Bringing Irish back into the public domain

Gleanndún

Originally posted by Johnmb
[BActually, I'd disagree with that last assessment. I reckon that is what made Ireland so difficult to invade. Look at England for an example. The Vikings conquered large parts because once they beat one king they took over. In Ireland they only managed a few settlements, because once they beat one king, there was another waiting for them. The same went for the Normans. They arrived in c. 1169 IIRC, and yet it took until c. 1603 (maybe even later) before they completed the task. How many other areas the size of Ireland can you name that took so long to conquer?[/B]

wut did the normans conquer??

mudflapgirl

/me long winded piece
I remember hating Irish classes, the teachers never taught it the same way French or German was taught. All we did was learn the basics (conas ata tu? etc) and then forced to read long texts and passages from books that were of no interest to us. Whereas French and German were always made fun - puzzles, games, programmes, films even comics and magazines. Granted alot of the time (in the 80's anyway) there was nothing like that in Irish. But how hard would it be to play hangman or scrabble in Irish. It makes learning fun and I think it would be (and is) a good way to encourage people to learn Irish.
Personally, I can't speak Irish very well. I'm ashamed of myself, it was through my apathy and hatred of the classes when I was growing up that I now can barely hold even the most basic of conversations in our native language. I once saw 2 children, no more than 6 or 7 yrs old, in a Mcdonald's (in Dublin) speaking fluent Irish, it was lovely to see but made me sad that we don't/can't all do it.
I have every intention of re-learing Irish, my husband is the same. We try to make the time to watch TG4 everyday, even if it is only Ros na Run. But because most of the programming has English subtitles alot of the time you find yourself reading them instead of listening to the words. There's a nice little programme on RTE (1 I think) during the week, around 7/7.30pm that's great. It teaches Irish, but not the stuffy old type of Irish. Irish for a modern Ireland, not Anglicised Irish either where car is gcarr and not gluastain (sp?), you learn how to ask people out, buy things and book resturants etc etc the same way you would with a foreign language.

Belgium had the same problems years and years ago with Flemish, they suceeded where, I fear, Ireland might fail. I remember 2 Belgian girls in my school, while we had Irish, they were allowed to learn Flemish, off their own backs I might add, no one forced them to learn Flemish. They didn't need Flemish to get by everyday at home in Belgium, let alone here in Ireland. They just wanted to learn their native language for themselves because they wanted to. It was lovely to see. If only we could motivate ourselves to learn our own language in the same way.

It wouldn't take much from the government to encourage Irish learning. Giving more funding to Gaelige concerns, changing a few roadsigns in the eastern parts of the country, encouraging companies to print brochures and leaflets/instructions As Gaelige aswell as English. Going to the West (Galway, Mayo any of the counties that way) is refreshing, you can go into a shop and speak Irish, no matter how rudimentry it is. People enjoy helping others with their Irish, it shows respect for our past and who we are. It can be all ceili's and whatnot but it can also be great craic.
If you made it this far, I thank you.

Johnmb

Originally posted by Gleanndún
wut did the normans conquer??

A complete list? Well, they did conquer England and Wales. You could say that hey conquered parts of Northern France. They conquered Ireland too, and also eventually conquered Scotland . Many people call them Anglo-Normans at that stage. I would have thought that most Irish people would at least have been aware that Ireland was eventually conquered, I mean it hasn't even been 100 years since independence.

magpie

Dhia dhaoibh... ta me anseo aris...

Now, back to the history.

and then of course the Brits invaded and changed everything for the worse, nearly wiped out our culture and destroyed our language.

Anyone who refers to the invasion of 1169 as being perpetrated by "The Brits" obviously has a very tenuous grasp on history. It was the Normans, who had most recently conquered the English. If you want to blame anyone try blaming them. Then again, they were descended from Viking settlers in Northern France so there is quite a nice continuity in Viking-descended Normans being asked nicely by the native Irish to come over and help them beat the Norwegian King of Dublin....

Concepts of nationality that are being bandied around here are purely 19th Century constructs, and therefore it is completely anachronistic to apply them to 12th Century events.

The native Irish were subjugated by the Normans, not the brits, not the english. Perhaps a slightly more left-wing approach to history would allow the various inhabitants of these islands to look at their history not so much through the artificial constructs of nationality which are used to divide us, (the resurrection of dead languages as a means of differentiating very closely related peoples being one of the most divisive forms of cultural seperatism out there), and more through our communal experiences at the brunt of a hierarchical system which favours the rich and powerful and keeps the poor in their place. A system which has been very much embraced by 'post-colonial' Ireland. It is widely accepted that the Irish Revolution (for want of a better term), which was one of the most liberal of its kind in the early 20th Century, produced one of the most conservative, isolationist and inward-looking states in Europe; a state of affairs that only began to end in the 1990s.

