LGB Rights and Activism in this Country

yellum

Do people think that gay people are politically active in this country for gay rights ?

Do you care about Gay Rights ?

When David Norris retires who is going to champion gay rights ?

( Remember kids if it wasn't for David, homosexuality might still be illegal. He went to EU courts to have that stupid law revoked. )

Do you think enough is being done or should we be content with what we have right now ?

If there was an activist group would you take part ?

dr_manhattan

>Do people think that gay people are politically active in
>this country for gay rights ?

Not hugely, no: but i'm not sure if it's entirely gay people's responsibility. I have very strong views about sexuality and one of them is that what's defined as "straight" should not have the lazy status it currently has. What I mean is, maybe straight people should be doing more about gay rights, if you get me...


>Do you care about Gay Rights ?
Very much so, yes.


>When David Norris retires who is going to champion gay >rights ?
That's what's known as a good point, yellum. Much as I would like to flippantly cry "david will never retire". I don't have an answer: you and me, yellum? ;-)


>Do you think enough is being done or should we be
>content with what we have right now ?


If "we" means irish people, then no, I don't think enough is being done, and I don't think we should be content.

If "we" means gay people, then ditto: but I think it's important to note that when gay activists improve things "for gay people" they also improve straight peoples' quality of life hugely, too (hence my answer to the first question) and enable a generally more relaxed social environment.

I think it's time us breeders felt pressure to act. I think I posted here before that it's less than ten years since I decided I'm pretty much straight (still feels wierd to say) and I don't think I'm exempt from any social activism just because of where I've decided to put my penis on a regular basis: however, I'm not one of these straight guys who wants to be a part fo everything, and whinges if I'm not wanted ;-)

If activism means "gay only" then I'll just wave a flag from the side of the street, occasionally pausing for a demure whoop.

>If there was an activist group would you take part ?
Absolutely: would I be welcome?

yellum

The reason I talk about activism is that there is a long way to go for equality.

There should be some goals to allow homosexuality to become a non-issue in every part of life.

Some things that should be lobbied for are:

1) Education and awareness in schools:

Education of teens on sex and sexuality. Since the average age of coming out is now 15-16 , educating teens about the issues of sexuality is very important. Right now I believe many gay organisations have been trying to push for this in schools but are not allowed. Heterosexual sex is allowed to be discussed in schools but every other sexuality is not on the agenda.

Its not just educating gay teens, its educating everyone. The more education the better as it will help kill ignorance which is a cause of:

2) Homophobia and bullying.

Until gay people feel safe walking down the street while holding hands with their partner I don't think activism should be overlooked. I would like to see the gay community being more integrated with the rest of the community. While some of it is self-enforced segregation a lot of it is out of fear of getting the crap kicked out of you if kiss your same-sex partner in a pub/club.

I'd like to see the day when there are no gay pubs and clubs and everyone is free to be themselves in any pub.

3) Postive Gay Role models.

They don't need to be media stars, or something like this. They should be as ordinary as possible. It'd be nice to see gay people in long-term relationships in the public eye more. I'm sure theres a small little nagging in the back of some gay peoples minds that says "ah sure its ok if you are not commited, its not like we can marry anyway so don't treat this relationship with all the respect it needs" It'd be nice to see more gay doctors, accountants, lawyers etc.

The only gay people in the public eye seem to be hairdressers and retail assistants. There is nothing wrong with these professions but I think we need more from other professions.

4) Gay Marriage / Civil unions

This just comes down to one word "equality". Everyone is entitled to the same rights no matter what their sex and sexuality.


So what can we do about this ? Myself and Yoda have been trying to make contact with the NLGF (National Lesbian and Gay Federation) and GLEN (Gay and Lesbian Equality Network) , two groups I had never heard of after many months of looking about. They do not appear to be high profile and do not have websites.

I do think some sort of website with forums is needed where activism can be discussed and collaborated on more and information is shared.

If this is meant to be a national organisation or countrywide push for activism a website is the surest way to get people motivated.

I'd like to hear other peoples ideas on this.

Heres a thought for people. If David Norris retires and fecks off to some South American country and the government introduce some discriminatory law against homosexuality, whos going to speak up on your behalf ?

Yoda

I think the emphasis should be different. Some things are more urgent than others.

1) Gay marriage/civil unions
This affects the lives and livelihoods of people; it is based on a fundamental question: "Are all of Ireland's citizens equal before the law?" These are the rights of gay people themselves. Decriminalization was the first of the rights won on the road to full equality. Indeed, if this right is granted it will help much of the rest follow. If the state recognizes equality, so must everyone else, eventually.

2) Education and awareness in schools
Television and cinema are doing some good here already. It may not be the same thing as having it on the curriculum, but even in Ireland a LOT more information is available to young people than was 20 or even 10 years ago.

3) Homophobia and bullying
In part this is an education issue; in part there must be strong legislation and enforcement against discrimination. I wouldn't like to downplay this. I don't know what to say about walking down the street while holding hands with one's partner. The Pride parade is supposed to be one way of tackling this. I suppose.

