Bomb attack in Madrid

swiss

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=aUMvf4daYULc&refer=germany

This is possibly the largest terror attack in Spain in living memory, to my knowledge. Early estimates show 50 dead and 200 wounded. I can't claim to be an authority on ETA or their struggle for independence, but I can't help but feel that this won't help them.

The report:

March 11 (Bloomberg) -- Three bomb attacks on trains full of morning commuters killed about 50 people in Madrid, Spanish television station TVE reported. Spain's Red Cross said at least 200 people were injured.

Police said it was too early to say whether they suspect ETA, the Basque terrorist group that government and police officials say has been increasing terror attacks in the weeks leading up to Spain's general election on Sunday.

Three bombs went off between 7:30 a.m. and 8 a.m. near three train stations, a National Police spokeswoman said. The stations were El Pozo, Santa Eugenia, and Atocha, which is Madrid's main hub serving southern cities.

``It was horrendous,'' said a woman who was on one train, speaking to government-run TVE television news. ``There was the explosion and then people started to run full of blood.''

Television showed images of dozens of victims with heads or arms bandaged, limping and clinging on to rescue workers. The camera showed one train car ripped in half.

Some of the train cars destroyed were on the line connecting Guadalajara, northeast of Madrid, to the capital city.

An Interior Ministry spokesman made no immediate comment.

ETA, which has killed more than 830 people in its campaign for Basque independence, planned to bomb electricity towers to disrupt the wedding of Spanish Prince Felipe to Letizia Ortiz, a former television news presenter, La Vanguardia reported last week, citing unidentified court officials.

Spanish police averted a bomb attack by ETA, stopping a truck carrying explosives on the way to the capital almost two weeks ago, Agence France-Presse reported, citing Spain's Interior Minister Angel Acebes.

In December Spanish anti-terrorism police arrested people trying to bomb trains on Christmas Eve, they said in December.

shotamoose

Looks horrible. And no, it doesn't seem like the brightest move on the part of ETA, if it was them.

ReefBreak

All trademarks show it was Sinn Féin's best friends in Spain: ETA - the existence of the getaway car is the main reason they're suspected at the moment (rather than Al Qaeda).

Sparks

Death toll is now over 120. The scene is just utter carnage - sections of the train are just gone.

midget lord

terrorists rely on popular sympathy, and im afraid ETA are going to loose any of that they currently have. Same scenario as with the IRA and omagh. Fuppin sick.

SheroN

The real IRA you mean surely?

Has it been confirmed ETA did it?

midget lord

The "I cant believe its not the IRA", whatever.

ReefBreak

Apparently they've found the getaway car, which bears the hallmarks of an ETA attack, i.e. like the RIRA or the IRA they ran away like the cowardly scum that they are.

pork99

it doesn't seem like the brightest move on the part of ETA, if it was them.

<revolutionarylogic>
Nonsense! A glorious blow for Basque Freedom! To hell with trains, commuters, cities, anyone with a third level education and anyone who wears glasses (glasses = probably a reader).
</revolutionarylogic>


Seriously though ones blood runs cold at thoughts of how "people" like ETA would behave if they achieved their aims and gained control over the Basque lands (this will never happen as they have almost no support among Basques). People who will do things like this are certainly not democrats. If victorious their next victims would be any Basque people who disagreed with being ruled by murderous criminals. (See Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung etc)

SheroN

In fairness I don't condone what the IRA or real-IRA did in the past, but it's a little different. The IRA always gave warnings to the best of my knowledge?

midget lord

Ah i see, fair play to them.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by SheroN
In fairness I don't condone what the IRA or real-IRA did in the past, but it's a little different. The IRA always gave warnings to the best of my knowledge?

Well, you're wrong. They didn't give warnings for the Birmingham pub bombs, or Enniskillen, or La Mon, and hundreds more. In fact, ETA base themselves on the IRA terrorist model.

