Israelis kill Yassin

Ailill · 22-03-2004 10:51am #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0322/mideast.html

Hamas response is that Israel has "opened the gates of Hell".

I'm sympathetic to the idea that the Israeli state should be left unmolested by its neighbours but I really think they're going about this terrorism problem completely the wrong way.

The problem is that most of the top politicians and decisionmakers in Israel are veterans of the Arab wars - their mindset is highly militarised.

The American rssponse to this latest attack will be interesting. It's not that I'm soor about that scumbag Yassin. I just think that Israel needs to get their settlers out of the Occ Terr and stay within the territory given them by Britain.

gavinjoyce · 22-03-2004 11:11am

Unfortunately this cycle of violence is going to get worse now. Both sides are wrong, yet they both believe themselves to be right. They are both using terrorist tactics. Both are killing indiscriminately.

dathi1 · 22-03-2004 11:38am

It's not that I'm soor about that scumbag Yassin.

The man who lost his house and family to occupiers and land grabbers in one fell swoop. Its all really simple isn't it...good guys / bad guys. This was the man who managed to get hamas to call a truce!! yes a truce!. Sharon and the rest of his Zionist terrorist lobbyist friends in Washington are percolating terror worldwide like never before.

halkar · 22-03-2004 11:53am

If you come and take my home and buy some people to live on it I go and explode on you too. All Israel thing is wrong, you can't form a country by buying people and giving them money and lands of other people all because you beleive that it was promised to you thousands of years ago. Both sides should comprimise, you can't stop terror with terror, you kill one there will be thousands coming to you.

Reading from BBC, they think Sharon directed the attack. When will they put this guy on trial, he is just as terrorist as Yasin himself.

woody · 22-03-2004 12:02pm

The Israeli response is a correct response... People who damn "Zionists or Israelis" are mislead very mislead.. I have served in Lebanon, have seen suicide bombs go off in Tel Aviv and seen young Israeli soldiers hacked to pieces by the Lovely "Palenstinians"....ISLAM = EVIL read the Koran it is based on Brutality.

The Israeli's have a complete right to defend themselves by any means necessary, read you BIBLE they are God's people, they have a country slightly bigger than Munster and want to live in peace.

Get you left wing, western, no war Cr*p ideas and think about them, they are wrong,live in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem for a few months and you will soon see how barbaric the Palenstinians are....

They do no belong to that land as they are Jordanians not from Palestine...Yasser Arafat is a Tunisian...

And for George Bush he is right to take on the Arab world as WOULD YOU LIKE TO LIVE UNDER THE TAELBAN OR SADDAM...

Think before you make evil statements about a nation which will be always win against all odds, why because it is foretold and they are god's people.

I am not a Jew I am a Christian but I will always support Israel and will fight for them.

HAMAS are murders, so unless you have been there and not just looked at TV or read a paper don;t judge....Israeli people own those lands and are not occupiers...

An the lovely spirtual leader sent young men to there death to kill innocent woman and children....WHAT would you do if your Family were blown apart by an Evil suicide bomber!!!!!!!!

mycroft · 22-03-2004 12:17pm

read you BIBLE they are God's people,

Well if it's in the Bible it must be true

woody · 22-03-2004 12:25pm

Thanks for your Smart comment!!

You must be another left wing idiot.....or someone who goes an watches the passion of the Christ and wants to hit some Jews afterwards!!!

The West is full of Idiots and you are one!

frost · 22-03-2004 12:27pm

I think looking at the North here as an example, it's pretty obvious that it is a complicated situation with no clear "good guys" or "bad guys".

How do we judge this, or should we?

There is imperfect information flow. Even the most dedicated unbiased journalist can't get all sides of the story.

There is media bias. Broadly, it is pro-Palestinian/ anti-Israel in Ireland, and the opposite in the USA. (Obviously there are lots of exceptions on both sides of the Atlantic).

There are people with other agendas, political or idealogical.

There is blatent or subtle racism. Equating the Koran with Evil is a racist statement. Equally so is equating Zionism with terrorism.

So what I am saying, is this: I think people want to see a conflict as simple, black & white. We want to understand the world and know where we stand in relation to it. In the world of science, coming up with simpler explanations of natural phenomena has been an incredible powerful and useful tool. In the human world of politics & religion, it can provide ONE viewpoint, but cannot give a truly useful analysis because it misses so much.

halkar · 22-03-2004 12:29pm

Own what lands? who gave any lands to them? If they were promissed 1000s of years ago why didn't they claim before and why it was giving as Palestine state and not as Israeli state after WW1. All because of WW2 they just land there and claim the lands saying we have no where to go, what happened all those people there? Do you think people in Israel are from Middle East? Most are from East Europe and Russia. If you are jew you can go to Israel and giving lands money house but if you are palestine or muslim you get looked down. And I have seen that and yes I was in there too and yes I am not just talking by TV or papers. You should go to Palestine and see how they leve these days while Israelis living in far better than them.

Not all muslims are terrorists and Islam DOES NOT equal Evil, you read the Kuran before you know what you are talking about. Being in Lebanon doesn't give you right to know and accuse Kuran. They live different and west should respect them instead of poking their noses in to their lives. For me there is no difference between Israel sending gunships and tanks on civilians and suicide bombers. If Hamas is a terrorist group, Israel is a terrorist country. I am suprise how the world not putting sanctions on Israel like they did to Iraq and Libya.

