Getting into college (backdoor)...

neXus9

I have a fetac certificate in Information technology, and I was wondering if I could use this to get into college, and if so what's the procedure?

I haved looked around for IT jobs, but they seem to always look for 2/3 yrs work experience (how am I gonna get those years, If I can't start out anywhere).

The people who did get into the IT industry have all done degrees. They were telling me that jobs see a degree equeling 3 yrs work experience (which in my opinion is bullsh*t, alot of it isn't real world, just theory).

But having said that, I do have an interest in going to college. I would love to try out flash development/game development, but would an IT cert allow me to go into this sector, or is the cert too general?

If the fetac cert doesn't cut it, can I do a cert via studying it at home and sit an exam at a college or go to a testing centre?

I have both an interest in film and IT (which is awkward), I'm eyeballing a place for a two yr film course, but it's another institute, and Iv'e already spent a yr in FAS, which has good training facilities and good teachers, but it isn't exactly a fun place.

I always wanted to go to a college like UCD or trinity, but what's the best for IT (DIT, DCU?), If I do the film cert and go into an IT course as a mature student, would I be too old compared to everyone else, or is there plenty of people at the grand old age of 23?

Thanks

Lump

College work board may have been a better place for this.


John

Johnny Versace

Dude, the IT industry is a dying industry. Unless you're planning on moving to China or India I'd steer well clear of IT.

Seriously, I have 5 years tech support experience, 2 years QA and 2 years Development (C/C++/Perl/PHP/GTK). There are NO jobs out there. And any that do come up get hundreds of CVs.

Really, think long and hard before IT...

Just my 2 cents...

neXus9

I put it in as college play, but it didn't get any replies.

Dude, the IT industry is a dying industry. Unless you're planning on moving to China or India I'd steer well clear of IT.

I know, iv'e been looking all over the place and have found nothing. Do you know any multimedia courses, where they do both web design/flash and film and tv, so I can have both interests put in to one course??

Anyway, is 23 too old for college, or is there plenty of mature students in college (does it even matter or am I just being paranoid)?

Repli

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
Dude, the IT industry is a dying industry. Unless you're planning on moving to China or India I'd steer well clear of IT.

Seriously, I have 5 years tech support experience, 2 years QA and 2 years Development (C/C++/Perl/PHP/GTK). There are NO jobs out there. And any that do come up get hundreds of CVs.

Really, think long and hard before IT...

Just my 2 cents...

Do u have a degree? just curious

Johnny Versace

3 year Diploma in Computer Science... didn't stay on for degree as the industry was hot when I graduated.

Having a degree means nothing. One of the best IT guys in Ireland/The world is Irish (Justin Mason, I used to work with him) and he has no 3rd level education.

You'll find the best IT guys are the ones who are dedicated, not formerly educated! (I should be a rapper...)

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by neXus9
I know, iv'e been looking all over the place and have found nothing. Do you know any multimedia courses, where they do both web design/flash and film and tv, so I can have both interests put in to one course??

Anyway, is 23 too old for college, or is there plenty of mature students in college (does it even matter or am I just being paranoid)?

23 is not too old. Do it now before you get too old! Seriously, better to regret something you have done, than something you haven't, right?

Ballyfermot Senior College is very good for film/media. Not a UNI, but they've a good rep for that stuff.

There is a multimedia course in DCU as well (not communications), also check out Dun Laoire College of Art and Design...

Gummy Panda

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
3 year Diploma in Computer Science... didn't stay on for degree as the industry was hot when I graduated.

Having a degree means nothing. One of the best IT guys in Ireland/The world is Irish (Justin Mason, I used to work with him) and he has no 3rd level education.

You'll find the best IT guys are the ones who are dedicated, not formerly educated! (I should be a rapper...)

He's right about degrees. My brother had a top job in Borland working on their projects without a degree. So did his boss.

Experience matters most, or so i've heard from the IT sector.

neXus9,

You could use your fetac to get into a insititute of Technology college. You'd probably have to start in first year if your cert doesn't meet their teaching course but you'd be in.

I recommend looking at jobs that look for 1 years experience. They most likely take on students with no experience. Doesn't hurt to chance ya arm!!

neXus9

What about the fetac cert in IT? Can you get into multimedia courses with this since there's alot of web/flash material?

