[articles] The Provos and the Docks

mike65

I thought I'd start a fresh thread....

This from "de paper" March 9th

Toaiseach Bertie Ahern tonight backed his Justice Minister’s claim that the IRA is involved in criminal activity at Dublin Port.

Mr Ahern shrugged off suggestions that Michael McDowell’s allegation was inspired by upcoming local elections and insisted republicans had serious questions to answer.

“There’s been a number of serious things over the last 12 months that links in paramilitary and criminal issues and that’s what the minister is saying,” he said.

“I don’t want it either to be just rolled over, this issue, where people are saying it’s electioneering.

“It’s not electioneering, there’s a serious issue.

“He’s dealing actively with files that do show that there’s criminality and that’s what he’s talking about in the docks.”

This from Sunday Times today

AN IRA commander, suspected of controlling crime and racketeering in Dublin port, has been arrested in a garda sting operation. The capture of the Belfast-based terrorist was the trigger for Michael McDowell’s recent scathing attacks on Sinn Fein’s links to crime.

The convicted IRA killer was arrested last month after a year-long garda operation, codenamed Raccoon, set up to smash robberies at Dublin port orchestrated by criminals on behalf of the IRA.

He was under surveillance as he arrived at a meeting in a cafe in Swords, north Dublin, four weeks ago. He met with the IRA’s Dublin leader and a criminal believed to have set up the theft of goods delivered to the port.

All three men were arrested and questioned. They were released without charge but a file has been sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP).

The arrest of the key republican will prove an embarrassment for Sinn Fein, which has rejected the justice minister’s attacks. Last weekend, McDowell claimed Sinn Fein members from Northern Ireland were involved in organising “criminal heists” in Dublin port.

The IRA terrorist is also understood to be a member of Sinn Fein. He was jailed for life for murdering a garda but was released under the Good Friday Agreement. The southern brigade leader he was with is also prominent in republican circles: he is believed to be the IRA Officer Commanding in Dublin since January, when his predecessor was stood down for “freelancing” on robberies.

Garda sources said Operation Raccoon was one of five current investigations into racketeering and fraud involving prominent figures in the republican movement:

The garda national bureau of fraud investigations has launched a huge inquiry into a €3m revenue tax scam, involving a number of senior republicans. One former Sinn Fein candidate was among those arrested in connection with the inquiry.

British and Irish police are co-operating on an investigation into a property company in Britain that is believed be a front for a member of the IRA’s army council. The investigation is being led by police in Manchester and Scotland Yard.

Gardai are still investigating Martin Ferris, the Sinn Fein TD for Kerry North. He was arrested in connection with the abduction of a local drug dealer. The DPP has yet to decide whether he should be prosecuted.

The Criminal Assets Bureau is pursuing Anthony Sloan, a former IRA prison escapee, for €170,000 on unpaid taxes and interest. It claims Sloan owes the money for work as a taxi driver.

The latest arrests have confirmed the suspicions of security forces that the IRA and criminals are co-operating on the lucrative container robberies at Dublin port. They will also fuel the escalating war of words between the government and Sinn Fein.

McDowell’s salvo was the latest in a litany of attacks on Gerry Adams’ party, in advance of the local and European elections. Bertie Ahern, the taoiseach, launched the assault last month when he said that he always assumed Gerry Adams was in the IRA, and backed up McDowell’s claims that Sinn Fein was involved in crime.

The IRA’s involvement in punishment beatings, racketeering and crime is likely to dominate the campaign for the local elections on June 11. Fianna Fail sources said Sinn Fein, expected to repeat its success in the general election two years ago, is a threat to the party in certain Dublin constituencies.

Martin Mansergh, Fianna Fail senator and former taoiseach’s adviser, said Ahern’s outspoken stance on Sinn Fein was more to do with restoring government in Northern Ireland. “The situation is different from what it was. Two years ago, we were at an impasse and a great deal of frustration at the impasse.

“There is a feeling that more than enough time was given to making progress. Continuing prime facie evidence of different activities does make it difficult to get government going again.”

Another piece here which I'll link -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-1037112,00.html

Mike.

Cork

How much revenue is being lost to the Irish exchequer by such rackets?

Such criminality cannot be justified.