Zombrex · 22-03-2004 12:35pm

Originally posted by woody
ISLAM = EVIL read the Koran it is based on Brutality.

So is the Bible and pretty much any other religious text of that era

Originally posted by woody

They do no belong to that land as they are Jordanians not from Palestine...Yasser Arafat is a Tunisian...

And where are most of the Jews in Israel from :rolleyes:

Israel is a country of refugees. That was the whole point of the formation of the state, to allow jews from around the world a safe harbour after WWII. And since then they have flocked there from around the world.

To claim that the Palestineans have no right to their own land (which Israel is trying to grab BTW) while the Jews do is hypocritical and illogical.

GreenHell · 22-03-2004 12:37pm

Oh no their gods people well thats ok then I guess they can keep doing the whole eye for an eye tooth for a tooth thing, if their gods people it must be ok. Wake up.

This was a big mistake by Isreal and Palestine is going to reply then Isreal will reply and so on and so forth.

uberwolf · 22-03-2004 12:43pm

Originally posted by woody

Get you left wing, western, no war Cr*p ideas and think about them, they are wrong,live in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem for a few months and you will soon see how barbaric the Palenstinians are....

I'm sure you could live in palestine for a while and feel no different.

Originally posted by woody

An the lovely spirtual leader sent young men to there death to kill innocent woman and children....WHAT would you do if your Family were blown apart by an Evil suicide bomber!!!!!!!!

I'd bomb them, then they'd bomb me back so I'd bomb then again, so they'd bomb me, so I'd bomb them.

NM, just realised this is a troll.:rolleyes:

woody · 22-03-2004 1:00pm

Frost you have a very mature and commendable impartial attitude to this conflict.

The Bible does relate to today, it is also the best tourist guide of the Holyland...

And to quote on one respect there was hundreds of thousands of Jew's in "Palestine" for Aeons and Arabs always persecuted them....

The lands of the West Bank of Gaza Strip where nothing but waste land that no one wanted neither the Egyptians or Jordanians.... When the UN split the Land of "Palestine" in two in 1948 it was the Arabs that attacked the New Sovereign State of Israel...

The Israelis captured the lands of the West Bank which was barely inhabited and the Gaza strip and cultivated and irrigated the lands.... Then the Greedy Arabs wanted them...

The So Called "Palestinians" in the West Bank had more rights with the Israelis there than the Jordanians...

And I have lived in Israel for 12 Years and being in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and I have seen there Brutality to there own people there. And lovely Yasser and his cronnies are draining all the funds coming into the country and using it for there own personal gain...

And I have been in Lebanon during a lot of the Wars there so I have both an educated idea and factual idea of what is going on...

Yes people are dying but if there was a real truce and not a temporary cessation to regroup and rearm it may make a difference... Israel wants Peace but the Muslims of this world in general want a Final Solution again like the Second World War and still wont be happy.

And I stand by the fact that Islam is based on brutality especially towards Women...

And Mohammed was a paedophile and rapist if you read the text of it... is this moral, should all non-Muslims be killed... I have studied the Torah, the Koran and the Bible and none is so brutal as the Koran...

But I know all the smart responses that will occur, misinformed statements and misinformation....

I have been on the front line with both the Irish and Israeli armies and I rather be with them than a fanatical terrorist organisation like Hamas or Islamic Jihad...

Sparks · 22-03-2004 1:04pm

Wow. At this rate, my ignore list is going to exceed the allotted memory in the vBulletin software....

egan007 · 22-03-2004 1:14pm

This is unbelievable

It's like trying to quench a fire with petrol

What the hell is wrong with these 'Leaders' -i use the term lightly

Boston · 22-03-2004 1:30pm

Originally posted by woody
Israel wants Peace but the Muslims of this world in general want a Final Solution again like the Second World War and still wont be happy.

Do you think that this is the best way of going about achieving peace? Isreal wants victory not peace. What do you see as the end result of all this, 50 years of more bloodshed? When will it end?

egan007 · 22-03-2004 1:35pm

Originally posted by woody
The Israeli response is a correct response... People who damn "Zionists or Israelis" are mislead very mislead.. I have served in Lebanon, have seen suicide bombs go off in Tel Aviv and seen young Israeli soldiers hacked to pieces by the Lovely "Palenstinians"....ISLAM = EVIL read the Koran it is based on Brutality.

The Israeli's have a complete right to defend themselves by any means necessary, read you BIBLE they are God's people, they have a country slightly bigger than Munster and want to live in peace.

Get you left wing, western, no war Cr*p ideas and think about them, they are wrong,live in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem for a few months and you will soon see how barbaric the Palenstinians are....

They do no belong to that land as they are Jordanians not from Palestine...Yasser Arafat is a Tunisian...

And for George Bush he is right to take on the Arab world as WOULD YOU LIKE TO LIVE UNDER THE TAELBAN OR SADDAM...

Think before you make evil statements about a nation which will be always win against all odds, why because it is foretold and they are god's people.

I am not a Jew I am a Christian but I will always support Israel and will fight for them.

HAMAS are murders, so unless you have been there and not just looked at TV or read a paper don;t judge....Israeli people own those lands and are not occupiers...

An the lovely spirtual leader sent young men to there death to kill innocent woman and children....WHAT would you do if your Family were blown apart by an Evil suicide bomber!!!!!!!!

I am a very liberal person - before now i could not understand what goes on in the mind of Bush, but you have made it clear.

