Same-sex marriage not under discussion by Irish government

Yoda

I would marry my partner. But do I want to be a poster-child for Gay Marriage in Ireland?

I suspect there are many other people who think this. I don't defend it necessarily. But I can see why people are happy to lay all of it on the feet of David Norris.

falteringstar

Marriage is perhaps predominatly a religious institution, but gay people are religious too! Civil marriage is provided by the state for those not wishing to have a religious wedding but, those of us who are religious (whatever denomination) could always have our own private religious ceremony (its not unheard of preists giving relationship blessings to same sex couples) and then have it legally recognised by having a civil marriage (or perhaps combining the two!).

We mustn't blame the Catholic church as a whole, not all of them are homophobic or antigay, just quite a lot of old and conservative people at the top! So for those of us who would like to have a religious ceremony and commit in front of our god or gods, it is possible, and without us necessarily taking our 'custom' else where.

If I have made any sense at all!?!

falteringstar

I dont think its fair of us to leave it all up to David Norris, Yoda. For all we know thats just how everyone has been thinking all these years, that someone else will do it, is it any wonder then that aren't allowed to marry, etc! I think its time that everyone, gay, lesbian, bi, trans and friendly got up and did something, anything. Its unfair to leave it all in one mans hands!

If i had a partner i for one would go into dublin this week and apply for a marriage! I think if alot of people did so the government would have to stand up and take notice.

yellum

(Okay I'm not attacking anyone personally, this is a general rant)

It makes me so fucking mad that gay people are so fucking content with their lot.

What's their lot ?

To live in their isolated communities hiding away from the rest of the world ?

Afraid to hold hands, kiss and be themselves apart from indoors in certain places ?

Afraid to speak about going for a meal with their boyfriend at work because they're not out ?

To not be able to marry their loved one ?

To know that if your partner gets sick they have no visitation rights to see their partner ?

To know if their partner dies they can be evicted from the house they shared etc. etc.

What we have right now is substandard, we should not be content. The attitude of "it doesn't affect me" is too prevalent in the LGB community.

The fact that some people only think about themselves in these matters is disgusting. Just because some of us are not going to get married next week doesn't mean we shouldn't care about those that do. We are doing this for the future, for the greater good of the community NOW.

I was talking to a guy tonight who didn't know who Davis Norris was. I explained that he should be thanking David Norris daily. If it wasn't for Norris a short few years ago taking the Irish Government to the European Human Rights Court we would all be classed as criminals.

We's still be in underground pubs and clubs getting raided by bigoted Gardai who can act like bullies knowing we can't complain because its us thats doing wrong not them. We'd have none of the (limted) rights we have now.

This time round with the Civil rights bill its Norris is doing all the work AGAIN, not because he's some glory hound but because he is the only one who seems to give a damn and is brave enough to go "No, its not enough".

I don't want to get married now (even though I have agreed with someone I'll marry him in the future) but I do want marriage now. I want to have the right to go to a registry office and marry the guy I love.

[end rant]

Damien.

falteringstar

Yellum, Im in complete agreement with you! Im only 20, no way in hell i wanna get married now or even in the next 5 or so years, but i do some day. But I want the right to do so now!

I didnt know who David Norris was either until I read about him on this forum a few weeks ago, and I felt like that was something I really should know, in fact i wonder how i didnt know? But i feel sick that upto and including now the gay community has left everthing in his hands. Its time we all did something even if its only something small, like all of us sending a email, or a letter to the minister of equality and justice, questioning our tds on their opinions and demanding they do something, Rory Quinn said in a 2001 interview in GI he was so surprised we havent yet stood up and asked for marriage!

yellum

Well this activism thread covers areas some of feel need to be tackled. I'd appreciate your input too.

Heh, I like Ruairi Quinns statement, but did he too just leave it up to someone else ?

falteringstar

er.. i dunno, but it cant help not being in power!!

Um he said he has alot of gay friends who wish to marry, however more recently he said he'd give his support to non marital partnerships. Which (sorry its just my opinion) ill never be happy with, its just not enough for me!

Ill check out your activism thread 2m im tired now!

yellum

[falteringstar - Check your Private Messages in the User CP ]


I'm not knocking the guy and maybe he has a heart of gold but they all state they'd support it, even McDowell said that but a letter that he sent to Yoda, printed at the start of the thread was a little different.

Support is good but it depends on the support. Support at the start is much better than when the battle is pretyt much won anyway.

