Pinko Ireland

dirty_latino

Why is there such an abundance of Left Wing political parties in a new vibrant Ireland?

After all, with the wealth amongst the relatively young population surely a right wing party would flourish instead of the old Irish trait of appealing to the low-income?

Any thoughts?

gandalf

My thoughts are that you really do not understand politics in Ireland at all. The main problem here is that there is not enough of a Left Wing representation in the Dail to provide a proper balance of Government. The normal make up of an Irish Government is FF (Centre Right) with the PD's (Liberal Right) or Fine Gael (Centre Right) and Labour (Centre Left). Basically Ireland is still voting based on Civil War politics (something that is changing slowly!).

What is needed is Labour or Labour combined with the Greens to get a majority to go into Government for themselves. Then we might actually see all the parties actually work for a change for the whole country and not for a few property developers we have feathered their nests for them.

Gandalf.

dathi1

After all, with the wealth amongst the relatively young population surely a right wing party would flourish instead of the old Irish trait of appealing to the low-income?

are you sure you know what right wing means?

dirty_latino

Originally posted by dathi1
are you sure you know what right wing means?

Only too aware!

gandalf

Originally posted by dirty_latino
Only too aware!

Care to explain what it means to you then ?

Gandalf.

dathi1

so what's your explanation as to why a "right wing party" wouldn't appeal to low income workers?????????

ps: the pinko tag is soooo 80's yer shown yer age.

dirty_latino

Originally posted by dathi1
so what's your explanation as to why a "right wing party" wouldn't appeal to low income workers?????????

ps: the pinko tag is soooo 80's yer shown yer age.

Yes, I was born in the 80's - booya!

I didn't mean workers! I meant the bloody hippy and student scum and also the bloody leeches on the dole! Right Wing Parties do not generally get their following, am I wrong? how so?

dirty_latino

Originally posted by gandalf
Care to explain what it means to you then ?

Gandalf.

If anyone else had asked yes. But not to an anal 'mod' who only has a facade of power on a fake internet community! You have alway been a loser on any post you have put forward so I will not satisfy your thirst for my superior knowledge!

Get a job

Moriarty

Slow sunday, eh dirty_latino?

gandalf

LOL I had already banned him for personal abuse. Guess I'll make it a permanent ban now

Gandalf.

Lear

Originally posted by dirty_latino
Why is there such an abundance of Left Wing political parties in a new vibrant Ireland?

After all, with the wealth amongst the relatively young population surely a right wing party would flourish instead of the old Irish trait of appealing to the low-income?

Any thoughts?

YES.

It's called the politics of jealously, and it's often characterized by bashing those with wealth and reiterating about how unfair it is that some people have more than others -- regardless of whether the better-to-do earned their wealth through long hours of hard work.

Sparks

Originally posted by Lear
It's called the politics of jealously

Or maybe it's just because right-wing parties have the BNP as their poster boy?

Lear

Originally posted by Sparks
Or maybe it's just because right-wing parties have the BNP as their poster boy?

Respectfully, I don't know what the "BNP" is, but I know leftist rhetoric when I see it. For example, you've attempted to paint a guilt by association link with the "BNP" being some evil-awful-racists-authoritarian-younameit boogieman, and all right-wing parties being slaves to said boogieman.


I've heard Republicans in the US cast as racists for the crime of demanding, of all things, that our university student admission programs not use race-blind standards when determining who gets in to one university or another -- something that our Constitution demands (the "Equal Protection Clause" of the 14th Amendment of our Constitution).

Incidently, Jesse Jackson, who was caught making various racial slurs over the years and who pals around with Louis Farrakan, is at the forefront of these accusations.

Ergo, forgive me if I remain skeptical of your rhetoric.

Sparks

Originally posted by Lear
Respectfully, I don't know what the "BNP" is,

Think Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter, with shorter haircuts.

but I know leftist rhetoric when I see it.

Obviously not.

I've heard Republicans in the US cast as racists for the crime of demanding, of all things, that our university student admission programs not use race-blind standards when determining who gets in to one university or another -- something that our Constitution demands (the "Equal Protection Clause" of the 14th Amendment of our Constitution).