SheroN

I see. Anyway I think we should keep this about the topic at hand and not bring the (R)IRA into it.

yellum

Originally posted by SheroN
The IRA always gave warnings to the best of my knowledge?

Not always no.

Looks like this was done as the general election is on its way. I doubt this is going to do anything for their "cause".

ReefBreak

Considering ETA have received support (money and training) from the IRA in the past, plus the fact that the IRA call themselves Irish, for these reasons I think we should be mentioning it.

SheroN

Death toll has risen to 130+

Mighty_Mouse

FFS Reefbreak you really will twist every negative piece of information you can get your hands on; to be about the IRA. !:rolleyes:

The fact that you have said more about the IRA than ETA/ Basque struggle for independance is lunacy.

Its a tradegy that so many people died.

The "I cant believe its not the IRA", whatever.

If your gonna argue against the IRA, you should probably get your facts straight! The Real IRA bombed Omagh.

You wuldnt want to look like a moron who's opinion is pure drivel, would you.

At least Reefbreak hints at a little knowledge on the subject sometimes:D

star gazer

Disgusting piece of savegry. Slaughtering commuters is going to turn everyone against them, their support will quickly rescind into the wilderness.

ReefBreak

Actually, I was only putting an Irish perspective on it, because we know as a fact that there is long historical connection between the IRA and ETA.
Have the IRA supplied bomb-making technology to ETA?
Have the IRA supplied training to ETA?
And if they have, then those Irish people that support the IRA are in some way complicit in the tragedy.

MojoMaker

I wonder is it merely a coincidence that Spain was/is George Bush's closest ally in Europe after Tony Blair? Was it only a matter of time before a serious strike was made in Spain using the conduit of an existing local terrorist group?

ETA *may* have executed this, but who planned it? Tis far bigger than anything ETA have even undertaken before and the nature of the multiple coordinated attacks could be a finger in the face of the pro-American establishment as much as anything to do with Basque freedom.

ambasite

pure evil. dark age. that these groups are still willing to slaughter innocent people for outdated nationalistic notions is bizarre, assuming that it was ETA.

ReefBreak

The Spanish govt are blaming ETA, but according to Yahoo:

But the leader of the banned Basque separatist party Batasuna blamed "Arab resistance" instead. Arnaldo Otegi said he "refused to believe" Eta was responsible.

So the leader is either lying, doesn't know, or it could be Arab terrorists are responsible. Incidentally I find it sickening that he uses the term "Arab resistance".

TwoShedsJackson

Seems unlikely that ETA would do this as the death toll would be totally counter-productive. They normally concentrate on one-off hits against Government councillors and the likes.

kiffer

I just had a spanish girl leave the call shop crying ... I wonder why.
I have a lot of worried looking spanish people coming in ...
some are leaving looking ok... some are not.

Zombrex

Originally posted by ReefBreak
The Spanish govt are blaming ETA, but according to Yahoo:
So the leader is either lying, doesn't know, or it could be Arab terrorists are responsible. Incidentally I find it sickening that he uses the term "Arab resistance".

I would say it is possible that something went wrong and now they are trying to distance themselves from such a huge death toll, like the R-IRA did with Omagh when they started blaming the police for not listening to their "warnings".

pork99

Originally posted by MojoMaker
ETA *may* have executed this, but who planned it? Tis far bigger than anything ETA have even undertaken before and the nature of the multiple coordinated attacks could be a finger in the face of the pro-American establishment as much as anything to do with Basque freedom.

Perhaps theres a really sinister possibility that ETA have formed some sort of "strategic alliance" with al Qaeda? (possible but improbable)

However I think we may be indulging in Sky News style wild speculation in the absence of hard facts. An expert on ETA, Paddy Woodworth, was on that channel about 1/2 an hour ago and he was saying that the scale of the operation is far beyond anything ETA have done before and also does not conform to their previous operating procedures with lack of any warning.

