The Rise of Anti Semitism

woody

As per other threads this is slightly related….

I have seen a lot of Anti-Semitism in Ireland not just on boards but in the Irish Media and also the European Media in General.

Now coming from a mixed background of both Christian and Jewish beliefs I am broad minded in the respect that in the West a lot of people have a very vocal opinion.

There has been talk about the persecution of Muslims (to be a Muslim you don’t have to be Arab) in Europe. But the fact remains that they are the biggest threat to our way of life but most governments still support regimes such as Saudi Arabia, which have a horrific Human Rights record, Syria not as bad yet still gruesome and other Gulf States…

Most of the 9/11 Attackers came from Saudi as we all know, but what is worse is that if a person express’s an opinion about Radical Muslims or Palestinians we got shot down…But if an anti-Semitic opinion is expressed the majority of people turn away and accept it.

Why is one country such as Israel the size of Munster being put at risk of total annihilation everyday because they are a Jewish State, What is so wrong with Zionism or Christianity…People complain about the Golan Heights being “Occupied” yet it was the Syrians who tried to invade Israel, why complain about the West Bank, when the Jordanians treated these Arabs there as mere second class citizens and in a way the Israelis who took the land during the war actually treated them better than there predecessors and the same with Gaza.

We have to look at a few things also the incident in Madrid was unbelievably horrific and I myself am in deep sympathy for these people and there was utter out-rage.

But if say a Suicide bomber blows him/herself up in Say Haifa and kills 29 women and children and men it is forgotten in the West nearly as quick as it was announced.

If this happened in London, Dublin, Paris or Rome the governments there would also take draconian measures as likes the Israeli’s and there would not be uproar.

Yes the average Israeli and Palestinian want a normal life and so does the majority of the IDF but these murdering people of Arafats administration that committed crimes world-wide and in the Middle east are being excused as they are oppressed people…Why is that and why can they leave Israel to live in peace and why is the up-rise in anti-Semitism so strong in Europe and Nazism also what is WRONG being a JEW or ISRAELI they are humans after all.

Ajnag

By Anti Semitism, do you mean Racism against people of jewish desent and belife, or disagreement with the state of Isreals Tactics?.If you mean the latter, then It seems their are also many anti-semitic Jews out there........

You say its forgoten when a suicide bomber attacks, yet you fail to remember a place called Jenin, where Isreal obviously had something to hide from the u.n.

Also you speak the palistenians aim to destroy the state of Isreal, Is it not also true that there are ultra orthidox Jews who belive that the messiah can only return once greater isreal has been established ie Palistine has been destroyed, and do these people not hold places within the Knesset? close to the ruling likud party?

uberwolf

I listened to one Israeli(on the news) saying that the operation in Palestine wouldn't be over until they were all dead.

Its indisputable that Israel are contravening International Law and its very convenient to aim the the barb of anti-semitism at someone. Means you don't have to listen to their argument and that you undermine anything else they have to say.

The same tactic is employed by PC brigades everywhere, at a huge cost to open debate (and even democracy).

D

I thought most of the attacks on Israel came from the resentment that surrounding countries felt about losing land after the second world war and that middle east conflict was originally about palestinians etc and Israel, now it has evolved into a muslim/jewish fued.

uberwolf

Originally posted by D
I thought most of the attacks on Israel came from the resentment that surrounding countries felt about losing land after the second world war and that middle east conflict was originally about palestinians etc and Israel, now it has evolved into a muslim/jewish fued.

maybe its only because I am more concious of it now then ten years ago, but is there more tension between the major religious groups now than there has been for a while? Or is it just a convenient excuse for popularising political differences?

mr_angry

This is another classic example of a poster not being able to distinguish between the following two things:

• A Nazi-like irrational hatred of the Jewish people all over the world
• A criticism of a singular action, or number of actions by the Israeli government

They are two completely different things. If you can find me an example of the former on either this board, or in the European media, I'll be happy to discuss the matter with you. Until then, no chance.

ferdi

me anti semitic? but i loved 'fiddler on the roof'!

