Prove Jesus Existed

40crush41

if u believe or not thats up to you, but good luck finding proof to prove that God existed for the idea of believing in a God or Jesus is based on faith... if we were given concrete evidence then what would our sacrifice be to believe in a God?

have a nice day
~beth

Paddy20

Heres another interesting website that may help the disbelievers:- www.creationresearch.net/

Good Luck.

P. :ninja:

Dont Ban Me

Originally posted by 40crush41
if we were given concrete evidence then what would our sacrifice be to believe in a God?

have a nice day
~beth

Why does there have to be a sacrifice??

neuro-praxis

I smiled when I read that question, as it is something Christians battle with themselves.

It would be good to have a thread on that topic.

The short, somewhat pat-answer is this:

God loved the world so much that he sacrificed his only son (himself, Jesus) to demonstrate that love. It is a kind of love that we can't comprehend. When Jesus died, he bore the weight of the sins of the whole world on his shoulders, and because of his punishment, God is satisfied. We are free.

It's a big question though, that doesn't half answer it.

GuanYin

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
God loved the world so much that he sacrificed his only son (himself, Jesus) to demonstrate that love. It is a kind of love that we can't comprehend. When Jesus died, he bore the weight of the sins of the whole world on his shoulders, and because of his punishment, God is satisfied. We are free.

It's a big question though, that doesn't half answer it.

Asking for faith in a god without proof is one thing, asking sacrifice is another.

To be fair, an awful lot of christian doctrine is sketchy, its been mis-translated, copied, edited altered right down to the point where the modern bible is a rough guideline to the original message of any Jesus figure.

Christianity isn't the church and can't be held accountable for its actions. But alot of christian traditions still hold root in church interpretations.

Why did god sacrifice his son? What was the motivation behind this specific act?
From there the argument gets tricky. If its original sin, then we take the creationist path and even as a metaphore, it falls short on answering the question.

Many of the biblical stories, especially theones that don't make sense, seem far to much like crowd control devices.

It sat these points that the Jesus-story falls. I'd love to see the original texts and have them translated, I reckon the message would be somewhat clearer and very different.

As an aside, things like lent amuse me. Lent is in honour of Jesus's 40 days in the desert and is about sacrifice (or maybe not?) and many people abstain from something, its tradition. Yet very few people make anything of it, Jesus did it for a better purpose. Do people? Giving up drink or whatever, would hardly please god, its self serving surely? Maybe using exactly the amount drink money you would spend to help a charity would be "giving something up".

neuro-praxis

My goodness.

God didn't ask (and doesn't ask) for a sacrifice, he made a sacrifice.

Your second point about a lot of Christian doctrine being sketchy and mistranslated etc. is nonsense, the stuff of Chinese whispers.

My housemate studies ancient Greek and has copies of the earliest biblical new testament texts available, and has been personally translating them for his own study and satisfaction and, whislt the richness of Greek cannot be compared to the meagre confines of English, the NIV, NSV versions of the bible etc. are extremely accurate and have been translated by teams of scholars.

Go to the Chester Beatty library in Dublin castle to see parts of the original texts.

I am glad that you find lent amusing. Lent as practised by Christians is purely traditional. It is not an essential part of faith, and the point of it varies generally depending on the outlook of the individual. For some it is sacrifice, for others, it is to re-focus.

Perhaps you could raise these wide and far reaching questions in other threads, rather than taking this one off onto an enormous tangent.

GuanYin

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
My goodness.

God didn't ask (and doesn't ask) for a sacrifice, he made a sacrifice.

My point is, why?
What spurred him to do it?

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
Your second point about a lot of Christian doctrine being sketchy and mistranslated etc. is nonsense, the stuff of Chinese whispers.

My housemate studies ancient Greek and has copies of the earliest biblical new testament texts available, and has been personally translating them for his own study and satisfaction and, whislt the richness of Greek cannot be compared to the meagre confines of English, the NIV, NSV versions of the bible etc. are extremely accurate and have been translated by teams of scholars..

Strangely many experts would disagree, *MY* friend is doing her masters on the subject (having completed an archaeology degree) and finds there are many discrepencies and also pinpoints several monastic influences in modern day interpretations. Perhaps these are just coincidence in the text but many references don't fit what we know about the time Jesus would have lived in.

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
I am glad that you find lent amusing. Lent as practised by Christians is purely traditional. It is not an essential part of faith, and the point of it varies generally depending on the outlook of the individual. For some it is sacrifice, for others, it is to re-focus...

I don't find it amusing, but I think the whole point of sacrifice is to do good out of it. Laying off the jammy dodgers doesn't really live up to this. It doesn't exactly follow on from the ideal that Jesus set.

