Mayday events.

redflaremist

Hows it going,

I wont cut and paste the list of the Mayday weekend events planned for fear of being called a spammer, but you can click on the link below to see the plans for the weekend, just curious to hear what all the right-wingers on boards.ie think of the whole thing.

http://geocities.com/eufortress

thanks

gandalf

OK a couple of things here. You only seem to use this site when you want to "advertise" one of your meetings.

I am not a right winger I would be centre left if anything but I do find some of things that are planned too confrontational. Painting private property is a crime and by doing so you are creating a potential flashpoint with the authorities, is that the aim? And please don't say its a symbolic protest because any intelligent person can see it is going to cause a problem.

Also I see no reference on that site to peaceful protest only, infact the links about "protecting yourself against tear gas" and "protecting yourself against a baton charge" suggest that you expect trouble, does that mean that you advocate violent protest and destruction of property as a means to get your point across?

I am also curious are you still a student? Or do you work for a living?

Gandalf.

MeatProduct

I think it is very dangerous to do the things outlined above, especially in the light of Bush's forces seeking diblomatic immunity when he visits. You are giving them a reason.

Nick

dirty_latino

As somebody who sees themself as very much on the right hand side of the right wing I felt it was my duty to inform the Gardaí about this website. This has now been done.

On another note, I will now purposefully be in the City Centre on May 1 and if the "Dublin Grassroots Police Network" enter my vicinity I will be arrested by the real Gardaí for GBH!

Big Ears

All yer crazy little thing does is waste gardai Time , Which is why yee protesters/hippies are the ones to blame for the lack of gardai to prevent stop/ crime . :mad:

dirty_latino

Good point, I concur my african american brother

mobby

With regard to that website under the heading where can I stay

If you're looking for something a bit more upmarket then you should consult the Irish Tourist Board, Bord Failte, they will be able to recommend a bed & breakfast or hotel for you.

Maybe the Shelbourne or the Westbury ,Perhaps after the events of Paddys day Bord fáilte could market Dublin as the Tourist destination for rioting and mayhem on the streets.
Bring on the Wombles in their White Suits (makes the Blood more dramatic you see)

Big Ears

Originally posted by dirty_latino
Good point, I concur my african american brother

surely u dont mean this about me ?
White and born and raised in Ireland and still living here:o

gandalf

Originally posted by Big Ears
surely u dont mean this about me ?
White and born and raised in Ireland and still living here:o

Don't mind him. He was trolling from his mates computer and has been banned (from boards totally again!) just like the last time he did it. Quite sad really.

Gandalf.

Guy:Incognito

just had a quick scan thru the web site and came accross the bit that sez everyone shud have the right to live and work wherever they like. Shurely even these bloody idiotic hippies can see this cant work. Fair enough there are a lot of people i the world living in poor counties but its not feasble to say they can just go elsewhere, i mena what happens if a couple of hundred million african people decide to descend on europe all at once, say maybe 5 r 6 million thro their dart in the european map and its lands on ireland. Its hard enough for the country to sustain 4 million people plus the comparitively small ( compared to a no borders world) amount on legal and illegal people coming in already. Now fair enough there are lazy people in the country , which is why there are jobs to be had, but if everyone got up off their arses 2moro id say theres just about a job for everyone, so what happens to these extra 5 r 6 million. Can you imagine a dole que 5 r 6 million deep? Whats the dole nowadays €100? so that €500m a WEEK that has to be produced. End result of all this would be a coolapse of the economy and then the people would just bugger off to aother country cos thered be no money/jobs to be had here.

Morpheus

NO BORDERS MAYDAY WEEKEND - DUBLIN, IRELAND
Friday April 30th to Monday May 3rd

Everyone, regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, or background is welcome to participate or observe these actions happening over the four days. We encourage people to participate to work towards a city, and a Europe, that values people above profit.