Lemming

I don't think we're seeing a rise in Anti-Semitism (at least more than from the usual fruit-loops), but we are seeing a rise in the accusations of anti-semitism. There are a lot of people out there who cannot equate "I do not believe in the manner in which the israeli state is behaving" with anything other than anti-semitism, which is, ironically, an anti-semitic notion in itself.

woody

Yes my first point would be the hatred of all Jews and the second the hatred towards the state of Israel.

The “Operation” in Jenin was proven by the UN to be not on the scale that was reported by the West or the Palestinians and that the actual Figures given by the later was both inaccurate and also bodies were actually placed there by themselves to cause much uproar.

This Operation was in response to a Wave of Suicide attacks killing many people in Israel both Israelis and non-Israelis…

The Operation was no different to Operation Motorman in Derry in the 1970’s when the British Army re-established rule in the no-go areas. But this was on a larger scale.

In response to the Ultra-Othrodox Jews and them wanting the destruction of Palestine and a Greater Israel, I believe your facts are wrong and someone saying they are going to only cease an operation after all Palestinians are dead is maybe the view of one person and the majority of the IDF are highly professional Soldiers, unlike the Security Forces of the PA and the Radical Islamic Groups.

Hobbes

AFAIR muslims are seminates too, so prehaps you should pick a different word?

But the fact remains that they are the biggest threat to our way of life

No the fact remains you have absolutly NO CLUE about the Muslim religion.

Prehaps you should pick up a book so you don't sound like an ignorant fuk next time.


Ps. Actions of Israel are what are being questioned. There are a large number of Jewish people in Israel who are just as pissed off, does that make them anti-semites?

mr_angry

Do I have to quote myself again Woody? Show me a single example of Nazi-like anti-semitism over criticism of a single action by Israel on this board, or the European media, and we'll discuss the issue.

After all, that is what you're accusing other posters and the European media of. Some examples, and some evidence instead of pure speculation would be nice.

woody

Actual in response to your Ignorant and very childish comments, I have read quite a lot about the Religion of Islam and also have read the Koran in English not Arabic or any other language…

I will make no comments on it as it is regarded here as Racist again my point is proven by people like you!

Lemming

Originally posted by woody
the second the hatred towards the state of Israel.

I don't "hate" the state of Israel. I'm rather indifferent to it actually. I just think that they are the proverbial pot calling the kettle black with the actions that they take more often than not. I disagree with some of their policies, but I far from hate them.

So what then? Is that still classed as "hatred"?? :rolleyes:

ferdi

hating israel would mean i actually recognise it....

Lemming

Originally posted by ferdi
hating israel would mean i actually recognise it....

I recognise Israel as a state. The UN does, so that's good enough for me. However, I question it's right to exist as a jewish state, given that the combination of religion & state seem to cause more problems than it's worth. The majority of it's citizens may be of the jewish faith, but that's no different to Ireland's majority being catholic. I think that there may be merit in looking at the state of Israel becoming a multi-deminational state that recognises both jew & palestinian as having legitimate claim to the region and sharing it as one state as opposed to the current apartheid policy.

Such a path would not be easy to get running, but it's another option, and better than option A or B (which both end up with division)

BuffyBot

They are two completely different things. If you can find me an example of the former on either this board, or in the European media, I'll be happy to discuss the matter with you. Until then, no chance.

Pretty well said there - woody, can you show us some proof of anyone showing "A Nazi-like irrational hatred of the Jewish people all over the world" on boards or the European media?

ferdi

Originally posted by Lemming
However, I question it's right to exist as a jewish state, given that the combination of religion & state seem to cause more problems than it's worth[/i]

yes sorry, this is what i was trying to get at:dunno:

ReefBreak

Originally posted by mr_angry
This is another classic example of a poster not being able to distinguish between the following two things:

• A Nazi-like irrational hatred of the Jewish people all over the world
• A criticism of a singular action, or number of actions by the Israeli government

They are two completely different things. If you can find me an example of the former on either this board, or in the European media, I'll be happy to discuss the matter with you. Until then, no chance.

