Your views on downloading pirited copys

User45701

I want you views on this.

I would belive that it is ok for certan reasons.

1.You love a TV Show/Movie that is not avayble to buy in shops or online.
2.You once bought a game/music thing/DVD/VHS but broke it and aready paid for it.

I Love CnC it is the greatest game and an amazing story, years ago i bought Tiberian dawn and covert operations. I broke the covert ops CD and cant find a replacement.
Westwood/EA Games dont make Covert ops anymore and no shops or websites have it anymore, I found 1 copy, just 1 It is on amazon for 50 euro. I cant decide if i should buy that or just download it.

EDIT: The poll includes buying pirited copys from other people
EDIT: I need a MOD to edit my poll and put in another option. =

7.Its ok to buy/Download pirited things that wont be for sale for a long time (like a movie that just came out in the cinima and you dont want to wait for it to be on DVD)

8.Its ok to buy/Download pirited things that wont be for sale for a long time (like a movie that just came out in the cinima and you dont want to wait for it to be on DVD)
but only if you buy it when it does come out on DVD

tman

could've done with being a multi choice poll tbh.

i definitely don't agree with it always being acceptable.
in the case of downloading a backup for a broken copy, or downloading something that would be, otherwise, unatainable new. yeah, thats perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

Dustaz

Dont make excuses, its never 'ok' to pirate copyright material.

The fact that most of us do it/have done it does not make it legal or alright though.

I suppose if something is gone out of publication then there is a certain moral allowance but not in the eyes of the law.

Capt'n Midnight

[Troll] What about Abandonware ? [/Troll]

TheSonOfBattles

99% of what I download is fan subbed Anime. Most of it wouldn't be available outside of Japan, although sometimes it's available in butchered American format. DiscoStu corrected me on this, its is still illegal in the eyes of the law, but the producers or whatever are ok with you downloading it, as long as it's not licensed in your area. Since they're not licensed in Europe, i'm perfectly glad to accept the chance to watch such fine examples of art/tv as it should be.

byte

I would download stuff if my original copy was knackered or something I guess, or if is not available to buy.

But then, I don't have broadband so my downloading is pretty limited anyway.

User45701

There is 1 problem with all the people who said they DL stuff all the time.

What if the company that makes ur faverate game runs out of money because not enough people buy the game in the shops?
Then you want have any sequels or expansions to your faverate game.

TheSonOfBattles

Originally posted by User45701
There is 1 problem with all the people who said they DL stuff all the time.

What if the company that makes ur faverate game runs out of money because not enough people buy the game in the shops?
Then you want have any sequels or expansions to your faverate game.

All of the people I know who download movies/music/games only download stuff they're only kinda interested in or want to try before they buy. Movies, music and even more so games, that they actually like and play/use regularly they buy after they've downloaded it.

So even if a company went out of business, it's most likely to be a business they could care less about. I know everyone won't be this way, but a fair few people would be.

Pigman II

I don't agree with your 1, 7 and 8 and you're deluding yourself if you think it's ok to D/L illegal stuff just because you can't see/play it right now.

With regard to point 2 it's not a valid excuse either and you should probably just be more careful with your affairs/possessions. If for example one accidentally burnt their ticket to todays Ireland v Wales rugby match should they still expect to be let into Lansdowne without question just because they bought a ticket? Try telling that to a steward.

TacT

I like cake, better be double choccy

TheSonOfBattles

Why not go the whole hog and just get triple or quadruple chocolate. Or you even invent your own kinda cake, octuplet choclate cake

MrPinK

Originally posted by Pigman II
With regard to point 2 it's not a valid excuse either and you should probably just be more careful with your affairs/possessions. If for example one accidentally burnt their ticket to todays Ireland v Wales rugby match should they still expect to be let into Lansdowne without question just because they bought a ticket? Try telling that to a steward.

But if you had a perfect duplicate of your ticket and you accidently burnt one of them, you'd still just sit at home and not go to the match?

Pigman II

Originally posted by MrPinK
But if you had a perfect duplicate of your ticket and you accidently burnt one of them, you'd still just sit at home and not go to the match?

Then the debate would shift to the legitimacy of having that duplicate, not what you do with it.