I think - I let my feelings known already on racketeering. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with €€,$$ and ££.

thesecret7

It looks like the Sinn Fein smoke screen isnt working anymore. Bertie has came out and name Gerry Adams as being on the IRA council. How can people vote for someone like him when he was giving the thumbs up to bombs goining off. Sinn Fein are terrorists and make a joke of Irish democracy.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Such criminality cannot be justified.

No criminality can be justified.

jc

Johnny 5

Originally posted by thesecret7
It looks like the Sinn Fein smoke screen isnt working anymore. Bertie has came out and name Gerry Adams as being on the IRA council. How can people vote for someone like him when he was giving the thumbs up to bombs goining off. Sinn Fein are terrorists and make a joke of Irish democracy.

As opposed to running the same vote twice in order to gain a more favourable outcome.

Victor

Originally posted by thesecret7
Bertie has came out and name Gerry Adams as being on the IRA council.

I think it was more along the lines of the Taoiseach saying he assumed Gerry Adams was a member of the IRA all along.

Originally posted by Johnny 5
As opposed to running the same vote twice in order to gain a more favourable outcome.

I assume you are referring to the Nice referendum.
People are entitled to democratically change their minds.
And FF made no secret that they were going to have another referendum on that subject.

Maybe we should have a referendum on banning people from changing their mind...
doubt that it would pass, no matter how many times it was run.

Sparks

Originally posted by Earthman
I assume you are referring to the Nice referendum.
People are entitled to democratically change their minds.

There's a difference between changing your mind and being told that your current opinion is considered unwise and therefore you are obliged to make your mind up again....

I disagree as you have your own free will when casting your secret ballot whilst expressing your right to change your own mind.

The people who voted in that second ballot were not moonies you know, they were Irish citizens

Sparks

Originally posted by Earthman
The people who voted in that second ballot were not moonies you know, they were Irish citizens

Ay, but not terribly well-informed ones, through no fault of their own. Did anyone mention the Article 133/GATS issues on the government side for the second referendum?

Zombrex

Originally posted by Johnny 5
As opposed to running the same vote twice in order to gain a more favourable outcome.

Yeah because that is the same thing :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Sparks
Ay, but not terribly well-informed ones, through no fault of their own. Did anyone mention the Article 133/GATS issues on the government side for the second referendum?

Who are you to say that people are ill informed??
Unless you can read their minds.

I find anyone dissing people without full knowledge of how they formed their opinions or what was important to them , most disconcerting:rolleyes:

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

But they will have to hold further E.U referenda from time to time, depending on what is decided.

The option for people to further change their mind on the direction of our E.U membership hasn't gone away.

And then of course theres elections this summer and in 2007 or thereabouts.
This is going off topic /me blocks the drift.

markomac316

Some Sinn Fein members are connected to the I.R.A have been in the I.R.A and are still involved in it but Gerry Adams isnt. Every political party in the North of Ireland will have a member somewhere in it who was/is involved in a paramiliatary. To say it is just Sinn Fein/I.R.A its just ridicilius.

Also the I.R.A have to get money from somewhere since its obvious that a lot of their support has went bye bye cause they are living in the free state.

And if you want to talk about paramilitary activities talk about the Catholic priests house getting fire bombed by members of loyalist paras or the arms find which was going to loyalist paras.

Victor

Originally posted by markomac316
but Gerry Adams isnt.

You say that quite authoritively. Why has Adams in the past claimed he was in the IRA?

Originally posted by markomac316
Also the I.R.A have to get money from somewhere since its obvious that a lot of their support has went bye bye cause they are living in the free state.

I just can't understand what you are trying to say here. Why do they "have to get money"? When was the "free state" abolished?

Originally posted by markomac316
And if you want to talk about paramilitary activities talk about the Catholic priests house getting fire bombed by members of loyalist paras or the arms find which was going to loyalist paras.

And what has this to do with Dublin Port?

bonkey

Originally posted by markomac316
To say it is just Sinn Fein/I.R.A its just ridicilius.

Who has said this?

Also the I.R.A have to get money from somewhere since its obvious that a lot of their support has went bye bye cause they are living in the free state.

Maybe I'm mistaking your intent, but that sounds suspiciously like a justification for why they do this.

If so, then consider that drug addicts need to get money to satisfy their illegal activities. Often that results in them turning to crime. Should we accept that as some sort of justification for their crimes as well?