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
Perhaps you could raise these wide and far reaching questions in other threads, rather than taking this one off onto an enormous tangent.

Off topic? I do believe that everything here is very much on topic. All biblical references highlight *which* Jesus we are actually believing in, the factual figure or the fairytale figure and this is relevent to whether the man as most picture him existed. Lent is an excellent example of how such a message can be lost in time, in this case Jesus lenten struggle.

watty

Watch the Film "Chocolat"

mmcgaley

Originally posted by syke "On Lent"
things like lent amuse me.

Originally posted by syke "On Lent"
I don't find it amusing,

Thread Title: Prove Jesus Existed
Syke Response: Original sin leads to "creationist path" and Christianity is not the church, amongst other equally wrong concepts about lent, contextuality and the translation of the Bible.

Excelsior's Proposal: Stick to topic. If need be with the encouragement of the moderators. Start very valid and interesting discussions in new thread. Stop spamming.

JippoKelly

Originally posted by Paddy20
Heres another interesting website that may help the disbelievers:- www.creationresearch.net/

Good Luck.

P. :ninja:

Are disbelievers in need of help?

JippoKelly

At the end of the day, whether Jesus was divine or not can not be proven nor disproven conclusively. So it all boils down to whether you want to believe in it or not.

If one was to take into account Pascal's Wager, a theist could argue that you might as well believe in God and Jesus, and the existence of heaven so that you will go there after your death. Might as well hedge your bets.

I would have some reservations about this though. What if the God you choose to worship is not the correct Divine Being? Or what if the God realises the cynical reasoning behind your belief (i.e Pascal's Wager) and refuses you a spot in heaven?

And as for the http://www.creationresearch.com website, it appears at first glance to rely heavily on the Argument from Design, an argument I have always been sceptical about. Just because the world shows forms of Intelligence doesn't mean it was created by that same Intelligence. Saints can give birth to criminals, an ice-cream man may produce ice-cream but he is not made of ice-cream himself and so on. But that's just my take on it.

GuanYin

Originally posted by mmcgaley
Thread Title: Prove Jesus Existed
Syke Response: Original sin leads to "creationist path" and Christianity is not the church, amongst other equally wrong concepts about lent, contextuality and the translation of the Bible.

Excelsior's Proposal: Stick to topic. If need be with the encouragement of the moderators. Start very valid and interesting discussions in new thread. Stop spamming.

*sigh* If you want to be pedantic "things like lent" as in areas where people seem to thing they are taking a tradition based on Jesus's teachinsg but actually miss the point imo as opposed to "lent itself" amusing. But hey, nice try.

If you want to prove Jesus, theson of god, as described in the bible, existed, you have to accept a few things that aren't clear cut. 1) the bible, which may or may not be an interpretation of original messages 2) The churches position and teachings, which again, is not, depsite what it may profess, infallible. 3) Peoples current interpretations on Jesus' message, if messages and symbolisms are gotten wrong, what else is.

I think if you are going to discuss Jesus and his role and existance, you need to atke into account everything that goes with him.

But anyway, as a mod yourself, I think the position "Let the forum mod do the modding", may be wise words.

JippoKelly

From creationresearch.net
Satan has only recently begun introducing evolution to Third World countries in order to destroy missionary enterprise. Don't let missionaries down. Learn from what evolution has done to western society and help us respond to these pleas.

Now that's a bit much to take now in fairness. The introduction of the theory of evolution to the 'Third World' is the work of Satan?! That can't possibly be taken seriously. It is just a scientific theory after all.

Stark

Learn from what evolution has done to western society and help us respond to these pleas.

Created diverse forms of life? Damn evil evolution.

ffs, evolution and belief in God don't have to be mutually exclusive. In fact, as theories on creating AI become more advanced, programmers are researching more and more development models based on evolution. Since God is assumedly much more advanced than us then it is likely he came to this realisation long ago (before the creation of the world) and helped put things in place for evolution to flourish, perhaps intervening along the way a bit to mould the humanoid form.

Stark

I have a friend doing a master sin Trinity on the subject

Ah freudian slips

JustHalf

Originally posted by syke
If you want to prove Jesus, theson of god, as described in the bible, existed, you have to accept a few things that aren't clear cut. 1) the bible, which may or may not be an interpretation of original messages 2) The churches position and teachings, which again, is not, depsite what it may profess, infallible. 3) Peoples current interpretations on Jesus' message, if messages and symbolisms are gotten wrong, what else is.

This is a can of worms. What you want us to do know is:

1. Prove that there is a God
2. Prove that the God that exists is the God described in the Bible
3. Prove that God had a Son
4. Prove that the Son that was born was Jesus Christ

Most of these requests are beyond human means to prove either true or false. Demanding that Christians prove these true is asking a bit much. One might as well ask yourself, or anyone else, to prove them false.