PEOPLE ABOVE PROFIT!?? are you mad? do you sincerely think any state will ever take this point of view? your saying value migrants above the money you can save by not letting them sponge off our system put in place for our people using our taxpayers money? NO NO NO... you will not get any taxpaying sensible persons support on the imigrant issue. The simple solution is to put incoming countries under pressure to set up proper social services for their own people before they are allowed to join europe. Anyone else can just go somewhere else, we had to struggle to make our govts put these wheels in motion over the last 100 years, why should other countrys shortcut it and avoid it by sending their seething penniless masses to live off our hides? EU should put nigeria and other african countries ,russian states,china, etc under more and more human rights pressures using sanctions etc to force them to realise they cannot ignore their people anymore.


CRITICAL MASS:
useless pathetic request to remove private transport. until we have the public transport infrastructure in place this is a complete waste of time.

HOMES NOT JAILS:
OK, i agree with this one. but are you occupying a building illegally? this isnt very wise... cant you see the reaction??? "the activists are intimidating the gardai again by breaking the law... again."


PUBLIC BEATINGS STREET THEATRE:
Whats this about? the govt isnt hard enough on criminals, should be three strikes your out policy, ive a pain inmy ar*e reading about manslaughter or murder charges being equated to 4 or 8 years in prison, as far as im concerned, you take a life you do the time Life should mean LIFE!!! the lenient sentences and chances for parole send out completely the wrong message to criminals.

THE POLLUTER PAYS:
silly, bring your packaging back to the producer?? if theres no law that says they should recycle it, why waste your time bringing it back, theyll just throw it away anyways. If you feel strongly enough, try encouraging people to just refuse to buy from a producer that doesnt recycle.

RECLAIM THE CITY:
Again, i hope this is all above board reclaining of land?? youve seen what happens when people take posession of private land before... do you want to go down this road again?

BRING THE NOISE!
Do you seriously think you will get past the gardai (backed up no doubt by the army if needed) to get within half a mile of the front door?! this also is silly. these people are guests of ireland, give them the respect they deserve as heads of our friendly neighbouring states. Make a petition and bring it to the front door officially in a peaceful manner. "Fortress Europe" will not go down well... your basically saying we are becoming a Nazi state?! wake up, we dont have enough infrastructure in place in europe to handle our own populations problems, how the hell do you expect us to fund useless unskilled immigrants???

NO BORDERS, NO NATIONS - NO BORDER CAMP:
again, wheres the money to come from to pay for these migrants? you want an increase in taxes???

NO BORDERS RECLAIM THE STREETS: The only party worth joining in town! Reclaim The Streets happens again on the May bank holiday to wind down the weekend. Unlike the State's street party, everyone from around the world is welcome to come to Dublin for this, not just those that satisfy the demands of Fortress Europe. Expect music and dancing, drinking and face painting,

you forgot VIOLENCE AND RIOTING. :rolleyes:

:dunno:

How about a "RECLAIM THE STREETS FROM THE PROTESTORS" protest? we'd easily get double or triple the ammount of people you got at the stupid anti war demos... i mean imagine there was someone at the dublin anti war demo on sat from sinn fein suggesting its wrong to use armed agression to meet political goals!! what a JOKE!!

MeatProduct

Originally posted by Morphéus
we'd easily get double or triple the ammount of people you got at the stupid anti war demos...

Wow, well done. "stupid anti war demos". I'm impressed.

Nick

Sleipnir

Aragh I wouldn't worry about these protesters.
The protestors are mostly students who only believe in these things for as long as they're in college and need to feel more important then being a student usually allows.

After three years being a protestor they all want the same things; mortgages, BMW's, holidays in the sun and widescreen TV's.

mike65

Originally posted by Sleipnir

After three years being a protestor they all want the same things; mortgages, BMW's, holidays in the sun and widescreen TV's.

Soooo true.

Mike.

ps I'd give the mayday riots a wide brith this year as they'd be the perfect event for an Al Qaeda cell to make a big splash with.

