Bertie and Gerry, is it all over now? (sniff!)

mike65

So Bertie admits to beliving that Gerry was a provo all the time...Gerry says he's stunned. "How could Bertie..." etc?

So what do we think...is Gerry a provo? Has Bertie decided its no more Mr Nice Guy?
And if so, why now?

Mike.

Ajnag

Loves a beautiful thing isnt it.

lol, Tis a funny one, specallily seening as theyll be in each others pant once sinn fein is socially acceptable in a few years, and when ff need the votes.

If harneys a brides maid, Ill think Ill pass on the wedding tho.

gandalf

LOL is Gerry a provo !!! Yes of course he is, he wouldn't be the President of Sinn Fein if he didn't have involvement in its paramilitary wing.

As for FF sucking up to them in the future sure thats obvious, this current crowd would sell their souls to Satan (thats assuming they have them) if it meant they could stay in power.

Gandalf.

ReefBreak

It is well known and well documented that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were part of an IRA delegation that met with Downing Street in 1972, just before the most violent period of the troubles. To be honest I can't understand why Adams continues to be a liar about his IRA history. It could be that he's been claiming it for so long now, he'd look foolish if he changed his story. Or perhaps he was an active "pseudo" member but never took an IRA oath, so that he could say he had never joined.

Nuttzz

for Adams to say he wasnt is an insult to peoples intelligence,

thesecret7

Gerry Adams has blood on his hands and of course he was a member of the Provos.

Mighty_Mouse

Theres no point in Gerry Adams saying he wasnt a member of the IRA if he was. Martin McGuinness and loads others (Ferris, Kelly etc ) have all said they were members of the IRA and it hasnt harmed them politically.

So why would Gerry Adams maintain he wasnt a member? He's obviously a republican and republicans have ties with the IRA, but could it be possible that G. Adams was never a member of the IRA. Maby he hsa been groomed for a political struggle for years and therefore had no motivation to join.

I know this much though. Bye bye peace process, democratic goverment etc if Irish English governments continue in the manner they have in recent times.

Villain

Can anyone back up the claims of Gerry Adams being a MEMBER of the IRA, or are you all going to assume Bertie is telling the truth.

I believe Gerry Adams was never a MEMBER of the IRA, he may have had links and been closely tied to the organisation, but I don't think he was ever a member.

Bertie is stirring ****, and you wanna know why, coz theres elections comming up and Gerry Adams is far a superior Politic Leader than Bertie will ever be.

Sinn Fein are going to make a lot of gains in the up coming elections and Berties unfounded lies won't stop them.

I was delighted that Bertie came out and said these things, it showed he's afraid of the support SF are gathering. Bertie is a fool do if he thinks some slide remark will turn the tide against Gerry Adams. I would like to see Bertie debate this issue with Adams so we could all see him getting his ass kicked.

My big worry here do is the UUP and DUP will jump on these remarks and Paisley will look to make it another reason why his party shouldn't go into government with SF.

Bertie has turned out to be a bigger a fool than I thought, and thats hard.

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
Gerry Adams is far a superior Politic Leader than Bertie will ever be.

Dunno that I'd agree with that, but I reckon he's the most charismatic and well-spoken politician in Ireland today....and thats a lot of what Bertie is afraid of.

jc

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
It is well known and well documented that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were part of an IRA delegation that met with Downing Street in 1972, just before the most violent period of the troubles. To be honest I can't understand why Adams continues to be a liar about his IRA history. It could be that he's been claiming it for so long now, he'd look foolish if he changed his story. Or perhaps he was an active "pseudo" member but never took an IRA oath, so that he could say he had never joined.

Representing the IRA and been apart of the IRA are two different things.

It’s like publicly claming some one had taken a bribe, or is/was some other way corrupt, just because it is commonly believed so.

Did you name Martin Mc Guinness to try to add water to your story? Just because one was - has said so, and can be proven so - a member of the IRA, does not mean the other was.

Sparks

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Theres no point in Gerry Adams saying he wasnt a member of the IRA if he was.