But thats why we need to get people motivated to do something, and as Dr_M said in another thread, not just the LGB community but the heterosexual community too. It needs to involved everyone.

yellum

FF TDs differ on legal status for gay couples
Arthur Beesley, Political Reporter

Fianna Fáil TDs have expressed resistance to the concept of State recognition for gay couples but a number said they would support such recognition if it did not have the same legal standing as marriage.

The divergent views on the subject followed remarks by the Minister for Justice, Mr McDowell, who said at the weekend that "right across the Government I sense the view that there will have to be some sort of recognition for civil partnerships". But he said such recognition should not be on a par with marriage.

While a spokesman for Mr McDowell said the Minister was signalling that the matter would have to be addressed, the Taoiseach, Mr Ahern, said yesterday that there was no proposal before Government. "If he brings it forward it will be discussed but it hasn't been discussed," Mr Ahern said.

With some sources claiming there was little appetite at Cabinet level to address the issue, some TDs in Fianna Fáil were quick to state that the issue should not be a priority for the Government. However, the two Fianna Fáil European election candidates in Dublin were among those who expressed support for the recognition of civil partnerships.

Mr Eoin Ryan TD said he supported the concept of recognition for inheritance and tax purposes and this stance was backed by the Equality Authority. He had reservations about the granting of marital status to gay couples.

The Dublin Lord Mayor, Mr Royston Brady, said he would be "on the same page" as Mr McDowell on the issue of civil partnerships. He said the discussion should be informed by a sense of equality.

Many of the other Fianna Fáil figures contacted by The Irish Times expressed resistance to the concept of civil partnerships.

The Dublin TD Mr Jim Glennon said he had not come across the matter as TD and he did not know "how far up the priority list it should be". Mr Glennon added: "I don't have a closed mind on the issue but I'd need to be persuaded of the requirement."

The Tipperary South TD Mr Noel Davern said it was open to any gay person to leave their property to their partner "if they have no other commitments" to children or a previous spouse in marriage. But Mr Davern said he had "grave reservations" with suggestions that the State should provide legal recognition similar to marriage to gay couples and said the matter was not a priority for the Government at this time.

The Carlow TD, Mr M.J. Nolan, said: "I don't see any urgency to introduce amending legislation in order to recognise same sex unions. I don't know of any individuals or organisations who are campaigning for such legislation. My own view is that I don't see this as a priority for the Government at this time. There are far more pressing issues."

Those supporting the concept of civil unions included the Dublin TD Mr Michael Mulcahy. He said: "I think the State should assist gay couples to be able to transfer and share property in the normal way."

The Cork TD Mr John Dennehy said he would not have a problem with enshrining inheritance and social welfare rights in legislation. "I would have a concern about calling it marriage, equating it with traditional marriage," he added.




© The Irish Times

yellum

Originally said by Dept of Justice
The position is that there are no plans to legislate for same-sex marriage. However, the Law Reform Commission is preparing a Consultation Paper on the law on cohabitees and the Minister looks forward to the publication of this Paper.

The Law Reform Commission states:

Cohabitees, Rights and Duties of

In its Consultation Paper to be published in 2004, the Commission is examining the law in relation to the rights and duties of cohabitees, that is, persons who are not married but live together. According to the 1996 Census, at that time there were about 30,000 such couples. The question (which has already been faced in some particular areas, like tax and welfare) is whether the law should recognise this relationship.

The issue has various legal implications in the field of: the rights to and transfer of property; enduring powers of attorney; life assurance; succession rights; and provision for children.

A central feature of this work is firstly the definition of cohabitation to be recommended and secondly how the existence of any particular relationship is to be ratified or recognised.

Yoda

Yellum,

What you quoted above from Fianna Fáil says to me that we're going to have a tough, bitter fight ahead of us to achieve full equality in terms of partnership rights. It is clear that at least some members of Fianna Fáil do not believe that homosexuals should be treated equally with heterosexuals.

yellum

Nobody ever said it was ever going to be easy.

My family put a lot of work into John Dennehy's campaign. I think I shall be having a word.

qwertyphobia

"There is Civil Marriage and because it is non-religious it does not fall under the equality authorities exemption so it must follow the equality rulings.

But how do you challenge this ? Go to a registry office and attempt to marry your partner and then if refused take this to the Equality Authority ? I think they might only look at your case if you have gone to this trouble. They don't seem to be much on "theory" "

Ok this got me thinking and i got some leagl opinion on this

It's a non-starter leagl wise. The equality authority has no right to take action against Statutes. A recent example is the issue of social welfare entitlments it was not law that was blocking LGBT's getting their bus passes just policy so the equality Authority could act on that, once the minister makes it law as she is doing the Equality Authority can't touch it.