What people like you and Bush do not understand is that - the current leaders in Israel, palestine, and the us are different sides of the same coin. They are extremists who are hell bent on getting exactly what they want. The problem is that not you or I can convince them different - they believe with all their heart that they are right. There is no room for compromise or rationality on either side.

Think about it - we look at sky news and are told to believe...

from the middle east you hear tearms like "holy war" - your immediate reaction is to get afraid....but in the US you hear Bush saying "we have god on our side" - heck their motto is "in god we thrust"

What's the difference? Western interpretation

we believe what we are told

halkar · 22-03-2004 1:36pm

Originally posted by woody
...

And I stand by the fact that Islam is based on brutality especially towards Women...

And Mohammed was a paedophile and rapist if you read the text of it... is this moral, should all non-Muslims be killed... I have studied the Torah, the Koran and the Bible and none is so brutal as the Koran...

But I know all the smart responses that will occur, misinformed statements and misinformation....

I have been on the front line with both the Irish and Israeli armies and I rather be with them than a fanatical terrorist organisation like Hamas or Islamic Jihad...

And what language did you read the Koran in? You are lucky you got back here alive with this attitude. I can't beleive UN sent people like you to places like Palestine, Israel and Lebanon. Or are you just watching too much Tv?

The land being not claimed does not give them any rights to claim and build on. And Israel will do the same to Golan Heights which is still in dispute but they will build on regardles and put their people in. In that case why didn't they go to Antartica? where lands are not claimed there either. WW2 was not fault of muslims nor Palestinians, it was Germany if they were that desperate they should have put their SO called Jewish state in Germany somewhere then.

Palestine and Israel is a culture rich terrirtority where there has alwasy been history of people there, I am suprised how Ottomans kept them and all middle east and Balkans and north africa and some of russia with so many ethnic groups and religions together for over 500 years and look at the state of it in less then 100 years. I guess you call Ottomans brutal too as their main religion was Islam.

mr_angry · 22-03-2004 1:52pm

Typical Israeli response - rather than arrest the man (they obviously knew where he was) and try him for his crime in a transparent court of law where they would have to prove his crimes, they blow him up. Really taking the moral high-ground there.

Originally posted by woody
The Israeli response is a correct response...

The Israeli's have a complete right to defend themselves by any means necessary, read you BIBLE they are God's people, they have a country slightly bigger than Munster and want to live in peace.

Get you left wing, western, no war Cr*p ideas and think about them, they are wrong,live in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem for a few months and you will soon see how barbaric the Palenstinians are....

Ah - so you know everything, do you? Its nice to see that, since there is such a lack of all-knowing people on Boards. We'd be lost without people who resort to religious fundamentalism to justify their arguments. Hold on... that sounds a little like the Arab terrorists, doesn't it? How strange...

And since you're so fond of the Bible, perhaps you'd like to explain why this doesn't contradict the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". Perhaps I misread it - maybe it actually said "Thou shalt not kill unless you're killing an ungodly Palastinian". That would suit better, wouldn't it? Perhaps we should re-write the good book whilst we're in the process of re-writing history to suit our needs anyway.

I'll keep taking the deep breaths...

Ping Chow Chi · 22-03-2004 2:05pm

Originally posted by Sparks
Wow. At this rate, my ignore list is going to exceed the allotted memory in the vBulletin software....

Same here

though Im suspecting they are all the same person using different accounts

pro_gnostic_8 · 22-03-2004 2:38pm

Originally posted by mr_angry
Typical Israeli response - rather than arrest the man (they obviously knew where he was) and try him for his crime in a transparent court of law where they would have to prove his crimes, they blow him up.

Heh, I think you'll find that Yassin WAS tried for his crimes, sentenced to life imprisonment in 88/89 but released under a deal engineered by Jordan.

This was not a nice humanitarian guy. Founder and "spiritual" (???) leader of Hamas, and instigator of the suicide bombing campaign against the state of Israel claiming the lives of hundreds of innocent human beings. The world is well rid of his kind.

mr_angry · 22-03-2004 2:52pm

I stand corrected. What did the Israelis get out of the deal then? Why release him, just to blow him up?

egan007 · 22-03-2004 2:52pm

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Heh, I think you'll find that Yassin WAS tried for his crimes, sentenced to life imprisonment in 88/89 but released under a deal engineered by Jordan.

This was not a nice humanitarian guy. Founder and "spiritual" (???) leader of Hamas, and instigator of the suicide bombing campaign against the state of Israel claiming the lives of hundreds of innocent human beings. The world is well rid of his kind.

Nobody here doubts that the world is better off without him- the point is that this was not the way to do it. Just adds fuel to the fire......an eye for an eye has been proven not to work many times.

sovtek · 22-03-2004 2:55pm

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Heh, I think you'll find that Yassin WAS tried for his crimes, sentenced to life imprisonment in 88/89 but released under a deal engineered by Jordan.

So he was tried by rule of law, released by rule of law...then summarily executed by terrorism.

This was not a nice humanitarian guy.

No one suggested that that I could see.

Founder and "spiritual" (???) leader of Hamas, and instigator of the suicide bombing campaign against the state of Israel claiming the lives of hundreds of innocent human beings. The world is well rid of his kind.

