Best Martial Art for self-defense?

jerenaugrim

Hi all, just wondering what wd b the best martial art to learn for self-defense? In the job I have now, I get threatened a fair bit, and I reckon it's only a matter of time before someone goes for me. I'll need to be able to look after myself, so what shd I learn? I've wanted to try judo for a while, but I'm not sure that it wd b the best one in any situation that might arise (I'm a Night Porter/ Door Security type in a big hostel). Any suggestions?

xx

For the job you're in, either Judo or Ju Jitsu. Grappling/restraining martial arts would be best. Nothing with punching cuz its a one-way route to getting your P45 if you punch the head off someone who attacks you.

bandraoi

I'd go for Judo because you get practical experience of actually fighting in training sessions right from the start.

Lemming

Some sort of grappling/throwing art, or one that combines different techniques?

I would be wary of judo for two reasons; firstly that since it is an actual 'sport' it has ritualised ways of doing things which implies lack of adaptability which in a real-life situation could be very unfortunate and in order to counter this you'd want to be very proficient at judo.

Secondly, and more importantly, is the simple fact taht if you throw someone on concrete who doesn't know their ukemi (or equivalents) you can seriously f*ck them up. A lot more so than with any sort of simple punch or kick.

geoffer

J, lots of guys in your situation in my club.

Judo's good too. Sure, it's a sport, but it's a sport where you dump people on the ground. Sport styles imply you're trying your stuff against a resisting opponent; if you're not doing this you're dancing.

Unjaku

Strictly speaking, a martial arts class is not your first port of call if you want to address your personal safety. Its more like the icing on the cake.

You're in a very specific position as a hostel worker, and you are working in an environment not unlike those of a hotel night porter, barperson and to a lesser extent proper security staff.

The first things you need to ask yourself:-

-Do you have the support of your co-workers and employers if you are assaulted? That means before, during and after. Establish exactly what their expectations are now, rather than later, and you may avoid unwelcome surprises.

-What is your legal status? Are you insured if you have your jaw broken, or if you injure someone else. How far does whatever cover exists extend? For example, a barpersons insurance as regards matters of self defence extends only as far as the confines of the bar in most senses. If they go over the counter to intervene in an incident, it can be regarded as being in their capacity as a private person, not an employee of the establishment they are working in. I'd suggest sitting down with your employer and figuring out exactly what kind of legal framework you are expected to work within, and where the limits are.

-Is a learning a martial art or combat sport really going to address your specific set of problems? If you are more concerned about self defence as opposed to learning to fight, then a formal class may not be your first port of call.

Starting at the start, your first order of business is to learn a little bit about :

Awareness : The most effective form of self defence you can develop is the capacity to nip things in the bud. Get on top of little problems before they become big problems. This entails learning about body language, speech patterns and other pre-incident indicators which will allow you to be prepared as opposed to surprised should things escalate. (Try http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440226198/104-3759075-3255901?v=glance or http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671535110/104-3759075-3255901?v=glance for very general guides which contain information relating to awareness and boundary setting etc.).

De-escalation / interviewing : Can you 'talk' to people? Learn how to de-escalate verbally situations before they escalate into actual physical encounters. In crude terms, it can mean appearing submissive when necessary to avoid violence (you trade a little bit of your ego for a quiet life) or contrarily, being assertive and dominant when required. This is the mainstay skill that lies behind being a successful doorperson or indeed in any job which involves dealing with the public. (A classic text on the subject http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0317075209/104-3759075-3255901?v=glance , or alternatively the more widely available http://www.studentbookworld.com/BookDetail/1840240857.html)

I would argue that addressing the above material is far more important as regards staying safe in a job working with unpredictable members of the public than actually knowing how to physically fight. The vast majority of the situations you will encounter will require being aware, good good communication skills and the ability to keep a level head under pressure. Whatever fighting skill you may develop from martial arts or combat sports (a relatively long term process, incidentally, do you still intend to be in this job six months or a year from now? If you begin training, you'll likely only see marked benefits after training for at least this length of time) is there as a safety net, it does not replace the need for a basic grasp of these things.

As regards choosing a martial art or combat sport : Shop around and find and instructor you are comfortable with, and who you believe will help you reach your goals. Tell him what they are, clearly, and see how he reacts. Observe classes and watch senior students. If you are not impressed by them, then you should probably look elsewhere, as they will be symptiomatic of what that group produces.

Good luck.

xx

Originally posted by Lemming
I would be wary of judo for two reasons; firstly that since it is an actual 'sport' it has ritualised ways of doing things which implies lack of adaptability which in a real-life situation could be very unfortunate and in order to counter this you'd want to be very proficient at judo.

Secondly, and more importantly, is the simple fact taht if you throw someone on concrete who doesn't know their ukemi (or equivalents) you can seriously f*ck them up. A lot more so than with any sort of simple punch or kick.