How do you go about getting into courses without having to repeat your leaving?

xx

Originally posted by neXus9
The people who did get into the IT industry have all done degrees. They were telling me that jobs see a degree equeling 3 yrs work experience (which in my opinion is bullsh*t, alot of it isn't real world, just theory).


I have both an interest in film and IT (which is awkward), I'm eyeballing a place for a two yr film course, but it's another institute, and Iv'e already spent a yr in FAS, which has good training facilities and good teachers, but it isn't exactly a fun place.

I always wanted to go to a college like UCD or trinity, but what's the best for IT (DIT, DCU?), If I do the film cert and go into an IT course as a mature student, would I be too old compared to everyone else, or is there plenty of people at the grand old age of 23?

Thanks

Ok, some info for you:

One of my mates got a degree in Software Engineering from Tallaght IT 2 years ago. He still, however, has to get 3 years work experience before he can go after what he's really looking to do (video game design). He was lucky enough to get a great job in Buy4now so he'll be there until his 3 year stint is done. So you're correct in saying that the degree = 3 year exp is bullshiit. You need both.
As for computer courses in trinity or UCD or DCU etc. From my experience and from what I've been told, they're pretty much the same all over. Most of the REAL computer buffs that I know do most of their learning in their own time sitting in front of their PC learning stuff themselves. These guys and girls are the real unsung heroes of the IT industry. So forget about WHERE you wanna do the course - just focus on what you want to achieve.
At the end of the day, I think you should just follow you're dreams and don't rush into things. Talk to a friend about it and ask them what they could see you doing. You'd be surprised at the answers. As for being two old, don't even worry about that. Trust me, the most you'll have to worry about is paying for the course and having enough money to see it through.


XX is currently in his 2nd year of a 4 year degree in Psychology in trinity College Dublin. He started the course last year when 24 years of age, as a mature student. He has previously studied computers and business studies in Carlow IT and is a graduate of the school of life. He also works his arse off to afford to stay in college which he finds to be the hardest part of returning to college.

Gummy Panda

Well, i know you can get into a IT course which deals with multimedia. Not too sure about an actually dedicated multimedia course since some are more filmand photography centred then graphics or animation.

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by neXus9
What about the fetac cert in IT? Can you get into multimedia courses with this since there's alot of web/flash material?

How do you go about getting into courses without having to repeat your leaving?

Mature student is the way to go. You'll have to wait until next year though (you apply around September or something.)

I don't know much about fetac so I can't really comment on that (sorry), but the best thing would really be to start contacting the college departments now. Ask them questions and sound enthuastic. You'll want them to remember you when you application comes around

Repli

http://www.irishjobs.ie/Search_Roles.asp?RecType=3&Company=ON&Agency=ON&Location=1&IsProvince=1&MatchPerc=40&Ranking=&JobType=0&No_Days_Created=0&Category=3

If you click any of those links - youll see theres literally hundreds of IT jobs in Ireland but the thing is about 90% of them on that site require a degree so thats why I asked

And about your 'best IT guy in Ireland/World has no degree' argument, its a bit silly because I could say 'Michael O'Leary has no Leaving Cert and hes one of the most successful businessmen in Irish history so that means if you want to be a successful businessman dont do your Leaving Cert' - its not a very valid argument

I mean I agree with you that experience is essential too in this industry but you cant really say 'having an IT degree means nothing'

neXus9

cool! I'm always thinking that there's going to be a huge difference in maturity between the 17 yr olds and 23's, but I know people twice my age that have the maturity of 12 yr olds, so I guess it doesn't matter.

TBH, I didn't want to say this because it may sound a bit stupid, but I always dreamt of going to a major college for the social aspect of it (societies, events, parties). Where I live is sooo boring and I just want to have that experience (although I do truely have a great interest in computers).

I currently at the moment studying at home to get my MCSA.

red_ice

i look at some of the replys on how some people are qualified and it makes me laugh. Although they are a prerequsite of a job, a job needs more. A personality and presentation of ones self really does help your chances of getting a job in it.

If your serious about a job, you dress serious, smell serious (not in a bad way), talk serious and show that you are confident.