No, you haven't. You've heard them cast as racist because they refuse to take account of background in their admissions standards policy. The idea behind that is that it's supposed to give an equal playing field on the amount of effort needed to get into college, not the grades.
And given that the republican with the highest political office was a beneficary of such a policy (though one applied to the son of the governer of texas rather than one applied to socially disadvantaged people), it's more than a tad hypocritical.

Ergo, forgive me if I remain skeptical of your rhetoric.

Sure, soon as I post some, you can remain as skeptical as you wish.

gandalf

BNP = British National Party and as you state they are a racist organisation who up until recently were totally anti-Irish but if current newpaper reports are to believed they have decided to help their Irish "brothers" to stamp out the scourge of refegees etc by supporting a Irish version. Not sure why Sparks brought them up?

As for your comments of the politics of jealousy if only it was that simple. Ireland is fairly unique in Western Europe in that the main political divide is not drawn on a simple left/right axis but more a centre-right/centre-right axis determined by the Civil War from around 80 years ago. The main left party (and they are only really centre left) is labour and they are only the third largest party in the state. So to say there is abundance of lefty parties is partially true but to say they have the majority support is totally untrue.

Also I am not sure why bringing up Republicans and whether they are racist or not on a thread about Irish politics is relevant?

Gandalf.

Lear

Originally posted by Sparks

Lear : Respectfully, I don't know what the "BNP" is,

Sparks : Think Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter, with shorter haircuts.
ptical as you wish.

You've proven my point. Mindess rhetoric, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Sparks

Originally posted by Lear
You've proven my point.

Actually, I haven't - I believe I've simply give an alternate answer to the topic's question.

Mindess rhetoric, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Yes, that's exactly what the BNP represent. And they happen to be one of the extreme right-wing parties. Now ask yourself this - who's more dangerous, these guys or greenpeace? And there's your answer as to why the left-wing have a lot more parties.

Lear

Originally posted by gandalf
BNP = British National Party and as you state they are a racist organisation ...
[/B]

Respectfully, I'll not argue about the nature of the BNP, but I'll remain skeptical of the claim given my past experiences.


As for your comments of the politics of jealousy if only it was that simple. Ireland is fairly unique in Western Europe in that the main political divide is not drawn on a simple left/right axis but more a centre-right/centre-right axis determined by the Civil War from around 80 years ago. ...

Respectully, your centre-right/centre-right axis is but a label that could be spun as a "left/right" coin.

However, regardless of a country's history, human nature doesn't change much. there will always be people who strive to better themselves and others who will decry the unfairness of life, as opposed to getting off their arse and improving their own lot.

what befuddles me is the political divisions in France.


Also I am not sure why bringing up Republicans and whether they are racist or not on a thread about Irish politics is relevant?

It was to a reference to illustrate my skepticism of people who run around calling others "racists"

monument

Originally posted by gandalf
PD's (Liberal Right)

Liberal? Try authoritarian / right.

Lear

Originally posted by gandalf
BNP = British National Party and as you state they are a racist organisation ...

as with the US, Ireland seems to suffer from too much name-calling, to little honest debate.

gandalf

Originally posted by monument
Liberal? Try authoritarian.

I was talking about their economic policies. Of course I forgot about "Herr Flick" and his policies

Sparks

Lear, perhaps you should look up the BNP before saying that.
What was it you said to me not ten minutes ago in another thread? "I was there, you weren't"?
You don't know their name, let alone know what they are - we do.

monument

Indeed. (to what gandalf said)

Originally posted by gandalf
BNP = British National Party .... Not sure why Sparks brought them up?

I'm thinking it's something to do with right wing authoritarian groups like FF, PDs, FG etc don’t like to be called right wind because the public view of the extreme of right wind is the (clearly wrong) BNP, while the public view of the extreme left is “pinkos”, tree lovers, hippies, or whatever?

Lear

Originally posted by Sparks
Lear, perhaps you should look up the BNP before saying that.