Also, unless you can show that he IRA only turned to this activity after other forms of support went away, your reasoning wouldn't hold much water anyway, regardless of whether it is a justification or not.

And if you want to talk about paramilitary activities talk about the Catholic priests house getting fire bombed by members of loyalist paras or the arms find which was going to loyalist paras.

No.

If you want to talk about that, then you go and start a thread on it. But don't come in here suggesting that people shouldn't be discussing what they want to, but rather what you think is more important.

jc

markomac316

Gerry Adams has never stated he was part of the I.R.A.

Well maybe if the government legalised it then it would cut it out and the taxes on it could be put to good use. Give a solution to your problem, not a problem to your problem.

Victor

Originally posted by markomac316
Gerry Adams has never stated he was part of the I.R.A.

But had previously claimed he was in? Which should we believe?

Originally posted by markomac316
Well maybe if the government legalised it then it would cut it out and the taxes on it could be put to good use.

Get a cut of what? IRA racketeering money?

markomac316

Show me where he has stated it.

And no I meant it would cut out people getting robbed for it and also cut out the I.R.A dealing it in. And that way it can be controlled, and the government can use the tax they recieve from it to good use.

Victor

Originally posted by markomac316
And no I meant it would cut out people getting robbed for it and also cut out the I.R.A dealing it in. And that way it can be controlled, and the government can use the tax they recieve from it to good use.

What is "it"?

AmenToThat

I have just gone through that article and one thing in particular cought my attention!
No one has been convicted in a court of law of the crimes that are discussed in the article.
This doesnt seem to bother those who have responded in this thread though, is it a case where you except as gospel an article if it neatly fits with what you believe or indeed want to beleive?

Cork

Originally posted by AmenToThat

This doesnt seem to bother those who have responded in this thread though, is it a case where you except as gospel an article if it neatly fits with what you believe or indeed want to beleive?

It is not just the article. THe article merely backs up statements made by An Taoiseach & the Minister for Justice.

Is it so unbelievable that an organisation like the IRA are not involved in racketeering?

This from an organisation that was involved Adare post office hold-up?

monument

"AN IRA commander, suspected of controlling crime and racketeering in Dublin port, has been arrested in a garda sting operation."

One would have to note that this was a very common thing in the past, close to elections members of SF, or even suspected members of the IRA, been arrested with out proof and later released with on charge, or dismiss in court.

I’m not saying it’s impossible of the IRA or people named to be involved, I’m just saying it’s currently not fact.

Villain

Lads, paper never refused ink, I'm not saying this isn't happening at all, but I think we should be careful in acting as Judge and Jury and saying these people are guilty.

Recently Michael McDowell made statements about Sinn Fein, which Sinn Fein responded by saying put up or shut!. He did neither.

At the Green Party's conference they made statements about PD's supporters holding onto re-zoned land, the PD's told the Greens to put or shut up.

See where I'm going, everyone is banding accusations around but no-one is yet to prove anything.

It's all speculation and I think FF are trying to divert attention from whats going on in th tribunal, Mary O'Rourke says the meeting between Gilmartin and several TD's that Bertie says didn't happen did in fact take place. She's meant to be willing to go to the tribunal to state as much also. So I think FF should worry about the corruption closer to home than making wild accusations towards Sinn Fein.

Two points here.
Holding onto zoned land irrespective of party affiliation is perfectly legal ,racketeering involving robbery and or extortion most definitely is not.

Secondly it was and is Michael McDowell who has been at the forefront of the accusations against Sinn Féin.
He is not and never has been a member of Fianna Fáil.

Ahern only commented when pushed to comment and later to point out that as Minister for Justice, McDowell is actively dealing with files in relation to racketeering in the port, so he has some grounding for his beliefs.

Its true to say that, no certainty can be gained on this untill the Dpp recommends prosecutions and the matter goes before the courts.

That said its highly damaging to Sinn Féin and in normal circumstances, if it involved members of any party other than Sinn Féin,it would merit an open transparent party inquiry with disiplinary actions meeted out if necessary.

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
Two points here.
Holding onto zoned land irrespective of party affiliation is perfectly legal ,racketeering involving robbery and or extortion most definitely is not.

Secondly it was and is Michael McDowell who has been at the forefront of the accusations against Sinn Féin.
He is not and never has been a member of Fianna Fáil.