So I say look forward, to Europe, to progress... abandon the chains of our peasant past, let poor old Irish die a graceful death and let's get on with learning some useful languages, like French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese.

*APPLAUSE*

Oh, and take away the GAA's funding unless they allow other sports in Croke Park. It's not 1919 any more boys....

Johnmb

Originally posted by magpie
Anyone who refers to the invasion of 1169 as being perpetrated by "The Brits" obviously has a very tenuous grasp on history. It was the Normans, who had most recently conquered the English. If you want to blame anyone try blaming them. Then again, they were descended from Viking settlers in Northern France so there is quite a nice continuity in Viking-descended Normans being asked nicely by the native Irish to come over and help them beat the Norwegian King of Dublin....
That's not correct either. They were not invited over to beat the (by then "more Irish than the Irish") King of Dublin. They were invited over to help restore the diposed King of Leinster. They didn't go near Dublin until they realised that promises made to them could not be honoured, so they decided to invade.

Concepts of nationality that are being bandied around here are purely 19th Century constructs, and therefore it is completely anachronistic to apply them to 12th Century events.
Well, maybe. The concept of a single ruler was there in the 12 Century. And there was only about half a dozen powerful kings capable. Had the Normans not arrived, Ireland would most likely have become a single political entity within a few hundred years in any case.

The native Irish were subjugated by the Normans, not the brits, not the english. Perhaps a slightly more left-wing approach to history would allow the various inhabitants of these islands to look at their history not so much through the artificial constructs of nationality which are used to divide us, (the resurrection of dead languages as a means of differentiating very closely related peoples being one of the most divisive forms of cultural seperatism out there)
Irish has never been a "dead" language, although it has been close. It is also a part of who we are, even when we aren't using it. The dialect of English we use takes several points from Irish (e.g. terms such as "does be" and "do be", while not correct English, are used in Hiberno-English, due to "Bí" in Irish).

and more through our communal experiences at the brunt of a hierarchical system which favours the rich and powerful and keeps the poor in their place. A system which has been very much embraced by 'post-colonial' Ireland. It is widely accepted that the Irish Revolution (for want of a better term), which was one of the most liberal of its kind in the early 20th Century, produced one of the most conservative, isolationist and inward-looking states in Europe; a state of affairs that only began to end in the 1990s.
In fairness, a lot of that was to do with the Europe that existed at the time.

So I say look forward, to Europe, to progress... abandon the chains of our peasant past, let poor old Irish die a graceful death and let's get on with learning some useful languages, like French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese.
And what makes them any more useful than Irish? Why not let those languages die and get everyone speaking English? That would make much more sense. (BTW, Chinese is not a language so it is out of place in your list)

Oh, and take away the GAA's funding unless they allow other sports in Croke Park. It's not 1919 any more boys....
I'd agree with that.

magpie

They were not invited over to beat the (by then "more Irish than the Irish") King of Dublin. They were invited over to help restore the diposed King of Leinster.

And who did that involve fighting against then?

The dialect of English we use takes several points from Irish (e.g. terms such as "does be" and "do be", while not correct English, are used in Hiberno-English, due to "Bí" in Irish).

And there was me thinking it came from 16th Century Cornish Protestant settlers in the areas where this construct is found most prominently (e.g. Ringsend, Irishtown etc). Of course, in the event you are correct this is a wonderful example of cultural cross-pollenation, which I am all in favour of. I am against cultural division based on historical inacccuracies and the resurrection of practically dead languages for political purposes.

In fairness, a lot of that was to do with the Europe that existed at the time.

How so?

And what makes them any more useful than Irish?

Well, for starters they are languages in use every day by millions of people around the world. They are languages that are alive and developing. They are not the early 20th Century creation of a loose grouping of Anglo-Irish intellectuals to suit the needs of a a cultural seperatist movement. In short, they are real languages.

Why not let those languages die and get everyone speaking English? That would make much more sense

Quite so. As luck would have it, developments in international business look like having exactly that effect in future. In evolutionary terms English is a meteor strike and minority languages are Diplodoci.