I'd agree and disagree with you here, Griff. On the first point, agreed, Judo is a sport. However, Randori's are very seldom ritualised. It usually comes down to a pair of guys throwing their full weight either into or away from their opponent and yanking each other all over the gaff. In a proper fight, if a Judo guy was hauling the ass of another guy around, it'd be incredibly difficult for the other guy to hit at all, or even throw a knee, headbutt etc. - comes down to the fact that Judoka will grab the arms, shirtfront, shoulder or whatever to get the throw in. Believe me, in a proper Randori, you'll be mauling each other until one person goes down. I've been in Randori with guys a lot bigger than me and the same size as me and trust me, its balls to the wall......assuming that the training other people get is as good as the training I got. Plus, a lot of people who do Judo tend to have either an interest or knowledge of stuff like Ju Jitsu or grappling etc. Therefore anything can be thrown into the mix. And again, also, we've also been shown the 'sneaky' ways of getting someone flattened, including skin holds, applying the elbow whenever possible and generally getting a bit rough in the ruck. Add to that a general smattering of arm and shoulder locks, chokes and strangles and you have a good all-round defense system, assuming its applied properly without mercy to the antagonist.
But that said, I will wholeheartedly agree with you about the possible damage you can inflict on someone. Two words come into mind: Compensation culture. Sure, Mr. Knacker or Mr. Random Pi$$head will start throwing haymakers when he's trying to get tough, but the minute you put his ass on the ground, here comes the claim against you. It's the way it is really. Thats why I said that Judo is good if "its applied properly". To take a guy down, there should be no need for shoulder throws or osoto-gari's, a leg trip or throw will do and then pin them when they give you their back. But again, the way people will turn events around and try to sue your ass if you do this is....irratating.

beekon

for stand up fighting train in boxing and muay thai...
for ground work and throws train in brazilian ju jutsu or judo or wrestling(not the wwe stuff)...
they've all got their pro's and con's so do some cross training and see what works for you... but ya should definitly try muay thai...there's nothing better than getting knee'd in the head a couple of times...

'irish fighter' magazine is a good source to find a club near you...

jerenaugrim

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.
To clarify: I don't want to learn how to fight. If a situation comes to that, I've failed in my job. 99.9% of situations can and shd b dealt with before anything physical happens. It's the absolutely unavoidable, crazy 0.1% that I'll need some backup for. And not to hurt anyone, either. Just to stop them hurting anyone (me included!).
Cheers. J.

Musashi

What UNJAKU said!

If it goes beyond what he's covered you are no longer in a work situation,you are in a self defense situation.I don't know about you , but if I am threatened/verbally abused I will take a guy out.This does not mean some ninja death touch stuff, it may be as easy as using a wrist lock and escorting his sorry ass off the premises.In a job, as in Real Life,you cannot just whup on someone cause you felt threatened by them.You can talk to them or ignore them.You can ask a patron to leave.You cannot beat people up!
I feel in a barman type scenario your best bet is humour!Mock the heart out of the guy until he's disgruntled and leaves!Failing that,be his friend,call him a taxi so he gets home ok.At worst, you have to remove him from the premises!!Now you need speed and cunning.Wait until he's not looking and "rush" him out the door, locking it after him!
If u don't want to hurt a person don't fight them.You don't want them to hurt others,get them out.Any conflict between two people will involve hurt, make sure it's not you!

xx

Originally posted by Musashi
What UNJAKU said!

If it goes beyond what he's covered you are no longer in a work situation,you are in a self defense situation.I don't know about you , but if I am threatened/verbally abused I will take a guy out.This does not mean some ninja death touch stuff, it may be as easy as using a wrist lock and escorting his sorry ass off the premises.In a job, as in Real Life,you cannot just whup on someone cause you felt threatened by them.You can talk to them or ignore them.You can ask a patron to leave.You cannot beat people up!
I feel in a barman type scenario your best bet is humour!Mock the heart out of the guy until he's disgruntled and leaves!Failing that,be his friend,call him a taxi so he gets home ok.At worst, you have to remove him from the premises!!Now you need speed and cunning.Wait until he's not looking and "rush" him out the door, locking it after him!
If u don't want to hurt a person don't fight them.You don't want them to hurt others,get them out.Any conflict between two people will involve hurt, make sure it's not you!

All good in principle dude. But I seen this programme last night (sunday) about the police in england dealing with drunks and scumbags on saturday nights. Wouldn't get too far trying to humour them, I can tells ya.

Lemming

Originally posted by xx
All good in principle dude. But I seen this programme last night (sunday) about the police in england dealing with drunks and scumbags on saturday nights. Wouldn't get too far trying to humour them, I can tells ya.

Violence is the last resort xx, not the first. Just because the police in country X handle things a certain way, that's no means a sanction for you to go out trying to kick someone's head in (and probably getting your own not only kicked in but shattered instead).

jerenaugrim did state that he didn't intend to be in the job long enough that would require becoming proficient in a martial art. So it's entirely pragmatic to say that such a route is (probably) not the best for his immediate needs. Would you rather he tried to take someone on with two weeks judo training and a very, very, very basic grasp of how it works? No? Why not?

I think Unjaku gave some very sound advice.

Drexl Spivey

Anyone knows about Brazilian Ju Jitsu ?

It is a grappling style with lots of realistic moves. Apparently we have a good trainer in Ireland in the name of John Kavanagh.


www.irishbjj.com



Judo is good but it is not enough for street fight. And you need to be strong. That is why there is weight category in Judo. If you lack of technics but weigh 200 lbs you will win over a 130 lbs black belt.
Also you train with a Kimono

Wrestling or Sambo is good.

BEst locks are Aikido locks because your opponent is on his belly, facing the ground (impossible to get out of it) whereas in Judo, the opponent is locked down on his back, which allow him to get out with strength and/or techniques, which is why it is a sport.