Let's wait and see.

ReefBreak

Spanish police managed to foil an attack on a train line earlier in the month. Also, a suspected getaway car exploded this morning when approached by the polive (a common ETA technique).

Obviously, the fact that there was no warning, plus the scale of the attack could mean it is the work of Arab terrorists. We'll find out soon enough.

GuanYin

ETA have denied it apparently, there is growing opinion that Arab resistance may be involved.

death toll at 173 with 500 injured. apparently there was a 4th attack, but not confirmed.

pdh

Its very sad that this has happened, however if it does turn out that ETA were responsible, then I can’t help thinking that the PP government also share some blame.
The PP government have spent that last few years involved in widespread repression against Basque society and refusing to get involved in any form of dialogue with the Basque Independence movement. As far as I know the Spanish government even brought in a law that gives a 5 year jail sentence to anyone who advocates Basque independence in a peaceful manner !!!!

ReefBreak

Originally posted by pdh
Its very sad that this has happened, however if it does turn out that ETA were responsible, then I can’t help thinking that the PP government also share some blame.
The PP government have spent that last few years involved in widespread repression against Basque society and refusing to get involved in any form of dialogue with the Basque Independence movement. As far as I know the Spanish government even brought in a law that gives a 5 year jail sentence to anyone who advocates Basque independence in a peaceful manner !!!!

You're wrong. There are mainstream parties in the Basque country who aim for independence (like the SDLP in the North) in a peaceful manner. They did ban the political wing of ETA - the Batasuna party - a couple of years ago.

As for your guff about the Spanish govt: typical pro-terrorist rhetoric, try and spread the blame around, on anyone other than the terrorists themselves. By the way, there has been no "widespread repression" against Basque society (other than the repression dreamed up by Marxist pro-ETA members), unless you count putting ETA members behind bars, which is of course, a good thing.

Mighty_Mouse

Jeez! Reefbreak you are extreme. To claim that ther has been no repression of the Basque. :eek:

martarg

I have been reading a few of your messages on this morning's train bombing, and I cannot help but feel that the reality of Basque terrorism in Spain is far more complex than it appears to be perceived abroad. As a Spaniard I wish with all my heart that this morning's brutality would make those beasts lose popular favour in the Basque country and bring the solution a little closer, but things are a little more complicated than that. Attitude to Basque terrorism usually becomes intermingled with a whole series of political sub-issues, and sadly, until we learn to separate them, terrorists will succeed in dividing democratic parties as they have always tried to do whenever they plant a bomb or shoot a politician.

Unfortunately whenever something like that happens in this country, the next step is for political parties to jump at each other's throats, the conservative government reproaching the rest of political parties for their indifference, and the others by accusing the government of taking political advantage of terrorist attacks, and refusing to issue an outright and unqualified condemnation, because either they share their goals in the case of nationalist parties, or would rather die than being seen to agree with the government on anything whatever. Everybody will claim they are sorry for all these horrible deaths, and then go on to attack their political opponents.

martarg

How on earth can you justify any terrorist attack whatever on the grounds that we must have done something to deserve it?

For the rest, I am afraid you have been misinformed on that five-year sentence for "advocating independence by peaceful means" (???) The only "nationalist" crime that can put you in trouble with Spanish Justice, apart from terrorist activities themselves, is "apology of terrorism". If you are referring to Javier Atucha's predicament, that has only to do with the fact that he is defying the law and refusing to proceed with the banning of the terrorists' political wing from the basque parliament. Unfortunately for him, he is invoking powers he still doesn't have, and defying a judicial order. I suppose any country's judicial system would have to enforce its own mandates....

