes of the Taelban will take over and make the country a torn in the foot of the west...

with this statement you make a final grand display of your ignorance. You want to bring democracy to Iraq like you did to afghanasthan right? GO take a look at what aghanistan is now, please... here i will do you a favor and help you open your eyes.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pilger_breaking_the_silence_35mb.htm

watch this video... and don't post until after you've seen it. you will hopefully be atleast a little educated then.

I have no Sympathy for the Majority of Iraqi people as they dont need to fight, they could have had there country rebuilt by now and be living in peace and slowly having the Yanks withdrawing...Resistance no Murdering Yes.... They are cowards not gureilla's they bomb their own kill children....

Again you lump all Iraqi's into one group. Which is typical of ignorant generalisations that are used to support wrong acts. By your line of logic NO COUNTRY should ever demand independence and peacefully submit to the benevolence of their rules. By your logic, we should all still be a part of one grand British empire spanning the globe. Seriously.. think about what you just said.

PiE

Originally posted by Redleslie
That'd be an awful strange resume for any regular civilian contractor to have.

They could just as easily have been:

http://blackwatersecurity.com/resumescrub.html
Tier 3. Description: Description: An operator with requirement-specific expertise in the skill sets identified below. Minimum of eight years experience in DoD, field operations/construction, or base support functions. Has a current DoD/DoE/DoS clearance or the ability to pass requirements for a SECRET clearance. Retired or released from active duty within the last twenty-four months, or has maintained their skills sets through other independent contracting opportunities. Beyond physical security support Blackwater is supporting remote forward operating base operations.
Field Generator Operations.
Field Fueling Operations.
Water System Operations.
Field Food Program Operations.
Field Sanitation Operations.
Field Construction Operations.

Either way, it's a fine old mess.

ChipZilla

Originally posted by woody
But maybe Israeli style tatics may work to restore Law and Order as Conventional troops such as Marines and Rangers are not suited...

Yeah right. Bulldozing the place to the ground and shooting kids - that's just what Iraq needs right now. And anyway, as was said on Pat Kenny this morning, we Irish have very short memories about killing people and dragging their bodies around the streets. Remember Michael Stone, the IRA funeral and the two army corporals who were killed by a mob in the aftermath? Less of the bleeding heart guff please.

The Allied Forces and their "contractors" reap what they sow.:rolleyes:

bonkey

Originally posted by woody
Those Iraqi's are Barbarians and would do the same to a Peace Keeping Force of the UN.

I'm glad you are such an expert on human psychology and are enlightening the rest of us.

I assume by "those Iraqis" you mean "those who carried out this act" and not "Iraqis in general", because the latter would border on a racist statement.

I mean - how would you feel if people started referring to "those barbarian Iraeli's" because they had an issue with the acts carried out by a small extremist faction of Israel's population?

Which would you rather Sadam and Total Oppresion and Millions of Kurds and Sh'ites dying or Americans...Me the later...

And if you ever have that choice, then I hope you make it that way. However, you are talking about your choice, not theirs, so its hardly relevant to the discussion at hand unless you too have been living under a brutal dictator and have been "recused" by an occupying force who have promised you better things but not produced many of them yet.

No?

Why were they armed to protect themselves

Who? The Iraqi's? One reason would be that the decrease in security unfortunately resultant from the war has made personal security a matter of luck, or being armed.

Those People who did that yesterday they should be damned to hell as that is the face of evil

We are talking about the killing citizens of a nation who took action against people who were brought in to that country by an occupying force to consult on issues of secrity.

If they had just been cleanly killed, it would have been a justifiable act of resistance against an occupying power.

But I do agree that the defilement of the dead makes it an abhorrent act (I tend to try and not use the term "evil" because I find it a bit simplistic).

....WOULD you live with these people in or out of War...

Imagine what they would do with you if you were a aid worker...remember they blew up the Red Cross...

Who? The exact same people as killed the four people yesterday?