I've seen examples of anti-semitism on numerous occasions on RTE - on Prime Time on a couple of occasions and on the RTE News last week, after the killing of Yassin.

ferdi

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I've seen examples of anti-semitism on numerous occasions on RTE - on Prime Time on a couple of occasions and on the RTE News last week, after the killing of Yassin.

well with this conclusive evidence, i believe the matter is closed.:rolleyes:

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Hobbes
No the fact remains you have absolutly NO CLUE about the Muslim religion.

Prehaps you should pick up a book so you don't sound like an ignorant fuk next time.

This says more about you than it does about Woody.

mr_angry

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I've seen examples of anti-semitism on numerous occasions on RTE - on Prime Time on a couple of occasions and on the RTE News last week, after the killing of Yassin.

Do you have quotes on any of those particular examples? And you're quite sure they weren't either criticising either the right of the IDF to kill people at their own discretion (a criticism of a singular act), or members of the general public expressing anti-semetic opinions (of which I am sure [and saddened] exist in our society).

D

I'd just like to ask everyone to keep personal comments to themselves and only comment on the topic we don't want to get thie thread locked.

ReefBreak, could you make specific references to these incidents you mention?

ReefBreak

I have loads of examples. Because unlike RTE, I don't agree with the HAMAS ideology that espouses the complete destruction of Isreal and the removal of all Jews from the middle east.

Example 1:
A suicide bomber detonates a bomb in the middle of a university canteen last year, resulting in the murder of about 20 israeli students. Tens more were horrendously maimed. This occured in the morning (Irish time). That evening the IDF had tanks rolling into one of the refugee camps, [edit]where no Palestinian was killed. What story did RTE news lead with that night? That's right, those horrible Israelis attaching those poor Palestinians. Oh yeah, 20 israeli students were killed after a suicide bomb was detonated in a canteen this morning. Loads more horribly injured. It was reported almost as non-story. It was sickening to see the priorities that existed among the RTE editors.

Example 2:
RTE's Richiard Downes reporting from Palestine last week was almost overcome with sympathy and support for Yassin and his HAMAS murderers. I don't agree with the killing of Yassin, but I certainly don't agree that anyone should have sympathy for him or his cause.

BuffyBot

ReefBreak, that isn't anti-semetic, more unbalanced reporting than anything else. (As I didn't see the reports in question, I'm taking your word on the way the content was portrayed)

ReefBreak

Yes, but it's a constant within RTE. I'm certain RTE values Palestinian lives over Jewish lives, and that, to me, is Anti-Semitic.

D

Probably it was a marketing decision. They had footage of the tanks rolling in and had none of the suicide aftermath. I see your point though.

Zombrex

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I have loads of examples. Because unlike RTE, I don't agree with the HAMAS ideology that espouses the complete destruction of Isreal and the removal of all Jews from the middle east.

Example 1:
A suicide bomber detonates a bomb in the middle of a university canteen last year, resulting in the murder of about 20 israeli students.

Er, I remember that and RTE did report on the bombing, the fact that it was widely condemed and the fact the Bush was "furious" (think that was what they said he was).

gandalf

Originally posted by Hobbes
AFAIR muslims are seminates too, so prehaps you should pick a different word?



No the fact remains you have absolutly NO CLUE about the Muslim religion.

Prehaps you should pick up a book so you don't sound like an ignorant fuk next time.


Ps. Actions of Israel are what are being questioned. There are a large number of Jewish people in Israel who are just as pissed off, does that make them anti-semites?

Sigh a week ban for personal insult. Argue the point not the person!!

Gandalf.

shotamoose

For those not willing to rely on Reefbreak's word, here's some links to RTE News Online's coverage of the incidents in question.

Widespread condmenation of Hamas killing

US President condemns bomb attack [on university canteen]

Unless their broadcast news is completely different from what's on their website (I'm at work so I can't listen to the audio links provided) the allegation of 'anti-semitism' at RTE seems to be bollocks.

sovtek

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Yes, but it's a constant within RTE. I'm certain RTE values Palestinian lives over Jewish lives, and that, to me, is Anti-Semitic.