Yes there is. Adams, as the leader of Sinn Fein, acknowledging membership of the IRA would destroy Sinn Fein's "Oh, we're not the provos, really" stance completely.

sovtek

See Bertie's not so dumb. He's gettin everyone's panties in a wad over this instead of asking him some serious questions.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Villain

Originally posted by daveirl
I though McGuinness acknowledging membership had already done that but apparently people are willing to get past that point! *The mind boggles*

McGuinness is not the leader, thats like Lawlor admitting taking money means Bertie did!! *The Mind Boggles*

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
He's obviously a republican and republicans have ties with the IRA,

That's some fairly faulty logic you've got there buddy.

monument

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
So why would Gerry Adams maintain he wasnt a member? He's obviously a republican and republicans have ties with the IRA,

I missed that until Raskolnikov posted some of it.

On second thought I don’t think I’ll even reply, but just shake my head at the good job the Irish media have done conveying their anti-republican views.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I know this much though. Bye bye peace process, democratic goverment etc if Irish English governments continue in the manner they have in recent times.

Bye, bye, to the peace process and the democratic government etc because of the current larges party of unionises - they do not want a democratic government including ANY republicans.

Cork

Originally posted by thesecret7
Gerry Adams has blood on his hands and of course he was a member of the Provos.

Why does he not admit this?

He said he was flabbergasted at the suggestion.


Was this the first time he heard it??

I really have no time for SF/IRA - SF could not even find it in it's heart to condemn the bomb at Warrington.

So Gerry maintains he was never involved in the IRA.

How does he feel about the Loch Ness Monster?

monument

Originally posted by Cork
How does he feel about the Loch Ness Monster?

How do YOU feel about the Lock Ness Monster?

Do you have proof of either?

Cork

I would suggest reading Ed Moroneys most recent book.

How could Adams be fabbergasted at the notion of involvement in the IRA?

Was this week - the first- it was put to him?

Atreides

Originally posted by Cork
I would suggest reading Ed Moroneys most recent book.

How could Adams be fabbergasted at the notion of involvement in the IRA?

Was this week - the first- it was put to him?

More to the point he was shocked by the person he believed it, surely intelligents would have porved or disproved this years ago. Surely if he was a member there is/was a british oprative someone that would have evidence to prove it.

monument

Originally posted by Cork
I would suggest reading Ed Moroneys most recent book.

Could you give us an example of the evidence of Adams been in the IRA contained in this book?

everythinglive

of course gerry adams was a member of the IRA. but he has my vote. Go Sinn Féin!

Cork

The IRA does not have membership lists so hard proof is hard to find.

Mr Ahern made a clear reference to the 1972 ceasefire negotiations between the IRA and then Northern Secretary Willie Whitelaw in London. Senior IRA negotiators insisted Mr Adams be released from internment to take part in the talks.

"He hardly became one of the chief negotiators at the time of Lenadoon, if he hadn't some fairly close association," said Mr Ahern

Moriarty

Originally posted by everythinglive
of course gerry adams was a member of the IRA. but he has my vote. Go Sinn Féin!

The vote you don't yet have because you aren't 18? Have you ever given some thought to the reasons why Sinn Fein is recieving most of its support from late teens and early to mid twenties?

gurramok

The vote you don't yet have because you aren't 18?

You are basing your opinion on assumptions. How do you know from the post that the poster is under 18 ? (psychic powers ? )

Have you ever given some thought to the reasons why Sinn Fein is recieving most of its support from late teens and early to mid twenties?

What are the reasons, would love to hear.

mike65

Those under about 25 have little memory of the provos
freedom loving activities - no warning bombs, massive town centre bombing campiagns, countless violent bank robberies north and esp South, some of which claimed lives (not just Adare), the kidnappings, the beatings with
baseball bats featuring guest apperances by 6 inch long nails. You know that sort of stuff which oldesters like me still have stored away in the memory banks.

I think many in the 15-25 age cohert kind of imagine that
sort of thing did'nt really happen much. That it was media exaggeration.

Mike.

flogen

to add to that mike, i would also say that, in my experience, the whole IRA thing is romaticised, when i was younger friends of mine kept spouting on about up the RA and all that, listening to the wolfe tones, and shouting chucaigh ar la (they could spell it as well as i did). although i was too young to realise how stupid it was to act like that, i never really got into it anyway.