Sand

I cant think of a worse terrorist attack on European soil since WW2 to be honest [EDIT] Now that I think of it, a lot of the killings in the former Yugoslavia could be considered terrorist attacks as well as being war crimes [EDIT]. Its too early to say whose to blame thought the prime suspects will be ETA ( Theyre hardly going to crow about this atrocity - even they must be clever enough to recognise its a PR disaster if they did it ) and of course Al-Queda/Islamic terrorists. The timing of the attack in relation to the elections may or may not be coincidental. Certainly attacking the trains at rush hour indicates a real and murderous desire to kill as absolutely many people as possible. Personally, to me this makes me think ETA is less likely to be responsible as they have *mostly* restricted themselves to targeting politicans/police/military and have apparently a habit of giving warnings. For an organisation with a politcal wing an attack like this is the supidest thing they could do - only their most dyed in the wool supporters could stand behind it. According to some expert they had on the radio there, there is apparently a schism of sort in the ETA movement over future direction. It could be an ultra-violent dissident faction, much as the RIRA operated.

But like I said, I find it more likely its Islamic fundamentalists, punishing Spain for supporting the US, for providing troops in Iraq and generally being part of the coalition of the willing. If thats the way it plays out then it will be interesting to see if it will either lead to pressure on the Spanish government to pull out of the coalition, or if it will toughen Spanish support - much as the blitz did more to boost the defiance of the British rather than subdue it.

And will it encourage the EU to get even stronger against terrorist groups and cells inside the EU? If it is Al-Queda or some buddy group of it then Ground Zero will have shifted from NY to Madrid. How will Spain and the EU react to this unprecedented terrorist attack? Several EU nations are already part of the coalition of the willing, so theyre likely to restrict any reaction to simply defensive security measures and possible deportation of people even suspected of terrorist links ( unlikely but possible )

Playing devils advocate here a bit, but Im surprised were not hearing more about "oppression" the Spanish government have inflicted and "understanding" the terrorists (sorry, freedom fighters forced to take desperate measure due to their desperate standard of living) who were behind the attacks. What happened today is no different to any other terrorist attack - some groups just have better PR. ETA have better PR than Al-Queda, and other groups have aligned themselves as every activists favourite "desperate freedom fighters against the oppressive state" organisation.

Senor_Fudge

I wonder is it merely a coincidence that Spain was/is George Bush's closest ally in Europe after Tony Blair? Was it only a matter of time before a serious strike was made in Spain using the conduit of an existing local terrorist group?

well since thats the case it makes sense it was only a matter of time before something happened. In my opinion they all got off very light regards the futile war in iraq. Maybe its pay back time or perhaps it was a botched job , why would they kill so many people? Were there officials among them (hardly on a train in spain)

Sparks

Originally posted by Senor_Fudge
well since thats the case it makes sense it was only a matter of time before something happened. In my opinion they all got off very light regards the futile war in iraq. Maybe its pay back time or perhaps it was a botched job , why would they kill so many people? Were there officials among them (hardly on a train in spain)

You'd better hope that you're incorrect - we're on the list of people in the EU who helped the US, and unlike spain, we don't have the budget for large-scale counter-terrorist operations, and you don't want to give McDowell that kind of excuse. He'd make Bush's rolling back of civil liberties in the US look like naptime in kindergarden.

geezup

Death toll at 173 with 898 injured ...

It's been confirmed by the Spanish goverment it's been ETA again.... they already tried the same back on Christmas Eve.

Being Spanish myself, i just can say it's a really sad day, and i just don't understand why... why would they kill normal people.... students, workers.... what for ? Its just unbelievable how mean a human being can be.

So far everybody i know is fine, but i'm still missing news from a few friends.

geezup

even more bad news (officially confirmed)

186 dead and more than 1000 injured ...

shotamoose

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Incidentally I find it sickening that he uses the term "Arab resistance".

Which bit do you find sickening, the 'Arab' bit or the 'resistance' bit?

Originally posted by pdh
Its very sad that this has happened, however if it does turn out that ETA were responsible, then I can’t help thinking that the PP government also share some blame.