BTW, Chinese is not a language so it is out of place in your list)

You are quite correct. I amend my list of examples to read 'Mandarin' instead.

I'd agree with that.

Go maith an fear, go h-anna mhaith ar fad etc etc etc.

simu

Anyone who refers to the invasion of 1169 as being perpetrated by "The Brits" obviously has a very tenuous grasp on history. It was the Normans, who had most recently conquered the English. If you want to blame anyone try blaming them. Then again, they were descended from Viking settlers in Northern France so there is quite a nice continuity in Viking-descended Normans being asked nicely by the native Irish to come over and help them beat the Norwegian King of Dublin....

The reason the English stand out more than the Normans as invaders is because the Normans became assimilated into Irish society and became "more Irish than the Irish themselves" whereas the English policy was based more on making the Irish adopt English culture. For example, Piaras Feirtéar, considered to be one of the greatest poets in the irish language, was of Norman descent.

It is meaningless blaming individual citizens of England for Ireland's history anyway. If you look at the Blasket Islands, it's because of visitors from England and other countries who took interest in the culture of the place (most Irish people of the time would have scoffed at it) that Seán Ó Criomhthain and all started writing.

Most Irish people want to differenciate themselves from the people of the surrounding countries. I'd rather see this being done by learning and speaking Irish than going around singing anti-English songs and boasting about how the Irish are the best drinkers in the world and so on.

So I say look forward, to Europe, to progress... abandon the chains of our peasant past, let poor old Irish die a graceful death and let's get on with learning some useful languages, like French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese.

It's not that simple - there are still people here who speak Irish and who are actively involved in Irish language culture plus many others who, while not being fluent in Irish, feel some closeness to the language as well. You can't just wipe out bits of a country's culture because they're a bit complicated.

magpie

You can't just wipe out bits of a country's culture because they're a bit complicated.

That's funny, I thought that the resurrection of Irish was to try and do exactly that... to deny several hundred years of Ireland's cultural development, to play down anything that was viewed as suspect of 'british influence' and glorify a mythological time before 'the brits' when Ireland was a wonderful, happy democracy ruled by wise warrior kings...

Think of Ireland post 1922 in terms of Pol Pot's 'Year Zero' and you're on the right track. Why else do you think such large numbers of members of the protestant community felt compelled to up roots and move to England.

Johnmb

Originally posted by magpie
And who did that involve fighting against then?
The Kinsellas mainly, and possibly some of the smaller clans. I don't think the Uí Dunlainge were involved in a major way at that stage, but they did most likely assist in the overthrow originally.

And there was me thinking it came from 16th Century Cornish Protestant settlers in the areas where this construct is found most prominently (e.g. Ringsend, Irishtown etc).
Well, you learn something new every day.

Of course, in the event you are correct this is a wonderful example of cultural cross-pollenation, which I am all in favour of. I am against cultural division based on historical inacccuracies and the resurrection of practically dead languages for political purposes.
So now it was "practically" dead. The simple fact is a language is either dead or it isn't. Irish isn't. There is no more reson to try to kill it than there is to kill off any other language.

How so?
Have you ever read up on European history between the wars, and afterwards? In that climate, getting too close to one country meant you would most likely end up in a war with another. Ireland couldn't afford that, so we kept out of as much as possible. I might not agree with the reasoning, but at least I know that there were reasons.

Well, for starters they are languages in use every day by millions of people around the world.
Irish is in every day use by thousands of people. and the point of this thread was to make suggestions that would enable it to be used every day by millions of people, thereby putting it on a par with those other languages.

They are languages that are alive and developing.
As is Irish.

They are not the early 20th Century creation of a loose grouping of Anglo-Irish intellectuals to suit the needs of a a cultural seperatist movement.
Neither is Irish. Modern Irish can be traced back to the 4 century AD via many different developments, in a continuous line. English can't.

In short, they are real languages.
As is Irish.

Quite so. As luck would have it, developments in international business look like having exactly that effect in future. In evolutionary terms English is a meteor strike and minority languages are Diplodoci.
But English itself is changing. It is not adequate enough to be usfull for the whole world, so English as we speak it is not the same as it is spoken in (say) south east Asia. as a result, we will never speak the same every day language. So the existing languages may as well be kept. They serve the purposes of the people better than any other foreign language.

magpie

So now it was "practically" dead

Yes, this was a concession to your denial of it's status as an 'ex-language'. As far as I'm concerned it's as dead as the veritable dodo, but I didn't wish to argue the point as it is somewhat moot.

