Airport "Metro" is Dead - it's Now a Luas Line

P11 Comms

It is a vast improvement on previous Metro plans for the airport - because it's not a "Metro" - it's a LUAS line with a different logo on it:

www.platform11.org/metro_a.html

makes more sense and will join up the two LUAS lines and will be integrated much more seemlessly into the DART.

thejollyrodger

Is metro not better since its got that extra capacity? i.e. LUAS will have to be upgraded in the future to deal with the increase in passenger numbers

P11 Comms

People call call Platform11 cynical, but this latest Airport "Metro" seems like a face saving exercise for Brennan and the Government with their Simpson's Monorail-style Metro fetish.

Optimising the DART and building Specer Dock and the Interconnector will create massive capacity.

The LUAS is not as low capacity as some people think it is. It is a "local" connecting service and DART should be the prime people mover. This is how it works in places such as Vienna and it can work here as well. The thing is that we have the spend the money and build all this stuff and not kid ourselves that a PPP wearing a santa outfit will provide these projects.

In a nutshell:

DART for the major movements and serving outer suburbs
LUAS for the local connections
Integration with Buses, Cycling, Taxi's, Predestrians and Park and Rides to tie it all in

and

The mythology of PPPs delivering these schemes for the rubbish bin

silverside

The dto plan 'platform for change' envisages the airport metro line as part of an integrated metro solution. I.e. it would share the same tunnel as the orbital route to somewhere in the north phibsboro area, then go via glasnevin and ballymun to swords and the airport.

This to me seems a much better solution than what you propose. The advantage is that it gives access from the airport and much of north dublin to west and southwest dublin directly, without going on a roundabout route via a congested northern main rail line and the city centre.

I don't think luas is a better idea. The expense and disruption of buying land and laying an overground luas line has been shown to be significant, and the capacity is not much more than that of a dedicated bus lane or two. Better to bite the bullet, tunnel a metro which will take the pressure off the dart line, link in with the rest of the system when it is built, and almost pay for itself (Remember Mitsumi offered to build it for nothing if they got the revenue from fares?).

Sarsfield

Excuse my ignorance, but what is "It"?

A P11 proposal, an RPA one, a Government one? A pretty line on a map of Dublin?

thejollyrodger

I think the metro is a better solution than LUAS. This peice of infastructure will last for the next century and the €2bn €3bn or even €4bn is nothing when you take this 100 years into account. I dont think P11 are thinking long term...

BrianD

The extension of the LUAS to the airport makes a lot of sense, especially as it is only 10KM from the city centre. Plenty of international airports are served solely by tram and bus.

I suppose one of the advantages of a 'heavy rail' spur of an existing line means that non-Dublin rail users would only have to make one change from an inter-city trail to a DART taking them to the airport (one assumes that the wouldn't be so stupid to name the metro anything other than DART!!)

One fact has been lacking in the whole airport link debate. Exactly how many passengers would be expected to use this link if it were available? It would be great to see some stats on existing tranportation use to/from the airport.

embraer170

Plenty of international airports are served solely by tram and bus.

Name some western airports handling 20 mppa (million passengers per annum) served by tram. I really can't think of any!

Winters

In fact with an airport heavy rail link AND the interconnector (Phoenix Park tunnel for interim results) Cork, Tralee. Limerick and Galway trains etc could depart from Dublin Airport and stop in the city at Spencer Dock, Pearse, St. Stephen’s Green and Heuston and then continue on to their destinations.

Schipol in the Nederlands and Berlin Schonefelt in Germany have this facility and it is seriously possible in Ireland.

Mark B OBO "Winters"

silverside

(removed double post)

silverside

surface LUAS has little apparent advantage over the current aircoach service. It is also very expensive to build.

People would still only have one change to make to get onto a metro. with the metro however this could be at the point where the orbital line crosses the country routes (i.e. Clonsilla junction, Cherry Orchard, or Shanganagh) without having to come into the city centre at all. As you will see this also gives flexibility to all those people who want to go between North Dublin and various other areas served by the metro. as well.

It's important to remember that we are not just talking about a rail line to the airport here. We are talking about an integrated transport network that has the capacity and flexibility to serve the people of North Dublin and the rest of the Dublin area.