Musashi

Wrestling,Sambo,BJJ all have a major failing in that they all go to the ground.In a bar you go down there will most likely be broken glass etc. there.Also, what about the people you take down with you in the melee?Outside it's even worse, go to the ground with a guy and you may find his mates want to have a boot party on your body.This is not to say that the standing grapples are not valid and useful tools,but they are hard to learn and apply on a stronger opponnent who has become numbed to pain compliance by his intake of alcohol.
How the police anywhere deal with drunks has no relevance here as the original thread was not started by an officer of the law.
Similarly, this person is looking for a quick and effective programme of instruction.Taking four different martial arts will be even slower than trying one.Traditional Martial Arts still have a steep learning curve and it can take years for some one to be effective.Also, the blocking,wrapping,trapping etc. of styles like Aikido requires a higher level of skill in blending with your opponnents force.This is not the easy option!
Again, as a barman/night porter are you entitled to ask people to leave or refuse to admit them in the first place? If it's not your job, get the guy whose job it is to do it! If you are a doorman you should not be working alone, a minimum of two should be on door work.Also, you must be licensed to work a door now,if you don't have the credentials you are on very shaky ground legally should you injure someone while trying to eject them from a premises.There is a case ongoing currently where a patron was choked to death while being restrained by door staff.
It is up to you and your employers to get you certified and trained to work in this capacity.If you are just being told to go work on the door then your employers are wrong and have no business asking you to perform in this capacity.
Your best defense at the moment is awareness.Learn to spot the guys coming looking for trouble.Try to de-escalate things at the "Interview" stage of proceedings.
Try to be tactful and Do Not lose your temper,this will ensure the fight goes ahead.
If asked "WTF are you looking at??" do not reply "I dunno but it's Momma dresses it funny!"
Keep an eye open for the macho guys trying to impress mates or girl friends with how tough they are.Look out for mates of the guy your dealing with trying to blindside you.The tunnel vision produced during an altercation can severely narrow your field of view.Combined with an adrenal dump this can render you pretty ineffevtive even if the fight never happens. Geoff Thompson has lots of good stuff on being a doorman and reality based training at his site.

http://www.geoffthompson.com/

Hope this helps and watch yourself out there!

Kev

Originally posted by Jeff Bond
Anyone knows about Brazilian Ju Jitsu ?

It is a grappling style with lots of realistic moves. Apparently we have a good trainer in Ireland in the name of John Kavanagh.


www.irishbjj.com



Judo is good but it is not enough for street fight. And you need to be strong. That is why there is weight category in Judo. If you lack of technics but weigh 200 lbs you will win over a 130 lbs black belt.
Also you train with a Kimono

Wrestling or Sambo is good.

BEst locks are Aikido locks because your opponent is on his belly, facing the ground (impossible to get out of it) whereas in Judo, the opponent is locked down on his back, which allow him to get out with strength and/or techniques, which is why it is a sport.

Why is judo not enough for a street fight ?
There are weight categories in all the arts you mentioned except aikido as there is no competition in aikido.

What is bad about training in a kimono, bjj, sambo and aikido train in a kimono.

In bjj, wrestling and sambo an opponent is "locked down on his back", in wrestling it is the entire focus of the sport.
I also doubt it is impossible to get out of a an aikido lock or that you can just muscle out of being held down on your back.
You say judo is not enough but sambo is good, do you know the difference between sambo and judo ?

xx

Originally posted by Lemming
jerenaugrim did state that he didn't intend to be in the job long enough that would require becoming proficient in a martial art.

I read thru this thread twice and couldn't find where exactly he/she said this. Where did they say this?
What they DID say, however, is that they needed a way to de-escalate the 0.1% of problems that get out of hand and become physical. I suggested Judo as such a method as from my experience of it it is incredibly useful as an all-round method of defense and has many of the moves necessary to render someone incapacitated long enough for the police etc. to remove them. This, to clarify, is still the 0.1% I am talking about here, and not a one-man vigilante operation that you're seeming to hint towards.
I also believe that Unjaku gave good advice, but its the advice that everyone knows and if they didn't know it, they shouldn't be in the line of work jerenaugrim is in. Speaking of which, I find it baffling as to how jerenaugrim got into this work without knowing how to deal with the 0.1%. Surely that should've been raised when he started the position.
I am also fully aware that violence is a final option. I was making the example of that programme about the english police to highlight that de-escalation of a problem through communication with the antagonist should never be 100% relied on. There is, again, always the 0.1%...which in this country is more like 25% in reality.
So I'll thank you not to put both words in my mouth and distort my argument when you are fully aware of what I mean and what I am trying to convey. ONce again, my point was "For the job you're in, either Judo or Ju Jitsu. Grappling/restraining martial arts would be best. Nothing with punching cuz its a one-way route to getting your P45 if you punch the head off someone who attacks you". I fail to see how you could insinuate (1) that I'm sanctioning for people to go out trying to kick someone's head in, (2) that I'm giving incorrect information and (3) that jerenaugrim should take someone on with two weeks judo training and a very, very, very basic grasp of how it works (when in reality I merely stated Judo as an option - no one can become proficient or even remotely effecient in 2 weeks).

Lemming

Originally posted by xx
I read thru this thread twice and couldn't find where exactly he/she said this. Where did they say this?

You're absolutely right xx, apologies for that gaff. I dunno where I got it unto my head that he's specifically said that. I think I must have just seen the hostel worker bit and assumed short-term.

I fail to see how you could insinuate (1) that I'm sanctioning for people to go out trying to kick someone's head in,

That wasn't directly applied to you, but a general comment. I get worried about this board sometimes and am acutely aware that someone may end up getting very very badly messed up as a result of reading the wrong thing out of a post. That particular comment looked like it could have been read either way xx which is why I made the comment I made.