I'm not sure he was the instigator but even if he was what was it in response to?
Given that innocent civilians of the Palestinian persuation are killed on a daily basis (known to the news media as "relative calm") in between those sporadic suicide bombings...is the world well rid of Sharon or even Bush?

woody · 22-03-2004 3:24pm

As far as your all concerned the Israeli is evil and so be your opinion...

When an Arab comes to Ireland 9 times out 10 he does not respect our laws or culture..

When a Christian wants to spread Christianity in the like of Iran he gets Crucified and this has also happened in Bethlehem recently as last year.

The New Testement says "Thou shalt not kill", So you excpect Israel to be irradicated is that is because that is what you are saying....The Arab is all good and the Jew is evil, they teach hate in Palestinian schools to children that "Jews are dogs"

That is no different to Nazism....

And yes I do believe and eye for an eye....

I am not a fundalmentalist , I am a person who has lived with both Arabs,Bedouins and Jews in the Middle east, I have been through Operation Grapes of Wrath, Accountablity and the 17 Day War and was at Qana in Southern Lebanon...Dont Preach to me when you are there your Idealistic Western Left View will change to an more educated view....

And I have served in Bosnia defending so called "Muslims from" Serbs and if you look into your History the Israeli's Help the Muslims of Bosnia when the Lovely Corrupt Evil Arab world turned there back on their own "Brothers"

As for Sharon, the Man is a better leader than any leader at the moment and I have met him personally and is a nice real and honest person.

As for Bush, he is a puppet!

egan007 · 22-03-2004 4:11pm

Originally posted by woody
As far as your all concerned the Israeli is evil and so be your opinion...

When an Arab comes to Ireland 9 times out 10 he does not respect our laws or culture..

When a Christian wants to spread Christianity in the like of Iran he gets Crucified and this has also happened in Bethlehem recently as last year.

The New Testement says "Thou shalt not kill", So you excpect Israel to be irradicated is that is because that is what you are saying....The Arab is all good and the Jew is evil, they teach hate in Palestinian schools to children that "Jews are dogs"

That is no different to Nazism....

And yes I do believe and eye for an eye....

I am not a fundalmentalist , I am a person who has lived with both Arabs,Bedouins and Jews in the Middle east, I have been through Operation Grapes of Wrath, Accountablity and the 17 Day War and was at Qana in Southern Lebanon...Dont Preach to me when you are there your Idealistic Western Left View will change to an more educated view....

And I have served in Bosnia defending so called "Muslims from" Serbs and if you look into your History the Israeli's Help the Muslims of Bosnia when the Lovely Corrupt Evil Arab world turned there back on their own "Brothers"

As for Sharon, the Man is a better leader than any leader at the moment and I have met him personally and is a nice real and honest person.

As for Bush, he is a puppet!

the issue here is not who is the goodie and who is the baddy - they are both wrong
the issue here is that killing Yassin in this way was stupid and did more harm than good. I'm not defending the killing of a supporter of violence - im defending sanity, and rationality. This has made things worse not better. what is the point in taking a step backwards.

If this way worked - all leaders in the North would of been shot long ago - ever wondered why they are still alive?

halkar · 22-03-2004 4:22pm

They teach no different to jews in school either. Israel is promissed land and whatever.
I have a lot of doubts about your Lebanon and Bosnia and Sharon stories. whatever that is my problem

Being through all that doesn't mean that you were educated , especially after reading all your comments about Islam and Muslims and I still find it hard to beleive that UN send you there and bosnia with this mind of yours.

Israel is doing nothing to resolve the conflict there and this is in front of you black and white. Trying to prison people behind walls is just not for 21st century and killing leaders of terrorist groups like this will only help them to recruit more. And blow on their faces more, this is no longer Israel's problem, between Bush and Sharon all we are seeing is terror and terror and more terror. Not only for Israel and US but all over the world. Unfortunately they are Islam followers but it is all down to one thing, which is US and Israel's interest in middle east.

jonhate · 22-03-2004 4:29pm

originally posted by woody

ISLAM = EVIL read the Koran it is based on Brutality.

woody have you actually read the Quran?

Johnny Versace · 22-03-2004 4:30pm

Another example of the crazy Israeli government.

That country really is the most evil in the world. Thank God they're not a super-power.

I have so much sympathy for the Palestinians.

bonkey · 22-03-2004 4:34pm

Originally posted by woody
As far as your all concerned the Israeli is evil and so be your opinion...

All of us? Have you any evidence to support that?

When an Arab comes to Ireland 9 times out 10 he does not respect our laws or culture..

I'm guessing you've no real evidence to support that either?

When a Christian wants to spread Christianity in the like of Iran he gets Crucified and this has also happened in Bethlehem recently as last year.

Never heard that one before. Evidence?

The New Testement says "Thou shalt not kill", So you excpect Israel to be irradicated is that is because that is what you are saying....
The Arab is all good and the Jew is evil, they teach hate in Palestinian schools to children that "Jews are dogs"

Funny...I could have sworn I've never been saying anything like that. I've been saying that both sides are wrong. But say that we all are saying this, so I must be wrong.

Thanks for correcting me on what I've been saying. Now if you could only supply some evidence???

And yes I do believe and eye for an eye....

So - you believe that it will be ok for the Palestinians to take action of their own in the name of vengeance for this? Eye for an eye remember.

Dont Preach to me when you are there your Idealistic Western Left View will change to an more educated view....

Well, so far you've apparently managed to successfully managed to misinterpret my Idealistic Western Left View, so I'm a bit concerned of becoming more educated if it means I'll be as prone to pre-judgement as you appear to be.