Originally posted by syke
I think if you are going to discuss Jesus and his role and existance, you need to atke into account everything that goes with him.

That's an entirely different question. The role of Jesus is outside the scope of this topic, which only questions his existence.

GuanYin

Originally posted by JustHalf
Most of these requests are beyond human means to prove either true or false. Demanding that Christians prove these true is asking a bit much. One might as well ask yourself, or anyone else, to prove them false.

Exactly!

Its going to boil down to a question of faith. Proving there was a guy around the right time who could be attributable to Jesus is not the same as proving Jesus existed.

It can't be done, so its just going to be a matter of faith...

JustHalf

Originally posted by syke
Exactly!

Its going to boil down to a question of faith. Proving there was a guy around the right time who could be attributable to Jesus is not the same as proving Jesus existed.

It can't be done, so its just going to be a matter of faith...

I think you're trying to redefine the question to suit your argument.

D

In reply to a earlier post, and referencing a priest who is also a theologan (sp?), weren't the "gates" to heaven shut by previous grevious sins and the whole "my incarnation shall be sacrificed" was in order to allow a truely "good" man to die thereby opening the "gates" and allowing the rest of us sinners a chance to reach heaven?

Stark

I think it was a case that you could get in but only if you followed God's law to the letter, which as we know is damn well impossible unless you're a super-saint. Jesus's sacrifice allowed the rest of us to get in by having faith in him. (Be interested to know how, why was the death part necessary etc.).

Seaneh

Originally posted by k.oriordan
I think it was a case that you could get in but only if you followed God's law to the letter, which as we know is damn well impossible unless you're a super-saint. Jesus's sacrifice allowed the rest of us to get in by having faith in him. (Be interested to know how, why was the death part necessary etc.).

The reason Jesus' sacrafice is enough for the rest of us to get to heaven is this.

He was perfect,
perfection and innocence were sacraficed so that the rest of us could live.
"One for all" sort of deal.

I know this doesn't explain it very well, but I thought I'd try anyway.

Paddy20

Believers believe.
Disbelievers do not.
So be it.

P. :ninja:

mmcgaley

I'd just like to point out that the post above was not from me. Excelsior was sitting at my desk and forgot to log me out before posting.

GuanYin

Originally posted by JustHalf
I think you're trying to redefine the question to suit your argument.

Its a pretty ambigious question.

But if you like:

The answer is noone can prove Jesus existed.

mmcgaley

Originally posted by syke
Its a pretty ambigious question.

But if you like:

The answer is noone can prove Jesus existed.

No one can prove Aristotle existed, but there's considerable evidence that he did (less evidence than there is for Jesus' existence, I might add).

mmcgaley (not excelsior - this time)

Terra

For a long time I didn't believe in god or jesus.

I did as a kid growing up in school, mainly because it was drilled into us by the teachers. But when I got a bit older I started questioning everything, and I just couldn't believe what I was told. There seemed to be no evidence, it's like being told there is a santa claus. I tried looking for answers in books and stuff. But the whole thing just didn't make sense to me. It was like yes but what if that didn't happen like that and what about what the koran says and what about budism. How do we know that is right.

So then I figured that if there is a god then let him show me that he exists.

So I started asking him every now and again, especcially when I went to mass as was tradition in my house every weekend.

So after asking him for 2 years, I got an answer. It was an overwhelming feeling that just came into my heart and for that moment I knew the answers the the questions that I was asking in my heart...not my mind. But I just felt the truth.

It was kinda a mad experience. But from that day on I have learned how to hear god in everyday life. Maybe I'm just mad in the head or something, but I can see god at work and helping me out when ever I ask for it.

So if you need proof, my advise is to ask god directly yourself. By all means look up books and websites. But the only think that will proof it to you is God.

And as he says, Ask and you shall recieve.

Calibos

I'm sure there was a historical Jesus. How much of what we know about his life that is fact and how much is embellishment and chinese whispers is another thing. I don't doubt that christians have a much better chance of proving he existed than proving he was divine. I'm sure believers of David Icke 2000 years from now might be able to prove that there was a good chance that he existed as a historical figure. They'll never be able to prove to non Ickians that he was divine though.

Slightly OT but I see santa was mentioned. What right have we to make judgements on the beliefs of hundreds of millions of pre-teens around the world. I say there must be something in it for so many to believe. Imagine in only 200 years santas message has spread to the almost the whole of northern hemisphere.

Just my 1.57p

Paddy20

You do not need proof . When you have faith.

P. :ninja:

corkie

I found this webpage a while and bookmarked it.

The Real meaning of Christmas
.
Faith? Santa? Hope? What you believe? Check the above link

neuro-praxis

Wrong thread.

It's wildly off topic.