Drexl Spivey

Originally posted by Kev
Why is judo not enough for a street fight ?
There are weight categories in all the arts you mentioned except aikido as there is no competition in aikido.

Judo is good for some technics but lack some others. When you immobilize someone on the ground, what do you do after ? wait all night until the guy start crying ? And regarding the Kimono : try Judo moves with someone who s wearing a shirt or nothing at all. You won t have a good grip and will lose 50 % of your capabilities.


What is bad about training in a kimono, bjj, sambo and aikido train in a kimono.
They all have kimonos but they don t use it as much


I also doubt it is impossible to get out of a an aikido lock or that you can just muscle out of being held down on your back.

Right then if you know what you're talking about , you must know that a 50kg judoka applying a Hon Kesa Gatame on a 120 kg will last 1/10 sec , right ?
Okay you will rarely find this difference of a weight between 2 opponents but it is already hard for 2 people of the same size.



You say judo is not enough but sambo is good, do you know the difference between sambo and judo ?

In saying that Judo is not enough, I am not saying that Judo is not good. I am implying that you need Judo as well as other moves if you want to really be efficient in the street, judo itself wouldn t be enough.

xx

Originally posted by Jeff Bond
Judo is good for some technics but lack some others. When you immobilize someone on the ground, what do you do after ? wait all night until the guy start crying ? And regarding the Kimono : try Judo moves with someone who s wearing a shirt or nothing at all. You won t have a good grip and will lose 50 % of your capabilities.

Firstly, you wait for the cops to appear and remove the offender. Why, what would you do? Rip off his arm and beat him with the wet end?
Also, in any decent Judo class, you'll be shown how to perform your throws using skin-holds (taking someone by the arm instead of their gi). So there won't be nearly as much as 50% loss of techniques. Also, how many fights do you get into when you're wearing "nothing at all" as you say? Unless this guy is a bouncer in a nudist resort, I think you can scrap that one.


I also doubt it is impossible to get out of a an aikido lock or that you can just muscle out of being held down on your back.

Depends on your skill reallly. I'd hate to try to muscle out of some judo/ju-jitsu/aikido holds cuz I'd imagine it'd be like raking your sack across a barbed-wire fence. For average Joe Punter with zilch MA experience, muscling out could result in a lot of pain and probably a courtcase for you after the guy mangles his shoulder or something in the process.

You say judo is not enough but sambo is good, do you know the difference between sambo and judo ?

In saying that Judo is not enough, I am not saying that Judo is not good. I am implying that you need Judo as well as other moves if you want to really be efficient in the street, judo itself wouldn t be enough.

I concur here. What is 'enough' for self defense? Time honoured question there.

geoffer

...regarding the Kimono : try Judo moves with someone who s wearing a shirt or nothing at all. You won t have a good grip and will lose 50 % of your capabilities.

I remember going up against a Judoka - we were both wearing t-shirts, shorts and 16 ounce gloves. My surprise at the throw was matched only by the disorientation of seeing my feet facing skywards and the cracking noise in my skull. It put me off the whole "Judo only works in a kimono", but I was quite convinced of it beforehand.

The same guy showed me how collar chokes work with normal t-shirts. The downside is you get a ripped t-shirt at the end of it.

To try a different angle, would you agree with the following statement?

"Try BJJ moves on someone wearing a heavy shirt or jacket. You won't be able to move because they aren't wearing a rashguard and fight shorts; you'll loose 50% of your capabilities."

I think the way to settle the Judo Vs Aikido debate - like so many martial arts debates - involves two representatives, minimal rules and padding, and a clear verdict.

My money's on the judoka.

xx

Originally posted by geoffer
I think the way to settle the Judo Vs Aikido debate - like so many martial arts debates - involves two representatives, minimal rules and padding, and a clear verdict.

My money's on the judoka.

shit dude, I don't know about that. My trainer is a 6th Dan in Judo but one of my lecturers is an Aikido black belt (or equivilant). I still think that it would be a fair match. However, Aikido is about flow - you don't get much of that when a Judoka goes for a double or single leg takedown or just takes an iron grip on the collar and goes for the throw. Pro's and con's, its all pro's and con's.
But to go back to the original question, I'd recommend either of the above or ju-jitsu for the guy in question. Security/Bouncers should be trained to restrain, not headbutt or roundhouse.

geoffer

Aikido - I've never been sure about it. Watching footage of Morihei Ueshiba in his 80's throwing round his students always gave me two feelings:

(1) That looks cool
(2) If none of his students can give him any sort of challenge, he must be a lousy coach

I did Aikido for a few months and it was fun, but I can't reconcile what I know about boxing and a style that thinks it can intercept / redirect punches.

Anyway, my money's always on the fighter who's competition tested. Much like my money's always on the driver who's been 'round the course before or the rugby team who know what the ball looks like. What other way could you learn?

jerenaugrim

Thanks again for all the replies.
I think I'll try a few different martial arts and see which one (or ones) I like. As I said at the start, I've always wanted to try judo, and now I've got extra incentive. I think I can look after most situations thru awareness of body language, patter, etc (10 yrs as a barman;) ), but some nights there's a level of aggression around the place that wasn't there even a cupla years ago. I don't think my employers know this- that society in general seems to have become that bit more brutal- but I'll be bringing it up with them.
Thanks again. I'll let ye know if (when!) I get hopped.:)

Drexl Spivey

Originally posted by geoffer

Anyway, my money's always on the fighter who's competition tested. Much like my money's always on the driver who's been 'round the course before or the rugby team who know what the ball looks like. What other way could you learn?