And I have served in Bosnia defending so called "Muslims from" Serbs and if you look into your History the Israeli's Help the Muslims of Bosnia when the Lovely Corrupt Evil Arab world turned there back on their own "Brothers"

As for Sharon, the Man is a better leader than any leader at the moment and I have met him personally and is a nice real and honest person.

This is sure to be misunderstood, but I'm going to say it too. Hitler was - by all accounts - a very nice man to meet personally as well.

The point - for those who will immediately get all hot and bothered by mistakenly thinking that I am comparing Sharon to Hitler - is that anyone can be a nice man/woman when you meet them personally. This has absolutely no reflection on the righteousness or wrongness of the actions they carry out in their lives, nor of the decisions they make in positions of power which affect others.

As for Bush, he is a puppet!

Careful. Getting close to an Idealised Western Left View there.... you're in danger of ending up like me and having all of your opinions summarily prejudged and boxed in with those you don't actually agree with, by those who at least claim to be more educated.

hc

egan007 · 22-03-2004 4:39pm

excellent analysis my friend

Sounds like you actually know what you are talking about rather that that other random word generator

mr_angry · 22-03-2004 4:53pm

The New Testement says "Thou shalt not kill", So you excpect Israel to be irradicated is that is because that is what you are saying....

Only if you believe that indiscriminately killing people is the only way to guarantee the safety of the state of Israel - a view to which I, thankfully, don't adhere. Why don't you listen to your posts again objetively? All you are doing is advocating more killing.

Considering you were so well-informed by your time in Israel, perhaps you should go and live on the other side of the West Bank wall for a while. Then, when you realise that people there are as much afraid of Israel as the Israelis are of the Palestinians, you might realise the one fundamental logical conclusion:

Killing people hasn't helped either side.

And I have yet to see a shred of evidence to prove that it has. And I fail to see how blowing up Palastinians, whether they are innocents or mass-murdering b*stards, has protected the state of Israel from attack. As far as I can see, innocent Israeli people are still being blown to bits.

So, tell me - how has killing helped anyone so far?

Wrestlemania · 22-03-2004 5:12pm

I would have to agree with Woody on a good few points to be honest....

In the UK after Sep,11 and also in Ireland a lot of Islamic Clerics where declaring Jihad on all civilised persons both Gentile and Jew.

There is also mass teachings in schools in the west bank of hate against the Jew, not the Israeli against all Jews...

As in regard to the UN sending people over there, people are entitled to there opinion...whatever it maybe that is Democracy ...

I was born there and yes killing is wrong and is a vicious circle, but people can't stand by and get murdered....a majority of the breaches of the truces are my Islamic Militants!

In response to the crucifixations (cant Spell) it is true, I have heard of Palenstinian Christians that this has happened to and Iran and Syria do it Publically I saw it in Damascus in the mid-1980's and is horrific..

You all have opinions which are not necsarily wrong but More moral and sometimes just misinformed...

The West is anti-Jew and it always has and the US in not a ally in reality of Israel...Sure the South Africans would be more loyal than them...

Being intellectual and well read does not give a person an insight in fact to what is going on...

War is wrong but is always going to be there no matter what!

ArphaRima · 22-03-2004 6:09pm

"We, Air Force pilots who were raised on the values of Zionism, sacrifice, and contributing to the state of Israel, have always served on the front lines, willing to carry out any mission, whether small or large, to defend and strengthen the state of Israel.

"We, veteran and active pilots alike, who served and still serve the state of Israel for long weeks every year, are opposed to carrying out attack orders that are illegal and immoral of the type the state of Israel has been conducting in the territories.

"We, who were raised to love the state of Israel and contribute to the Zionist enterprise, refuse to take part in Air Force attacks on civilian population centers. We, for whom the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force are an inalienable part of ourselves, refuse to continue to harm innocent civilians.

"These actions are illegal and immoral, and are a direct result of the ongoing occupation which is corrupting all of Israeli society. Perpetuation of the occupation is fatally harming the security of the state of Israel and its moral strength.

"We who serve as active pilots - fighters, leaders, and instructors of the next generation of pilots -- hereby declare that we shall continue to serve in the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force for every mission in defense of the state of Israel."

I know they are only so-called reserves, but these guys are ex active service. Technically every person above age except for the orthodox jews are required to be trained in the military.

The West is anti-Jew and it always has and the US in not a ally in reality of Israel...Sure the South Africans would be more loyal than them...

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Miscellaneous/Years_of_US_UN_Vetoes.htm
Here is a list of the US vetoes in the UN over the last 30 years. Read it.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)
"This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen."

Except for the few exemptions for medical or religious reasons, at the age of 18 every Israeli Jew, man or woman, is supposed to join the army and serve for about three years. Until they are around 45, many Israeli citizens—mainly men—are required to serve annually in the reserves. These are in addition to the huge number of Israelis who are career soldiers. Thus, the famous quote: “Israel isn’t a nation that has an army, it’s an army that has a nation.”

Johnny Versace · 22-03-2004 6:22pm

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
The West is anti-Jew and it always has and the US in not a ally in reality of Israel...Sure the South Africans would be more loyal than them...

I totally disagree with this.

Firstly, this anti-jew thing is totally over played. Everything is anti-jew these days. Have you seen "the passion of the christ"? Apparantly that is anti-jew because it shows a few priests who are crazy.