Have you ever read up on European history between the wars, and afterwards? In that climate, getting too close to one country meant you would most likely end up in a war with another.

Why, as a matter of fact I have. As it happens I'm not talking about 'getting close to' anywhere. I'm talking about being intellectually, morally and culturally open, rather than politically aligned to any one state. No wonder so many great Irish artists felt compelled to leave the country. Interestingly enough I was watching a very informative programme on the stained glass artist Harry Clarke who's masterwork was turned down by the Free State govt as being 'morally dubious' ( or words to that effect) on TG4. Ah the irony...

Irish is in every day use by thousands of people

Let's not exaggerate. If you had said 'hundreds' i would have let you away with it. And chuckies saying 'Slan' and 'Dhia Duit' to each other does not count as a langauge being in use.

Modern Irish can be traced back to the 4 century AD via many different developments, in a continuous line. English can't.

Unfortunately poor old english did not have the advantage of being preserved in metaphorical amber by only being spoken by the inhabitants of the most remote islands for several hundred years, so it could be restored Dr Moreau-like by foppish intellectual dandies with a taste for mythology, the supernatural, and each other. Rather it evolved from languages being spoken by Germanic tribesmen like the Angles who gave the language and country its name; it also, like most european languages, shares a common root with Latin. Had the inhabitants of Inis Mor succesfully colonised England and imposed their language I suspect with would have been quite difficult to recreate English from scratch.... but history had other ideas.

Esperanto... now there's a truly useful language

Johnmb

Originally posted by magpie
Let's not exaggerate. If you had said 'hundreds' i would have let you away with it. And chuckies saying 'Slan' and 'Dhia Duit' to each other does not count as a langauge being in use.
I said, and meant, thousands. Probably not getting close to tens of thousands, but still thousands none the less.

Unfortunately poor old english did not have the advantage of being preserved in metaphorical amber by only being spoken by the inhabitants of the most remote islands for several hundred years,
Actually, it did.

so it could be restored Dr Moreau-like by foppish intellectual dandies with a taste for mythology, the supernatural, and each other.
The only reason it can't be restored as far back is because it was not written down as far back. Irish was.

Rather it evolved from languages being spoken by Germanic tribesmen like the Angles who gave the language and country its name; it also, like most european languages, shares a common root with Latin.
As does Irish. In fact, being a Celtic language, Irish is a closer "cousin" to Latin than English is (being a germanic language).

Had the inhabitants of Inis Mor succesfully colonised England and imposed their language I suspect with would have been quite difficult to recreate English from scratch.... but history had other ideas.
Well, the inhabitants of Ireland did successfully colonise Scotland, and Pictish has proven quite difficult to recreate. But we also successfully colonised Wales and Corwall, yet the languages there survived. And English seemed to survive the Norman conquest just fine. So, tell me again, what was the point you were trying to make here?

magpie

My main point is that the revival of Irish is symptomatic of a cultural nationalism who's day has passed. The very fact that there are threads like this with people calling for it be used more serves to clearly illustrate that it is not a living language, otherwise it would be able to propagate itself. I have to admit I got sidetracked down some historical detours as a result of some posts by people with tricolours and poetry by Patrick Pearse as their sigs...

What's your point? Irish good, English bad?

Johnmb

Originally posted by magpie
My main point is that the revival of Irish is symptomatic of a cultural nationalism who's day has passed. The very fact that there are threads like this with people calling for it be used more serves to clearly illustrate that it is not a living language, otherwise it would be able to propagate itself. I have to admit I got sidetracked down some historical detours as a result of some posts by people with tricolours and poetry by Patrick Pearse as their sigs...

What's your point? Irish good, English bad?

My point is that being Irish is a cultural thing, not a political thing. And the language is a major part of our culture. Irish is a living language, but there is an attempt, whether deliberate or not, to kill it off. The main points raised in this thread would not actually revive Irish, they would merely stop its destruction. Once that is done, I would be quite confident that it would be able to propagate itself.

magpie

there is an attempt, whether deliberate or not, to kill it off.

What dark forces are behind this then?

Also, you say Irish is a part of our culture. I'm Irish and it has nothing to do with my culture. I'm from Dublin. I don't speak Irish. Why is it that the Irish-speaking movement feels it has the right to speak about my culture?

Johnmb

Originally posted by magpie
What dark forces are behind this then?
The ones who make decisions to promote English ahead of Irish at every opportunity. In most cases it is down to indifference, nothing more.