Point I'm trying to make is that just because you pay for something and are too careless to look after it of it shouldn't mean you treat yourself to illegial duplicates and then feel suitably justified for doing so.

User45701

My way of looking at it is that if you buy the ticket then whoever sells those tockets have made there money so noone will lose out if you make a illigal copy.

I know nothing about sports or music concerts (tickets) but i thought that tickets have codes on them would it not be possible to take down that code in case of destruction of ticket?

BTW the cake can be any type of cake u want
For me at the mo it is coffie layer cake

dangerman

im right in the middle of a 10,000 word project on the very subject of illegal file sharing.

Downloading illegal software is never 'ok' ... its against the law.

what has happened however is that we've got used to sharing things through a nice build up: first of all it was just copying tapes of albums for your mates, or the odd time ur mate brought back a pirate video from somewhere or something...the internet has reduced the latency and improved the convenience so its far too tempting an offer - people get these files because it's interesting to do so. You can't stop that.

the other important thing is that it used to be hard-core criminal counterfitting operations that harmed the content industries, but now the end user is gaining the power to damage revenues through illicit means.

Having been studying this for a few months now, the outcome of it all seems inevitable. The content industries will lose, because they've misjudged entirely what the internet is. Tech like DRM & Trusted Computing can only go so far, but no end user is willfully going to sign up to big-brother-esque style tech in computers...and any government would have a serious difficult time passing such a law to force it.

BTW, is anyone aware that tomorrow a new EU Intellectual Property Directive is getting its first hearing...this would allow for music industry agents to raid homes right across europe much like the DMCA allows people in the states to do so. As part of my project, im going to talk to Mary Hanafin about it tomorrow i hope.

I'm not just being sensational, i've been giving this a lot of thought and within ten years i believe things are going to be very different in this whole area.

If anyone's actually interested, my project, which [i bloody well hope] gives a good overview of this entire topic will be up on the net within about two weeks.

Very interested in what people think on this whole subject.

TheSonOfBattles

I'd be interested in reading some of it if you put up the link in here when it's up.

As for how the music/movie industry can stop this from happening, they have part of the right idea, but they are executing it badly tbh. If they make a decent, legal file sharing program thats a good idea. The bad part is that they're trying to charge exactly the same amout for just the files (minus any physical storage or info material), and worse, they limit the amount of time you can keep them. If they put up said program for download, and then charged a once of fee for life, at a decent price, like say €1 a song, €5 an album, €5 for a movie only and €8 for all extra's from the dvd or something like that they'd have a much better chance at making people accept and use it, and still make a profit at the same time.

User45701

I hope they do raid homes but i know little or nothing about music so it wuldent effect me,
I hope they do it with games and DVDs aswell as music.

Please post a link in a week or 2 when it is finished (lol imagine the irony of reading your 10,000 word project while DL`in illigal files)

dangerman

just to add more detail, this is an extraordinarily controversial directive thats being pushed through 'quietly' .

what it does is allow, say, microsoft or EMI Ireland to go to court and get [without your knowledge] permission to raid and seize material. this is unbelievable; its not the gardai that would be seizing, it would be 'agents' of said company/industry organisation... and privacy advocates are seriously concerned that 1) your material is being seized without actual legal proceedings being filed against you and 2) it paves the way for literally thousands of litigation cases.

read more here: http://www.ffii.org.uk/releases/040219_trust.html

One of the very real concerns as well thats slightly off topic on this thread is the new stuff would allow companies to 'pull a SCO' ... hamper new innovative companies and open source projects by dumping legal claims on them until they're bled dry.

The above was fav. tactic of intel btw, (and many others i assume), any potential threat to their business, they just slap a huge law suit on the newbie, and bleed them dry with legal fees. Its nothing new, but the new eu directives tip the balance far too far in favour of big business according to some.

*one thing > im new to all this so dont take it as gospel, i could easily have misunderstood some things etc. if you want to know more, its just a google away....

TheSonOfBattles

All I have to say is: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

****s sake like, how did the bastards ever get it through so fucking quietly like?

kaimera

I'm downloading cake right now...mmhhhmmm warez cake

seriously tho, like it's beee pointed out, regardless of what we might think of d/l *stuff*, it IS illegal, no if's buts or any other crap.

all a company needs to do is put the cd protection thats on X2: the threat [as if this past friday, I had heard it was uncrackable]....or at least it would be a start.

dangerman

yeh, the main option missing from this pole is:

It's never ok, but I do it anyway.