Mike.

jill_valentine

Flucking Mayday is depressing from all sides. The Left provoke trouble and then whinge about it, and the Right make ill-concieved overreactions that provoke the Left into provoking trouble. The would-be Mayday marchers need to realise that a) Many guards sympathise but have to do what they swore to. b) Nobody is going to really listen to what you are trying to say if you say while throwing things through a McDonalds' window. The Right need to realise that a) The marchers really are trying to say something and they feel like nobody's listening. b) If they overreact, it'll be counterproductive. And everybody needs to remember that the opposition has a right to express their opinions, however dumb they sound.

redflaremist

Originally posted by gandalf
OK a couple of things here. You only seem to use this site when you want to "advertise" one of your meetings.

I could say that's because the level of intelligent and constructive debate (see posts below) that stems from posts on this board is questionable. http://www.thumped.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=12161 is a better example of people being critical but intelligent about it.

Originally posted by gandalf
I am not a right winger I would be centre left if anything but I do find some of things that are planned too confrontational. Painting private property is a crime and by doing so you are creating a potential flashpoint with the authorities, is that the aim? And please don't say its a symbolic protest because any intelligent person can see it is going to cause a problem.

Of course its a symbolic protest. The red paint is a symbol for the blood of the people that the US Military has killed over the past four decades in various wars and campaigns, with the help of Irish businesses and institutions. You think that Iraq and Afghanistan were the first wars that Shannon was used as a refueling base for? Vietnam, even Korea... Surely that's a crime.

(The smart alec answer to this is of course: "Painting private property" is NOT a crime - I painted my house last week in broad daylight and nobody called the cops on me... ho ho..)

Originally posted by gandalf
Also I see no reference on that site to peaceful protest only, infact the links about "protecting yourself against tear gas" and "protecting yourself against a baton charge" suggest that you expect trouble, does that mean that you advocate violent protest and destruction of property as a means to get your point across?
I am also curious are you still a student? Or do you work for a living?

Nowhere on the site advocates violent protest. I hope there is no "trouble" at any of the actions but those links are there for people to prepare themselves in case the Gardai decide to beat people up or attack them without provocation - its happened before. Those links are defensive tactics and not offensive in any way.

And lastly, what difference does it make what I do for a living? Either way, if I was unemployed, working in a factory, a student, sitting behing a PC all day in an office, or whatever, the message within each of these actions remains the same, and also, it really is absolutely none of your business - I dont care what anyone on a bulletin board does for a living but I'm willing to listen to a debate that doesnt descend to personal insults, inquries, and derision (or "flaming", I think you call it).

jill_valentine

I felt that a certain degree of violent protest, while not directly advocated, was implied to be acceptable by the site.


Oh my god. Its happened. I've turned into my mother already...

Sleipnir

The 'constructive debate' you mention on thumped.com is decidedly one-sided and therefore not worthy of the title "debate"
Besides, Boards.ie is open to discussion of all the facets of life, not just one particular subject. That would tend to get boring very quickly.

I could say that's because the level of intelligent and constructive debate (see posts below) that stems from posts on this board is questionable.

If you can't take the heat as they say.

ReefBreak

redflaremist,

Your Europe Without Borders campaign is possibly the most naive, ill-thought I've seen yet. Most people know the values that immigration and multi-culturalism can bring to Ireland, I don't need to repeat them here. But your organisation has taken such an extreme view (that there should be no borders, and no immigration controls whatsoever) that you've almost removed yourself and your views from any hint of reality. If fact, you're so extreme, you're practically on a par with the Immigration Control Platform in terms of your ability to gather popular support.

The rest of the May Day "Celebrations" are the usual list of Flavour of the Month Left-Wing issues - anti-bin tax, reclaim the city, etc. You'll get the usual band of communists, rich students and crusties attending, while about 99% of everyone else will either laugh at you, or ignore you.

jill_valentine

See, you've gone and proved him right there. His point was that debates here tend to descend to attacks on the poster rather than the issue. The above posts are intensely condescending, and insulting to him personally. If you want to attack his debating techniques, thats fine but...

ReefBreak

Actually, I disagree - my post concerned the issues that they're promoting, rather than the poster. I don't see where I attacked the poster.

jill_valentine

Sorry, your post appearred while I was typing.:D

bonkey

Originally posted by jill_valentine
His point was that debates here tend to descend to attacks on the poster rather than the issue.