Also, you say Irish is a part of our culture. I'm Irish and it has nothing to do with my culture.
If you are Irish, then it has a lot to do with your culture.

I'm from Dublin. I don't speak Irish. Why is it that the Irish-speaking movement feels it has the right to speak about my culture?
Maybe because they know a little more about its history. Plus, I'm not speaking for all the Irish-speaking movements. Some people do attempt to make the language a political issue, I don't.

magpie

The ones who make decisions to promote English ahead of Irish at every opportunity

Who are these 'ones' of which you speak? You'll forgive me if this seems to me like a paranoid fantasy.

Johnmb

Originally posted by magpie
Who are these 'ones' of which you speak? You'll forgive me if this seems to me like a paranoid fantasy.

The people who make those particular decisions (such as the people who approve new road signs, with no Irish on them). And how is it paranoid? I specifically said it is due to indifference more so than anything else.

simu

Originally posted by magpie
That's funny, I thought that the resurrection of Irish was to try and do exactly that... to deny several hundred years of Ireland's cultural development, to play down anything that was viewed as suspect of 'british influence' and glorify a mythological time before 'the brits' when Ireland was a wonderful, happy democracy ruled by wise warrior kings...

Think of Ireland post 1922 in terms of Pol Pot's 'Year Zero' and you're on the right track. Why else do you think such large numbers of members of the protestant community felt compelled to up roots and move to England.

Was that the doing of Irish speakers? No. It was the idea of a government of mostly English speakers and as for their stated policy of restoring Irish to Ireland, it's clear that they never really took that seriously. No one is trying to deny that England has had a lot of influence in this country. Do you think people send their kids to Gaelscoileanna and that people speak Irish just to annoy the English? Do you really think anyone with half a brain believes that Ireland was paradise before the english arrived? No one does - ppl are interested in Irish because it's part of their culture and they enjoy it and many other people would like to get involved with the language and i don't see why they shouldn't be given oppourtunities to do so. It's perfectly possible to be an irish speaker with no feeling of ill will towards England, hard as you find that to believe.

simu

Also, you say Irish is a part of our culture. I'm Irish and it has nothing to do with my culture. I'm from Dublin. I don't speak Irish. Why is it that the Irish-speaking movement feels it has the right to speak about my culture?

No one is forcing you to take an interest in irish. If you really don't care about it, why bother posting on a thread like this which started off being about people who *are* interested in Irish and want to see more of it in their lives.

Ailill

Originally posted by mudflapgirl


It wouldn't take much from the government to encourage Irish learning. Giving more funding to Gaelige concerns, changing a few roadsigns in the eastern parts of the country, encouraging companies to print brochures and leaflets/instructions As Gaelige aswell.

Why does everybody look to the Government to do this??? Jesus, they've done enough to kill offf the languge in the last 70 years. The last thing we need is more govt interference.

They shoud stop making it compulsory in Secondary school for a start. All this does is turn out a majority who are completely hostile to the language, like Magpie.

stormkeeper

Originally posted by magpie


Let's not exaggerate. If you had said 'hundreds' i would have let you away with it. And chuckies saying 'Slan' and 'Dhia Duit' to each other does not count as a langauge being in use.

Well, it's still a start in my opinion, it shows people are willing to learn.

Unfortunately poor old english did not have the advantage of being preserved in metaphorical amber by only being spoken by the inhabitants of the most remote islands for several hundred years, so it could be restored Dr Moreau-like by foppish intellectual dandies with a taste for mythology, the supernatural, and each other. Rather it evolved from languages being spoken by Germanic tribesmen like the Angles who gave the language and country its name; it also, like most european languages, shares a common root with Latin. Had the inhabitants of Inis Mor succesfully colonised England and imposed their language I suspect with would have been quite difficult to recreate English from scratch.... but history had other ideas.

What matters now is that Irish is alive, and still spoken by people. It's quite sad that you consider Irish a dead language, just because not many speak it. A significant portion of the world doesn't speak English, and I don't notice you complain about that? What exactly is your problem? Can you not accept that people want to speak Irish in Ireland (which is supposed to be the national language here) and let them? If people in Scotland, Wales and Cornwall (?) do it, why shouldn't we be allowed to use our national language?

stormkeeper

Originally posted by magpie
My main point is that the revival of Irish is symptomatic of a cultural nationalism who's day has passed. The very fact that there are threads like this with people calling for it be used more serves to clearly illustrate that it is not a living language, otherwise it would be able to propagate itself. I have to admit I got sidetracked down some historical detours as a result of some posts by people with tricolours and poetry by Patrick Pearse as their sigs...