Its been my firm belief that these types of people will soon have a big effect on the electorate. the next election (mainly general election) will, IMO see another boost for SF, and i think they will inadvertantly help reverse apathy as people who have no interest in politics go and vote SF because of 'The stuggles'. And lets not forget the possible effects CSP will have on young voters too, the coming years will be a good indication as to its failure to make young people politics-aware

Flogen

Moriarty

Originally posted by gurramok
You are basing your opinion on assumptions. How do you know from the post that the poster is under 18 ? (psychic powers ? )

No I'm not. Read.

Originally posted by gurramok
What are the reasons, would love to hear.

What mike65 and flogen said, no point repeating it. They hit the proverbial nail on the head.

swiss

I'm not entirely certain why Gerry Adams is so 'flabbergasted' that Bertie Ahern should assume that he is/was a member of the IRA. Personally I believe he was, based on Sinn Féins ties with that terrorist organisation. However, Bertie simply took a fairly straightforward piece of logic - that Sinn Féin is inextricably linked with the IRA, and that Gerry Adams is the leader of Sinn Féin, and that this implies that there might be a link between the two - and inferred that it was probable that Gerry Adams was a member of the IRA.

Regardless of how right/wrong Bertie might be, I find it far from 'flabbergasting' that Bertie would think it feasible that Gerry Adams was in the IRA. I believe Gerry Adams wanted to minimise the fallout to Sinn Féin from the revelations about IRA criminal activity in the north by trying to distance his party from them. Hence the use of such strong language in his denial.

I think flogen is right on the money with his remarks. Sinn Féin appears to have the romantic aura of a party dedicated to fighting for the underprivileged and marginalised in society, whilst ignoring that they are tied to an organisation that proactively exploits these groups through intimidation, extortion, money laundering and other activities that are the preserve of organised criminals.

The old adage "Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" springs to mind. Enda Kenny this week mentioned that it was time to stop pandering to the republican movement, especially in the light of continued criminal activity on the part of the IRA. I believe that it is time to engage Sinn Féin on these matters, and ask them the questions that they do not want to hear regarding their IRA masters.

gurramok

Originally posted by Moriarty
No I'm not. Read.

I wouldnt take the birthday date as the gospel truth, some people do jokingly lie whether intentional or not about their age.

What mike65 and flogen said, no point repeating it. They hit the proverbial nail on the head.

How do you/mike define an oldster...as someone over 25 ?

Flogen has not indicated why that SF might pick up votes other than the apathy of youth thing\romantic era.
You will be surprised to learn that the 'The struggles' as Flogen point out have little influence on how votes are won over in the likes of dublin, it would be true for a border county for example.

The proverbial nail on the head is seriously way off the mark, are you suggesting that past atrocities are glorified by this misguided youth(15-25 in the example) ?

Sinn Féin appears to have the romantic aura of a party dedicated to fighting for the underprivileged and marginalised in society

Problem is no-one else does, at least that's how its felt where i live.

Moriarty

Originally posted by gurramok
How do you/mike define an oldster...as someone over 25 ?

I never defined anyone as an 'oldster', I gave a specific age range.

Originally posted by gurramok
Flogen has not indicated why that SF might pick up votes other than the apathy of youth thing\romantic era.
You will be surprised to learn that the 'The struggles' as Flogen point out have little influence on how votes are won over in the likes of dublin, it would be true for a border county for example.

How old are you? I'm in my early twenties and I know that the above plays a major part in the support Sinn Fein recieves in people I know that are around my age. There's no need to believe me if you don't want to, but its the truth. The same situation has been recognised by many people.

Originally posted by gurramok
The proverbial nail on the head is seriously way off the mark, are you suggesting that past atrocities are glorified by this misguided youth(15-25 in the example) ?

Not glorified as much as simply forgotten or explained away under the excuse that 'the other side did much worse'. Again, I have much personal experience of this happening in people around my age.

Originally posted by gurramok
Problem is no-one else does, at least that's how its felt where i live.

So as long as they represent the underprivalged they're allowed to assault, extort, harass and murder people?

monument

Originally posted by Cork
The IRA does not have membership lists so hard proof is hard to find.