4) Positive gay role models
Look in a mirror.

Boston

Originally posted by Yoda

2) Education and awareness in schools
Television and cinema are doing some good here already. It may not be the same thing as having it on the curriculum, but even in Ireland a LOT more information is available to young people than was 20 or even 10 years ago.

Are you serious? If by awareness you mean spread ignorance then I can see where you're coming from. Television and cinema spread a really fuked up message of sexuality and off tolerance or sexuality. Sorry but is somebody else's sexuality something that requires tolerance? Acceptance that its none of your business would be better then the view that it some how is, but that's ok because your sort comings can be over looked.

But I digress, do you actually think a school is a good environment for exploring these issues? In school you are not yourself, you're a some form of yes sir no sir Muppet with no character of yourself, you accept what ever the Muppet at the top of the class has to say which is often some deeply fuked up point of view. Teacher have neither the ability or the right to teach the youth about sexuality, often students have a more mature approach to their sexuality then the older generation. The though of my religion teacher teaching me about sexuality, who he himself has tired it on with several underage females I know, just makes me sick to the stomach. You can't teach acceptance, Understanding and awareness cannot be forced upon those that do no wish to have it, and a school is an environment where you suppress who you actually are in an attempt to just get by. As for education, educate about what precisely?

Yoda

I didn't mean much more than it's a whole lot easier for a young person to have access to get some sort of positive word about being gay than it was 25 years ago. Kids then had much less access to information about being gay then kids do now.

Maybe it's true that the media screw up straight people even more with the persistant happily-ever-after myths, but that wasn't my point.

My point was that of the activism topics, it's the marriage rights that are the most important, and indeed, the ones for which a group might be able to have some actual influence.

If civil unions or marriage become part of Irish law and society, wouldn't come up in whatever passes for a civics class in Irish education?

Boston

civics' is a subject for the junior cert, my year where one of the first to sit the exam. One of the things I noticed about civics was it was very obvious they where trying to manipulate our young minds and use it as a tool for their own aims. Stuff like love travelers, aren't fianna foil great, love the immigrant. Very very PC stuff with its own agenda. It wasn't very effected as no likes to be manipulated like that. I don't know how beneficial it would be for LGB rights to be discussed in the above context. Might establish the view point that LGB Rights aren't something that should concern you unless you're gay.

Yoda

Fine. My point that the school curriculum isn't the highest priority stands.

Boston

I don't deagree with that, I degree with the fact its a priority at all

yellum

Originally posted by Boston
Sorry but is somebody else's sexuality something that requires tolerance?

People and what they are requires tolerance from others. Intolerance and ignorance results in Bullying and homophobia. The fact that in a recent study of school kids in NI showed an astonishing high figure of gay students experienced bullying and threats as a result of their sexuality proves that people should be required to be tolerant. You are right that it shouldn't be anyones business and that in a way is tolerance as the intolerant make it their business.

But I digress, do you actually think a school is a good environment for exploring these issues?

Its a place of learning. Its meant to nourish young minds and open up young minds and to get kids thinking and forming their own opinions. Its one of the best places in an ideal world.

Teacher have neither the ability or the right to teach the youth about sexuality

Some do have the ability, some don't. The fact that there is already sex ed. in most schools means that it should be inclusive to all sexualities not just heterosexuality. I don't mind if sexuality was not discussed at all if its better than having teachers go "homosexuality is wrong and jesus says you'll burn in hell". The fact that up to 10% of the population is gay means it should be catered for in the curriculum if heterosexuality is there.

You can't teach acceptance

I'd disagree. You can teach about what acceptance is, you can teach the ideals of accetance, you cannot force acceptance though.

and a school is an environment where you suppress who you actually are in an attempt to just get by.


Jesus. Have schools changed that much since I left ?

Boston

Isn't aiming for merely tolerance selling yourselves short? I mean just because someone tolerates you doesn't mean they are enlighten. Tolerance doesn't nessacerally equate to acceptance and a well balanced view point. Tolerance,and this is my point of view, is a cop out and the only thing it allows is for certain view point to take root and grow un challenged. People will tolerate you, but I think you will find there is always a "but".

School maybe a place of learning, but no about yourself. I've learnt more about myself and other people in one year of college then I ever did in school. School is a strict and disciplined environment with boundaries and social hierarchy. tbh I did learn about people and there imperfections in school, but it wasn't something I was "thought".

As for sex ed, its a joke. Full of high minded ideals but in the end its practically useless. We where thought nothing about relationships or sexuality purely dealt with the physical element of things, in a very code and unnatural way, and at that didn't deal what so ever with the opposite gender. However we did have a teacher who tried to impose his own view of sexuality on us. I'm not going to get into it as some people here know me in Real life, but as a result of this teacher a close friend of mind had break down and nearly killed himself. Sexuality is to an emotive issue to be dealt with in a subjective and detached way. You take about acceptance, but what is acceptance to you?