I've read reports of people in the states claiming they didn't know that all that music they got off kazaa wasn't legite. I don't think anyone here would dare claim that. Everyone knows its wrong and bad, but does it anyway.

mr_angry

I wont deny I've got a lot of music from P2P networks. However, despite knowing that its technically wrong, I feel no remorse for doing so. As a student, I've had little or no money for the past 5 years, and I seriously doubt that I would have bought many, if any, more CDs in that period. Had I abided completely within the law, none of the music that I now appreciate would ever have reached my ears. Should I feel bad about that? Maybe, but I don't.

In any case, research has proved that P2P users buy more CDs than any other demograph - yet this is the demograph that the RIAA's litigation is targeting. Strange. Yes, sales of singles are down by 44% since 1999. However, album sales are significantly up. Could it be that Western Europe's economic success in recent years has led to a shift in the demand for music towards albums, rather than singles? Nah, must be the fault of the evil P2P networks. Could also be something to do with the repetititve pop-crap thrown at the singles market lately too.

There's also the question of situational ethics. i.e. The laws of the land are often directed by what the general population find acceptable. At some point, the populations of Europe decided that capital punishment was wrong - hence it was made illegal. Similarly, if the populations of Europe decide that sharing music is legal, should the laws then reflect this?

I think the panic in the music industry is a symptom of just how badly it is run, and the fear of imminent change in the way people (yes, the PEOPLE) treat music. They are resisting this change with all their might, just so the head of EMI can keep the plush chairs in his office, and waste €40m on the next One True Voice. I, for one, hope they get f***ed in the ass. If the bands suffer, as they presumably will when the labels scramble to maintain their rediculous profits, then I hope to see the formation of independant labels, where the bands receive a bigger percentage of sales profits.

It's alright to file-share, if WE DECIDE ITS ALRIGHT!

TheSonOfBattles

By jebus they better not start seizing for anime, cause if they do, us Europeans will have to wait years to get the lastest Japanese animes, and worse, most of the good one's won't get over here because the company decide that it won't sell well to a certain age demographic. Downloading is THE only option most of the time tbh. Yes you can buy certain one's, but there's a lot of good anime that isn't available in English (subbed or dubbed) except by download.

BigEejit

WRT that option that its ok to download software where you have lost or damaged the media ... surely this is ok because with all software that I am aware of, you dont buy the software but a license to use the software.... and if you have a license it surely doesnt matter if you have an original disk or a copy ....does it?

And if they start cracking down on this it will go underground, where there is a will there's a way ... I'd imagine something using anonymous proxies or similar would make life much harder for the big companies trying to catch them because lets not play around here, its the big companies that will get the benefit from this.

sceptre

Originally posted by mr_angry
At some point, the populations of Europe decided that capital punishment was wrong - hence it was made illegal.

Probably the only part of your post I find any fault with (second paragraph was nicely put by the way). I'll offer west Germany as one (possibly isolated, though I suspect not) example. When West Germany finally outlawed the death penalty, extensive polls indicated the penalty had a support rate of 74%. Twenty years later, support was at 17%.

Realistically I suspect that a major part of the RIAA's reason for clamping down is that they're terrified of someone making a successful business model out of music downloads without involving them. If they don't get their cut of the pie (and the extra bits like allowances for breakages and packaging that are still present in all current major record company-sanctioned download services) they'll not be best pleased.

User45701

Its illigal to download TV rips of TV shows isent it?

Are they going to care that much if you miss 1 episode of ur TV show half way through the new seris and you DL it before next weeks episode?

daveg

I personally rekon we have an awful lot of hypocritical folks on boards.ie. How many of you can honestly say you have never downloaded a copyright MP3 be it from P2P or the internet? If you want to get into a meaty argument how many of you have never taped an album onto cassette or for that matter how many of you have recorded a film/program onto a VHS tape? I have read/taken part in this debate many times on boards.ie and what pisses me off is the amount of "holy than thou" stances a lot of people take when you know most have commited "copyright infringement" (as defined above) themselves.