And saying America is not an ally of Israel? WTF? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. America bends over for Israel on a daily basis.

Zombrex · 22-03-2004 6:24pm

bonkey · 22-03-2004 6:40pm

Originally posted by Wicknight
Do you actually have anything constructive to add?

All I see in that last post of yours is a complaint which should have been directed to the mods, and not put in-thread, followed by a personal insult, which has no place in the conversation either.

So after flouting rules with the first two sentences - neither of which added anything to the discsussion - you had the absolute cheek to ask if the target of your affection was going to add constructively to the conversation????

Now why doesn't everyone take a deep breath, calm down, and try this a bit more rationally?

jc

Ailill · 22-03-2004 7:12pm

Originally posted by halkar

For me there is no difference between Israel sending gunships and tanks on civilians and suicide bombers. If Hamas is a terrorist group, Israel is a terrorist country .

Now I disagree with you there. I think there is a crucial difference between the tactics of Hamas & Co. and Israel. Israel usually targets only those people who are involved in terrorism, these attacks are carefully planned to minimse the effect on the general population.

On the other hand, Hamas & Co. just bomb anybody at all who is Jewish. So, I have no sympathy for Yassin or any other preacher of racist hatred.

At the same time I don't think Israel should be carrying out acts like this, it's not right for a democratic state to act like this, in any way.

I wonder how many Americans actually realise that their hard earned dollars are funding these aggressive acts?

sovtek · 22-03-2004 7:22pm

Originally posted by Ailill
Now I disagree with you there. I think there is a crucial difference between the tactics of Hamas & Co. and Israel. Israel usually targets only those people who are involved in terrorism, these attacks are carefully planned to minimse the effect on the general population.

I don't really understand how you think that when so many innocent civilians are killed on a daily basis by the IDF. Then you see footage of the IDF shooting teenagers throwing rocks.
Using F-16's to target a militant's house??? That's not careful military operation by any stretch IMHO.

On the other hand, Hamas & Co. just bomb anybody at all who is Jewish.

Crap! They do carry out suicide bombings, usually after an incursion or assassination of one of their leaders (not that I'm condoning that either). But they more often attack military targets as well as settlers who carry out attacks on the general Palestinian population.
If they just wanted to kill Jews they'd have a better chance doing suicide bombings in New York.

At the same time I don't think Israel should be carrying out acts like this, it's not right for a democratic state to act like this, in any way.

Then why is that not terrorism?

I wonder how many Americans actually realise that their hard earned dollars are funding these aggressive acts?

/me throws my hand up oh oh oh !!!! over here over here!!!!!

Besides that US soldiers have recently been training with the IDF to learn how to carry out these same tactics on the people of Iraq, after seeing how well they work in the West Bank (that's sarcasm if you didn't catch it).
Also the Israeli government gives an awful lot of American citizens incentives to come and live in the illegal settlements in the West Bank.

Zombrex · 22-03-2004 7:24pm

Originally posted by Ailill
Israel usually targets only those people who are involved in terrorism, these attacks are carefully planned to minimse the effect on the general population.

I am not to sure about that. Their tactics seem to be a bit more on the lines of "f*ck it, fire away, if we hit him we hit him."

One of the reasons (I would imagine) that the Palestinians are so pissed off with Israel is because they keep killing civilians in these attacks, and they don't really seem to give a damn.

Whether Hamas blow up a bus, or IDF fire a couple of missles at a house, you still end up with a load of dead people. At least Hamas, as horrific as their attacks are, are honest when they say they are trying to kill as many Jews as they can. The IDF saying "well we were only trying to hit one person in that appartment block we leveled" is a pretty terrible excuse for killing a load of civilians.

bonkey · 22-03-2004 7:39pm

Originally posted by Ailill
Israel usually targets only those people who are involved in terrorism, these attacks are carefully planned to minimse the effect on the general population.

I'm not sure I would fully agree with that. Israel usually targets only those people who it believes are involved in terrorism, and does so in an ex-judicial manner which often involves targetting these people with non-precision weaponry whilst in a public arena.

I don't honestly think that can be called minimal effect....but then again, I have this strange notion that deciding civilian lives are worth less than soldiers' is wrong....but its apparently a reasonable decision to make for military operations these days.

On the other hand, Hamas & Co. just bomb anybody at all who is Jewish.

Israeli, not Jewish, surely? But otherwise I'd agree.

I wonder how many Americans actually realise that their hard earned dollars are funding these aggressive acts?

More importantly - how many actually care?

Many, I am sure, will defend these aggressive acts in the same way I would expect Biffa to were to join in this discussion - by iterating the tried and trusted mantra that all Israel is doing with these actions is exerting its right to self-defence, and that they are not assassinations / ex-judiciary killings, but rather justifiable acts of self-defence.

And of course, many will oppose them and be branded anti-Semitic for doing so, continuing the currently popular trend of inability to distinguish between pathological or irrational prejudice of a group, and criticism of a specific action.

Wrestlemania · 22-03-2004 7:44pm

I will say one thing only.....

You are misinformed...
Your Facts are wrong.
And believe it or believe it not you are acting like Nazi's...

People die yes I know and it is terrible but anti-semitism is rife and most views on this thread are that...Why you will question over and over again because you can sit in your arm chair at night and say look at those "f**king Israelis and poor palestinians...

You are hyprocrites....I wont explain myself because there is no point..you have not being there and have not suffered...I have at first hand had friends die on night out..why because they were Jews...