Originally posted by yellum
Jesus. Have schools changed that much since I left ?

You can quiet easly go through 6 years of school having never made a descision for yourself, and as for being yourself in school yea right afew of my friends knew they where bi long before finishing up school, they also knew to keep quiet about it.

Yoda

Right, so I guess activism with regard to the school curriculum is a bit of a non-starter. Back to the top of the thread.

dr_manhattan

As regards school sex ed, I think it's a bit daft to discuss the idea of changing sex ed in schools by saying "sex ed doesn't work, it's pointless"

This is akin to:

"maths is being taught poorly"
"so let's improve how it's done"
"No, it's taught by idiots in really bad ways, it'll never work"

Fact is that, if sex ed were to change, then it would no longer be imparted by idiots in classes that don't work. If schools were to *change*, then they wouldn't resemble our experiences of school, because they would have changed.

A school leaver in 1945 could have said the same thing about any number of subjects, from biology to physics. Apathy and a will to point out what's ****ed instead of what can be improved will never help anyone.

Fact is that most of the messages given out in school about sexuality are off piste: not a part of the curriculum at all. Negativity is delivered by students and reinforced by dumb teachers, who can't resist making limp wrist gestures or anide remarks about sex changes when discussing any aspect of masculinity and/or physical prowess.

So changing these messages is a challenge, but not impossible.

Next the idea of words like "tolerance" as opposed to / combined with "acceptance" - well, tbh this is not something I think is worthy of discussion, because semantics is pretty much bull**** when you're talking about these kind of issues. Whether you say "tolerance", "acceptance" or whatever, what you're talking about is a general ability to feel equal to someone else, regardless of how well you understand them, or indeed like them.

And this requires genuine abilities to empathise with other people that are sadly lacking right now in the world. Conventional methods of "getting the message across" tend to fail in an atmosphere where PC-ness only ensured that people use the right terms to slag off people they hate.

So use the term "acceptance", "tolerance", whatever, just make sure that the understanding, rather than the word, is the point.

Anyways, Yoda, to step up to your list:

1) Gay marriage/civil unions

Pretty much up there, yep. Can't argue with that one. Along with the acceptance of marriage comes an underlying acceptance of equality that is currently missing. The sort of pseudo-value attached to gay relationships has to disappear: but this is not a simple process.

Both the straight and gay communities have become comfortable with a set of values that were only really a temporary measure: the initial acceptance period for our somewhat bigoted society to genuinely accpet homosexuality should have ended in the late 1980s, IMHO, and we should have moved on a long ways since then. TInstead things have slowed a lot.

But we have to remember that this is not acceptable: We are talking about a situation which denied a significant portion of the world happiness, legitimacy and often their life. A monstrous section of our history, akin to a holocaust. And yet people are not so concerned....

2) Education and awareness in schools

though I disagree with Boston's negativity here, I do believe that soemthing very new is required here: and I think this may require it's own thread. I personally feel that the intolerance generated in a lot of schools is endemic to the education system, and almost seeps from the very mortar of these institutions.

Competitiveness, physical prowess, and masculinity need to be separated from the ability to **** women, for example. Stereotypes need to stop ebing used as the blueprints for healthy development. Divergence from a norm should be rewarded as of parallel merit with conformity.

Because we have created an oversexed, overmarketed, overdriven society, and to expect them to learn about it, and have any chance of happiness, through a relic of the past 100 years, a school system more modelled on the fuycking army than anything else, is just insane.

I would, nonetheless, give this high priority.

3) Homophobia and bullying

This is a tricky one: as you say, this is a twin problem of education (see above) and legislation. I am personally very legislation-phobic (lol) in this area, as bigots will always find a way: if it's not a crime to hate, they hate as if it's legitimate, and decry all who oppose them. If it is a crime to hate, they will make it into a conspiracy against their old, established ("natural", anyone?) order.

So it's hard that way. I mean, making a law against discrimination tomorrow will not make same sex couples immediately comfortable to walk down the street holding hands. A lot of the problem for this lies squarely at the feet of the straight community, and further than that, with the very myths of sexuality themselves: but do we have to force straight people to think using laws? Is that the best way?

no real answers here....

4) Positive gay role models

True dat. But also, and perhaps more importantly as there are more of them in circulation, positive *straight* role models. There are a million trillion examples of how this works, but I guess one of the worst offenders in the media would be the HipHop community.

A vast gulf in understanding between two communities in the US has led to outrageously homophobic posturing becoming acceptable: it has also led to a music business in which the closet is waaaaaaay deep and has *many* members who refuse to out themselves for fear of record loss. It often annoys me that whilst these people are often called on to be better role models for young african americans, very few people have seriously tackled them on the homophobia issue.

Except "gay rights campaigners"

Because of course, another problem with role models is that, as soon as they talk sense, they become a "gay rights campaigner", thus labelling them "extreme" and placing everything they say into the box of "well of course they'd say that - they're gay rights campaigners" - as if wanting to be treated fairly is some kind of vested interest...?