I don't need to read up on the BNP -- a task that would take me days to educate myself propery -- in order to realize that you're the sort of fellow who simply makes hateful, simplistic statements -- your comments on Coulter and Limbaugh to be perfectly exemplary.

Whether or not the BNP is a racist organization, the nature of your critique of it gives it credability.

Lear

Originally posted by Sparks
What was it you said to me not ten minutes ago in another thread? "I was there, you weren't"?

I was making it perfectly plain that I have a background that sensitizes me to the issues of terrorism, while you have butkus. I also related DETAILS -- first hand details.

Regarding the BNP you've done nothing but spew conclusory statements with no supporting evidence.

Sarky

Originally posted by Lear
I was making it perfectly plain that I have a background that sensitizes me to the issues of terrorism, while you have butkus. I also related DETAILS -- first hand details.

Good for you! Sure nobody in Ireland or any other country besides America has lost anyone in their family to intimidation attacks of any sort. I mean, those boyos in the IRA (the pre-treaty one) had it coming, didn't they? Imagine not wanting to be treated like crap in their own country by a swaggering belligerant foreign power? The Cheek! Our parents and grandparents positively deserved to be executed for thinking they should have a say in the running of their own lives! And who gives a damn about parents, anyway?

monument

Originally posted by Lear
I was making it perfectly plain that I have a background that sensitizes me to the issues of terrorism, while you have butkus. I also related DETAILS -- first hand details.

I’m not attacking you here – so please don’t think I am….

Did you every stop to think that the terrorists might feel the same emotive way about whatever they are fighting for?

Did you every stop to think that most of the terrorists probably have “firsthand details” of wrongs done to them, their country, their people, their friends, or their families?

Originally posted by Lear
Regarding the BNP you've done nothing but spew conclusory statements with no supporting evidence.

The BNP will tell you they support “diversity” (keeping black/white/whatever away from each other) this kind of diversity is a nice way of saying we don’t like them because they are black/white/whatever – which is racist.

Any one who supports this kind of diversity is racist, not needing to be the lets kill them racist, but still racist.

From their website… (I’m not linking to it, but it’s easily found)
“Q: Why are you against mixed-raced relationships?
A: We are against mixed-raced relationships because we believe that all species and races of life on this planet are beautiful and must be preserved. When whites take partners from other ethnic groups, a white family line that stretches back into deep pre-history is destroyed. And, of course, the same is true of the non-white side. We want generations that spring from us to be the same as us, look like us, and be moved by the same things as us. We feel that to preserve the rich tapestry of mankind, we must preserve ethnic differences, not ‘mish-mash’ them together.”

Racist is “discrimination or prejudice based on race” the above is doing so, so they are racist, they’re racist in a slick political way, which is sickly ok for some people.

I'm actual feeling sick after reading the stuff on their website

sovtek

Originally posted by Lear
-- regardless of whether the better-to-do earned their wealth through long hours of hard work.

What about when it's earned by having government connections to get laws passed that benefit them or passed down from someone who had government connections.

bonkey

Originally posted by Lear
as with the US, Ireland seems to suffer from too much name-calling, to little honest debate.

Well...you know what the first step to reaching a solution is? Stop using it yourself...that way when you criticise others for the same, it seems like a reasonable request.

For example - explaining the entire issue of the popularity of "leftism" (itself a form of name-calling in teh sense offered) with :

it's called the politics of jealously

Then rationally discussing someone else's viewpoint by saying :

I know leftist rhetoric when I see it.

Topped off ultimately by some honest debating in the form of admitting that you do not know anything about the party referenced, but that the reference must be

Mindess rhetoric, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Not only that, but you decided to allege that your assumption about something you did now know about proved your point.

But yes...getting back to where I started....I agree fully with your point. Some less name-calling and some more honest debate would not go astray here at all.

But before suggesting that others attend the mote in their own eye.....

jc

sovtek

Originally posted by Lear
Whether or not the BNP is a racist organization, the nature of your critique of it gives it credability.

:rolleyes: I really miss Geromino

pork99

THe best book I ever read about socialism

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415253896/qid=1080002528/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_11_2/026-8213270-4366003