In that case, you have to street fight then... Because no sport/art gives you a realistic approach to street fighting.

In rugby, the aim is to play a match, that is what they are trained for.
In self-Defence, the aim is to manage any kind of attacks from any opponents, in any situation. That, you do not learn in a Dojo (Judo, boxing, or Aikido!)

:ninja:

geoffer

In that case, you have to street fight then... Because no sport/art gives you a realistic approach to street fighting.

Who said anything about streetfights? I said in a cage fight between Judoka and Aikidoka I'd bet on the Judoka because he had previous experience of competing in a realistic manner against a resisting opponent.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

As you brought it up, in a streetfight between a Judoka and an Aikidoka I'd bet on the guy with competition experience. He (I'm assuming both are male, we are more violent) has experience of performing his techniques against a truly resisting opponent, has experience of someone trying to hurt him and is probably in better shape. If you like, there's some good articles on the street Vs sport BS here: http://www.straightblastgym.com/page.asp?section=sport&parent=Press&session=

In that case, you have to street fight then... Because no sport/art gives you a realistic approach to street fighting.

Streetfighting doesn't give you a realistic approach to streetfighting - all fights are different. In a streetfight, a boxer would be forced by his unrealistic training to limit himself to hitting the other guy really, really hard. A judoka would be stuck in a loop throwing the guy on concrete. The Aikidoka would be busily waiting for him to try a wrist grab

In rugby, the aim is to play a match, that is what they are trained for.

True. But if you change the length of the pitch they'd still be able to play, because their training would have been very close.

In self-Defence, the aim is to manage any kind of attacks from any opponents, in any situation. That, you do not learn in a Dojo (Judo, boxing, or Aikido!)

Mainly because that goal is impossible. What (if anything) do you train in?

Edited to add: Two J/Geoffs joining in February and posting in the MA/self defence BB. If I wasn't one of them I'd think something fishy was going on... :P

xx

Originally posted by jerenaugrim
I don't think my employers know this- that society in general seems to have become that bit more brutal

There's a difference between not knowing and not caring. Thats the thing about the bar/nightclub/entertainment trade in ireland - the owners do not give a fuck as long as the dosh is rolling in.
I also agree with your point about society becoming more brutal. There are nights I go out and...its kinda hard to describe....but you can almost 'feel' the aggression or hostility in the air. Know what I mean?

jerenaugrim

Originally posted by xx
There's a difference between not knowing and not caring. Thats the thing about the bar/nightclub/entertainment trade in ireland - the owners do not give a fuck as long as the dosh is rolling in.
I also agree with your point about society becoming more brutal. There are nights I go out and...its kinda hard to describe....but you can almost 'feel' the aggression or hostility in the air. Know what I mean?

In my situation- nights in a backpacker hostel- I genuinely think the boss hasn't copped on yet. He's starting to now. But things have really gotten that bit nastier in the couple of years since I was last in a similar type job. I know what u mean, xx- there's that 'something' in the air these days.

BTW, does anyone know anything about Ninpo? There's a guy advertising classes. What's the story with it?

:ninja:

xx

I think Lemming does Ninpo?!?

vasch_ro

Hello folks my few cents worth ..........
firstly Ninpo is another name for Ninjutsu they fighting techniques of which are normally referred to as Tai- jutsu , I would definately check out the Bona Fides of any one before you started training with them. Irish Fighter Magazine is a good place to start.

To my mind Judo and BJJ have one major advantage over say Aikido in that from the start you train against a resisting opponent. They do not go in for dead pattern drills thus in a short time you pick up useful skills.

Also it seems to be a common misperception on this board that BJJ is all about groundwork, its not its just that the guiding principle is to take your opponent to the ground where the BJJ guy will have the advantage. Thus stand up work is included as well in order to learn how to take down some one to the ground. This work is useful for restraining and controlling people outside the gym as well.
You will know straight away it works because akin to outside the gym your training partner will do his/hers damndest to prevent you controling him etc ( minus the booze and drugs in most case's). In other words there is resistance involved.
Traditional Martial Arts often lack this element of resistance because the techniques are often deemed to dangerous to attempt, thus you are always wondering does it actually work .................

Also perhaps the most humane way to control some one is to apply a choke hold, rather than to bludgen them unconcious with punchs and kicks and knees.
Thai boxing while very effective and obviously incorporates this idea of resistance
but knee some one in the head continually and yiu could be in trouble.

Lastly remember the idea of reasonable force is what the law in Ireland revolves around you can only use what force is necessary to control another person and elimanate any risk to yourself, otherwise its the the criminal and civil courts for you my friends.

Is there any chance you could get a safer job ?

Yours in the martial arts

Seion

I am involved with ninpo, or budo taijutsu as it’s also known. As with all arts, it has its pros and cons – if you are interested in studying it, shop around for a good teacher. It is an unusual art in that it allows for a wide range of interpretation and focus on behalf of the teacher, so different teachers are free to express their own interests more or less than any others. One teacher may teach it as an extremely hard self defence orientated art, while others will focus more on the traditional Japanese elements of the arts encompassed by ninpo. As with any art, it’s only as good as the teacher you train with.