And my point would be that there is a facility for complaining about such activity to the moderators who's job it is to then decide whether or not action is needed.

Now, seeing as I've been a moderator on this forum since its creation, I can say with some authority that there has never been a significant amount of posts reported on any thread, let alone one which pertains to RTS and/or other such events....which tend to be highly busy in nature.

Secondly, debates here do not tend to descend into attacks on the poster. They may descend into attacks on the ideology, but thats a seperate issue. How do I know this? Because its my job to make sure that they don't.

See, you've gone and proved him right there. His point was that debates here tend to descend to attacks on the poster rather than the issue. The above posts are intensely condescending, and insulting to him personally.

I'm looking at the posts between your previous post and that one, and I can't see a single one which attacks the poster. They attack the ideology, the thinking behind the protest, and many other issues, but not the person offering them.

Leaving that aside, however, I would also point out that amongst all of those highly insulting posts, there isn't a single one which either you or the person you are defending have seen fit to actually report as being unacceptable to you.

You think you're insulted? I'm insulted that you could be so condescending as to come in here and complain about how this board fails to live up to the rules and conditions which it sets, and yet couldn't be bothered using the system in place which is designed to allow the board to live up to said rules you are bemoaning the failure of.

Given that I'm responsible for both the creation and the enforcement of those rules, I take your bemoaning their failure coupled with your demonstrated unwillingness to use them before bemoaning their failure to be incredibly insulting.

And to top it all off, having singularly failed to make use of the system available to you, and yet complain about its failure....here you are seeking to encourage others to get involved in a fight against another system!!!

Tell me - is this also a system you have decided to fight against without bothering to give it a chance to see if working within the framework of the system can lead to improvement, or are we here on this forum just a special case in that way???

Or am I being too insulting and condescending for you by presuming to take an attribute you've already clearly demonstrated and applying it to a comparable situation?

Let me make this clear. This is a non-ideologically-aligned board. You are as welcome to come here and discuss/defend your point of view as anyone else is.

If you choose that you don't want to come here and discuss things, then thats your perogative. But if you make that decision, then you are most certainly not welcome to use this board as a location to post your advertising.

jc

jc

jill_valentine

Whoa. Thats an awful lot of English. But I'll give it a shot.

Firstly, if I thought the post justified reporting it, I would have done so. But I don't, so I didn't. I don't believe in reporting posts unless they're something flamey, which they aren't. I'm not attacking your competence as a moderator.

Secondly, since this thread has become something of a debate, points raised in it are subject to question. I questioned the validity of the responses in the expectation of posts to explain those positions more or to question my own response, rather than to condemn everybody to everlasting hellfire for ever, and ever amen. I'm willing to change my stance if somebody can change my mind. So if I appeared condescending, I apologise, I'm used to arguements being resolved verbally among the posters themselves, from other forums where the mods take a less hands-on approach.

Though I'll add that one of the above posts appears to have been edited...Something about a whipped puppy as I recall.

bonkey

Originally posted by jill_valentine
Firstly, if I thought the post justified reporting it, I would have done so. But I don't, so I didn't.

Sure. But our rules say that if you have a problem with a post, report it and do not reply to it. The converse of this must also hold true - if you do not report, and do reply, then you must not have a problem with the post.

Now that simply doesn't gel with your and Redflamerest's previous comments, where the offered reason not to engage in discussion the allegation that the discussions do exactly what the rules say is not acceptable.

Now which is it? Either they're a problem, or they're not.

I'm not attacking your competence as a moderator.

Yes, you are. You are complaining that this board falls short on the very things that the rules say is not acceptable. We do not allow personal attacks, and you say that conversations descend into that.

So clearly, the moderators must be failing in their implementation of those rules, or the rules themselves are not sufficient - which again is a criticism of the moderators seeing as we wrote them.