I think Seamus Brennan was convinced by this as well which is why he seems keen on the Metro idea.

BrianD, when you talk about the 'extension of LUAS to the airport' what do you mean? As I understand the current plan entails the existing dundrum LUAS line being converted to metro , and a new tunnel being dug between Charlemont street and Phibsboro and onwards to the airport.

silverside

and I don't think anyone has addressed the potential problem of congestion on the DART line between clontarf and howth junction.

Even with signalling upgrades, a spur to the airport would mean Belfast,Airport/Swords,Drogheda, Malahide,Howth all being served along one pair of tracks. The existing trains already have difficulty competing for slots.

Or is there a plan to double this track as well? That might be difficult considering where it runs (through residential areas).

Victor

Originally posted by P11 Comms
The Airport "Metro" is Dead

Says who?

BTW do you own shares in the Port Tunnel Consortium, that you are insisting that IÉ buy their clapped out tunnelling machine when they are finished with it?

Winters

As far as congestion on the Northern line is concerned i am under the impression that it is caused by congestion in Connolly and the loop line rather than the actual Clontarf to Howth Junction stretch itself.

Needless to say that Spercer Dock and proper platform management would solve those issues.

BrianD

St. Louis airport in Missouri has a tram link.

embraer170

There’s no greater public transport benchmark than the United States.

Whatever is built to Dublin airport (be it Metro/DART extention, preferably both) needs to be adaptable to provide an airport Express type service (at least 4x non-stop services per hour, in addition to local services), I doubt this would be practical with trams.

Andrew Duffy

I'd like to clarify something that took me a while to work out. The title of this thread refers to the fact that the current proposal for the Airport metro is very similar to the proposal for the Airport Luas line (D?) via Ballymun, and not similar at all to the original Platform for Change airport metro line, which went all the way to Swords. The only feature of the PFC line that remains is an underground city centre section, albeit in a very different form.

thejollyrodger

all these terms, metro D rings LUAS guage types etc etc are confusing... I havent a clue about 1/2 of it

As far as I can see it, METRO has a higher capacity and will serve this country well for years. If its only the price tag people are complaining about then the METRO should be built immediately. (like the one in spain?)

LUAS is ok for light traffic, but it doesnt offer much upgradabilty.

Kaner

Seems to me that the Metro makes sense to Dublin Airport. The reason I say this is that if the Airport metro runs through Phibsborough, Glasnevin, Ballymun, Dublin Airport, Park-and Ride at the M50, and Swords, then it will be well used. These are all pretty heavily populated areas. Of course there is the cost issue, but if Brennan can get it built for the same cost as the Madrid metro (50 million per km I believe) then it would be a good investment.

One of the problems I see with the DART spur to the airport is how often could the trains run and still be economic? The Metro would probably run much more frequently, and will supposedly link up with the heavy rail network in the city centre.

The DART spur will cost 400 million according to something I read recently, and its benefit will be confined mainly to the airport, as it will run along existing lines for most of its journey. The Metro will benefit a lot of people in the area of its footprint - in fact it will benefit them as much as the DART benefits people along the coast.

In my humble opinion radial Metro lines are needed more than an orbital line. I think buses could be used for the orbital public transport system and metro/dart/luas used for the radial routes into the city.

Andrew Duffy

The current, and final, airport metro proposal will not serve Swords. It will serve Ballymun and DCU, along with Phibsborough and O'Connell St which have heavy rail and Luas lines respectively. The Nothern part, from Phibsborough, is the same as an earlier Luas proposal (yes, there was a plan to have both Metro and Luas to the airport on seperate lines). The Southern part is yet another new design for an underground tunnel, this one cobbled together from two plans in order to serve both Connolly and Pearse St. stations. The trains will not be able to continue on the Luas line from Stephen's Green unless they are actually trams, as the Green and Harcourt St. are in the way.
The original design for the Luas line was to continue South from Phibsborough, interchange with the Red line near Smithfield, cross the river and head South, interchange with another South city ring Luas line roughly following the Grand Canal and eventually serving Terenure, Rathfarnam and Dundrum.