`

By this logic… smart people in power don’t keep a paper trail of any bribes they may have been given, but since it is commonly thought that most in power are corrupt, all must be guilty of taken bribes.


“That it was media exaggeration”

Although the media are dam right to point out wrongs by the IRA

I think it’s quite different, more like media bias. The main media outlets which are have any kind of fairness are the BBC, the Guardian, and maybe the Sunday Tribune, some of the others are some what blind to any thing done wrong by loyalists.

gurramok

Originally posted by Moriarty
How old are you? I'm in my early twenties and I know that the above plays a major part in the support Sinn Fein recieves in people I know that are around my age. There's no need to believe me if you don't want to, but its the truth. The same situation has been recognised by many people.

I'm in my late 20's, its voters of all ages rather than an age group (15-25) that are voting for SF than other parties. As is well known, young people are usually the laziest kind to get out and vote, the recent rise of SF cannot be attributed soley to the above age bracket.

Not glorified as much as simply forgotten or explained away under the excuse that 'the other side did much worse'. Again, I have much personal experience of this happening in people around my age.

I wouldnt quote a sole age bracket, but its all kinds of ages that switched parties.
They certainly didnt vote for SF on their northern policies, they voted for what affected them in their day to day lives here in ROI, not in another country.

So as long as they represent the underprivalged they're allowed to assault, extort, harass and murder people?

By no means i am defending the likes of SF, but from a personal perspective of where i live, the 'assault, extort, harass and murder people' is not at the hands of 'republicans', its at the hands of drugs gangs and low-lifes which has happened in my area, dublin north-west(shall i name the suburb where i live ? ).

ReefBreak

Originally posted by everythinglive
of course gerry adams was a member of the IRA. but he has my vote. Go Sinn Féin!

I would absolutely love to know why you would give your vote (if you had a vote) to Sinn Féin. Go on, give us 5 reasons why. Even if one was to ignore the fact that they have links with an Irish version of Al Qaeda, I still can't think of one single reason to give them my vote.

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I would absolutely love to know why you would give your vote (if you had a vote) to Sinn Féin. Go on, give us 5 reasons why. Even if one was to ignore the fact that they have links with an Irish version of Al Qaeda, I still can't think of one single reason to give them my vote.

Comparing the IRA to Al Qaeda is just stupid; it’s like comparing the US army with their kill-kill attitude to Ireland’s Defence Forces with their restrained attitude (at least on paper).

Al Qaeda want to kill all Americans or westerners, while the IRA haven’t such crazy goals, in fact they don’t even want to kill all Loyalist.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I would absolutely love to know why you would give your vote (if you had a vote) to Sinn Féin. Go on, give us 5 reasons why. Even if one was to ignore the fact that they have links with an Irish version of Al Qaeda, I still can't think of one single reason to give them my vote.

What Party do you support??, and give us 5 reasons why while your at it

I was away so hadn't posted for a while but I still can't believe a lot of you assume Gerry was a member of the IRA. Please supply Facts people to support this claim otherwise your talking lies and rubbish.

Now ReefBreak, I've Voted Sinn Fein in the past and will do again and I'ts because I happen to believe in their policies and their commitment to Peace up north.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
Comparing the IRA to Al Qaeda is just stupid; it’s like comparing the US army with their kill-kill attitude to Ireland’s Defence Forces with their restrained attitude (at least on paper).

Al Qaeda want to kill all Americans or westerners, while the IRA haven’t such crazy goals, in fact they don’t even want to kill all Loyalist.

The only difference is scale. Al-Qaeda bombed the Sari club last year resulting in the deaths of over 90 civilians. They did this intentionally with the full knowledge that innocent civilians would die. Now take the last two sentences and apply it to the IRA's bombing of pubs in Birmingham in the 70s, or their bombing of Enniskillen in the 80s, or their bombing of a shopping centre in Warrington in the 90s. I'm not exaggerating when I wonder how a person who votes for Sinn Féin can even sleep at night with the shame, let alone give them their vote.

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
The only difference is scale.

You don’t know much about either of them if you think that.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
You don’t know much about either of them if you think that.

Considering that they both argue that terrorist actions that kill civilians are a viable form of creating change, please explain to me why you believe there is more of a difference than just scale, I'm dying to know.

monument

I have...