Ahern only commented when pushed to comment and later to point out that as Minister for Justice, McDowell is actively dealing with files in relation to racketeering in the port, so he has some grounding for his beliefs.

Its true to say that, no certainty can be gained on this untill the Dpp recommends prosecutions and the matter goes before the courts.

That said its highly damaging to Sinn Féin and in normal circumstances, if it involved members of any party other than Sinn Féin,it would merit an open transparent party inquiry with disiplinary actions meeted out if necessary.

I was merely pointing out that the PDS were asked to put or shut and they didn't and they then asked the Green's to do the same, I wasn't looking to get into a debate about the issue.

The Taoiseach has spoken several times about Sinn Fein, he's wasn't pushed to comment to choose to.

It's not as damaging as whats coming out in the Tribunal about FF!!

Deathtobertie

Originally posted by Cork
How much revenue is being lost to the Irish exchequer by such rackets?

Such criminality cannot be justified.

I think - I let my feelings known already on racketeering. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with €€,$$ and ££.

Do I hear Cork plead for "due process" in this case? (In light of the fact that no charges have in fact been proved)

Cork nearly had a wobbler attack when a member of Fianna Fail was being accused of hit and run a while ago on these pages.

Is it a case of due process for Fianna Fail and lets slander the hell out of sinn fein without a single charge being pressed against anybody, let alone Sinn Fein.

That kind of attempted political assassination was used by the deposed spanish government when they tried to pin the train bombings on ETA to try and diminish the support of the basque separatist political parties. It didn't work for them and it won't work for bertie and his fatcats either.

Blithering Bertie is up to his usual mudslinging that he does whenver there is a bit of heat on him or his party(ie corruption allegations at the tribunal) He is trying to whip up a media storm that will push his parties alledged wrongdoings onto page 2 of the papers.


Fianna Fail have acted disgracefully by talking theses alledged crimes up in the media. It is blatant electioneering. If they had any sure proof or evidence surely Fianna Fail would have kept it under wraps until they could definitively hammer Sinn Fein over the head with it

I am sure these allegations will never be heard of again after the elections.

Originally posted by irish1

It's not as damaging as whats coming out in the Tribunal about FF!!

I think you'll find though that members of FF who are involved in corruption and found to be involved via the tribunal are thrown out of that party.

Does Sinn Féin throw anyone out that say was convicted of a crime?

See what I'm saying? Different standards.

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
See what I'm saying? Different standards.

Different party's, people have served there time for previous crimes.


Bertie and a lot of other ministers are alleged to have met Gilmartin have they been thrown out of the party???

Cork

If those members of SF named as on the IRA army council feel so agrieved - they can sue the newspaper.

Is it hard to believe that an organisation like the IRA are not involved in racketeering?

Was it not involved in the Post Office raid in Adare??

Does Sinn Féin throw anyone out that say was convicted of a crime?

No they don't.

Racketeering & punishment beatings have to stop. I hope that SF/IRA gets this message. Let them take that message back to their army council.

Originally posted by irish1
Different party's, people have served there time for previous crimes.

The point is,having served their time or not, they were convicted of a crime and not thrown out of their party-Sinn Féin.

The other main stream parties tend to throw out members who are found to be corrupt or at least withdraw the whip.

Bertie and a lot of other ministers are alleged to have met Gilmartin have they been thrown out of the party???

Hang on now, you are using the word "alleged" here to suit your argument....
Yet when questions are asked of Sinn Féin you look for proof.

Thats not a very consistent approach to take, it's applying your own standards differently and is tandamount to hypocrisy.

My statement stands, the mainstream parties generally throw out those found corrupt, does Sinn Féin throw out or investigate convicted criminals?

It's important, for the rule of law must be paramount.

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
If those members of SF named as on the IRA army council feel so agrieved - they can sue the newspaper.

They should bloody well sue you, considering all the accusations you have been thrown around without proof!!

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman


Hang on now, you are using the word "alleged" here to suit your argument....
Yet when questions are asked of Sinn Féin you look for proof.

I was pointing out that not everyone

found to be involved via the tribunal are thrown out of that party.

I never said they were guilty now did I, I very cleary said alleged

Originally posted by Earthman


My statement stands, the mainstream parties generally throw out those found corrupt, does Sinn Féin throw out or investigate convicted criminals?