So I'm afraid you are attacking my competence unless, as I said, you wish to revise your position, and no longer support the notion that these particular failures are a valid excuse not to engage in debate here,

I questioned the validity of the responses

Did you? Lets just recap on what you said :

See, you've gone and proved him right there. His point was that debates here tend to descend to attacks on the poster rather than the issue.

I see no question there.

In fact, I would dare say that alleging something proves something else automatically precludes the possibility of it being a question.

So if I appeared condescending, I apologise,

Apology accepted.

I'm used to arguements being resolved verbally among the posters themselves, from other forums where the mods take a less hands-on approach.

Now I'm getting more and more confused.

1) You allege that this board descends into personal insult etc., despite such things being clearly against our rules.

2) You admit that the mods here have a more hands-on approach than other forums (fora?).

3) And yet are trying to tell me that you are not attacking the competence of the moderators here?

I can't see any way that 1 and 2 can both be correct unless you are attacking the competence of the mods. We interfere more often, succeed less, but are not incompetent?

Though I'll add that one of the above posts appears to have been edited...Something about a whipped puppy as I recall.

It hasn't been reported....nor quoted...nor did I see it before it was edited. I'm not doubting you, but there's not much that I can do.

Maybe someone had a dose of cop-on and realised that what they had posted wasn't the smartest thing to be saying. It does happen frmo time to time - I'm prone to it myself on occasion.

jc

<edit>I've realise some things I attributed to jill were, in fact, from Redflamerest. I've reworded accordingly<edit>

Guy:Incognito

Any chance of the bitching bout the forum being put to one side for a second, im interested in a decent response from the original poster. Myself and a couple of others responded to points on the site s/he linked to but as yet s/he has yet to actually respond to the issues raised. How does s/he defend the arguement that no borders would lead to caos/ downfall of the economy? not to mention the fact that they are proposing criminal damage by painting private property. How would s/he feel if i decided to paint his/her house a colour of my choice because i feel i have a reason. Or maybe if they have a car that has cost them a lot of money and i decide to paint that?

Tommy Vercetti

Preparing for street demonstrations
As we have said above in the call for people to participate in the actions, everyone is welcome to join in regardless of their age, gender, ethnicity or background. We respect diversity, and people from the Grassroots Dublin Network will also respect people's decisions regarding which level of action they want to pursue. All choices will be accomodated in every environment - we will be looking out for everyone and making sure that those who want to observe from a safe zone will be protected.

Perhaps the poster would like to elaborate on what exactly the above means/implies....

Do you condone any "level of action"?
How do you propose to accomodate all choices?
Will you be providing weapons of some sort?
And what's all this about a "safe zone"?

ReefBreak

I don't think the poster (redflaremist) has ever actually discussed any of the issues he's advertised on Boards.ie. Perhaps he fears real debate, rather than a one-sided agree-fest that would dominate any of their meetings.

Redleslie

Originally posted by ReefBreak
redflaremist,

Your Europe Without Borders campaign is possibly the most naive, ill-thought I've seen yet.

Dunno bout that. A few decades ago the idea of the EU would have sounded quite inconceivably mad and dangerous but there it is. On May 1st another 10 states will join, while Turkey and the Russians also want in. So there'll be what, 750 million (?) people free to move, trade and work freely. Can anyone say for definite that the EU, or whatever it'll change its name to in the future, won't keep expanding its borders over the next few decades? Personally I think that the concept of the nation state is in rapid decline anyway and is in the process of being replaced by corporate power on the one hand and smaller more autonomous communities on the other.

sovtek

Originally posted by Redleslie
Dunno bout that. A few decades ago the idea of the EU would have sounded quite inconceivably mad and dangerous but there it is. On May 1st another 10 states will join, while Turkey and the Russians also want in. So there'll be what, 750 million (?) people free to move, trade and work freely. Can anyone say for definite that the EU, or whatever it'll change its name to in the future, won't keep expanding its borders over the next few decades? Personally I think that the concept of the nation state is in rapid decline anyway and is in the process of being replaced by corporate power on the one hand and smaller more autonomous communities on the other.