Originally posted by Reefbreak
typical pro-terrorist rhetoric, try and spread the blame around, on anyone other than the terrorists themselves.

Jesus Reefbreak, did you even read what he said?? He said 'share some of the blame', not 'take all the blame away from those immediately responsible'.

Originally posted by Sand
Im surprised were not hearing more about "oppression" the Spanish government have inflicted and "understanding" the terrorists (sorry, freedom fighters forced to take desperate measure due to their desperate standard of living) who were behind the attacks. What happened today is no different to any other terrorist attack - some groups just have better PR. ETA have better PR than Al-Queda, and other groups have aligned themselves as every activists favourite "desperate freedom fighters against the oppressive state" organisation.

Yes, let's take this opportunity to quash any attempt to understand either terrorism or any anti-state force. And to make sure nobody ever tries such a thing, let's always make sure to put "oppression" and "understanding" in quotation marks, since those words should never, ever be taken seriously. And let's accuse anyone who criticises this of being soft on terrorism, whatever they actually say or think about the subject.

shotamoose

Originally posted by geezup

It's been confirmed by the Spanish goverment it's been ETA again.... they already tried the same back on Christmas Eve.

But how can they know this? Was there any warning, has anyone claimed responsibility? It seems to me that they're rushing to judgement a bit.

Being Spanish myself, i just can say it's a really sad day, and i just don't understand why... why would they kill normal people.... students, workers.... what for ? Its just unbelievable how mean a human being can be.

Indeed it is. Hope you hear from your friends soon.

Redleslie

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Have the IRA supplied training to ETA?
And if they have, then those Irish people that support the IRA are in some way complicit in the tragedy.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
typical pro-terrorist rhetoric, try and spread the blame around, on anyone other than the terrorists themselves.

Does anyone else see an interesting example of moronic hypocritical knee jerkism at play here? Using this outrageous atrocity as an excuse to get on a high horse and have a go at republicans or any other local political bogeymen is pretty bloody disgusting imo.


My sympathies to any Spanish person reading this or anyone who has friends in Madrid.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Redleslie
Does anyone else see an interesting example of moronic hypocritical knee jerkism at play here? Using this outrageous atrocity as an excuse to get on a high horse and have a go at republicans or any other local political bogeymen is pretty bloody disgusting imo.

My sympathies to any Spanish person reading this or anyone who has friends in Madrid.

I make no apology for any of my statements. One of the most savagely brutal terrorist attacks ever seen in Europe has been committed today. In all likelyhood, it was done by ETA. I believe ETA and their political wing Batasuna had delegates attending the Sinn Féin Árd Dheis only 2 weeks ago, where Sinn Féin expressed support for ETA's "cause".

martarg

And no-one is rushing to judgement. Two terrorists were already arrested on Christmas Eve for attempting the same thing, and a van loaded with a large amount of explosives was intercepted a few days ago, but there are other reasons to suspect that this has nothing to do with any other terrorist group but ETA, whatever Otegi may say to throw dust in anyone's eyes... even if ETA did not send polite warnings this time, there is no suicide bomber involved, and some of the THIRTEEN backpack bombs had been set to explode later than others in order to hit the police as well, as they have done other times. This has nothing to do with Bush, Aznar, 11 September, or Iraq, whatever we may think about any of those issues... this is the same old story with ETA, only this time they have gone too far even for their sick standards...

bonkey

Originally posted by Mighty-Mouse
You wuldnt want to look like a moron who's opinion is pure drivel, would you.

and

Originally posted by Redleslie
Does anyone else see an interesting example of moronic hypocritical knee jerkism at play here? Using this outrageous atrocity as an excuse to get on a high horse and have a go at republicans or any other local political bogeymen is pretty bloody disgusting imo.