It's important, for the rule of law must be paramount.

They have served their time for their crimes, they were not involved in corruption btw they were in involved in Gunrunning and other illegal activites.

Originally posted by irish1

I never said they were guilty now did I, I very cleary said alleged

But you asked have they been thrown out of their party??? in an answer to my question has anyone been thrown out of Sinn Féin.

You are clearly trying (unsucessfully by the way) to avoid my first question about both parties having different standards regarding what to do about corruption.
And you are avoiding my second relatied question regarding who has convicted criminals amongst their membership, SF or FF?

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
But you asked have they been thrown out of their party??? in an answer to my question has anyone been thrown out of Sinn Féin.

You are clearly trying (unsucessfully by the way) to avoid my first question about both parties having different standards regarding what to do about corruption.
And you are avoiding my second relatied question regarding who has convicted criminals amongst their membership, SF or FF?

Originally posted by Irish1 They have served their time for their crimes, they were not involved in corruption btw they were in involved in Gunrunning and other illegal activites.

*sigh*
Thats not answering the question.
Regardless of the fact that they have been released from jail, they are convicted criminals.

A murderer for instance who is in jail for 14 years and released is always a murderer.
A thief is always a thief.

My statement on the issue was that at least the mainstream parties throw people out for those activities.
Hence ultimately they are seen to have higher standards in that regard.

monument

note the word in red...

"AN IRA commander, suspected of controlling crime and racketeering in Dublin port, has been arrested in a garda sting operation."

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
My statement on the issue was that at least the mainstream parties throw people out for those activities.
Hence ultimately they are seen to have higher standards in that regard.

In regard to criminal activity (in the past) ,yes, in regard to corruption I don't think so.

I cant see what else you want me to answer.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
note the word in red...

"AN IRA commander, suspected of controlling crime and racketeering in Dublin port, has been arrested in a garda sting operation."

If this was proven to be true, and if it was proven that Gerry Adams is a leading member of the IRA Army Council, would you continue to vote for Sinn Féin? If these were true, I believe that anyone that votes for SF to be seriously deluded, and/or have a seriously deranged moral viewpoint. I would actually go so far as to say that I would be highly ashamed that Irish citizens could vote for such people.

If it was true.

Villain

IF Bertie Ahern did meet Gilmartin and if he knew of P Flynn's corruption etc would anyone in their right mind vote FF??

Theres a lot of this going around, FF and the PD's are trying to make it look like SF are the only party with issues at the moment, have a read of Gilmartins evidence and see what the Party that Currently RULES this Country was alleged to be up to!!

There was an excellent article in Ireland on Sunday yesterday, by a retired bus driver in his 70's who go's to all the tribunals, wuite enligthening.

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
If this was proven to be true, and if it was proven that Gerry Adams is a leading member of the IRA Army Council, would you continue to vote for Sinn Féin? If these were true, I believe that anyone that votes for SF to be seriously deluded, and/or have a seriously deranged moral viewpoint. I would actually go so far as to say that I would be highly ashamed that Irish citizens could vote for such people.

If it was true.

I'd say the same thing about FF and the PD on their policies alone.

A goverment which allows an army currently fighting an illegal war to land on “our soil” - I'd be highly ashamed if an Irish citizen votes for such people again.

No ifs or buts.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
IF Bertie Ahern did meet Gilmartin and if he knew of P Flynn's corruption etc would anyone in their right mind vote FF??

Theres a lot of this going around, FF and the PD's are trying to make it look like SF are the only party with issues at the moment, have a read of Gilmartins evidence and see what the Party that Currently RULES this Country was alleged to be up to!!

There was an excellent article in Ireland on Sunday yesterday, by a retired bus driver in his 70's who go's to all the tribunals, wuite enligthening.

I don't see any corruption regarding the PDs. Until there is any, I will continue to vote for them.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I don't see any corruption regarding the PDs. Until there is any, I will continue to vote for them.

Fair enough but they are in JOINT partnership with FF in the current Goverment!

Mighty_Mouse

Mr Ahern shrugged off suggestions that Michael McDowell’s allegation was inspired by upcoming local elections

What else was he gonna do?

“I don’t want it either to be just rolled over, this issue, where people are saying it’s electioneering.