I'm beginning to think that "these people" is Iraqi's in general, and not just the perpetrators of this act....

Well, if so....ask yourself this. Would you liberate these people? If you are so set against them, why do you support their continued liberation? Remember - you think they're pure evil.

Iraq should be split into three.... The Kurdish Sector and an Independant Kurdish State..

Which will cause massive upsets with a certain nation to the North of Iraq that the US already have an agreement with that they will not create a Kurdish state.

Also bear in mind that any fair partitioning would result in the Northern oilfields being ceded to the Kurds, which would really enable them to start financing the Kurds in southern Turkey to agitate further for their own independance.

And an unfair partitioning which keeps the oil out of Kurdish hands will only lead to more war and destruction between the Kurds and whoever the oil is handed to.....

As for the Sunni's and Shi'ites....you'd again have problems with the oil-fields. You would have potential problems with Iran. You would have potential problems between the three nations you suggest creating.

But don't let these trivial problems stop your great plan. I'm sure introducing more instability in the region is a great plan....I just can't figure out why at the moment.

The Iraqi peole the majority of still are very twisted and Barbaric and maybe need a little education in Civilisation and democracy, as otherwise the likes of the Taelban will take over and make the country a torn in the foot of the west...

Right. So it is the entire people you're tarring with the same brush.

Coming from someone who constantly seems to interpret criticism of any Israeli action as anti-semitism, though, thats hardly surprising. At least you're consistently failing to see the difference between the acts of a small group, and the population in its entirety.

I have no Sympathy for the Majority of Iraqi people

Of course you don't. You think they're barbaric, lacking in civilisation. You wouldn't want them as your neighbours, and generally seem to tar them all with the same brush.

I'd be astounded if you said you had sympathy for them.

as they dont need to fight, they could have had there country rebuilt by now and be living in peace and slowly having the Yanks withdrawing...

Firstly, the majority of Iraqi's are not fighting, are having their country rebuilt, and are trying to live in peace. Again, you seem to be taking the actions of a few, and attributing it to the many.

You know what you'd be calling it if we were discussing actions by some extremist Israeli minority and not an Iraqi one, and someone generalised about the entire Israeli people based on what we were discussing????
Anti-what????

I cannot believe that in the space of a week, you have been decrying others for such unfair generalisations against your own people, and then appear to have no compunction whatsoever about making similar - if not more damning - comments about the people of another nation.

But getting back to the point....could the minority who
you choose to tar as the majority also do these things?

Sure they could. If they believed that the Yanks would slowly withdraw, not instill a puppet government, etc. etc. etc.

In case you've missed it, the big problem there is that they don't trust the Americans, and whether you think they should or not doesn't matter a toss. They don't trust them.

So, if we consider it from the perspective of those who oppose the occupation , your statement becomes "they could be living in peace, rebuilding their country, and watching the Americans slowly take control of everything they want".

Yeah. I can see that being a really strong argument to use against them.

jc

Havelock

Originally posted by bonkey

But don't let these trivial problems stop your great plan. I'm sure introducing more instability in the region is a great plan....I just can't figure out why at the moment.
[/B]

Obviously to keep an US "Peacekeeping" Force in the Eastern Oil fields, I mean Middle East, whoops.

spanner

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Well seeing as it wasn't the Iraqi people themselves that bombed the hell out of everything in the first place, you can probably see why they're not too happy.

this synical attiude is all well and good we know the americans have never covered themselves in glory but iraqis must now face it: whats done is done it can not be changed, they can ethier work with the americans and try build a nation were they can live in some from of relative peace or continue down the path they have seemed to have chose of fighting americans and all attempts to reconstruct, ultimely self destruction

Sparks

Yes, it was horriffic to watch, and I'd hate to think what effect it must have on the families of those four men, but to say that it's an inhuman act is a bit far to go - how many years has it been since two police officers were dragged from their car and kicked to death in Belfast? How many since black people were lynched and strung up from whatever was handy in the southern US?