Actually I'd say that RTE is somewhat balanced but at the same time you have to go looking for the fact that Palestinian civilians are killed on a DAILY basis...not every few weeks or so. It's telling that the phrase "relative calm" is used whenever there is a suicide bombing...but it's "relative calm" when homes are bulldozed, kids sniped, homes invaded and people harrarsed at checkpoints EVERY DAY.
But you're right...those poor Israelis get in the neck when it comes to the media.

mr_angry

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Yes, but it's a constant within RTE. I'm certain RTE values Palestinian lives over Jewish lives, and that, to me, is Anti-Semitic.

Thats purely speculation though. You might be correct, but its still speculation.

I haven't seen the news report live myself, so I can't tell what kind of 'slant' was put on it. However, I've personally seen several reports on RTE concerning suicide bombings before any Israeli response, and all of them have described them using terms like "terrible carnage", and "disregard for human life".

I have also seen more than a couple of reports that were 'mildly critical' of Israel moving tanks into Gaza. Perhaps RTE News don't quite share the view that such action is justified, but that is a far cry from anti-Semitism. You only have to look at the UN resolution tabled last week which was designed to criticise Isreal for the killing of Yassin - I certainly wouldn't describe the UN as an anti-Semitic organisation. Criticising Israeli action in Gaza does not equal anti-Semitism. I fail to see why this concept is so hard to grasp.

If you can identify particular quotes that are specifically anti-Semetic, I suggest you contact the office of the public broadcast regulators and complain, but I haven't seen any evidence so far apart from your "gut feeling" that RTE is anti-Semetic.

sceptre

Originally posted by woody
what is worse is that if a person express’s an opinion about Radical Muslims or Palestinians we got shot down…But if an anti-Semitic opinion is expressed the majority of people turn away and accept it.

Both muslims (radical or otherwise) and jews (radical or otherwise) are guilty of playing the "you can't criticise my country - that's racism!" card. Both sound like idiots when they do it.

If I criticise actions of the Saudi government I shouldn't get accused of being anti-Muslim.

If I criticise actions of the Israeli government I shouldn't get accused of being anti-Jewish.

I also shouldn't have to clarify every freaking time that when I'm criticising a particular government I'm not criticising a particular religion or the adherents of that religion. And I shouldn't have to think "hmm, sounds like the 'some of my best friends are...' excuse" when I do it.

Same applies to journalists. Some have an axe to grind, most don't. I'm sick of hearing individual articles analysed in an attempt to prove that Journalist X has an anti-whatever agenda. Childish as ****.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by woody
I have seen a lot of Anti-Semitism in Ireland not just on boards but in the Irish Media and also the European Media in General.

Please call it racism or similar, but don't call it Anti-Semitism. It's not any more special than any other type of prejudice, so don’t try labeling it as such. Europe has had enough.

Mighty_Mouse

The Operation was no different to Operation Motorman in Derry in the 1970’s when the British Army re-established rule in the no-go areas. But this was on a larger scale

Not many people agree with the above operation either.

Ajnag

Originally posted by woody
.

The “Operation” in Jenin was proven by the UN to be not on the scale that was reported by the West or the Palestinians and that the actual Figures given by the later was both inaccurate and also bodies were actually placed there by themselves to cause much uproar.

This Operation was in response to a Wave of Suicide attacks killing many people in Israel both Israelis and non-Israelis…

I dont remember such a u.n report, but If you have a link It would be most welcome.Same for the claim that bodies were placed there, sounds more like justification and propaganda to me, If not downright ridiculous.

In the meanwhile this may help your memory...
http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/index.htm#TopOfPage

and no doubt the suicide bombings were in response to territorial robbery and the bulldozing of civilian homes.It in no way justifys the suicide bombings, how ever It just shows what a pointless violent spiral this has become, with both sides unwilling to see reason, and more intrested in raising the ante.

Originally posted by woody

In response to the Ultra-Othrodox Jews and them wanting the destruction of Palestine and a Greater Israel, I believe your facts are wrong and someone saying they are going to only cease an operation after all Palestinians are dead is maybe the view of one person and the majority of the IDF are highly professional Soldiers, unlike the Security Forces of the PA and the Radical Islamic Groups.