It is

“It’s not electioneering

As Radiohead once said......................

AN IRA commander, suspected of..............

Suspected.........etc

The convicted IRA killer was arrested last month after a year-long garda operation, codenamed Raccoon, set up to smash robberies at Dublin port orchestrated by criminals on behalf of the IRA.

if they do..............would we see one little bit of proof please.........even the evidence ..........indicators.............anything!!

All three men were arrested and questioned. They were released without charge but a file has been sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP).

without proof....................let me see where have we heard this before............. Martin Ferris.................Stormont..................castlerea............. must be something comign up soon...........ah! Elections in June!

The arrest of the key republican will prove an embarrassment for Sinn Fein, which has rejected the justice minister’s attacks. Last weekend, McDowell claimed Sinn Fein members from Northern Ireland were involved in organising “criminal heists” in Dublin port.

When did SF deny that the IRA were involved in any criminal activity?

Mr Ahern shrugged off suggestions that Michael McDowell’s allegation was inspired by upcoming local elections

What else was he gonna do?

“I don’t want it either to be just rolled over, this issue, where people are saying it’s electioneering.

It is

“It’s not electioneering

As Radiohead once said......................

AN IRA commander, suspected of..............

Suspected.........etc

The convicted IRA killer was arrested last month after a year-long garda operation, codenamed Raccoon, set up to smash robberies at Dublin port orchestrated by criminals on behalf of the IRA.

if they do..............would we see one little bit of proof please.........even the evidence ..........indicators.............anything!!

All three men were arrested and questioned. They were released without charge but a file has been sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP).

without proof....................let me see where have we heard this before............. Martin Ferris.................Stormont..................castlerea............. must be something comign up soon...........ah! Elections in June!

The arrest of the key republican will prove an embarrassment for Sinn Fein, which has rejected the justice minister’s attacks. Last weekend, McDowell claimed Sinn Fein members from Northern Ireland were involved in organising “criminal heists” in Dublin port.

When did SF deny that the IRA were involved in any criminal activity?

Operation Raccoon:

€3m revenue tax scam

investigation into a property company in Britain

Martin Ferris, in connection with the abduction of a local drug dealer.

Sloan, a former IRA prison escapee, for €170,000 on unpaid taxes and interest. It claims Sloan owes the money for work as a taxi driver.

Ah! Come on? The first two give absolutely no information. Ferris ---- i wait with baited breath to see them find anything linking him .......
and FFS - avoiding tax!!! Its hardly a threat to public security! For FF to be listing it as a charge against Shinners is pretty ironic seeing as half the Irish legal system is currently being taken up investigating FF activities!!!!!

Looks like scraping the barrel to me!

Of coarse every prominant Republican and Sinn Fein man is going to be under constant surveilance (harrassment) from security forces!

The latest arrests have confirmed the suspicions ....

Have confirmed nothing , I would say

McDowell’s salvo was the latest in a litany of attacks ... launched the assault last month. ....

Wow! And its not electioneering!

This actually sounds like it was written by FF. Can nobody else here see. Is it some sort of revelation that the IRA racketeer!!? Jesus are we actually switching our focus from "decomissioning" here in boards to something even more ridicolous!.

Where are the crys for Shinners to be thrown out of government ...........etc etc ah! there the are!

But had previously claimed he was in?

When did Gerry Adams claim he was in the IRA?

It is not just the article. THe article merely
backs up statements made by An Taoiseach & the Minister for Justice.

Well now.................hang em high!

That said its highly damaging to Sinn Féin and in normal circumstances

Not the first and wont be the last! As SF grows also watch these type of "once-off" accusation type stories grow.

Racketeering & punishment beatings have to stop. I hope that SF/IRA gets this message. Let them take that message back to their army council.

Im sure its duely noted cork!:D Cork do you ever have anything to offer other than "paisley-like" tablid-headline-type comments to make.
?:p

The other main stream parties tend to throw out members who are found to be corrupt or at least withdraw the whip

And everone involved in the Civil war/war of independance was not allowed to govern!

Your talking about a party coming from a war-time to a peace-time situation here. Allowances should be made as such.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
I'd say the same thing about FF and the PD on their policies alone.

A goverment which allows an army currently fighting an illegal war to land on “our soil” - I'd be highly ashamed if an Irish citizen votes for such people again.