Page 16 of this PDF makes the whole thing clear:

http://www.dto.ie/platform1.pdf

Note the conspicuous absence of the existing Phoenix Park Tunnel and Midland Line, which the Platform for Change appear not to have known about, despite their prominence on the city street map.

For reference, I'll scan and post the article from the Sunday Times and hope not to get sued.

Andrew Duffy

As promised:

Sunday Times, Feb 29 2004

http://www.crannog-software.com/ad/airport_metro_sunday_times_29_feb_2004.gif

BrianD

This is not the Irish Rail proposal?

maxheadroom

That is the most ridiculous looking "metro" line anyone could imagine.... Even Helsinki's single line looks good compared to that... If that's really all the "metro" is going to be, build an airport link as a spur off the DART and be done with it.

embraer170

What is so ridiculous about it?

Doesn't have to be beautiful as long as it gets people where they want to go.

Victor

Originally posted by embraer170
There’s no greater public transport benchmark than the United States.

You would be surprised, while yes it is a car dominated culture, cities realise they need to provide public tranport if the are to remain competitive and survive.

Originally posted by Andrew Duffy
Sunday Times, Feb 29 2004 http://www.crannog-software.com/ad/airport_metro_sunday_times_29_feb_2004.gif

Looks a bit wonky with them putting the metro station at the "far" (North) end of the existing platforms.

Full article http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-1019792,00.html

Brennan wants metro to link air, city and rail
Richard Oakley

A FINAL proposed route has been drawn for Dublin’s planned metro system. The light rail trains are expected to travel from Dublin airport, through O’Connell Street, the capital’s main thoroughfare, to Connolly station before finishing at St Stephen’s Green.

According to department sources, Seamus Brennan, the transport minister, has decided the metro trains should travel at ground level from the airport to Ballymun. The tracks will then be elevated through Ballymun, which is undergoing a huge regeneration, to Dublin City University (DCU) in Glasnevin. From there, the trains will go underground to the Mater hospital in Phibsboro.

The metro will then cut across to O’Connell Street to a stop near the Gresham hotel and from there to Connolly station on Amiens Street. It will go under the River Liffey, passing through Pearse Street Dart station, on its way to St Stephen’s Green.

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) had drawn up two options, but the minister has asked for elements of both to be incorporated. The first RPA route, estimated to cost €1.7 billion at current construction costs, ran from the Mater hospital directly to Connolly station before going on to St Stephen’s Green. It did not stop at O’Connell Street.

The second, a cheaper alternative costing €1.2 billion, ran from the Mater hospital to O’Connell Street and then on to St Stephen’s Green, stopping at D’Olier Street near TCD in the city centre. It did not link with Connolly station.

This proposal included a travelator, a moving walkway, designed to transfer people from a D’Olier Street stop to Tara Street Dart station. If commuters wanted to go to Connolly Station they would have to get a Dart from Tara Street.

The minister wanted, however, to link the metro with Connolly station, a mainline rail and Dart stop and a larger facility than Tara Street. He was opposed to the idea of an underground travelator, due to safety concerns. Brennan also believed it was an impractical option for travellers with luggage going to and from the airport. Brennan is now expected to ask the RPA to finalise the cost of the proposed new route and intends to bring his plan to cabinet within weeks.

Ger Hannon, a spokesman for the RPA, said it was awaiting final instructions from the minister. He confirmed the route, as redrawn, was possible to complete. “The plan that linked to Connolly station did not go through O’Connell Street. It took a more direct route from the Mater hospital. Going through O’Connell Street from the Mater to Connolly station is something we could do though. It would involve extra cost. It is not ideal as it includes a significant change in direction, but it is achievable, especially as the stop is not at the bottom of O’Connell Street,” he said.

Brennan is understood to be confident that his plan will be approved by cabinet colleagues. The Department of Finance is understood to believe that building a metro system for Dublin would not prove value for money. A report carried out by Goodbody Economic Consultants on behalf of the finance department said the project was too expensive.

The minister, however, is to propose that the system be built as part of a public-private partnership (PPP). There is a belief that the state could hire a company to design and build the metro and not begin paying for it until the day it opens, possibly as early as 2009. Effectively the state would then lease the system from the company for a period of about 25 years.