As far as you going into college as a mature student goes - i go to griffith and i love it to pieces. Granted i started at 19, but some of my best friends in teh college are in the 23-25 mark.

Age is nothing but a number

Do that you want. It doesnt matter how you get there - just be focused on a goal.

Johnny Versace

Nope. Apply for some of those jobs. You'll find this is the case -

There will be 15 recruitment companies advertising for the one job. SERIOUSLY!!

I am talking from experience here. The IT industry has NO jobs in Ireland at the moment.

Having an IT degree, really... it's not going to help your job chances UNLESS you plan on doing a masters/PhD and going for a cool job in google/somewhere where they require a formal education. But in PRACTICAL terms, your degree will teach you nothing you will ever use...

Originally posted by Repli
http://www.irishjobs.ie/Search_Roles.asp?RecType=3&Company=ON&Agency=ON&Location=1&IsProvince=1&MatchPerc=40&Ranking=&JobType=0&No_Days_Created=0&Category=3

If you click any of those links - youll see theres literally hundreds of IT jobs in Ireland but the thing is about 90% of them on that site require a degree so thats why I asked

And about your 'best IT guy in Ireland/World has no degree' argument, its a bit silly because I could say 'Michael O'Leary has no Leaving Cert and hes one of the most successful businessmen in Irish history so that means if you want to be a successful businessman dont do your Leaving Cert' - its not a very valid argument

I mean I agree with you that experience is essential too in this industry but you cant really say 'having an IT degree means nothing'

xx

Originally posted by neXus9
TBH, I didn't want to say this because it may sound a bit stupid, but I always dreamt of going to a major college for the social aspect of it (societies, events, parties). Where I live is sooo boring and I just want to have that experience (although I do truely have a greaty interest in computers).

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. I thought that the social scene in Trinity would be out of this world, but truth told its not. I'm from the sticks and find it so hard to relate to the average urban snob. They just annoy me. So what I found was better is to make a few dedecated friends there and have the craic with them instead.

zAbbo

If the prerequsite for a job is a Degree, then you need a degree. Its not to show how much you know about IT, but more to do with the fact that you can study hard for four years. Which show magnitude of vital skills. How are Companies supposed to know your a ninja at tech stuff? eh

Repli

Ok there's no IT jobs in Ireland when I just gave you a link to hundreds

But in PRACTICAL terms, your degree will teach you nothing you will ever use...

Again I don't believe this for a second, every subject I do in college has a practical lab too. Atm we're doing stuff like C++, SQL, XML, Linux, Unix shell programming, etc and you're telling me I'll never use any of this stuff I'm learning in the industry. Well what do you do in IT jobs then - milk cows? I'll admit some of the stuff we learn like graph theory I will probably never use but I really have a hard time believing I'm never gonna use any of this stuff

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by Repli
Ok there's no IT jobs in Ireland when I just gave you a link to hundreds


Again I don't believe this for a second, every subject I do in college has a practical lab too. Atm we're doing stuff like C++, SQL, XML, Linux, Unix shell programming, etc and you're telling me I'll never use any of this stuff I'm learning in the industry. Well what do you do in IT jobs then - milk cows? I'll admit some of the stuff we learn like graph theory I will probably never use but I really have a hard time believing I'm never gonna use any of this stuff

You didn't read my reply. It is the one job with every recruitment company advertising for it. Apply for the jobs and you'll see what I mean.

I am not bull****ting here - I have been dealing with the (dead) IT jobs market now for years...

As regards the stuff you are learning in college - your job as a programmer will be development based on OS function calls. They don't teach you this in college. Again, I AM TALKING FROM EXPERIENCE HERE!!

You gotta have faith in me on this one...

neXus9

What job have you at the moment, Johnny (If you don't mind me asking)?

zAbbo

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
3 year Diploma in Computer Science... didn't stay on for degree as the industry was hot when I graduated.

What a foolish thing to do

Originally posted by bazH
If the prerequsite for a job is a Degree, then you need a degree.

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by neXus9
What job have you at the moment, Johnny (If you don't mind me asking)?

I do contract work for hosting companies (security stuff...)

OH, I'm also doing a maths degree at night (just finished...) in case anyones wondering. This is purely for my brain.

neXus9

If there is a company standard cert for network security, would it be the one from cisco (CIE security), or would security+ be enough (doubt it)?