And a more interesting question from a technical point of view is whether or not mutilating a corpse is worse than killing that person in the first place.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by spanner
this synical attiude is all well and good we know the americans have never covered themselves in glory but iraqis must now face it: whats done is done it can not be changed

Ok. So the same can be applied elsewhere too I assume.
Next time the Americans talk about Septemeber 11th should people just say "these things happen get over it" or if the holocaust is brought up should Jewish people be told "that was ages ago, forget about it"?
You can hardly expect all Iraqis to either be happy with the current situation, or else for them just to grin and bare it.
How would you react if half of this country was levelled by a foreign army and then we're all told to shut up and get rebuilding if there was any objections raised (in any form, violent or otherwise)?

spanner

Originally posted by woody
Those Iraqi's are Barbarians and would do the same to a Peace Keeping Force of the UN.


Those People who did that yesterday they should be damned to hell as that is the face of evil....WOULD you live with these people in or out of War...Imagine what they would do with you if you were a aid worker...remember they blew up the Red Cross...

The Iraqi peole the majority of still are very twisted and Barbaric and maybe need a little education in Civilisation and democracy, as otherwise the likes of the Taelban will take over and make the country a torn in the foot of the west...

I have no Sympathy for the Majority of Iraqi people as they dont need to fight, they could have had there country rebuilt by now and be living in peace and slowly having the Yanks withdrawing...Resistance no Murdering Yes.... They are cowards not gureilla's they bomb their own kill children....

here here

i agree with you totally. like most arab countries they cannot hold a normal civilized society. they need the likes of sadam to keep them in check. the americans really made a bad move invading them, no amount of oil is worth the sh*t storm they have created for themselves. as far as the iraqis goes they have a choice to work with the regime to build a better life, or to choose not more violence, they have choosen the latter well as far as i am concerned they can burn in the fire they have lit.

Memnoch

Originally posted by spanner
here here

i agree with you totally. like most arab countries they cannot hold a normal civilized society. they need the likes of sadam to keep them in check. the americans really made a bad move invading them, no amount of oil is worth the sh*t storm they have created for themselves. as far as the iraqis goes they have a choice to work with the regime to build a better life, or to choose not more violence, they have choosen the latter well as far as i am concerned they can burn in the fire they have lit.

as yes off course. A Normal Civilized society... the US for example where school kids run in and shoot each other with automatic rifles for fun...

What better life?

Answer me one simple question... should Ireland have agreed to stay as a county of england to build a better life under the british regime rather than trying to resist the occupation?

I really didn't realise people could be so ignorant of even the most basic of human principles

spanner

Originally posted by Memnoch

Answer me one simple question... should Ireland have agreed to stay as a county of england to build a better life under the british regime rather than trying to resist the occupation?

with all the glory of 1916 and amazing guerilla war which brought the english to its knees by the heroic micheal collins, at the end of the day with all their bloodshed we ended up with something around about the same as home rulers were fighting for and just about to get us.

two much people glorify violence as the solution, no one is denying great wrong was done to the iraqis but is continuing violence going to write this?

bonkey

Originally posted by spanner
whats done is done it can not be changed,

Its not the past they're trying to shape.

...or continue down the path they have seemed to have chose of fighting americans and all attempts to reconstruct, ultimely self destruction

self-destruction?

Why? What possible reason do they have to think that.

Lets see.....

/me checks map.

Nope - Vietnam is still there. So is North Korea. There's people in them too.

Oh, Somalia is still there as well.

And don't you find it at least coincidental that this latest atrocity is almost a carbon-copy of the images which were broadcast around the world from Mogadishu (and which inspired Black Hawk Down)? The act that was, in Somalia, highly relevant in making the US decide it was time to go home?

Self-destruction? Hardly.