What is the difference between taping an album or downloading it and burning to CD? I see 2 differenced. 1/ the quality of the recording and 2/ the amount of money the music business are losing from each scenario (obviously they are losing more from MP3's).

Copyright infringement is illegal and no matter how we sugercoat it this fact will not change. However I think a lot of folks should get off their high horses "unless" they have not committed any of the acts mentioned above.

TheSonOfBattles

I've downloaded music/films/tv series's before, but the only thing i've downloaded in the last coupla months is anime. Not for any particularly good reason, just that it's all I really wanna watch tbh.

I'd hope I never came across as being on a high horse, and regardless of whether or not downloading anime becomes legal or stays illegal, i'll continue to do it remorse free because oft times it's the only way I'm gonna see the good anime. Music I barely listen to at the moment for some reason, and i've never been a big film person. I won't even try to say I never downloaded them but, if the entertainment industry in general would come to its collective senses, i'd be perfectly willing to pay for stuff at a reasonable price like I said above.

daveg

Originally posted by TheSonOfBattles
I've downloaded music/films/tv series's before, but the only thing i've downloaded in the last coupla months is anime. Not for any particularly good reason, just that it's all I really wanna watch tbh.

I'd hope I never came across as being on a high horse, and regardless of whether or not downloading anime becomes legal or stays illegal, i'll continue to do it remorse free because oft times it's the only way I'm gonna see the good anime. Music I barely listen to at the moment for some reason, and i've never been a big film person. I won't even try to say I never downloaded them but, if the entertainment industry in general would come to its collective senses, i'd be perfectly willing to pay for stuff at a reasonable price like I said above.

My point was not directed at you TheSonOfBattles or specifically anyone else who has posted on this thread. It's a vent from all the other threads I have read on the subject.

mr_angry

Originally posted by sceptre
Realistically I suspect that a major part of the RIAA's reason for clamping down is that they're terrified of someone making a successful business model out of music downloads without involving them.

TBH, I don't agree with downloading music in order to re-sell. It seems very wrong to me. However, "sharing" in itself I don't find wrong. Sure weren't we encouraged to do it as kids all the time?

Exit

Playing Devil's Advocate for a second: Don't most artists/filmmakers etc. want their work to reach a larger number of people rather than making money off it? Isn't that what true artists want most?

TheSonOfBattles

Yea, but since when did an artists opinion matter to most record companies? And also, a lot of the people releasing movies/music etc. are in it for the money, not for the artistic ideal.

Eurorunner

I like cake!

Johnny Versace

Depends. It's obviously wrong, but sometimes I just don't have the $$$...

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by User45701
Its illigal to download TV rips of TV shows isent it?

Are they going to care that much if you miss 1 episode of ur TV show half way through the new seris and you DL it before next weeks episode?

Well the advertisers would go gaga ..

hcvti

It is Wrong, but if the prices of DVD's, Computer Programs, Computer Games & CD's were all reasonable less people would be doing it,
I got 100 dvd-r's and 100 dvd cases for 123.32 delivered in ireland, you can get 100 CD-R's for about €35 euro's, so 1 cd costs 35c, 1 dvd & case costs roughly €1.25c, Why pay €35 or €40 for a new dvd, If they were being sold for €10 to €15 their would be a lot less piracy, I mean that's rediculious.

I don't condone Piracy but I also dont condone RIP-OFF by the record companies, film producers & Software manifacturers.


1 dvd & case costs roughly €1.25c to US, record companies get them for alot less!

dangerman

It is Wrong, but if the prices of DVD's, Computer Programs, Computer Games & CD's were all reasonable less people would be doing it, I got 100 dvd-r's and 100 dvd cases for 123.32 delivered in ireland, you can get 100 CD-R's for about €35 euro's, so 1 cd costs 35c, 1 dvd & case costs roughly €1.25c, Why pay €35 or €40 for a new dvd, If they were being sold for €10 to €15 their would be a lot less piracy, I mean that's rediculious.

Someone always puts forward this arguement, and its so simplistic.

Take computer games; for every Grand Theft Auto there's hundreds of titles which would fail to even break even. If you follow games news, u'll see that developers are constantly getting dropped by their publishers mid-way through projects etc. - the amount of wasted investment is enormous.