In the same way people who talk sense get shunted from "documentary maker" to "left wing pundit and documentary maker"

However those who reinforce myths that are essentially conservative (like for example the idea that homosexuality is a recent development, or "abnormality") are free to remain as they are.

So in the area of creating role models, we need to tread this minefield carefully, or all efforts lead to naught...

Anyways, gotte run, still on a deadline of sorts.

Be interested to hear back

Yoda

Well said, Dr Manhattan. I think that any activism group that grows out of this discussion should be concerned with "equal rights" and not with "gay rights".

yellum

Well getting gay rights is getting equal rights

yellum

Some stuff on equality:

UCD Equality Centre

UCD Equality Centre mailing list: http://listserv.heanet.ie/equal-l.html


Some stuff on Gay and Lesbian issues in Schools:

http://www.schoolingsexualities.ie - Research into the experience of gay and lesbian pupils as a minority group in Irish schools and the development of related policies and codes of practice.

Gender equality in Schools

Creating Safe Schools for Lesbian and Gay Students (American Document but still valid)

dr_manhattan

Before I chaeck any of the above links I've a few minutes free som I'll drop another unstructured rant, haha:

Yellum, you're totally right, "gay rights" is about gay people becoming equal - but my emphasis on "equality" is simply my best way of indicating that, IMHO, straight people have a lot of work to do in this regard.

I look at it this way: in any situation that is difficult or prejudiced, both sides have to modify their views: and generally the pressure is brought to bear more on the majority side to change, as they are percieved (often correctly IMHO) to have the greater space in which to adjust.

But this doesn't seem to be the case with gay rights: as I mentioned above, society has settled for this 1970s stonewall era set up, whereby sexual diversity is "tolerated", but not really seen as equal. Although we see much greater levels of pesudo-acceptance, the situation is trapped in misconception and myth, which keeps things very unequal.

A parallel situation would be the move for equality by african americans: often the practise of tekenism leads to intense focus on who gets a 'black oscar' or how much screen time black people have on network TV. This of course conveniently ignores that black people, even during slavery, were always considered suitable for entertainment: it was the question of integration that was the issue.

And the same applies here: no matter how progressive gay characters in entertainment may be (and, to be honest, I can't think of a single non-one-dimensional gay TV charcater, except perhaps Peter Krause's six feet under character), we are talking about much more than token acceptance.

And this is because of the nature of "the beast" - sexuality. It's easy to talk about equality and the ability to say "I'm gay" and be proud: but until straight people are making the same declaration, and realising that a passive "I'm like other normal people" attitude to sexuality is not only unhealthy, it can cause serious problems. Until Straight people are actively thinking for themselves about difficult, personal choices i don't think it's really equality at all - it's just a mainstream tolerating a deviancy. And that can never be good. Marginalising people is never good.

Jumping from the relatively abstract to the concrete, I'd like to continue discussing the education issue: because the only way to shape the future is in the educational ideas of the here and now.

I think the education question breaks down further:

1) first and foremost, we need schools to be safe for sexual growth. It is a shocking pity that those days in which we have the most capacity to absorb information and learn about ourselves are spent defending ourselves against childish attacks: and I'm not talking about just from students, either. My recollection of teachers in irish schools is that one of their favourite tools for humiliating kids is to play on their effeminacy and/or sexuality. This has got to stop. And it's got to stop for everyone:

There is a need for "straight" people to understand that this is not just about "pandering" to some liberal agenda and making gay people feel safe. It's about making straight people feel safe too, because most straight hostility (most hostility, period, some people might argue) is borne out of a percieved threat to their identity. Insecurity. Fear.

So we've got to have schools where it's okay to say what you want. We want gay *and* straight people *and* everyone to be able to stand up and say "I like it up the ass" without fear ;-) - somewhat meloframatically put, but true, no?

2) in order to further enable 1), we need to devise methods of teaching that no longer use archetypes or cartoonish examples to facilitate our learning: not that Dick and Jane have to go, but that there have to be many, many stories from which we learn, and some of those will be Jane and Jane, and some of those will be dick and dick ;-).

But it goes further than this: losing archetypes means a full realisation that the boundaries within curricula (for example where politics end and biology begins, where art ends and military history begins) are going to have to blur. Instead of constructing an unreal, kid-friendly world made of easily identifiable areas, we are going to have to use the real world, with all it's ambiguities, to teach with.

Because teaching using archetypes and black-and-white examples makes learning faster and easier: but in the process it degrades the value of *what we learn*. What good is it learning that all the world is full of good people, when you have to grow up and realise it's not? What's the good in learning how economics work, but when you go into the real world it's part economics, part corruption, part lies.... What good is it learning that people are straight except for some people who are gay when *you* are the one that is gay?