I must be very naive but I find it interesting that people are so scared of open borders while companies move around the globe virtually at will.
It's actually what humans have done for most of the time we've been on this planet.

pork99

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Perhaps the poster would like to elaborate on what exactly the above means/implies....

Do you condone any "level of action"?
How do you propose to accomodate all choices?
Will you be providing weapons of some sort?
And what's all this about a "safe zone"?

Let's hope the Gardai get their act together this time.

Not like that May Day fiasco a couple of years ago. While I enjoy seeing a hippy getting a good beating as the next man what worries me is that the cops lost control. They were just lashing out at anything.

Compare that to the way the Metropolitan Police have handled these events in London over the last couple of years. Its restrained, disciplined, they are in control not the protestors who get themselves corralled into Oxford Circus where they can't do any harm.

If I was an anarcist troublemaker and I had seen any video of May Day Dublin 2002 I would be looking
forward to getting over here and stirring serious sh|t because on that evidence I would believe that the cops here would not be able to handle another Gothenburg or Turin.

ReefBreak

It appears that redflaremist's website has been getting some attention from the media:
http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=52917

Is it too late for me to sign up for the Garda riot squad? Can't think of a better way to spend a weekend than baton charge a bunch of violent anarchists/commies/students.

Sparks

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Is it too late for me to sign up for the Garda riot squad? Can't think of a better way to spend a weekend than baton charge a bunch of violent anarchists/commies/students.

Maybe it's just me having absolutely no sense of humour over an event where I wound up a cointoss away from having my head cracked, but why is it not acceptable to say "me and my mates are going to beat up an american if the secret service shoots an irishman" but acceptable to say what you just said?

ReefBreak

Perhaps if you beat up the American that actually shot the Irishman, I wouldn't object - depending on the circumstances obviously (e.g. if it was an RIRA man that was trying to assasinate a country's president, then I'd object). But if you just picked a random Yank and decided to beat him up, then I'd have a problem.

My comment above was pretty much tongue in cheek. I imagine there are plenty of Gardai that are looking forward to the Mayday weekend, as they've been involved in training for it over the last couple of months. It remains to be seen who will be responsible for starting a riot (if a riot does start), but I don't think it's a coincidence that wherever the anarchists travel, trouble and violence always, always, follows.

shotamoose

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I don't think it's a coincidence that wherever the anarchists travel, trouble and violence always, always, follows.

This is simply untrue. Unless by "always, always " you mean "sometimes, sometimes". I know that doesn't sound as cool, but I've still got this weird belief that factual accuracy is more important than rhetorical impact.

Sparks

Originally posted by ReefBreak
It remains to be seen who will be responsible for starting a riot (if a riot does start), but I don't think it's a coincidence that wherever the anarchists travel, trouble and violence always, always, follows.

That hardly seems accurate. And it's a poor reflection on us if we can't accept alternative points of view, within the obvious limits set by the requirement of not committing acts of physical violence against others.
After all, if your model of the universe is the right one, it ought to withstand some criticism, right RB?

D

Personnally I believe that if violence does occurr then the true meaning of the protest is diminished and pushed aside. Instead of the media reporting on the support that open boarders, human rights and civil liberties have garnered from the people they instead report on how a group of unruly people got out of hand and caused vandalism and cost the state even more of the taxpayers money. This reduces the support these groups have. I think that it is a terrible thing to have a peaceful group's hard work being reduced to nothing by a "hard core" of people so frustrated with the system that they feel their only option is to lash out violently.

TomF

I'd say a good way to spend at least part of the day is to attend Mass and say a few prayers for peace, and think of the "Queen of the Angels, Queen of the May."

Sparks

Originally posted by TomF
I'd say a good way to spend at least part of the day is to attend Mass and say a few prayers for peace, and think of the "Queen of the Angels, Queen of the May."