Extremists are the same reguardless of race, colour, nationality or otherwise.There are extremist Jews in the knesset who want only for the full and complete destruction of the palistinians.

http://www.rense.com/general29/lib.htm

Yeah just like the soldiers of bloody sunday were professional. :rolleyes: Soldiers Take orders and if the orders state genocide, then History has shown that soldiers follow the order given.Also the professional conduct of The Idf seems some what questionable, given that they have inguaged in torture, fired missiles in to crowds of civilians to get one target, and have ran over one western protester with a bulldozer, and shot another only to claim that one bullet came from 2 different locations simultainously.

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I have loads of examples....

Example 1:
<deals with Israel and palestine, not Jews in general>

Example 2:
<deals with Israel and Palestine, not Jews in general>

I'm still looking for the examples of anti-Semiitism.

At best, you have provided examples of anti-Israelism, where people's attitudes towards the suffering endured by the Israeli's is typically tempered by their attitude of "Israel is wrong and Palestine is right in their actions".

I wouldn't question for a heartbeat that there are plenty of people who are anti-Israeli. The number of people willing to blindly dismiss any news article which sheds Palestine in a bad light as "IDF propaganda"*, and anything that casts Israel in a bad light as "undeniably true"* shows this is pretty much a given.

However, there is no indication that these people are anti-Israeli because they are anti-Jewish - or at least, no indications that anyone has been able to show.

Now this is typically where the allegations of latent anti-semitism come in. The "anti-Israelites" don't actually know they are anti-Semitic, but are so in reality, and it just manifests itself against the people of Israel.

Fair enough...if thats what you want to believe...you're free to do so. I assume that anyone who does believe that will also accept the counter-argument : that anyone who supports the actions of the Israelis against the Palestinian people and criticises only the Palestinians for their actions and who appears to hold Palestinian life less dearly than Israeli - that such a person is anti-Muslim?

So, if someone in is anti-Semitic for criticising Israel, or for believing generally that Israel is wrong and Palestine is right (to reduce things to simplistic levels), then surely that means someone who believes generally that Palestine is wrong and Israel is right (again, reducing things to such simplistic levels) must be anti-Muslim - even if only to a "latent" degree.

I'm wondering how many of the levellers of anti-Semitism allegations would be willing to accept that. Precious few I'd imagine, but all I'm doing is applying their logic to the same situation from the opposite perspective.

jc

* or words to that effect

bonkey

Originally posted by Ajnag
I dont remember such a u.n report, but If you have a link It would be most welcome.

A google for "Jenin UN Report" yields :

http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/

I assume this is the report being referred to. And it does conclude that the death-toll was - as far as could accurately be determined - 52 (very close to or bang on the Israeli estimate) and not 500+ (as claimed by Palestinian authorities).

Same for the claim that bodies were placed there, sounds more like justification and propaganda to me, If not downright ridiculous.

I saw nothing in that report about such a claim. There is reference to the claims that the Israeli's were removing bodies (so teh true death-toll would not be known), but there would appear to be no evidence to support the claim.

This report is not a complete vindication of Israel's actions though, nor should it be construed as one.

jc

sovtek

Originally posted by bonkey
A google for "Jenin UN Report" yields :

http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/

I assume this is the report being referred to. And it does conclude that the death-toll was - as far as could accurately be determined - 52 (very close to or bang on the Israeli estimate) and not 500+ (as claimed by Palestinian authorities).



I saw nothing in that report about such a claim. There is reference to the claims that the Israeli's were removing bodies (so teh true death-toll would not be known), but there would appear to be no evidence to support the claim.

This report is not a complete vindication of Israel's actions though, nor should it be construed as one.

jc

Of course they weren't allowed to enter Jenin to make the report...

The report was written without a visit to Jenin or the other Palestinian cities in question and it therefore relies completely on available resources and information, including submissions from five United Nations Member States and Observer Missions, documents in the public domain and papers submitted by non-governmental organizations. The Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs wrote to the Permanent Representative of Israel and the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations requesting them to submit information but only the latter did so. In the absence of a response from Israel, the United Nations has relied on public statements of Israeli officials and publicly available documents of the Government of Israel relevant to the request in resolution ES-10/10.

bonkey

Originally posted by sovtek
Of course they weren't allowed to enter Jenin to make the report...