Any good teacher should however either visit Japan at least once a year to train with a senior teacher or should be able to tell you who they trained with and where. They should also be able to show you a teaching license and a current membership card for either this year or last in a Japanese budo organisation. Noone who is on the level will be insulted by these questions. (There are a few whackos around who made up their own martial art and called it ninjutsu, when actually what they do has no connection to any art in Japan. This might not bother you, but as all ways, caveat emptor)

Ninpo takes a long time to learn, but it is truly a life time endeavour and can be enormously satisfying – it contains an awful lot more than most arts, and depending on how you view these things, that can be either good or bad. It’s bad in that if you have an immediate physical need – such as jerenaugrim – it’s probably not a great choice. On the other hand, it teaches quite a high level of awareness and self reliance from an early stage, so it can help you develop the most important self defence skill of situational awareness from the beginning.

As for the original query concerning working in a night hostel - martial arts will only play a very small part in the solution to your problem. Our society does not look favourably on physical violence, despite justification. As you are working in a hostel, you will be easily identified and prosecuted if you damage someone. It's not the same as being in a scrap on a night out, where your attacker will have no comeback if you kick his head in.

He will know where to find you. Martial arts need to be responsibly taught in context. It's one thing to teach people how to defend themselves and damage others but understanding the consequences of such actions is also very important, at least in my opinion.

jerenaugrim

Thanks again.

Re getting a safer job- I like this one. And one of the reasons I'm looking for a martial art is so I don't have to box the head off anyone. Reasonable moves to protect myself and our non-violent residents is all I want. Plus all the philosophy attached (I've got a degree in Philosophy:rolleyes: ). If I only wanted to hurt anyone, I'd get a punchbag for the shed!
Cheers, J.

xx

You didn't happen to get that Philosophy degree in Trinity College, did you?

M@lice

Ju jitsu gets my vote. You can learn afew self defence techniques immediately that are useful in the real world. The way i learn it is we analyse a situation (ie some throws a haymaker at you) and then we practice how to defend ourselves from such an attack.

Also avoiding a fight better than winning a fight!

jerenaugrim

Originally posted by xx
You didn't happen to get that Philosophy degree in Trinity College, did you?

No, UCC. Why?

xx

Ah nothin'. I just sort of knew a guy who did a philosophy degree in Trinity who does part-time security work in some bars in town. Not often you see philosophy students doing jobs like those though - I thought ye were a lot more.....genteel

MrNuked

I think boxing has a significant advantage over martial arts here because boxers get plenty of pratcice getting punched. I'm aware of people who trained a lot in martial arts who were unable to stand up for themselves in a fight, because they din;t know how to deal with real threats and violence.

jerenaugrim

Originally posted by xx
Ah nothin'. I just sort of knew a guy who did a philosophy degree in Trinity who does part-time security work in some bars in town. Not often you see philosophy students doing jobs like those though - I thought ye were a lot more.....genteel

Ya, people tend to be a bit surprised alright...especially when they come over all superior, and you point out that you're better educated than them- which is one way of defusing certain situations! The guy I share the job with has a Masters in marine engineering, but takes a lot of **** because of his accent. I then point out that as he's a veteran of the Croatian war, maybe the agressor would like to re-think their attitude

A bit of commonsense defuses most situations. As does quoting Nietzche. And in Nic's case, when he was confronted by this guy who claimed to have been in Special Forces-
"I look at my arm, which was shattered by the bullet. I look at the guy. I say, A tough guy does not have to say he is tough. I say, You leave, now. He leaves."

Drexl Spivey

Originally posted by MrNuked
I think boxing has a significant advantage over martial arts here because boxers get plenty of pratcice getting punched. I'm aware of people who trained a lot in martial arts who were unable to stand up for themselves in a fight, because they din;t know how to deal with real threats and violence.

This is not entirely true to believe that because you get hit on a ring, you are prepaired for a fight.

It is a mistake to think that boxers are fighters. Boxing is a sport.

You are talking about martial artists who were unable to stand up for themselves in a fight, it is not because of the art, but because of themselves.

I knew someone who was really tough (jail, foreign legion for 5 years , bouncer in Paris, other stuff) , the guy was really tough and you could tell just by looking at him. He was bouncer in a nigt club in Paris along with another guy who was a full contact / kick boxing champ. When nasty trouble occured at the door for the first time, the "champ" didn t have what it takes and didn t help at all. (Guy I knew was upset) I didn t witness this particular scrap but I have seen the guy in action and he s no liar.


To come back to the point : there is one thing boxing is good for for sure, it is the physical training/conditioning. It sometimes lack in martial arts, but again martial artists should work out outside the dojo.

Again, boxing is good, but you can't say it is better than martial arts.

Another example : UFC 2 , Remco Pardool is a Judo black belt and knocked out (badly) Orlando Weit who was 7 times (I think it is 7) Thai Boxing World champ..


I think there is this misleading conception by some to believe that boxing is the real deal and martial arts are for movies.

xx

Originally posted by Jeff Bond
Another example : UFC 2 , Remco Pardool is a Judo black belt and knocked out (badly) Orlando Weit who was 7 times (I think it is 7) Thai Boxing World champ..

Holy shit, I remember that match. I think that was the one where Remco had the guy on the ground in a scarf hold and then just bludgeoned the guy with about 5 or 6 elbows and mashed his face in. Class match.

Drexl Spivey

yep that s the one.