Hmm... I don't quite get your reasoning, actually... People still learn Latin, and that's almost as dead as Irish, if Irish is to be considered dead.... As well as that, I'm mentioning this again, but why shouldn't be allowed to use our own language? This is Ireland after all, and as there seems to be many people willing to learn Irish, the language could effectively see a comeback... Something I would love to see.

stormkeeper

Also, you say Irish is a part of our culture. I'm Irish and it has nothing to do with my culture.
If you are Irish, then it has a lot to do with your culture.

Dublin is more of a European city than an Irish one, it seems. Even so, I'm sure there's lots of people who live in Dublin City and County willing to learn Irish. You can't speak for your entire town/village/county/city.

I'm from Dublin. I don't speak Irish. Why is it that the Irish-speaking movement feels it has the right to speak about my culture?
Maybe because they know a little more about its history. Plus, I'm not speaking for all the Irish-speaking movements. Some people do attempt to make the language a political issue, I don't.

Since when has any language been a political issue? It seems somewhat silly to me....

GuanYin

Originally posted by magpie
Let's not exaggerate. If you had said 'hundreds' i would have let you away with it. And chuckies saying 'Slan' and 'Dhia Duit' to each other does not count as a langauge being in use.

Get your own facts straight.

A very over zealous census put the figure at 5% of the population fluent in Irish a few years back.

A PhD thesis from Trinity corrected this down to a more accurate 3.4% which puts the figure at about 100,000 people.

stormkeeper

100,000 huh? That's not too shabby...

magpie

That's not too shabby...

I'll resist the obvious gag.

For those of you who still don't understand my point, it's this.

Irish has not been our national language for hundreds of years, English has. The only people left speaking Irish until about 1900 were a handful in gaeltacht areas. Speaking and learning Irish are, have been and will be overtly political acts. Its revival started as part of the cultural nationalist movement, it is now used as a banner of "Irishness" as a seperatist ideal, and it is the language of choice of Messrs Adams and McGuinness.

Whether you like it or not you cannot seperate Irish 'culture' as embodied in the Irish language from Republican politics. Viz Kila, they sing in Irish, they play bodhrans, they wear wooly jumpers. And their brother is a Sinn Fein TD.

As an Irishman I take more pride in the work of Irish artists working through English than I do in learning a language that I have never spoken, and will never have any need to speak.

In short **** Kila, **** Peig, **** Fear Lasta Lampai. Give me Joyce, Shaw, Wilde.

stormkeeper

If I understand the above post correctly... Under that logic, people should be discouraged from learning/speaking German, just because Hitler spoke it (granted, he spoke Austrian-German, but still), still German is spoken a lot. So... Just because Irish is associated with those particular people, it shouldn't matter, because people still want to learn it. There's nothing political involved in wanting to learn one's own language, just because certain groups are attatched to it. That's just unfair to the Irish langauge, and the people who can speak it. You're painting those who speak it with the same brush you paint with the groups you mentioned.

On a side-note, I'm English, so I'm somewhat like an outsider on one level, even though I've lived here 17 years...

Suaimhneach

Yeah, there is more to the Irish language than Kila, Peig, and Fear Lasta Lampai.

I don't have a problem with the english language, and I don't hate the English, AND whats more, I dont equate the language to any sort of political agenda. You do[well, the latter]. Maybe that is the problem.

magpie

The Irish language was revived as part of a political agenda in the late 19th/early 20th Century, otherwise it would not exist now. Ergo, speaking Irish is a political act. And a sectarian one to boot.

Johnmb

Originally posted by magpie
The Irish language was revived as part of a political agenda in the late 19th/early 20th Century, otherwise it would not exist now. Ergo, speaking Irish is a political act. And a sectarian one to boot.

You really need to learn some history before you go around saying things like this. Irish was never dead to begin with, so it didn't have to be "revived". There were groups outside the traditional Irish speaking areas who wanted to reintroduce the language and other customs back into their own areas. For the most part, those groups were not founded for political reasons. Political activists did join up, and did use the cultural goals to further the political ones, but they hijacked the groups, they didn't found them. Speaking Irish is no more political than speaking English is. As for your bull**** about Republicans speaking Irish, so what? The BNP speak English, does that mean that only Nazis are allowed to speak that language?