You will all try and say the Holocaust never happened aswell...

Yes there is good and bad on every side but I rather be under democratic Israeli rule than undemocratic PA rule...

As a former Israeli Solider who has done his national service, I am proud of my country and also the settlements as all Jews and Christian Zionists have complete right to Alliayah..

I know I will get a barrage of insults and so called intelluctual arguements and so be it but you are wrong very wrong so DEAL WITH IT.

Seaneh · 22-03-2004 8:18pm

Now I am not a big Isreal supporter, but i do agree with this killing.
It's a good thing the man is dead, he should have been killed 20 years ago, I dont give a **** if he is in a wheelchair, the man was a legitimate target the second he told 20something year olds that bombing a school bus was a good idea, and the fact that he has personally ordered most of them compounds that legitimacy.
The man was no better than hittler, or Stalin or anyone else who ordered the killing for hundreds of children.
no matter what the reason the killing of innocent children is not acceptable, and anyone who denies that Isreal was right to kill the man needs thier fu<king head examined.
The man was just evil, smiple as.

Zombrex · 22-03-2004 8:37pm

Originally posted by Seaneh
The man was no better than hittler, or Stalin or anyone else who ordered the killing for hundreds of children.

Israel kill children in their attacks and raid all the time. I am not saying this man didn't deserve to die, I am saying Israel doesn't have to moral high ground here.

But it is not about right and wrong. It is about doing something really stupid and not doing something really stupid.

Question - What is Israel hoping to achieve by this?

Will it halt attacks against its people? - No, it is going to make them 10 times worse.

Will it help with international support for Israel? - No, it has been publically comdemned by even Israels closest allies.

Will it destructure Hamas? Possibly for the short term, but I would bet their are 20 people ready to take his place.

Will it help the peace process at all? Absolutly not. It has killed the peace process for years, if not decades.

What exactly was the point of this attack? It was carried out by people who believe that striking at Hamas and being seen to be strong and defient, is more important than the peace process, and dare I say it, more important than Jews being killed on the streets of Israel.

Ironically the IDF and Hamas both seem to think that the same short term signs of strength, revenge and killing are more important than any attempt to form a workable situation in the middle east.

To anyone who supports this action, what do you believe the long term achievements of it will be?

mr_angry · 22-03-2004 8:40pm

Originally posted by bonkey
And of course, many will oppose them and be branded anti-Semitic for doing so, continuing the currently popular trend of inability to distinguish between pathological or irrational prejudice of a group, and criticism of a specific action.

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I will say one thing only.....

You are misinformed...
Your Facts are wrong.
And believe it or believe it not you are acting like Nazi's...

People die yes I know and it is terrible but anti-semitism is rife and most views on this thread are that...Why you will question over and over again because you can sit in your arm chair at night and say look at those "f**king Israelis and poor palestinians...

You are hyprocrites....I wont explain myself because there is no point..you have not being there and have not suffered...I have at first hand had friends die on night out..why because they were Jews...

You will all try and say the Holocaust never happened aswell...

Yes there is good and bad on every side but I rather be under democratic Israeli rule than undemocratic PA rule...

As a former Israeli Solider who has done his national service, I am proud of my country and also the settlements as all Jews and Christian Zionists have complete right to Alliayah..

I know I will get a barrage of insults and so called intelluctual arguements and so be it but you are wrong very wrong so DEAL WITH IT.

I know you're entitled to your opinion Wrestlemania, but I simply CANNOT BELIEVE that you posted what you did directly after the preceeding comment. I don't think I really need to go any further. If you want to know why people disagree with you, thats why. I actually thought you were joking when I first read it.

bonkey · 22-03-2004 9:13pm

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
And believe it or believe it not you are acting like Nazi's...

Funny you should mention that. I see increasing amounts of allegations in the current media about "growing anti-semitism in Europe".

Hand in hand I see increasing numbers of Israelis and American Jews saying "you are just like Hitler", "you are no different to the Nazis" and other such rubbish.

Here's something to stop and think about. Who's breeding hatred here? Those damned Europeans who are calmly and rationally saying "what you do is wrong", or those who offer a response along the lines of "WHAT??? How dare you criticise our actions, you fscking Jew-Hating Nazi".

Yes, there are anti-Semites around. However, telling everyone who doesn't love the Israeli nation and every single one of its actions to the highest of their ability that this "failure" makes them a nazi is not going to win anyone any favours.

but anti-semitism is rife

Perhaps.

and most views on this thread are that...

If you genuinely believe that, ask yourself one simple question....

Why are all of these semites only ever criticising Israeli Jews, and occasionally American Jews (for their hand in helping encourage the US to support Israel)? Why are they not looking to persecute the Jews in their own country, which would be far easier, surely?

can sit in your arm chair at night and say look at those "f**king Israelis and poor palestinians...

No, I only say something that when its Palestinians who have died at the hands of Israelis....and I would qualify it more as "f**king heavy-handed Israeli tactics...." than "f**king Israeli's".

When its the other way around, I generally say "F**king Palestinian terrorists and the poor Israelis.

But I guess I'm just hiding my latent anti-semitism by actually criticsing those as I see being responsible on both sides, rather than one entire cultural/racial/religious group.....

I wont explain myself because there is no point..

WEll, if you think I'm going to simply allow you to use this forum as a soapbox to shout your particular flavour of invective and bile from, you are very much mistaken. If you are not interested in joining in the discussion, then don't.