I remember I was really disappointed to see that a world class thai boxer didn t even deliver 1 low kick or punch to a judoka. (at the time I really didn t like grappling styles)

But then it shows that even Thai Boxing is just a sport. In this UFC match there was only 1 round and no weight category , and no gloves of course.



btw, the most impressive fight of this ufc 2 in my opinion is the one between the ninjutsu fighter and Patrick Smith ... Scary fight over in 10 seconds, ultra violent.

xx

Originally posted by Jeff Bond
btw, the most impressive fight of this ufc 2 in my opinion is the one between the ninjutsu fighter and Patrick Smith ... Scary fight over in 10 seconds, ultra violent.

Hard to believe that was waaay back in UFC 2. I remember that one too (good choice, by the way). Pat Smith on top - punch, punch, punch, punch, punch, punch, elbow, elbow, elbow - match over.

geoffer

>> This is not entirely true to believe that because you get hit on a ring, you are prepaired for a fight.
Prepared? Maybe, maybe not. Better prepared than before? Definitely.

>> You are talking about martial artists who were unable to stand up for themselves in a fight, it is not because of the art, but because of themselves.
Without exception? If I open the Tang Tiger Monkey academy and have everyone dance for two hours a day is the problem with the art or the student?

>> Again, boxing is good, but you can't say it is better than martial arts.
Boxing is better than non-competition tested martial arts. If you disagree I can get a match between you and a boxer on vale tudo night :P

>>Another example : UFC 2 , Remco Pardool is a Judo black belt and knocked out (badly) Orlando Weit who was 7 times (I think it is 7) Thai Boxing World champ..

Judo, like boxing, is competition tested, westernised and specialised. Participants train against resisting opponents for the purpose of competition. It was a cool knockout, but as analogies go it's iffy. What's your definition of marital arts? (a sample list would do, don't wanna get philosophical.)

>>I think there is this misleading conception by some to believe that boxing is the real deal and martial arts are for movies.
If it aint tested in a realistic manner against a resisting opponent in competition it's only good for movies.

Drexl Spivey

Originally posted by geoffer
>>
>>I think there is this misleading conception by some to believe that boxing is the real deal and martial arts are for movies.
If it aint tested in a realistic manner against a resisting opponent in competition it's only good for movies.

Some people categorizes Boxing as contact and martial art non-contact.

I still think the problem is with the way you train not with the art. You emphasis the "contact" aspect, you can use contact in martial arts as well. One Kung Fu Wu Shu federation organises full contact championships without gloves.



Judo like boxing train you to resist against an opponent using the same rules, with a referee, and same weight category.


My definition of a martial art ? A system, a style, a school that teaches you some techniques and a way of fighting+training.

Karate, Kung Fu, Ju Jitsu, kick boxing, Muay Tai, Wrestling ...

As per the match between me and a Boxer ... That s only gonna show who s the fittest and who trains the most. The problem here is you compare 2 persons , and 2 styles, how is the result of such an issue gonna teach anything to others ?
If I use Karate and beat the boxer will you say Karate is better ? (or will you say such a result is not possible )

In a real fight situation (as per the thread), the 2 opponents are not going to stand 5 meters from each others waiting for the ref to say GO.
Talking about Vale Tudo : I saw a documentary about Ian Freeman The Machine, he was saying that originally he was a boxer but as a bouncer he realized this was not efficient for his work or real fights. That is how he came to brazilian ju jitsu and Vale Tudo.

==>I don't know if you can compare arts and styles, I think you have to train the best of your capacity in what works the best for you. That s why MMA exists (originally a pure JKD concept by the way)


I agree with you that it is a necessity to work against non-willing opponents / resisting force.

Kev

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.
Are you saying the problem with judo/boxing is refs, rules and weight classes and that Karate, Kung Fu, Ju Jitsu, kick boxing, Muay Tai, Wrestling don't have these problems.

what arts / training methods do you think are the best and what makes them better than others.

Drexl Spivey

Originally posted by Kev
I don't understand what point you are trying to make.
Are you saying the problem with judo/boxing is refs, rules and weight classes and that Karate, Kung Fu, Ju Jitsu, kick boxing, Muay Tai, Wrestling don't have these problems.

what arts / training methods do you think are the best and what makes them better than others.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is not possible to answer the question "which art is better". If there was an answer to this question all other arts would disappear.
When Krav Maga came, people said it was the better art, when Gracy won the UFC, it was BJJ ... So which is it ? ...

To answer the question which is better for self defense I would look at what close combat trainers teach in the army: close combat is based on health, a bit of karate, a bit of Judo, a bit of everything.

I am not saying the problem with Judo/boxing is that there is a ref + rules, what I am saying is that sport and competition may test your level in a way but it will not necessarely be a proof of efficiency.

What training I think is the best ? The best FOR ME as an ideal (I don t really have time and I don t know that many people so it s not realistic but ..) would be to train a lot with cardio and train with people from many styles. A bit like Tito Ortiz, he trains with the best in a few categories.

How about yourself, what would you answer to your own question, which is the best and why ?

Musashi

I think this is going off topic a little here, the guy was looking for advice on his particular situation.He's working in a Hostel and people are giving him hassle at times.He was looking for something easy to learn to help defend himself.A few years Karate,TKD,BJJ,KM et al will all help,even if he only does one of them!This is not going to help him immediately however,even if he could find good instructors local to him.
I just have a couple things I'd like to add here.

"It is a mistake to think that boxers are fighters. Boxing is a sport"

So are Judo and BJJ,Karate and TKD and most other "Martial Arts".