Also, they're arguement will always be that things are priced so high to offset the loss due to piracy. - Thats a circular arguement u end up with, the pirates say they steal the stuff because its too expensive, and say they'd buy it if they were more reasonable. The industries say if they sold all the extra units they would without piracy then they could afford to lower prices...and so it goes round...

However, the key issue is reward for innovation and creativity. If someone creates, society believes they should be rewarded for that.

Soon, society will have to adjust to unstoppable piracy, and its then that new business models and huge fallout from the collapse of copyright etc. will emerge.

pickarooney

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Well the advertisers would go gaga ..

But if you miss a particular episode, you're more likely to try and find a network showing the series a few weeks behind, and then the advertiser shoud start to worry.

Is it immoral not to buy anything that's advertised during a programme you enjoy?

nadir

yea, im one of those freedom of infomation type people. Its all good

passive

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/video/floppy.php

Civilian_Target

My general policy is if I can do an audioluchbox (ie. listen to the streaming version on their site) and like it, I'll buy it (generally online). If they only sell CDs, unless they're a local band, I'll try to download some first, and if I like it I'll buy it (I listen to a lot of music, and buy much more than my fair share of albums).

Matter of policy though, if its a copy-protected CD I will *never* buy it. Since I only really listen to music on my PC and in the car, it's just a very expensive frisbee as far as I'm concerned.

I think the record companies will survive this, but it should have a good knock-on effect. The prices of CDs will drop, and there'll be a wider selection available in the shops. Unfortunately though, I think DRM-protected downloads will slowly become the standard for downloaded music (much as it pains me to say this, and I say now I'll never pay for them) if only because the next version of Windows will enforce it all the time (because Microsoft own a substantial stake in EMI).

And finally, I sincerely hope they don't enforce those insane DMCA-style laws in Ireland (although the EUCD has already been passed, which is a major blow)

Silent Bob

Originally posted by dangerman
Downloading illegal software is never 'ok' ... its against the law.

Illegal software, yes. Software that you have already paid a licence for, no.

The whole issue of software licences is interesting in and of itself. The only reason that a company is even able to issue a licence with software is because of the 'temporary copy' made when running the program (e.g. the copying of chunks of code/data from storage to core to registers). If this weren't considered copying then companies wouldn't be able to dictate terms of use, copyright laws only give people rights to dictate terms of copying.

Ah well, long live the open-source licenses.

Wolfie

Originally posted by User45701
I hope they do raid homes but i know little or nothing about music so it wuldent effect me,
I hope they do it with games and DVDs aswell as music.

Please post a link in a week or 2 when it is finished (lol imagine the irony of reading your 10,000 word project while DL`in illigal files)

You hope the government has the power to kick your door in, and search through your hard drive if somebody tips them off that you've downloaded the theme song to 'Diff'rent Strokes' or the like? Hmm.. you're a strange person then.. Have a read of the book 1984 and see where it all ends up.

In my opinion, I have always pirated software, I think that software (particularly games) is overpriced, and in 98.7% of cases is never worth the money. Usually if i pirate games I play them for about a day or two, then lose interest. Also, before anyway else mentions it, game prices are not so high because of 'people like me', as the games indistry is raking in massive profits (its more profitable than the movie industry), so I completely refute the allegation that if nobody pirated games then prices would come down.

With music and film, if I like something I will buy it, as its better quality for a start. The likes of Half Life 2 I will also buy, because I never regretted buying the original, it provided me with value for money and enjoyment for a couple of years, and I have a respect for that. In contrast, I remember buying Black and White, the much hyped Molyneux game, which was at least a fiver more expensive than any game before it (for no reason other than the fact that it was so hyped), and being utterly disappointed.

Look at some of the truly dire games/software out there, now imagine paying 40 quid + for them... And many say piracy is wrong?!??

Wolfie

Originally posted by Kaimera
I'm downloading cake right now...mmhhhmmm warez cake

seriously tho, like it's beee pointed out, regardless of what we might think of d/l *stuff*, it IS illegal, no if's buts or any other crap.

all a company needs to do is put the cd protection thats on X2: the threat [as if this past friday, I had heard it was uncrackable]....or at least it would be a start.