Indeed.

This does not make Israel automatically guilty, however.

Not that you are implying it does, but I'm sure there are those who would be only too happy to.

jc

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

sceptre

Originally posted by daveirl
Back to RTE News, they do have an awful habit of not using the word terrorist. Sure wasn't Yassin just some nice 'spiritual leader'.

RTE tend to shy away from using the word "terrorist" in any case. As do quite a few other news organisations.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

monument

Originally posted by daveirl
Back to RTE News, they do have an awful habit of not using the word terrorist. Sure wasn't Yassin just some nice 'spiritual leader'.

Along with Reuters and any half respectable news outlet.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Please call it racism or similar, but don't call it Anti-Semitism. It's not any more special than any other type of prejudice, so don’t try labeling it as such. Europe has had enough.

Dam right.

Zombrex

Originally posted by daveirl
Back to RTE News, they do have an awful habit of not using the word terrorist. Sure wasn't Yassin just some nice 'spiritual leader'.

He was the "spiritual leader" of Hamas ... calling him so is accurate news reporting.

Would you prefer they called him the "evil spiritual leader" of Hamas?

Originally posted by daveirl
Fair enough but they didn't even use militant to describe Yassin!!

It is not RTE's job to pass comment on the aggressive character of Yassin. He was the spirtual leader of Hamas, and RTE reported it as such (along with everyone else). He was killed by IDF, and RTE reported as such. They didn't say it was a good thing or a bad thing, just like they didn't say he deserved it or not.

You seem to be confusing supporting Hamas with not condemning them. It is not RTE News' job to condemn any organisation. If you want that I suggest you watch FOX News

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Wicknight
Would you prefer they called him the "evil spiritual leader" of Hamas?

Considering his opinion on murdering innocent civilians, then yes, I would.

Zombrex

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Considering his opinion on murdering innocent civilians, then yes, I would.

So your objection isn't that RTE is bias, but that they are not biased in your direction?

I suppose if they don't call him "evil" they are anti-semetic too :rolleyes:

Lemming

As soon as a media reporting entity uses words with religious conatations, it loses all right to claim impartiality or unbiased reporting. Why do you think RTE never report on child sex abusers or their ilk calling them "evil monsterous creatures"?

Impartiality swings both ways ........

uberwolf

Yes, but it's a constant within RTE. I'm certain RTE values Palestinian lives over Jewish lives, and that, to me, is Anti-Semitic.

can you not distinguish between Israel and Jews?

I've seen examples of anti-semitism on numerous occasions on RTE - on Prime Time on a couple of occasions and on the RTE News last week, after the killing of Yassin.

You perceived anti-Israeli reporting? or anti-semitic, were there jewish tanks rolling into the occupied territories? or Israeli ones?

Considering his opinion on murdering innocent civilians, then yes, I would.

as pointed out the bias doesn't suit your views and consequently it is to be condemened, not purely as it is a bias.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Wicknight
So your objection isn't that RTE is bias, but that they are not biased in your direction?

I suppose if they don't call him "evil" they are anti-semetic too :rolleyes:

These are your words, not mine. I want balanced reporting from RTE, not to come down on one side or another. It wasn't that they didn't call him "evil" that bothered me, it was the fact that they displayed almost amorous sympathy for him. It's similar to the naked admiration that Tommy Gorman holds for SF/IRA, but that's for another thread.

Zombrex

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I want balanced reporting from RTE, not to come down on one side or another. It wasn't that they didn't call him "evil" that bothered me, it was the fact that they displayed almost amorous sympathy for him.

They didn't show any sympathy for him IMHO

What they also didn't do was show any anger towards him, or sign they were happy he was dead IMHO

That is the sign of a good news agency.

Can you show any reports of the www.rte.ie/news site that you think were "sympathy" for him?

Zombrex

RTE News - www.rte.ie/news
EU foreign ministers, the Palestinian Authority, many Arab countries and the Vatican have condemned Israel's assassination of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, founder of the militant group, Hamas.

The Israeli Army said Yassin was responsible for numerous terror attacks which had killed foreign and Israeli civilians.

Someone want to explain how that is sympathatic to Yassin?