" there is one thing boxing is good for for sure, it is the physical training/conditioning"

Only one thing?It teachs hard and fast hand combinations,how to hit with power,decent blocks for upper body attacks, and an aggressive approach.It also conditions your body to taking hits and how to deal with having your bell rung and having to fight on.

"Boxing is better than non-competition tested martial arts"

I'd prefer to say a boxer is better than a non competition tested martial artist,though some guys are just natural fighters and any style they study is just a bonus.There again, I know a reasonably succesful amateur boxer who was a hopeless Karateka and TKD stylist.Some styles suit people better than others.

"the problem with Judo/boxing is that there is a ref + rules"

The problem with any sport is that it will try to be fair to those wishing to compete.Most sports will segregate competitors by experience/skill and weight,possibly also by age and rank.Road running has over 40's and even golf has a handicap system.Training with a compliant partner,and I've seen it in Aikido and Judo where the partner will"throw himself" rather than actually be thrown,gives you a false sense of what is possible in a "live" situation.Similarly,being asked to box or fight in any style against someone with no skills will teach you nothing.I always tried to find the guys a bit better than myself and come up to their level,then find the next guy up in skill level and train with him.This keeps you from just being a punch bag but allows you to push yourself and learn from your training partner.
In an actual fight your opponnent does not want to help you learn,he wants to hurt you,as much and as quickly as possible.It is your job to do this to him first!
Whatever style you've learnt you have to apply as fast and as hard as possible to give yourself space to get away or to neutralise the threat to yourself or others.
I feel the best style for self defense is whatever skill set you have obtained up to now, applied to the utmost of your ability,even if your a white belt beginner.If the only technique you know is a reverse punch just keep pounding it in anywhere you see an opening until the fight is over.You may be beaten,you might persuade your opponnent that you're to much bother,you may stun him enough to get out of there.
Whatever the outcome, it has to be better than being compliant in your own beating? For actual styles of SD,I like Carl Cestari,Hock Hocheim,Jim Grover/Kelly McCann,SouthNarc,W.E. Fairbairn,E.A. Sykes,Rex Applegate,D.M. "Paddy" O'Neill ,Geoff Thompson and Peter Consterdine among others.
Look them up, pick out the bits you like and blend them with what you already know.Also, if your a striker,try learning a little grappling and vise versa.What the other guy knows may beat you.....

Yours In Sport.

Cake Fiend

Originally posted by geoffer
[BIf I open the Tang Tiger Monkey academy and have everyone dance for two hours a day is the problem with the art or the student?[/B]

Heh, I think in that situation the problem lies with the student being too thick to figure out that he/she is not learning anything useful

Senor_Fudge

ive been doing shotokan karate for 11 years now this april and id just like to make a short comment about self defence
in my experience ive seen averagely fit black belts been beaten (in the club during full contact matches) when put up against fit boxer types who would tend to be more aggressive

if u ask me if u just want to protect urself on the street number 1
stay fit the survival of the fittest rule stands through, there is no real substitute for a superior level of fitness other than exceptional technique on the street.

if ur not interested in studying an art to its core its origins etc its philosophies then take up boxing for heavens sake (which could be broadly categorised as a martial art)

you'll get a superior level of fitness, a stature that will deter would be attackers and a one or 2 fight stopping ability should u possess any skill
all of these can be essential to make a difference as most fights are over fast

middle of the road then kickboxing....

what do ye think lads
just my 2 pesos

Drexl Spivey

If you want quick results, opt for Thai Boxing! You'll learn usefull technics and learn how to deliver.

It takes years of practise for some martial arts to be efficient.

I personnally consider Thai Boxing to be a martial art, and a good one.


(I like Shotokan which I've been practising myself for a while, but i have to admit I don't like the Katas part of it)

Senor_Fudge

id agrue though that the katas are an integral part of it and actually hone ur senses for attack from all directions at once

geoffer

Some people categorizes Boxing as contact and martial art non-contact.
What the hell is the point of non-contact fighting? It's like a waterless shower, or a tofu burger

I still think the problem is with the way you train not with the art.
I don't really buy the PC "everyone and everything is equal" waffle.
Capoeira: for religious reasons they didn't use their hands. For legal reasons they didn't use contact.
Karate: Couldn't legally train or meet with their instructors, had no equipment so had to train against air.
TKD: Designed to look good and be popular. Great results - getting thousands of Americans bowing at the Korean flag at that point in history is a hell of an acchievement.
Mixed Martial Arts: Devoted to winning low rules competitions. Likely to crosstrain, work against resisting opponents and keep in touch with developments in nutrition, strength training and sports psychology.
Aikido: learn how to fight in the same way as a terminally ill pacifist octogenerian.
You really think they're all equal?
You emphasis the "contact" aspect, you can use contact in martial arts as well. One Kung Fu Wu Shu federation organises full contact championships without gloves.
Good for them - sounds like they might be training properly.

As per the match between me and a Boxer, If I use Karate and beat the boxer will you say Karate is better ? (or will you say such a result is not possible)
Well, I'd definitely rethink my choice of boxers I'd need a bigger sample space to make that statement, but if it happened I'd be straight down the pyjama store and brushing up on katas like no-one's business.

Anyway, why not come down the club? (Meant in a non-threatening, friendly way ) First class is free and if you don't like it I'll refund your busfare. We can post 'til the cows come home but I reckon if you roll with us you'll understand.