I still think it should be raised in the media because it's a usefull way to highlight the double standards but it won't go anywhere leagly. It would also go some way to clearly showing that all the rights enshrined in marrige have nothing to do with the church but to do with the civil cermoney. Which in this state unfortunetly is hidden a bit by the fact that the church also acts in that role for most weddings in Ireland

Yoda

This assumes that there is actually a statute saying that two people who marry must be of opposite sex. The Constitution doesn't say so. The forms you fill out for a marriage licence don't ask your sex. Currently I have a query in to the Registrar General asking for the specific statute. If there is one, it is that which will have to be overturned. McDowell has said that there are "constitutional problems" with the idea of same-sex marriage. I have a query in to him asking him to be specific as to what they are. I have also asked a friend who is an expert on the Constitution if he thinks it (in itself) bans same-sex marriage. He says he does not think that it does.

yellum

McDowell is a weasel. He passed the buck to the Law Reform Commission when Yoda mailed him about Same-sex Marriage stating:

"The position is that there are no plans to legislate for same-sex marriage. However, the Law Reform Commission is preparing a Consultation Paper on the law on cohabitees and the Minister looks forward to the publication of this Paper."

Well the paper is out:

http://www.lawreform.ie/Cohabitees%20CP%20%20April%202004.pdf

This bit is worth noting:

This Consultation Paper concentrates on the rights and duties of cohabitees and does not analyse whether a form of partnership registration scheme should be introduced. The Consultation Paper states that this issue involves complex policy matters which merits separate discussion, though it notes that any such scheme, such as recently proposed by the British government, would also include the specific issues dealt with in this Consultation Paper

Oh look, let's have ANOTHER report. *sigh* At least it's getting there and if we gear ourselves up they might actually ask us to consult. Full text of press release:

This Consultation Paper makes substantial recommendations for reform of the law concerning cohabitees. The reforms being proposed would apply to ‘qualified cohabitees,’ defined as persons who live together in a ‘marriage like’ relationship for a continuous period of three years or, where there is a child of the relationship, for two years. This includes relationships between same-sex or opposite-sex couples, neither of whom are married to each other or to any other person. The Commission argues that the exclusion of any person who is married is necessitated by Article 41 of the Constitution, which deals with the provisions in respect of the Family. Other forms of domestic relationship, such as that which exists between friends or family members who cohabit, are also excluded from the definition.

This Consultation Paper deals with the rights and duties of cohabitees under a number of headings, including property rights, succession, maintenance, social welfare, pensions, taxation, health care, and domestic violence. In addition, the Paper recommends that cohabitees should be encouraged to regulate their financial and property affairs by means of co-ownership agreements.

This Consultation Paper concentrates on the rights and duties of cohabitees and does not analyse whether a form of partnership registration scheme should be introduced. The Consultation Paper states that this issue involves complex policy matters which merits separate discussion, though it notes that any such scheme, such as recently proposed by the British government, would also include the specific issues dealt with in this Consultation Paper.

The Commission proposes that ‘qualified cohabitees’ should be given the right to apply to Court for certain rights and financial reliefs following the termination of the cohabiting relationship. Among the specific provisional recommendations are:

* the right to apply for a property adjustment order in exceptional circumstances;

* the right to apply for relief under succession law where provision has not been made in the will of the deceased or under the intestacy rules;

* the right to apply for a maintenance order in exceptional circumstances;

* The extension of the definition of cohabitation in social welfare legislation to include those in same-sex relationships;

* that a relationship of ‘qualified cohabitees’ should be recognised by the taxation code;

* that ‘qualified cohabitees’ should be notice parties for the purposes of an Enduring Power of Attorney;

* that ‘qualified cohabitees’ be given greater recognition in the context of health care situations and decision-making;

* that ‘qualified cohabitees’ be included within the definition of dependants for the purposes of the legislation dealing with civil actions for wrongful death.

In addition, the Paper proposes a number of changes to the Domestic Violence Act 1996. Among the specific recommendations are:

* That the residency requirement in respect of barring orders for cohabiting couples of 6 out of the previous 9 months should be reduced to 3 out of the previous 12 months;

* That the residency requirement be removed for cohabitees seeking a barring order where they have the sole ownership or tenancy in the property;

* That the residency requirement in respect of safety orders should be abolished.