X2 ... yeah, got a copy of that.. copy protection will never work. Its not a bad game, but you will quickly get bored of it after a couple of days., and not play it any more. Usual for a game these days.

mr_angry

As somebody already pointed out - where there's a will, there's a way. Even with Windows Longhorn, before long, somebody will crack the digital rights management code, and have it on the net in a jiffy. No matter what code they write to protect copyright, somebody will always be there with an alternative. The only real solution for the copyright owners is to tackle the source of the problem. i.e. Why do people not care about ripping them off?

Hyzepher

The fact of the matter is that piracy has entered a state where it is now nearly impossible to eliminate its existance. The only hope for the developers etc is to try an reduce the amount of people who actually prefer to have a pirate copy than the real thing. This could be done by including some added value item with the cd, game etc - something tangible that cant be downloaded etc. This may or may not be viable.

Microsoft have somewhat combated the piracy of their 'Live' games as you need an original to play online - some of the PC developers have had the same success with their online titles also - they can implement checks at their server side. In fact we made see game developers employing an online authentic check on all media before it can be used - a bit like Windows XP. It may not eliminate the ability to pirate but it may make it too much of a hassle for the average punter to use.

Game developers should sell you the bulk of the game via your friendly game retail store and then insisted that you go online to d/l the last 5% - which included many checks to ensure that the game was linked to that pc / serial codes etc - you could redownload if you are getting a new computer or such but then it would be linked to that one. If the d/l element was small it wouldn't hinder non broadband users.

imo - music/game developers should abandon disk protection as we know it now - it costs a bundle to research and implement and seems to be cracked as soon as it hits the shelves. The money could be put to better use

Hyzepher

Pugsley

One simple rule for 'pirate protected software', the more you gloat about how un-crackable it is, the quicker it will be cracked (and it WILL be cracked).

I have to say the only 2 full games Ive downloaded have been games I previously owned (age of empires2, and Ghost Recon) I have no idea where Aoe2 ended up, but my Ghost Recon CD got snapped in 2 by my wee brother. Downloading full games you never brought is wrong, people do it, I dont, the only full games you should download are abandonware or previously owned games.

dangerman

people who say DRM will eventually become the norm for everything are missing an important point.

Which would u choose to purchase: an operating system which allowed you only to play protected files, or one that allowed you to play protected & unprotected?

anyone who brought out a CD with built in DRM to prevent copying from it, would soon be put out of business by a company who brought out one which could copy.

^^ The only way that this can be stopped as I said before is with government laws that force consumers to purchase only DRM/Trusted computing tech. And I for one would never allow such a law to be passed, and neither would any of you.

Open Source is the knife in the side of big business and the wound is already bleeding. All it will take is for microsoft to 'force' users into making their computers 'less their own' and easier for business to make money out of users. ... then u'll see the final take over of linux.

Important to realise (from www.worldofends.com )

The Internet:
No one owns it.
Everyone can use it.
Anyone can improve it.

User45701

Well said dangerman.

I have always belived that at some stage piricy will be much much harder and hopefully impossible.

I do not belive in downloading illigal files but i can tell you for a fact that if the last episode of friends or some big episode of SG1 or Star Trek or 24 (how can u watch that) or if there is some season finale - a BIg important episode of some TV show that allot of people like and there was a power cut in dublin and everyone missed it, the next day a large % of those that missed the episode would Dowbnload it the next day when power was back up

MrPinK

Originally posted by Hyzepher
Microsoft have somewhat combated the piracy of their 'Live' games as you need an original to play online - some of the PC developers have had the same success with their online titles also - they can implement checks at their server side. In fact we made see game developers employing an online authentic check on all media before it can be used - a bit like Windows XP. It may not eliminate the ability to pirate but it may make it too much of a hassle for the average punter to use.

I wouldn't exactly call these systems successful. I've seen a couple of threads on the games forum where people have bought legitamate copies of games and when they went to play online were unable to because someone else was using their keys. The same happened with Windows XP. It's serial generation algorithm was broken and now everytime someone goes to activate their copy of XP there's a chance they won't be allowed because the serial has already been used. Instead of just hurting the company, with this system both the company and their legitimate customers suffer.

Tazzle

Have done, will do, couldn't give a cráp. I'm out for number 1.