The initial line to the airport will form the basis of an extended underground system. If the minister’s plan gets the go-ahead, Connolly station will increase in importance as a transport link. It will be a stop for the Luas, Dublin’s new tram system, and is close to Busarus, the city’s inter-city bus terminal.

Andrew Duffy

This is not the Irish Rail proposal?

Irish rail has never had anything to do with the Metro and little to do with Luas - the Metro was designed, or rather lines were drawn on a map, by a faceless group called "Platform for Change"; a group which did not notice the existing railway lines running between Heuston and Connolly stations and all over the North Docklands. This new "metro" is a modified version of an earlier proposal for a Luas line, and has nothing to do with Platform for Change at all.

Irish Rail's proposals are for the following, at a total cost of €3bn:

- Heavy rail service to the airport from either the Northern or Maynooth lines
- 10 new stations, including one at Spencer Dock
- An underground tunnel providing a second connection between the two terminii and effectively giving us an inner circle line
- Service from the Kildare line to Spencer Dock using the existing track
- Electrification of the Maynooth and Kildare lines, along with large service increases
- Service to Dunboyne along the existing alignment and Maynooth line

There might be more, but the articles are all on another thread here.

BrianD

Well for me, Irish Rail have come up with an alternative and far more realistic proposal than the 'metro' one. Dublin does not need nor can it afford a metro system. The metro idea is simply an excuse by the powers that be for inaction on any investment in our current rail system. Brennan can happily unveil all sorts of wacky metro plans safe in the knowledge that he will never have to build them.

IR have demonstrated that with a modest investment we can have 3 or more Dart lines up and running and completey integrated. Furthermore, as these existing lines strtch out into the Dublin hinterland additional sections can be "DART-ified" as required. It is time to bin the metro plans and adopt the IR plans and get on with it.

Andrew Duffy

My thoughts exactly.

Winters

I hope that the cheaper option of 1.2 Billion is implemented rather than the route "snaking" under Connolly. If the recently publicised Irish Rail plan was fully implemented then there would be no need for the Metro line to connect with either Tara or Connolly as it would be integrated with DART Line 1 Phibsborough and again with the DART line 2 at St. Stephen's Green.

In other cities where metro and heavy rail airport connections exist the metro is mainly used by short stay visitors, locals and people working in the Airport. the heavy rail link would, as is the norm, be used by longer stay visitors with larger luggage and some wishing to connect with other mainline services. Mr. Brennans comment that people would be carrying heavy luggage on the metro would not happen if the IR plan is put in motion.

I would also have grave concerns about elevating the metro in Ballymun. Sounds like something that would become an eye sore in an area that is being "cleaned up". One could see the similarities between a series of stilts in Ballymun blocking out the newly designed civic spaces and buildings and the Loop line bridge's effect on the Custom House.

Mark Bishop

On Behalf of "Winters"

Victor

Originally posted by Winters
I would also have grave concerns about elevating the metro in Ballymun.

Do you have any information on this?

Winters

Yes, as posted above by you, re: the Sunday Times, Feb 29 2004

Do you mean detailed information?

Brennan wants metro to link air, city and rail
Richard Oakley

-According to department sources, Seamus Brennan, the transport minister, has decided the metro trains should travel at ground level from the airport to Ballymun. The tracks will then be elevated through Ballymun, -

Victor

Ooopps. Winters banned for being smart

thejollyrodger

(*******************************)

This metro plan is looking like a good idea. The LUAS is too small. If your down underground, you wont care what the stations look like as long as they are functional and clean. But the design of the overground section at "Ballymun" is going to be important. No one wants to look at a ugly bridge construction.

I know some spanish friends and they were real cut up about the way the underground was built in Madrid. They wanted to see something like the "Jubalee line" in London. Thats nice and all but price and functionality comes first. Such things shouldnt be allowed to affect decisions in Ireland.

BrianD

The Luas is too small?????? That may be your opinion but can you please explain how the Luas differs to other tram systems around the world? I don't see any difference between tram sizes betwen Dublin, Dusseldorf and Melbourne!!