And what about the atheists, buddhists, taoists, shintoists, hindus, muslims, pagans and others?
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Sparks
And what about the atheists, buddhists, taoists, shintoists, hindus, muslims, pagans and others?
:rolleyes:

Well presumably they could meditate/attend their own services or simply take a drive out the country and marvel at the wonders of nature and the start of the summer season

Sparks

It would sure beat what the Irish Independent is reporting :

FIVE hundred troops are being given special riot training in preparation for the massive security operation for the May Day events to highlight Ireland's EU presidency. Senior Garda and Army officers were last night finalising the detailed blueprint aimed at curbing violence being planned by international and homegrown agitators. It will be the biggest joint operation to maintain law and order in more than a decade.

All garda leave and rest days have been cancelled and more than 4,000 members of the force will be on duty to police the celebrations over the May weekend. International police forces are supplying vital intelligence to Garda headquarters in the Phoenix Park on the movements of known anarchists and troublemakers who are expected to travel to Dublin to cause mayhem on the streets. The wide range of events to mark the official enlargement of the EU has put extra pressure on security resources available.

But last night senior officers were satisfied that their blueprint could cope with large-scale protests and provide protection for the influx of EU leaders. Gardai have already trained 1,200 personnel in public order duties with one unit assigned to each region and most of these will be deployed over the flashpoint weekend. The soldiers, drawn from barracks across the country, are being specially trained at the Garda College in Templemore and at the Curragh. The troops will be given specific roles in providing protection against the demonstrators expected to converge on Dublin from all over the country and other EU states, rather than merely acting as back-up for the gardai. They have been supplied with new riot gear similar to the equipment currently being used by gardai.

Army engineers have been placed on stand-by at the request of the gardai and may be asked to erect fencing at Farmleigh where the EU leaders will meet and at other key venues likely to be targeted for protests. Gardai, meanwhile, are examining the range of equipment available to them to deal with widespread street disturbances. Water cannons will be available in the event of major trouble.

The financial cost of the Garda operation has not yet been totted up but will be met partly from a special budget of €7.5m provided in the current estimates for the Department of Justice for overtime to cope with the extra duties arising from the EU presidency.

For the past seven weeks a network of Irish street activists has been preparing protests to mar the May celebrations. Many of the organisers of the protests were involved in the May Day clashes which resulted in violence on Dublin streets in 2002 and in last year's anti-war confrontations with gardai in Shannon and in the capital. They are planning a series of measures from Friday, April 30 to Monday, May 3 to "focus on symbols of all that is wrong with the EU, militarism, neo-liberalism, fortress Europe and the EU police state". The organisers have pledged that the EU leaders will "face resistance" and said it was intended to highlight local issues and campaigns linked to the broader problems of corporate globalisation and the EU.

You know, I've seen newspapers get biased before, and the Irish Independent is pretty much the lowest of the non-tabloid newspapers (face it, after the carravagio/berlusconi story, they have as much credibility as the Sunday World), but this really is a new low. I'm not sure which is worse - the possibility that the story may be accurate about the number of troops and gardai being planned on, or the sheer hatchet job they're doing on anyone who shows up for May Day!

Sand

Surely its reassuring to see the amount of security personnel and training thats been assigned to policing these demonstrators? It lessens the chance of an incident causing panic or moving out of control if the security forces have absolute superiority and confidence in their plan to keep order - if they didnt an ill advised baton charge or over agressive response the the provocation that troublemakers *will* put the gardai under could lead to all out riots.

As for the hatchet job the paper didnt say all protestors were toublemakers, it said the gardai were watching for troublemakers who were coming and that previous protests have led to widespread violence.

Sparks

Originally posted by Sand
Surely its reassuring to see the amount of security personnel and training thats been assigned to policing these demonstrators?

No, it's not. Firstly, deploying Irish troops against Irish civilians sets my teeth on edge. Secondly, I remember the video footage of the last time the riot squad got called on, and highly trained wouldn't be my description of that bunch. Thirdly, I've seen no evidence that these "troublemakers" exist and are a serious threat in this country, and finally, this is costing a shedload of cash that we could better spend elsewhere.

As for the hatchet job the paper didnt say all protestors were toublemakers, it said the gardai were watching for troublemakers who were coming and that previous protests have led to widespread violence.