Repli

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
You didn't read my reply. It is the one job with every recruitment company advertising for it. Apply for the jobs and you'll see what I mean.

I am not bull****ting here - I have been dealing with the (dead) IT jobs market now for years...

As regards the stuff you are learning in college - your job as a programmer will be development based on OS function calls. They don't teach you this in college. Again, I AM TALKING FROM EXPERIENCE HERE!!

You gotta have faith in me on this one...

I'd rather not - you're just jumping from extreme to extreme. How do you know what I learn and don't learn in my course? 2 people in my class have been offered a 1 year work placement in oracle from september on and have NO experience in IT and just 2 years of their degree completed.

Johnny Versace

Before I go any further - I really don't want to get in an argument with people here about college etc.

Having a degree is defo worthwhile, and if I could go back in time, I'd stay in college forever, but I think in the IT industry it really doesn't mean anything (except for the fact that you can commit to something.)

As regards security, I learnt just by messing around for years. A very small company I worked for (they are now these guys - http://www.lincor.com), forced me to learn a bit about everything cause we didn't have the staff. A lot of the development work I was doing was encryption stuff (blowfish in particular) so I got interested in security that way.

You should set up a small network at home, a Linux server with Linux and Windows connected to it, and start running hacking scripts against the server. It's fun and you learn a lot... then you try to secure the server and try to break into it again... that's pretty much how I got to where I am now with my current work.

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by Repli
I'd rather not - you're just jumping from extreme to extreme. How do you know what I learn and don't learn in my course? 2 people in my class have been offered a 1 year work placement in oracle from september on and have NO experience in IT and just 2 years of their degree completed.

Dude, I used to work for Oracle. Unless they work in the Tools group (where I did), they'll be doing retard work. The Tools group are still the only Oracle development team in Ireland. They have "software engineers", but in Oracle that means zipping up files etc.

I know they don't teach OS development (practical stuff, not theory) in college. Am I wrong?

Again, let's cool this. I really don't wanna fight. I left college quite a few years ago so I know what I'm talking about!!

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by neXus9
If there is a company standard cert for network security, would it be the one from cisco (CIE security), or would security+ be enough (doubt it)?

Sorry, to answer your question, I'm really not sure.

Try asking here -

http://www.webhostingtalk.com

They're very knowledgeable on this stuff there.

Repli

Grand

You do your thing I'll do mine

neXus9

Thanks, Johnny

Gummy Panda

Originally posted by neXus9
If there is a company standard cert for network security, would it be the one from cisco (CIE security), or would security+ be enough (doubt it)?

Another nice thing to do is get the CCNA qualification from cisco. Thats what i'm gonna do in the summer, then move onto the other levels.

Now you have to enjoy networking. I actually enjoy it. Good craic linking up routers and switches. only headache (and it can be just a mild one) is writing out large documentation on your network. But isn't everything paper-work these days?

neXus9

Another nice thing to do is get the CCNA qualification from cisco. Thats what i'm gonna do in the summer, then move onto the other levels.

I don't have any routers to play around with, so doing that cert is gonna be a killer, but it's recognised above the MCSE, isn't it?

Gummy Panda

Well, if you buy the CCNA book, you get a online version of the book which has flash movies that simulate configuring the router in hyperterminal like you would in the lab.

So you could do all the labwork at home with a pc who has a browser and flash installed. Book is about €60-80.

CCNA is well recognised but you would wanna move onto the later levels of Cisco's trainning program.

Gaz

I wouldnt say CCNA is above MCSE , there both pretty worthless , i have both and yes it will help in getting you a interview but unless you have really studied and learned the stuff there not worth a toss.

Braindumps have ruined the crediblity of MCSE , too many mcse's out there that couldnt change a floppy drive.

But i would recommend CCNA as a starting point on getting into the router/switch side of things ... after CCNA is CCNP which is 4 exams then its the CCIE , CCIE is suppose to be the most difficult of ALL IT certifications , its made up of a written exam where you basically need to know everything about cisco and i mean everything then its of to Belgium (i think) for a 1 day lab exam.