So, as a society, we simply need to start making up for the shortcuts we've been getting away with so far. We need to realise that growing up in an environment where boys marry girls, have stable jobs and children, is less and less use the less and less that actually happens: that we are actiovely encouraging kids to be bitterly diappointed with the world...

now I've no time for 3) and 4). Have to get back to this...

naturally, the above points are somewhat ranty and may just repeat themselves... anyone got any feedback? I'm off to (gasp) work...

Boston

Originally posted by yellum
Some stuff on equality:

UCD Equality Centre

UCD Equality Centre mailing list: http://listserv.heanet.ie/equal-l.html


Some stuff on Gay and Lesbian issues in Schools:

http://www.schoolingsexualities.ie - Research into the experience of gay and lesbian pupils as a minority group in Irish schools and the development of related policies and codes of practice.

Gender equality in Schools

Creating Safe Schools for Lesbian and Gay Students (American Document but still valid)

Yellum I started to read through some of those links but stoped after things like mission statement. This is exactly the type of thing the people you want to have care about, don't. Whats your opinion on them, how effective do you think these thigns might be.

dr_manhattan your approach to the issue seem to be the suggest extreme changes in soicety and social structure. Some people like how things are as regaurds most of what you say. Some, of which I'm one, would stress that school is not the place for that kind of life experience. You say everyone should be free to expess there sexual preferances in school, but i say what has sexual preferrences got to do with learning maths or english or what ever, these are the things the schools are actually ment to be there for, and personally I resented my time being wasted in school listenign to a load of PC crap, about topics of which I cared nothing.

dr_manhattan

First off, boston, you don't seem to be reading what I'm writing: I actually spoke about what has to *disappear* from schools. What has to *go*. I never said anything "PC" had to be talked about.

I did not suggest one single lesson plan, set of rules or guidelines or anything: I simply said certain things have to change: and I covered things that I think must be removed, not added.

because, you see, you may think that school is no place for sexual development, but you see, like it or not, school already *is*. Human beings develop sexually between 10 and 20. This time is spent in school, absorbing (currently) the overbearingly heterosexually biased instructions of teachers, peers, and the state.

So you see, all I'm suggesting doing is changing school from a hetero brainwashing facility into a non-denominational one. Instead of it being an atmosphere where people are too scared to speak about anything except pussy, I want school to be a place to talk about pussy, dick, whatever - and feel equal.

All I have said is that schools have to change in order that people, when they are at school, do not feel afraid to be what they are. Now, you seem to have interpreted this as meaning that people should have sex in school:

Some, of which I'm one, would stress that school is not the place for that kind of life experience.

I am not talking about *having* life experiences at school, I am talking about not being intimidated in school. I am talking about schools not enforcing some idea that weak=pansy=gay=loser, whilst strong=cool=straight=success. I'm talking about being free to be yourself in school without being intimidated for it.

I'm talking about, if you kiss your best mate, you might have to endure slagging for it, but no more than if he was a girl.

Why is school the wrong place for this? Should it start later then? When should we start trying to change things?

You say everyone should be free to expess there sexual preferances in school

If by "express their sexual preferences" you mean, say what they are, then yes, they should. Why should they not be? Why should saying that you're gay be a problem in school?

And if it should be, then where shuld it not be a problem?

but i say what has sexual preferrences got to do with learning maths or english or what ever, these are the things the schools are actually ment to be there for,

Funny that, cos I bet when you were *in* school, you probably said "what the hell has english, maths etc. got to do with real life?"

Schools *used* to be for pure academia. Now they are not: you obviously have a problem with that, some kidn of resentment of your old school. My apologies.

If you think that school is for teaching maths and english and nothing else, then why are you even interested in a thread about sexual development? You obviously reckon it's fine for school to take no interest in anything except the subjects that are being studied.

Fact is, my workplace is about producing software, not expressing sexuality. So is it okay that someone should feel sacred here to say they're gay?

There are no institutions, except perhaps bars, nightclubs and brothels, that *are* about expressing sexuality. So whay are there anti discrimination laws? Because everyone is fine with this?

dr_manhattan your approach to the issue seem to be the suggest extreme changes in soicety and social structure

1) they're not extreme. Not compared to what's been achieved in the past 30 years: and besides which, society changes in extreme ways. If I read you right, what you;re effectively saying is that there's something wrong with proposing change?

Or is it that change is okay, but society shouldn't change just because some bunch of gay people aren't happy?

Because one thing is 100% clear, and that is that society treats gay and bi and trans people as second class. So therefore this must change. If you don't agree with this then i don't understand why you're posting here.

2) As I mentioned before, you have no actual positive things to say: you're just here to tell people what they're saying is wrong, and what will never work, and who will never care. Do you imagine that this negative input is valuable?

This is a posting forum on the web, which is attempting to exchange ideas. We are aware that not all ideas may be workable, but knocking them and telling us what people are interested in, based on your experiences, isn't much help.

Fact is, there *is* no real problem with the educational system for straight people. They are 100% comfortable to allow anyone else to endure hell at school, afraid and uncomfortable about themselves. They think of sexuality studies as boring, because the world teaches them enough about themselves outside of school.