You will all try and say the Holocaust never happened aswell...

a) Innocent until proven guilty. Its a nice concept. You should try it.
b) I have neverseen anyone on this forum make such a ludicrous statement as Holocause denial
c) and if they did, I would expect them to back up their statements in the same way that I did to woody and his "9 out of 10 arabs" comment earlier. ANd you know what...I'll treat them in the same way should they fail to meet my standards or retract the statement - that being with a banning, because such unfounded statements are tantamount to racial slurring.

But let me guess - while I would be right to do that to anyone questioning the Holocaust, asking a supporter of Israel to back his anti-Arab statements would be anti-Semitic?????

I know I will get a barrage of insults

And if you do, they will be dealt with in the same manner as any other directed insults here....regardless of who is making them.

and so-called intelluctual arguements and so be it but you are wrong very wrong so DEAL WITH IT.

So, you know we have wrong information, you believe you have the right information....and rather than rationally discuss with us why we are wrong, safe in the knowledge that you are correct....you get worked up, refuse to discuss things, and shout at us that we're wrong...just 'cause...and to shut up and cope about it?

Did it ever occur to you that some of this alleged anti-Semitism is just people who don't like that arrogance being shoved in their face by anyone???

jc

halkar · 22-03-2004 9:29pm

Holocaust? Why does this have to come play now?
So what is going on in middle east? slowly but surely. It is a fact that there are more Palestinians dead then Israeli's and many are civilians just like Israelis. I condemn Palestinians suicidal tactics but they don't have state of the art advanced war machines and trained army as Israel do and they won't get far with their rusty AK47s either.
I wonder if Palestinians had the same advanced weaponary and sent few missiles on Sharon's head, what would the reaction be like? After all for them Sharon is a head of terrorists too. Having said about the reactions to this US as yet to condem, while most of the world did. If as I said if it was other side around and Sharon got killed by palestinnians US would be the first raising their voice. Go figure.

sceptre · 22-03-2004 9:41pm

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I will say one thing only.....

You are misinformed...
Your Facts are wrong.
And believe it or believe it not you are acting like Nazi's...

Firstly that's three things and added to the paragraphs I decided not to bother quoting it summed to about ten things.

Secondly I'm not as anti-Israel as some posters on this forum. Conversely I'm not as pro-Israel as some posters on this forum. However, I'll predict a poster within ten posts replying to yours by outlining how it could be said that the Israeli government and army are acting like Nazis by killing people with relative lack of discrimination based on race and the possibility that they might be or might know enemies of the State, expanding their borders to create a buffer zone or lebensraum where people are encouraged to settle while non-citizens are encouraged to keep to defined zones and the willingness of Mossad to take out enemies of the State and people in foreign countries, either through assassination or kidnapping. I'm just waving the warning flag now so you can prepare the vitriol for the hazard ahead.

Obviously there are a few ingredients missing, which is why I would personally be slow to classify the Israeli government as the bullied become the bully. I'd classify the government in the past few years as more of a lost waif and I feel genuine pity for the non-bigots, both Jews and Arabs, who have to put up with an elected government of hatemongers. Obviously given that they were elected in a democratic election, the sane types are in the minority. Pity that.

Johnny Versace · 23-03-2004 8:11am

I think it's pretty obvious Wrestlemania is trolling.

No one is that retarded.

gandalf · 23-03-2004 8:29am

Johnny Versace banned

Hobbes · 23-03-2004 8:32am

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I would have to agree with Woody on a good few points to be honest....

In the UK after Sep,11 and also in Ireland a lot of Islamic Clerics where declaring Jihad on all civilised persons both Gentile and Jew.

Linkage please.

Hey guess what Israel was doing when the towers were falling? Yes thats right they invaded palistine in a large number of tanks. They thought they could get away with it as people would be looking elsewhere.

There is also mass teachings in schools in the west bank of hate against the Jew, not the Israeli against all Jews...

Sadly the reverse is true, however if people bothered to actually do some research you would know that Jewish God is the same god as the Islamic god.

As in regard to the UN sending people over there, people are entitled to there opinion...whatever it maybe that is Democracy ...

A large number of UN people in palistine have been shot and killed. So much so the UN made an announcement about it some time ago. Palistine asked for UN troops, Isreal* doesn't want them there.

a majority of the breaches of the truces are my Islamic Militants!

You know news can be subjective in the areas. Breaches of truces? Match that up with people killed.

In response to the crucifixations (cant Spell) it is true, I have heard of Palenstinian Christians that this has happened to and Iran and Syria do it Publically I saw it in Damascus in the mid-1980's and is horrific..

How about some news reports on it? If it was that horrific it would of been reported.

The West is anti-Jew and it always has and the US in not a ally in reality of Israel...

What pisses me off is how people try to tie Israel+Jewish together. "You hate what a country is doing so you must hate all jewish people", so does that mean the open protests in Israel by Israelis are because they hate themselves?

If you are going to spout stuff please put links.

To those who think violence solves anything ask yourself this. Israel assinated one of the only Hama leaders who wanted a ceasefire. By killing him do you think there will be (a) less violence or (b) more violence. Please use both sides of the paper to explain why.

* When I say Israel I mean the current administration, or rather the assholes who continue to let this go on. There are a large number of people in Israel who don't want this sh!t to go and are just as horrified as what goes on in both sides.

Israelis kill Yassin

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