Did you read a different article? "violence being planned by international and homegrown agitators", "known anarchists and troublemakers who are expected to travel to Dublin to cause mayhem on the streets","providing protection against the demonstrators expected to converge on Dublin from all over the country and other EU states", "a network of Irish street activists has been preparing protests to mar the May celebrations" - nowhere is there evidence of any of this, those involved in organising the may day activities are denying that this is anywhere near reality, and there's no mention of the ordinary revellers. And this isn't an isolated article, the Indo has been taking this line for a while now. (And for those who don't remember, this is the paper which puts so much effort into verifying its stories that a P45 joke saying that Berlusconi was demanding the return of a Carravagio painting - a joke dismissed by just about every other media source - got not only covered, but covered on the Indo's front page with an accompanying front-page editorial saying that it was time to rein in Berlusconi's belligerence! You trust the Irish Independent's sources at your peril, it would seem....)

D

While I'm not saying that every protester goes out to make trouble, there is a minority that sees it as their only option.

Sparks

Originally posted by D
While I'm not saying that every protester goes out to make trouble, there is a minority that sees it as their only option.

So you'll judge the majority of a group based on the actions of a criminal few? Not a good idea. A brief example:

While I'm not saying that every man on the internet is a paedophile hunting children, there is a minority that are, so let's ban the internet.

Originally posted by Sparks
No, it's not. Firstly, deploying Irish troops against Irish civilians sets my teeth on edge.
surely they are getting paid anyway and their function is to protect the peace and property, they arent there to drive tanks into the bulk of the Irish people Tianamen square style...you are being melodramatic.

Secondly, I remember the video footage of the last time the riot squad got called on, and highly trained wouldn't be my description of that bunch.
Yes mistakes were made,lessons were learned from that one. I'll be on here complaining , the same as yourself probably if the same mistakes are repeated...I very much doubt that they will be though.
Thirdly, I've seen no evidence that these "troublemakers" exist and are a serious threat in this country,
The sunday mirror reported last week that Indymedia were advertising for all and sundry to come to Dublin to cause mahem.
and finally, this is costing a shedload of cash that we could better spend elsewhere.
Thats no different to what has to be spent relatively speaking policing these sorts of events world wide.
The problem in this instance, is that we are currently holders of the presidency of the E.U and as such apparently we are to be the target of a more organised less indigenous may day protest.

Our own RTS crowd at least are supposed to be peacefull in nature, street party style.

Sparks

Originally posted by Earthman
surely they are getting paid anyway and their function is to protect the peace and property,

Frankly, I'd put people's health above both.

they arent there to drive tanks into the bulk of the Irish people Tianamen square style...you are being melodramatic.

No, I'm remembering precedence.

Yes mistakes were made,lessons were learned from that one.

You're thinking of the gardai on may day in dame street, not the riot squad.

The sunday mirror reported last week that Indymedia were advertising for all and sundry to come to Dublin to cause mahem.

After looking on indymedia, this is the closest I can find to that claim:
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63980

(Need I point out that I restrict my appreciation of the Sunday Mirror to it's catbox-lining qualities?)

Originally posted by Sparks
No, I'm remembering precedence.

You referred to the army, (who by the way are getting paid anyway...)
Now tell me where is the exact precedence?

Sparks

Originally posted by Earthman
You referred to the army, (who by the way are getting paid anyway...)
Now tell me where is the exact precedence?

Of a well-trained army unit opening fire on their own civilians? You jest, surely!

Boston

Originally posted by Sparks
Of a well-trained army unit opening fire on their own civilians? You jest, surely!

They won't be armed, And to be honest I'd be more worried of a poorly trained police force opening fire on civilians.

D

Originally posted by Sparks
So you'll judge the majority of a group based on the actions of a criminal few? Not a good idea. A brief example:

While I'm not saying that every man on the internet is a paedophile hunting children, there is a minority that are, so let's ban the internet.

I was not judging the majority of the group, I even said that i thought the majority were peaceful. Also nowhere in my post did I suggest that the parade should be banned. You are over reacting, getting defensive and putting words in my mouth by miss-quoting me.