Originally posted by monument
Comparing the IRA to Al Qaeda is just stupid; it’s like comparing the US army with their kill-kill attitude to Ireland’s Defence Forces with their restrained attitude (at least on paper).

Al Qaeda want to kill all Americans or westerners, while the IRA haven’t such crazy goals, in fact they don’t even want to kill all Loyalist.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
What Party do you support??, and give us 5 reasons why while your at it

I was away so hadn't posted for a while but I still can't believe a lot of you assume Gerry was a member of the IRA. Please supply Facts people to support this claim otherwise your talking lies and rubbish.

Now ReefBreak, I've Voted Sinn Fein in the past and will do again and I'ts because I happen to believe in their policies and their commitment to Peace up north.

In typical Sinn Féin fashion, you refuse to answer a simple question by dodging the answer or asking another question. Anyway, I'll give you 5 reasons why I voted PD in the last election. And I expect you to return with 5 reasons to vote SF.
- Low-taxation. So successful that it was adopted by FF and FG.
- Pro-competition in all sectors. It's about 100 times easier to hail a cab now.
- Efficient spending of public money.
- No record of corruption among their members. How many members of Sinn Féin have murdered innocent civilians. How many SF TDs have terrorist offences?
- The only party to take on Sinn Féin and their hypocritical snake-tongued double-speak with regards to violence, human rights, etc. I could go on all day with this one. In fact, I would estimate that about 75% of what comes out of a SF TD's mouth is blatant hypocrisy.

So Irish1, please list some of Sinn Féin's policies, including economic policies. Again, I'd love to know why anyone would vote for Sinn Féin.

As for the idea that Gerry Adams was not a member of Sinn Féin? We're not stupid. There are simply too many people (politicians, journalists, civil servants) involved in the peace process over the last 30 years that have claimed he was a senior figure in the IRA for it not to be true. Remember that he was let out of jail in 1972 just so he could join an IRA delegation in Downing Street.

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
In typical Sinn Féin fashion, you refuse to answer a simple question by dodging the answer or asking another question…hypocrisy.

Sorry, but did you not just do the same thing?

Originally posted by ReefBreak
As for the idea that Gerry Adams was not a member of Sinn Féin? We're not stupid. There are simply too many people (politicians, journalists, civil servants) involved in the peace process over the last 30 years that have claimed he was a senior figure in the IRA for it not to be true.

Yea, and lets call all politicians and civil servants corrupt because it is widely thought so – btw that’s called hearsay.

Who are these people, do they have proof?

You’re using very twisted logic – because “simply too many people” have said so, it must be true!

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Remember that he was let out of jail in 1972 just so he could join an IRA delegation in Downing Street.

1. speaking on behalf of a group

2. been a member of a group

Please try to see the difference.

1. facts

2. speculation

Again, please try to see the difference.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
In typical Sinn Féin fashion, you refuse to answer a simple question by dodging the answer or asking another question.

The qustion wasn't directed at me to here you go:
1. I believe in their housing Policy, i.e. everyone should have access to affordable housing. "Increased and sustained funding of local authorities in the 26 counties to provide housing with a target of supplying suitable accommodation within two years for 70 per cent of applicants on the waiting lists"

Funded by "An increase in Capital Gains Tax on speculative owners of multiple dwellings, introduced on a phased basis over two years"

2. The support of Indigenous Enterprise, i.e. more concentration on on homegrown enterprise rather then inward investement.

3. Sinn Féin believe that neutrality must be enshrined in the Constitution I follow agree and support this.

4. Sinn Féin supports the role played CE schemes in providing badly needed services to local communities and in giving many people an opportunity to make the transition from welfare to work

5. Sinn Féin believes in an United Ireland, that the Island of Ireland is united as one.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
How many members of Sinn Féin have murdered innocent civilians.
In fact,

Please supply evidence of this or are you trolling??

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I would estimate that about 75% of what comes out of a SF TD's mouth is blatant hypocrisy

Compared to 90% of PD's, ya?