For gay, bi, and trans people, the world teaches them nothing except danger and fear. School teaches them nothing except danger and fear. There is sometimes no way outof this except by suicide, but more often than not it leads to scarring and problems: you may have been bored by sex ed but there again, maybe you were bored all the way through school.

that's not really the issue, is it?

dr_manhattan

as a PS, boston: this is under the 'creating safe schools' link that yellum posted. the heading is:

why should you care?

---

The issue of sexual orientation is one of personal importance to a great number of children. Researchers and social scientists suggest that 1 to 3 of every 10 students is either gay or lesbian, or has an immediate family member who is. Thus, between 3 and 9 kids in every class of 30 has had some direct experience with the issues of homosexuality and homophobia. Schools have an obligation to support and enhance the self-esteem of all students regardless of their sexual orientation. They are also a logical place to provide accurate information. This section reports some of the many effects of homophobia on students in educational environments.

("Why should the public schools teach about sexual orientation? " by Beth Reis, 1989, as presented to the annual meeting of the Association for Sexuality Education and Training.)



"People kept coming up to me and making fun of me, they would call me horrible names and I would cry all the time. Letters were put in my locker saying things about AIDS and how my parents shouldn't have had me and how I should just die. Kids would threaten me after school and follow me home yelling things at me. No one should have to go through what I went through in school."

Providence Student



"There was no one in my school for me to talk about my issues. I felt completely alone and unsupported. I had nowhere to unload the burden I was feeling unless I ended it."

Providence student



"I dropped out of school at 17, after being at different schools in Providence. I am gay, and was made fun of so much that I got sick of being in school. I couldn't stand worrying about what was going to happen to me each day when I got there, so I stopped going. I was beaten up all during my time in school, and the fights and threats started when I was pretty young. As I said, I did try different schools including a private one one. The last one was pretty good, but by then I was so fed up that I had lost any interest in school."

Providence student

So if you continue to insist that school is not the place for sexual education, please realise that you are kind of at odds with the central assumption of this thread, which is concerned with promotion of gay rights.

And your attitude also condemns many young gay, bi and trans people to hellish lives and often suicide.

yellum

Originally posted by Boston
stoped after things like mission statement. This is exactly the type of thing the people you want to have care about, don't. Whats your opinion on them, how effective do you think these thigns might be.

Mission statements are a way of expressing your goals and aims to others as well as to yourself. They describe the scope of the "mission" as well as how this "mission" is going to be carried out.

If you want to be serious about a campaign then I believe mission statements are one of the primary steps in starting a well-organised programme.

You say everyone should be free to expess there sexual preferances in school, but i say what has sexual preferrences got to do with learning maths or english or what ever, these are the things the schools are actually ment to be there for, and personally I resented my time being wasted in school listenign to a load of PC crap, about topics of which I cared nothing.


I'm not answering for Dr M here, he can wear out his keyboard even more himself. But I do want to answer this and give my viewpoint.

School is a place of learning and enlightenment. Its meant to teach you various things, and how to interact and make life better though these aims are seem to be eroding away in some schools and an attitude of "containment until they reach 18 " pervades.

School is meant to be about chracter development and teaching you how to learn for yourself too. In your view maybe we should all be schooled at home by sitting in front of a screen while some slideshow plays.

You'll learn more if you undertsand yourself. You'll learn more if you don't feel threatened. You'll learn more if you are relaxed and are happy. This can't happen until people are allowed to be themselves. People also learn more when they interact with their peers and exchange ideas and thoughts. Again to do this they need to be an environment where they are not picked on for just being themselves.

Boston

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
First off, boston, you don't seem to be reading what I'm writing: I actually spoke about what has to *disappear* from schools. What has to *go*. I never said anything "PC" had to be talked about.

I did not suggest one single lesson plan, set of rules or guidelines or anything: I simply said certain things have to change: and I covered things that I think must be removed, not added.

because, you see, you may think that school is no place for sexual development, but you see, like it or not, school already *is*. Human beings develop sexually between 10 and 20. This time is spent in school, absorbing (currently) the overbearingly heterosexually biased instructions of teachers, peers, and the state.

So you see, all I'm suggesting doing is changing school from a hetero brainwashing facility into a non-denominational one. Instead of it being an atmosphere where people are too scared to speak about anything except pussy, I want school to be a place to talk about pussy, dick, whatever - and feel equal.

well first off oyu write a hell of allot of stuff and sometiems its hard to keep track of just what arguements you have. Secondly you're talking about changing human nature, a school is just bricks and mortar, its the people in it that decide what a school will be like, and most kids believe system come from their parents or friends, this is not something you can change easily if at all. Certainyl not be taking some kinda formulaic approach. Like if we have three civics classes a week for 6 years its going to spread understanding.

Originally posted by dr_manhattan

All I have said is that schools have to change in order that people, when they are at school, do not feel afraid to be what they are. Now, you seem to have interpreted this as meaning that people should have sex in school:

No, merely saying teachers are students are there to do a job. Teacher student relationship shouldn't be such where sexuality becomes an issue.