This has all the hallmarks of someone willing to basically "out-bloody" what they perceive as the enemy. If they can't force the US out by force of arms, body-count, attrition, or any other means....which I believe they can't....then they will do it by repulsing them out - make them lose their stomachs through atrocities such as yesterday's.

jc

spanner

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Ok. So the same can be applied elsewhere too I assume.
Next time the Americans talk about Septemeber 11th should people just say "these things happen get over it" or if the holocaust is brought up should Jewish people be told "that was ages ago, forget about it"?
You can hardly expect all Iraqis to either be happy with the current situation, or else for them just to grin and bare it.
How would you react if half of this country was levelled by a foreign army and then we're all told to shut up and get rebuilding if there was any objections raised (in any form, violent or otherwise)?

these comparsions are unfair, the iraq situation i completely uniqe and i dont think its right trying to draw comparsions with other situations to justify an agruement

bonkey

Originally posted by spanner
like most arab countries they cannot hold a normal civilized society.

History would beg to differ.

But don't let that stop you making such racist remarks.....

jc

sovtek

Originally posted by spanner
i agree with you totally. like most arab countries they cannot hold a normal civilized society.

Actually an Arab country is supposedly the begining of civilization.
That assertion also forgets the fractured nature of the Middle East is due largely to the British empire and the American one since WW2.

bonkey

Originally posted by spanner
the iraq situation i completely uniqe and i dont think its right trying to draw comparsions with other situations to justify an agruement

So thats why you said they were like other arab nations.

Because they're unique, and shouldn't be compared to other situations!!!

Maybe I should stop posting - you seem to be doing a good enough tearing your own arguments apart by contradicting yourself as it is.

jc

spanner

Originally posted by bonkey
Its not the past they're trying to shape.

Self-destruction? Hardly.

This has all the hallmarks of someone willing to basically "out-bloody" what they perceive as the enemy. If they can't force the US out by force of arms, body-count, attrition, or any other means....which I believe they can't....then they will do it by repulsing them out - make them lose their stomachs through atrocities such as yesterday's.

jc

well what you said here i think proves my that it is self destruction, by "out-blooding" the americans are just going to act harsher and harsher on the iraqis. belive it or not the average american soldier and citizen in general sincerely belive they are helping the iraqis(i know they have a funny way of showing it) and are not going to treat the civilian population harsh unless they get treated hard themselves,

woody

How is his remarks Racist this is a great Word you use Bonkey..

The Fact is the large majority of Arab Regimes are both Brutal and Oppresive to their own people and forigeners who work there...ie.. Saudi, Kuwait, Yemen,Oman,Iran,Pakistan,Syria and Algeria just to name a few...

These countries are Barbaric... they use Islam to Decapitate People who commit crimes, Cut hands off in the Name of Islam, Stone Women and Men Adulters to death... Have brutal torture techniques used on the average Joe soap to an "InFidel"

Iraq is no different.... And Yes a lot of people have died there "Iraqi's" but alas by the hand of their own more so...

If a comment is made about Arabs or Islam it is percived as Racist but the fact remains that both the culture and religion is based not on Love or even Fairness but Brutality...There is many sites that explain the Koran from an impartial point of view and it is based on Women having little or no rights, Killing of Non-Belivers of Islam and total brutality....Have a look for them read it then read the Actual Koran and then tell me I am racist....

Spanner I agree with your arguement in total...

And Lets not all forget the Fact these men are still dead and badly mutilated...

And the Comparsion of the North and the Two Corporals taken from the Car after the Members of the Gibraltar IRA Bombing Team were killed is very tame compared to yesterday and I do agree it was brutal aswell..but not to yesterdays extent...

Barbarity is not confined to the Arab but they seem in Iraq to enjoy it...

Originally posted by Memnoch
The Iraqi's do have a mandate to carry out their activities.

I'm sorry but unless you can show me where the people who carried out that atrocity will be going back to the people of Iraq looking for votes/mandate based on it, then you have no basis whatsoever for that statement.
You would also have to prove to me that there was no AlQueda/non Iraqi involvement-can you do this?
Because I can certainly prove to you without question that Bush is going to his people looking for a mandate and the WAR on Terror as he likes to call it is top of his manifesto.