Gents...I would strongly suggest that you tone your wording down. Reefbreak is as entitled to his opinion as you are to yours. He, at least, is doing everyone else the (required) courtesy of being civil while he makes his point.

jc

kiffer

Originally posted by shotamoose
But how can they know this? Was there any warning, has anyone claimed responsibility? It seems to me that they're rushing to judgement a bit.

We see this happen all the time...

remember the time animal rights activists planted a bomb at the grand nationals (or some other race) and the media, and people kept saying it was probably the IRA then switched to say it was the ira, as if they had proof, then it turned out not to be them ... the media never/polititions never say they where wrong, ever.

shotamoose

Originally posted by bonkey
Gents...I would strongly suggest that you tone your wording down. Reefbreak is as entitled to his opinion as you are to yours. He, at least, is doing everyone else the (required) courtesy of being civil while he makes his point.

jc

Calling someone 'pro-terrorist' because they think someone else might share some of the blame is being civil? Unless 'pro-terrorist' is now some kind of harmless euphemism commonly bandied about between friends, isn't he accusing pdh of approving of the Madrid attack and other acts of murder? Just because the syntax was tidy doesn't make the accusation any less serious.

magpie

186 dead and 1000 injured according to the latest news coverage. I was in Atocha station recently, a beautiful place with palms, wild birds, turtles... an oasis of calm until today. A sad day for Madrillenos. RIP all.

geezup

Originally posted by martarg
And no-one is rushing to judgement. Two terrorists were already arrested on Christmas Eve for attempting the same thing, and a van loaded with a large amount of explosives was intercepted a few days ago, but there are other reasons to suspect that this has nothing to do with any other terrorist group but ETA, whatever Otegi may say to throw dust in anyone's eyes... even if ETA did not send polite warnings this time, there is no suicide bomber involved, and some of the THIRTEEN backpack bombs had been set to explode later than others in order to hit the police as well, as they have done other times. This has nothing to do with Bush, Aznar, 11 September, or Iraq, whatever we may think about any of those issues... this is the same old story with ETA, only this time they have gone too far even for their sick standards...

totally agree with that...

I don't think IRA trained ETA or anything like that but its well known, they had exchange information in the past and they do sympathise each other.

Last nite, 2 people were throwing away fliers in San Sebastian (one of the main cities in the Basque Country) encouraging people to attack Spanish trains.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by shotamoose
Calling someone 'pro-terrorist' because they think someone else might share some of the blame is being civil? Unless 'pro-terrorist' is now some kind of harmless euphemism commonly bandied about between friends, isn't he accusing pdh of approving of the Madrid attack and other acts of murder? Just because the syntax was tidy doesn't make the accusation any less serious.

I was not accusing PDH of being pro-terrorist - what I was saying was that it was typical of the language used by pro-terrorist people, i.e. those that support IRA or ETA or AL Qaeda or Hamas. It's a common technique: blame everyone else apart from the people that actually committed the atrocity.

shotamoose

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I was not accusing PDH of being pro-terrorist - what I was saying was that it was typical of the language used by pro-terrorist people,

Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick, but you didn't go out of the way to make the distinction yourself.

It's a common technique: blame everyone else apart from the people that actually committed the atrocity.

And it's a common technique to label any attempt to suggest that someone else may share some of the responsibility 'pro-terrorist'. A technique which does more harm than good.

martarg

We could make a bet on who is behind this, but I have coexisted with ETA all my life, and seen their mode of operation explained with every new attack, and I have heard the information on today's attack, and I cannot find a reason to suppose that it was not them. Doubting that it may have been them, is straining the supposition much more strongly than going the opposite way. I cannot claim to know much about the IRA, I am only explaining how the Madrid tragedy looks to the common sense of any Spaniard. What would you think if Basque terrorists had been arrested only a few days ago with the evidence that they were preparing for something like this? If the planting fitted their usual method in everything but the "polite call", which has not actually happened on every single occasion in the course of thirty years? I may turn out to be wrong, anything is possible, but I have not a shadow of a doubt about ETA's responsibility.