Originally posted by dr_manhattan

If by "express their sexual preferences" you mean, say what they are, then yes, they should. Why should they not be? Why should saying that you're gay be a problem in school?

(1)Cause your sexuallity is your business and no one elses.
(2)Because the minute you make it someone elses they have every right to tell you exactly what they think of it.
(3)tolerance as you speak of will tolerate homosexuallity once they are never confronted with it. Its like TV is perfectly happy to have gay characters once they never actually apear to have sex.
(4)Did I mention no one gives a fuk? I mean I'm not going to listen to some muppet go on about how many chicks he fuked last night, any more then I would some other muppet go on about how many guys he fuked last night.
(5)Its pretty irresponsible things to do, I mean the reality of the situation is that there will be a stigma attached to you and your friends as a result. You may be that brave are they? And before you go off on a rant about this one I can speak with experince on this.

[/B][/QUOTE]

And if it should be, then where shuld it not be a problem?

Sorry but it shouldn't be a problem anywhere, but the reality of the situation is that it is.

Funny that, cos I bet when you were *in* school, you probably said "what the hell has english, maths etc. got to do with real life?"

No, I understood they where a means to an end.

1) they're not extreme. Not compared to what's been achieved in the past 30 years: and besides which, society changes in extreme ways. If I read you right, what you;re effectively saying is that there's something wrong with proposing change?

Or is it that change is okay, but society shouldn't change just because some bunch of gay people aren't happy?

Because one thing is 100% clear, and that is that society treats gay and bi and trans people as second class. So therefore this must change. If you don't agree with this then i don't understand why you're posting here.

uuu, society, must be a real evil bastard, everything now adays seems to be societies fault. I'm not opposed to change, I'm apposed to the notion that you can get 30 people in a room, all with differing views on sexuality, and brainwash them into buying your line on sexuality while convincing them that what they already know is wrong. Its rediculus to think that it would achieve anything, since its not new. you take about students not being the sheep and being themselfs, this approach would only work on complete sheep. The best you can hope for is to counter the crap the church puts out and let people develope their own opinions, some of which will not agree with yourself.

As I mentioned before, you have no actual positive things to say: you're just here to tell people what they're saying is wrong, and what will never work, and who will never care. Do you imagine that this negative input is valuable?

Sorry I thought me where talking about a serious issue here? I mean if you want me to bull **** then its no problem. But tbh I'm in a better position to know whether or not stuff like this will work in hte irish school system since I've had experince with it and I'm less then a year left secondary school. Which was a working class all boys school, exactly the type of place you wish to educate.

This is a posting forum on the web, which is attempting to exchange ideas. We are aware that not all ideas may be workable, but knocking them and telling us what people are interested in, based on your experiences, isn't much help.

Again if you want people to agree with you, don't post.

Fact is, there *is* no real problem with the educational system for straight people. They are 100% comfortable to allow anyone else to endure hell at school, afraid and uncomfortable about themselves. They think of sexuality studies as boring, because the world teaches them enough about themselves outside of school.

Sorry who exactly is this they? As for no real problem for straight people, that comment is so mind numbingly stupid its not even funny. Have you any idea of the number of teenage straight males offing themselves in this country as a result of sexual problems? I take personal offense to such a comment. Sexuality sudies don't exist in ireland mate, only sex (not even the full picture) ed exists and only in some schools.

For gay, bi, and trans people, the world teaches them nothing except danger and fear. School teaches them nothing except danger and fear.

Don't be so bloody dramatic, one wonders about you if you believe this.

Boston

Originally posted by yellum
School is meant to be about chracter development and teaching you how to learn for yourself too. In your view maybe we should all be schooled at home by sitting in front of a screen while some slideshow plays.

You'll learn more if you undertsand yourself. You'll learn more if you don't feel threatened. You'll learn more if you are relaxed and are happy. This can't happen until people are allowed to be themselves. People also learn more when they interact with their peers and exchange ideas and thoughts. Again to do this they need to be an environment where they are not picked on for just being themselves.

school was 'ment' where everyone was forced to dress the same,do the same things encouraged to act in the same way and to observe the status quo, School however was a game to me I played everyone and did what I wanted, learned how to read people and avoid the manipulative ****s. School was just a detraction untill me life actually started. As the man says I never let my schooling in the way of my education. And that is why I've very difference view points to others who I went to school with, In case you hadn't noticed I'm pretty odd for where I came from.

yellum

Keep it civil and impersonal or I'll start banning people.

Boston

Originally posted by yellum
Keep it civil and impersonal or I'll start banning people.

I'm not being personal with the guy, I just thing the comment wasn't thought out very well. The unbelievable amounth of crap I've had to deal with in the past as a result of my friends love lifes and how certain woman had ripped their heart out, is unreal. And the worst thing is that we don't take about it, we just let it build and build untill it becomes an issue.

yellum

Originally posted by Boston
school was 'ment' where everyone was forced to dress the same,do the same things encouraged to act in the same way and to observe the status quo

See, some schools are turning into this. They are all about some kind of punchcard, timeslice system where education is measured. Education is should not be measured in such small amounts. Teaching naturally makes people go off in tangents bringing other things into the equation to allow a better understanding.