No ifs or buts.

What, the PD-style policies that kept Ireland's unemployment and rate of growth near the top of the Europe during an economic downturn?

As for the Shannon thing, that can be debated either way, and has been already on boards.ie. Nevertheless, I see you took the easy way out by answering a direct question with another question. However, I label you a hypocrite if you refuse to vote FF based on an anti-war stance, yet continue to vote SF, depite the fact that they are linked to terrorists, and have a "private army".

Mighty_Mouse

sorry lads! Didnt think that would take up so much space. If the mods wanna tidy it up a bit (knock the space outta it). Fire ahead,

If this was proven to be true, and if it was proven that Gerry Adams is a leading member of the IRA Army Council, would you continue to vote for Sinn Féin?
.

Yes because it doesnt matter. Whats the difference. Sure Martin Ferris, Martin McGuinness etc have admitted to being members of the IRA.
People who vote SF understand the principles that the IRA operated under, accept the past and respect the 10 years cease-fire.

What would G. Adams specifically matter?

If these were true, I believe that anyone that votes for SF to be seriously deluded, and/or have a seriously deranged moral viewpoint. .

Why? If you do not understand or accept the way the IRA operated throughout the Troubles (I understand and accept) you can still accept the new and dynamic policies offered by SF. Once you believe that the war is truely over of coares (which I do)

I would actually go so far as to say that I would be highly ashamed that Irish citizens could vote for such people.

Well your going to be ashamed of a rapidly increasing number of people

Sparks

Originally posted by ReefBreak
What, the PD-style policies that kept Ireland's unemployment and rate of growth near the top of the Europe during an economic downturn?

Would those be the ones that restricted the freedom of information act, didn't bring in an independent Garda ombudsman with teeth but a pathetic excuse for a complaints board instead, supported an illegal war secretly until they were caught at it, are now busy cracking down on the civil rights of immigrants, trashed the notion of "binding" referenda in Ireland, and cynically overruled High Court rulings and local democracy to put in place a bin tax which in itself is a cynical step towards privatising waste collection, and on top of all that, trashed higher education funding which is the only source of our only natural resource in this country?
Those ones?

I'm no fan of SF, but that doesn't mean I'm going to run to the PDs or FF...

Cork

The PDs and SF have exactly the same policy with regards to Northern Ireland. They both signed up to the consent policy of the Good Friday Agreement.

The report in yesterdays newspaper backed up statements made up Michael Mc Dowell.

Asking for proof is a red herring. Should we all stake out Dublin port? What levels of proof do those engaged in punishment beatings require?

Punishment beatings and racketeering have to stop. I hope SF does condmn these acts of criminality and uses its influence on the IRA to stop such activity.

Does racketeering by the IRA surprise people.

The IRA were involved in a Post Office Raid when they killed Gerry McCabe,

Adams only recently called for the release of those involved with that.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
must be something comign up soon...........ah! Elections in June!

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of corruption,racketeering and the differing standards in dealing with or tollerating it for a moment...

Are you saying there that these issues should not be raised at all?

After all if theres nothing to hide, then whats the problem?
Mud only sticks if it cannot be cleaned.

My point all along is that the established parties where there has been proven to be a link to undesirable activities, they have disiplined or at least investigated any members found wanting and in certain cases expelled them from their party.

Even the Greens had an incident recently, not related to corruption, but where a T.D held shares in an oil company whose policies werent consistent with Green party thinking.
Now when that came to light he off loaded the shares.

Sinn Féin doesn't appear to have a similar clean up policy regarding its members.
By not having that standard they are open to looking like they don't care or have a disregard for criminality when it involves their members.
Yet at the same time they would want to be in government where laws are made and the enforcement of such laws should be sacrocant.

That for me and many, many others would be a serious difficulty in the perception of Sinn Féin

ReefBreak

must be something comign up soon...........ah! Elections in June!

Sinn Féin Method for Avoiding the Difficult Questions Regarding Criminality (New Entry!!!) #1: Accuse offending politician of "Playing Politics".

Sinn Féin Method for Avoiding the Difficult Questions Regarding Criminality #2: Accuse offending politician of electioneering for upcoming election while forgetting that everything that comes out of an Sinn Féin mouth is also blatant electioneering and stomach-churning hyposcrisy.