Originally posted by ReefBreak
As for the idea that Gerry Adams was not a member of Sinn Féin? We're not stupid. There are simply too many people (politicians, journalists, civil servants) involved in the peace process over the last 30 years that have claimed he was a senior figure in the IRA for it not to be true. Remember that he was let out of jail in 1972 just so he could join an IRA delegation in Downing Street.

Oh right so your a sheep and their all sheep so you must follow, I see!

He joined the IRA delegation that was sent to London to try and broker a Peace deal, that doesn't mean he was an active member of the IRA.

Mighty_Mouse

Wow! I know that some of ye anti-shinners would like to make out that all republicans are crazy redicals but some of ye are fuelled with such a hatred that,ye are the ones coming accross as irrational.

Comparing the IRA to the Al Queda is just crazy. Its a lunacy argument and doesnt even merit discussion..

As for the focus on Sinn Fein economic policies and "non-peace proceess" politics I would welcome all the critism that can possible be aimed at them. At least this way poor aul shinners might get a chance to talk about something other than the NI crisis, IRA and Good Friday agreement.

BUT..........if its Sinn Fein's abilty to govern which is being attacked here. You cannot deny the succes and progress made by Sinn Fein in areas such as eduction, healthcare etc etc whilst the government of NI was operating

Sinn Fein are a socialist party and therfore their economic and political ideals are mainly along those lines e.g national focus on business development, "spread the wealth" taxation and economic policies.

PS
sssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh dont say this too lound ...............but can anybody else sense the fear of God in opposition parties coming towards the local elections!!!!

And before we have to argue how Sinn Fein will never be a major party in the South, how people will never vote for them down here etc etc .........
would anyone care to drag up old debates from before the last general election saying that Sinn Fein would be aniliated in the election. That they would gain any seats etc etc

Im smiling at the lack of similar comments this time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

monument

Originally posted by irish1
Compared to 90% of PD's, ya?

Yea, one of the best I've heard was that they're still left wing party.

Sparks

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Comparing the IRA to the Al Queda is just crazy. Its a lunacy argument and doesnt even merit discussion..

Damn straight! Al Queda is a group of extremist islamic religious fanatics who blow people up to get their way on state policy matters. Whereas the IRA are catholic....

monument

Originally posted by Sparks
Damn straight! Al Queda is a group of extremist islamic religious fanatics who blow people up to get their way on state policy matters. Whereas the IRA are catholic....

:rolleyes:

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
:rolleyes:

Over 800 innocent civilians were murdered by the IRA over the course of the troubles.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Over 800 innocent civilians were murdered by the IRA over the course of the troubles.

No reply to my 5 reasons, or Have you seen the light now!!

Comparing Al Queda to the IRA shows only one thing: a lack of Knowledge.

Now I'm not talking about scum like the REAL IRA, I'm talking about the IRA that bought Britsih empire to its knees and led to the Republic of Ireland free state being negotiated

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
No reply to my 5 reasons, or Have you seen the light now!!

Comparing Al Queda to the IRA shows only one thing: a lack of Knowledge.

Now I'm not talking about scum like the REAL IRA, I'm talking about the IRA that bought Britsih empire to its knees and led to the Republic of Ireland free state being negotiated

...crikey. For that last comment Irish1, I genuinely feel sorry for you. Have I seen the light? Bloody hell, your 5 reasons for voting SF were pathetic. Was that really the best you could come up with?

- Affordable housing. Yes, very good. Although very idealistic and naive.
- Support of indiginous enterprise. There is already huge support for indiginous enterprise in Ireland. No thanks to Sinn Féin's policies, who's high taxes would decimate indiginous and inward investment.
- Neutrality? Sinn Féin supports neutrality? What a joke. This is the same Sinn Féin with a private terrorist army? The same Sinn Féin that murdered 9 people at La Mon after setting of a horrific fireball during a meeting of the Irish Collie Club? Want me to go on...?
- CE Schemes. You'll need to set up a lot of them after Sinn Féin's Marxist policies destroy our economy and send thousands back to the dole queue.
- United Ireland. Yeah great, whatever. And how are you going to convince the Unionists of this? Note that there has never been a Independant United Ireland before, so why now?

The quality of debate (not to mention the quality of writing) provided by Monument, Irish1 and Might_mouse should convince everyone else of the qualities of Sinn Féin.