The idea I'm talking about is people should still allowed to think for themselves. If they tell you they don't like fags n fairys thats fine, they are entitled to have that opinion once they respect that people are free to be themselves and have their own opinions. Its all about respecting other people.


In case you hadn't noticed I'm pretty odd for where I came from.

Ah but your lovely. *fluffles joe's hair* (or lack of it, bloody skinhead)

yellum

Originally posted by Boston
I'm not being personal with the guy

Its a preeptive warning to all. I'm not targeting you. I don't want anyone getting silly and ruining some great points of view over something like a personal attack.

dr_manhattan

Okay, I had my misgivings about public forum posting about LGB activism: I am not here to waste time talking about extremely obvious, repeditive issues: I was under the impression there was pre-extant interest in this topic from people who actually want to do something about the issues.

Unlike other discussion subjects online, I do actually care about sexuality and equal treatment.

Boston, you do not seem to have any positive or genuine interest in this thread at all: you're just trying to pick an argument. You're already starting to bring in soapboxes of yours, like how working class your area is, and how different you are from everyone else there. You're being agressive, insulting, and much worse than that, boring.

Once again I ask if you have anything to say that's positive, or any change to suggest to improve gay rights, then say it. Otherwise stop sniping at people's ideas and opinions like you care about them.

Otherwise, I have no interest in discussing this or any other subject with you, boston: So reply to yellum and yoda, and ignore me, okay?

bye now.

Boston

Originally posted by yellum
See, some schools are turning into this. They are all about some kind of punchcard, timeslice system where education is measured. Education is should not be measured in such small amounts. Teaching naturally makes people go off in tangents bringing other things into the equation to allow a better understanding.

The idea I'm talking about is people should still allowed to think for themselves. If they tell you they don't like fags n fairys thats fine, they are entitled to have that opinion once they respect that people are free to be themselves and have their own opinions. Its all about respecting other people.

That is the key though isn't it. If you're going to have the official line and anyone that deviates from that official line (that homosexuality is wrong, special, a wondrous gift...ect) is wrong, then you can't possible educate kids. But if you say well you're welcome to your own opinion once you don't throw it in someone else's face and this is how to have your own opinion and realize that gay people aren't a threat you, then yea that might work. But teachers are human, and as such will always but their own spin on it, none of them are unbiased.

There is another element to this, if you start educating people about their sexuality then your starting to encourage them to explore that sexuality and you might not be there to take care of the consequences. What you're talking about lads is opening up a door which might not ever to able to close again.

I also think three issues are being confused here. Are we talking about educating the great 'unwashed' as to homosexuality or are we talking about helping confused young kids here when we talk about educate? Because these would require completely separate approaches. An how far should education go? I mean is it good enough that someone won't club you from being gay or do you want to change there view point. No body went near my friends in school no matter what they thought about them for the simple reason of fear. Is that how me achieve equality? educate people that if they express there view point in public then they are going to get fined/fired or jailed? Dr M mentioned his work place and how it might be acceptable to from someone to express the fact that they are gay, would it also be acceptable for someone to express the fact that he hates gays? can you not see a problem there? Such as outside influences effecting production. Just because someone is a homophobe does that mean they can't program and should be fired? The homophobe and the homosexual would clearly have issues working together, as suchshouldn't certain things go unsaid?

That is another point, in college or the like if someone doesn't like you, well screw them find someone else's to be friends with and be yourself around. However that is very difficult to do in a smaller environment like a secondary school. 50 lads in my year, half I'd know since I was 8, nearly all I had know for 6 years anyway, mothers knew mothers and all that stuff, imagines exploring who you are in that environment would scare the **** out of me, and isn't that where allot of the really aggressive homophobia comes from? People afraid to ask questions of themselves and the very presence of an alternative sexuality forces them to do so, and as such evokes a negative response. You try to force people ask those questions of themselves and see the reaction. If you want effective sexual education then the end result has to be awareness of your own sexuality, how are you ever going to accept someone else's if you don't accept your own, and there is the basis of my problem with it. No one can teach you who you are its something you have to find out, no body can lay down a set of rules saying that if your x y and z then you're gay other wise you're straight. One poster here put forward the notion that there are literally hundreds of different sexualities how would a subject with a finite scope deal with that.

yellum

Thread split. Getting back on topic now.

Those that think theres a need for activism, are the 4 main areas listed further back in the thread enough ?

If a website was to be created to get more people to participate in this idea how should it be structured ?

Mission statements were mentioned previously. What should the mission statement be for such a group ?

Yoda

1. The four items seem to be representative enough.

2. Like http://www.thegayvote.co.uk?

3. "Equal rights for all of Ireland's citizens" is the brief, nach ea?