In order that the Commission’s Report may be made available as soon as possible, those who wish to make their submissions are requested to do so in writing or by e-mail to the Commission by 30 September 2004. Make a Submission

Memnoch

you guys should start a group,
like ireland offline, but for gays.

I guess there are probably already gay rights groups out there,

but being able to use boards.ie as a discussion base and using the internet to spread awareness, discussion and activisim might go a long way towards furthering your cause?

again i appologise in advance for my blatent ignorance on this issue...
just saying if it hasn't already been done, might be a good idea?

ixoy

Here's an article from today's Irish Independent about the Church's latest response to marriage proposals URL=http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1174801&issue_id=10815]link[/URL:

Church-State clash looms on gay unions law

THE Catholic hierarchy has put itself on a possible collision course with both the State and the legal establishment yesterday when it criticised proposals to legalise gay unions and to give cohabiting couples many of the same rights as married couples.

Dr Sean Brady, the Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of all Ireland, also expressed "surprise" at comments by Social and Family Affairs Minister Mary Coughlan that the State should not favour marriage over other family forms.

This was the first major intervention by the bishops in the family policy debate for some years.

Delivering the keynote address at yesterday's conference called "Supporting Marriage and Family Life", Archbishop Brady said that the Church "has both a duty and a right to teach and act in defence of the primacy of the natural institutions of marriage and the family".

He added: "It is also for this reason that it cannot and should not apologise for insisting that other forms of relationship are not of the same nature and status as that of marriage and the family. The looming debate about the level of recognition that is appropriate for what are called 'de facto' unions makes this an important and urgent issue."

Responding to questions at the end of the seminar, the archbishop admitted he was "surprised" that Ms Coughlan had said that no special treatment should be given to marriage.

"This is very strange coming from a Government minister, especially given the Constitution, which is very clear on the special status of marriage. We need to debate and discuss the value of the family."

In his speech, Dr Brady noted that "so called 'de facto' unions have been taking on special importance in recent years".

Without explicitly referring to last week's proposal by the Law Reform Commission to put cohabitation, including relationships involving gay couples, on a more equal footing with marriage, he said: "Some recent initiatives propose the institutional recognition of 'de facto' unions and even their equivalences to families, which have their origin in a marriage commitment.

"It is important to draw attention to the damage that such recognition would represent for the identity of marriage as traditionally understood."

Turning to gay unions, Archbishop Brady stated: "The question of recognition of same-sex unions has also been raised. The Catholic Church remains committed to advocating and promoting the common good of everyone in our society and to giving practical expression to our pastoral concern for homosexual people both within and beyond the Catholic Church.

"The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual people are to be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. The Church condemns all forms of violence or abuse directed against people who are homosexual."

He then indicated that the Church now supports extending anti-discrimination laws to homosexuals: "In recent years, there has been significant changes to the law to remove discrimination against people on grounds of their sexuality. These changes have removed injustices, without creating any parallel legal institution to marriage.

"It is essential when considering future legislation concerning marriage and the family, to acknowledge the vital distinction between private homosexual behaviour between consenting adults, and formalising that behaviour as a relationship in society, foreseen and approved by the law, to the point when it becomes an institution in the legal structure."

He also stated the opposition of the bishops to allowing gay couples adopt children. "What is at stake here is the natural right of children to the presence normally of a mother and father in their lives."

The conference, in Buswell's Hotel, Dublin, was addressed by a number of other speakers, including teacher and columnist, Breda O'Brien, who spoke about how work and family life might be balanced.

Stephen Cummins of Accord spoke about the work the Church agency does to help families.

Journalist Colm Rapple took as his topic Government policy towards the family, while Filipino nurse Arlene Diaz spoke about the difficulties foreign nationals on work permits have settling into life in Ireland.

David Quinn
Religious Affairs Correspondent

The highlighted paragraph is, by Catholic Church standards, almost enlightened. It barely touches on decrying homosexuality as aberrant behavior (which has always been one of their arguments). Naturally it's not going to favour unions on a par with marriage, but I actually found the commments more heartening than a typical Church statement.

Yoda

Apparently the minister for Family Affairs said that "Ireland was not ready for gay adoption". In Thursday or Friday's Examiner, perhaps. Did anyone see this?

Annasopra

Reminder: the deadlines for submission to the LRC on cohabitation are September 30th

see http://www.lawreform.ie/

also according to some in the know (on GCN) this might be a big fudge

http://www.gcn.ie/newgcn/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3714