Personally id recommend collage , while there you can do MCP , MCSA , MCSE , CCNA and maybe even CCNP in your own time at night.

Im travelling around the world backpacking at the moment but my plan when i return is collage and CCNP and maybe start on some CISSP (security). I have a place in Trinity doing IT & Business degree , deferred for a year. Oh and im nearly 25 so dont worry about age.

neXus9

Braindumps have ruined the crediblity of MCSE , too many mcse's out there that couldnt change a floppy drive

I know what you mean, but ms are starting to sue the living hell out of these companies. I'm doing my test on monday and the way I did it was to use the exam cram books (about 300 pages), which are terrific and get to the point, where the ms books tend to spend too much time with their ms talk and the pages are very sparse (although they do give more pictures, but the books are quite expensive).

leahcim

I think Johnny Versace is correct insaying that a degree doesen't really reflect on how talented you are as an IT worker or a software engineer.

The main problem arises due to the lack of quality IT jobs, when companies advertise a position they get hundreds of CVs they need some way to filter down the the applicant list for the interview stage unfortunately they use things like education and experience to do this. I know of situations where companies advertised a position and they had over 40 applicants who had more than 5 years experience, the company had no choice but reduce the list based on the candidates education.

If I were starting out as a software engineer again I would write a few demo apps and submit them with my CV, companies may like your initiave and give you a chance. Professional certification also helps, if your a java developer having the Sun Microsystems certification helps in a big way.

neXus9

Has anyone tried to get into the us? I guess it's just as tough, but hey, it's a bigger place, and therefore more opportunities. I heard though, that the hours are crazy, something like 12 hrs a day!!

Gummy Panda

Originally posted by leahcim
Professional certification also helps, if your a java developer having the Sun Microsystems certification helps in a big way.

Not true!!

Ask most programmers and they will tell you that your degree is the better then that. When you're good, you're good. its as simple as that. The submitting apps is a good idea. Maybe do some work for free for some small company so that you have something to demostrate.

leahcim

Clownboy I agree that certification is no replacement for a degree, not even near.

I was just making the point that if you dont have a degree it helps.

If somebody hasn't a degree or the time and energy to do one they must find another was of making themselves stand out from the crowd when applying for a job.

Saying "When you're good, you're good. its as simple as that. " is fine but how is an employer supposed to know that.

Gummy Panda

The demo's like you said. Which is a really good idea. It would show exactly how you code, structure it and comment it. Plus if you included the full documentation, they can see that you are knowledgable in design practices.

Johnny Versace

Check out my friends website - http://www.badpint.org

He wrote these to show off his IT skills. It got him an interview in http://www.<URL-EDITED-OUT>.com (good ****) amongst other places.

neXus9

AN OS for the gameboy advance?? That's one sure way to grab someone's attention.

What's flash development like? I always had an interest in making my own little games. Also want to try out programming to see what it's like (you hear of some people becoming 'obssessed' by the hobby). Can programming become addictive?

I was looking at the fetac website and they have a list of colleges that you can get into with their certs---click!

Wondering what the best college out of these is, (combining the social life and the quality of the courses)???

Gummy Panda

I'd recommend ITB, mate.

http://www.itb.ie/prospectivestudents/courses/bn002.html

neXus9

Thanks. Clownboy, do you know any good multimedia courses, so I could combine stuff like flash/web development with TV and video. Have an interest in stuff like cinematography, but also have an interest in IT. Doing a multimedia course would, in a way, hit two birds with one stone. Then one qualification would complement the other (I could do my mcse/rhce/ccna stuff during the summer/on my spare time).




I still don't know exxxactly what I want to do. Which is good, and bad. There is still other diverse stuff that I want to at least have a go at, like for instance; psychology, which interests me in the way as it might come as a great advantage in dealing with situations (Life), but having said that I can be quite neurotic at times, and I don't know if I could handle talking to rapists, peadophiles, fetish freaks etc., (also that the fact that you may have to become a surrogate nanny for some people).

Since I'm doing IT work I could always try going into other sides of things like IT managment, or IT marketing.


I did a fetac two month incompany training programme in DELL in Bray which was a great experience. I would like to be a system's admin, but I don't know about being in charge of routers (I'm way more of a software guy, than a hardware one).