UCD - What a nice place to be gay

Annasopra

http://usilgb.netsoc.tcd.ie/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=229#pid1073

Atreides

I find the posters for the cock society in trinity(o yea it does exist) far more offensive.

BuffyBot

"I do not appreciate you putting junk in my college mailbox. It is one thing to be a deviant. It is another to go around attempting to convince people that it is OK."

Ah, I'm sure the nurse will bring his hot milk and little pink pills soon

uberwolf

there were huge complaints about sexually suggestive posters in UCD earlier in the year. People didn't want hetrosexuality thrown in their faces. It oughn't be advertised overtly regardless of persuasion. Some people have gone overboard in response, but Islam holds the same everywhere - not just UCD. Staff members have every right not to advertise comfort things they may not be comfortable with and so long as no one has had complaint before (about a partic member of staff) then the proactive stance is unnessacary and obtrusive.

The email campaign seems to have demanded compliance which is unlikely to meet with success. Some peoples way of dealing with the issue is to pretend it doesn't exist. Perhaps reminding them isn't the best idea... if they are able to carry out their jobs without cause for complaint then why get in their face? And if there is cause for complaint about an individual there are ways to deal with it.

IMO

seamus

I think people just need to chill the fluck out.

If it's offensive, ignore it.

However I do have a problem with two things:- Posting flyers in mailboxes. People are entitled to their opinion, no matter how ignorant it may seem, and getting flyers in their mailboxes is equivalent to them posting anti-gay literature in the mailboxes.
Secondly, there's the "Gay firendly zone" stickers. For a start, they're pointless. Unless a student has openly told a lecturer that they're gay, then why would they assume they'd be treated any differently. It's also another form of self-discrimination that the gay community are guilty of. They tend to encourage gay segregation where it benefits them, and discourage it where it doesn't benefit them.
The stickers basically insinuate that gay students are worthy of special attention, and that lecturers who disaply them are willing to display that special attention, instead of treating all students equally, whether they be male, female, gay, hetero, Irish, English, Jewish, Islam. If the put up "gay-friendly" stickers, why shouldn't they put up stickers indicating their willingness to teach all other minority groups?

yellum

I kind of agree with Seamus here. I mean those stickers might as well say "I'm down with the fags" and there can be a sly implication that if you don't put up a sticker then you are a homophobe.

Gay people are meant to be looking for equality, this is not the same thing as having stickers up highlighting one aspect of someones identity.

If someone posted crap to my mailbox I'd be abusive too, you invade their personal space then expect to get abuse, and since it is their personal space be prepared to listen to their personal opinion.

uberwolf

I thought I was going to be slated for saying that, or at least get some response. Fair enuff, I think Seamus expressed somethings I didn't and Yellum as well. Wasn't sure if I was being unreasonable, apparently not...:)

Suzybie

These sticker campaigns have worked very well internationally. I also think the need for the sticker campaigns has been very well demonstrated by the reactions of the lecturers who objected.

In particular there is an insinuation that being lesbian gay or bisexual is solely about sexual expression - this is the ususal rubbish that is thrown at us in the form of homophobia. Same sex attraction and identity beings with it a myriad of issues that extend far beyond who you shag....

As a teaching assistant at 3rd level I more than realise that there is a need to let students know that they are in a safe zone - particularly if you are in a pastoral tutoring role. I challenege homophobia in my classes, and encourage my students to question where predujice comes from, I treat all students equally but also let lgbt students know that they should hold their heads up high and that I support them. This is not the case with all staff in my institution. While out in UCD last weekend I saw the remains of the posters torn to the ground - this is not something new and happened 10 years or more ago at least. I was sad to see that the same old crap was happening.

Mental health issues in 3rd level are huge as are bullying, drop out rates, suicide etc...add coming out issues to that and there is a huge problem in 3rd level that can't be ignored and we have to inform others and challenge the myths that still exist about out lives.

The view we should hide ourselves and not put our identity in other peoples faces is just playing their game of keeping us down and for me demonstrates internalised homophobia which is just as much a problem as the external sort.

Suzy

Originally posted by seamus
I think people just need to chill the fluck out.

If it's offensive, ignore it.

However I do have a problem with two things:- Posting flyers in mailboxes. People are entitled to their opinion, no matter how ignorant it may seem, and getting flyers in their mailboxes is equivalent to them posting anti-gay literature in the mailboxes.
Secondly, there's the "Gay firendly zone" stickers. For a start, they're pointless. Unless a student has openly told a lecturer that they're gay, then why would they assume they'd be treated any differently. It's also another form of self-discrimination that the gay community are guilty of. They tend to encourage gay segregation where it benefits them, and discourage it where it doesn't benefit them.
The stickers basically insinuate that gay students are worthy of special attention, and that lecturers who disaply them are willing to display that special attention, instead of treating all students equally, whether they be male, female, gay, hetero, Irish, English, Jewish, Islam. If the put up "gay-friendly" stickers, why shouldn't they put up stickers indicating their willingness to teach all other minority groups?

seamus

I agree Suzybie, but the problem is that gay students shouldn't need to be let known that they're accepted. The exact same way as African or Islam students don't need to be told this. The difference there is that it's obvious when someone is African or Islam. But gay people don't go around with "I'm gay" written on their forehead. So if other ethnic groups don't need to be told by a lecturer "I'm happy to teach you", why should gay students, when in fact, lecturers don't even have a reason to assume they're gay?

LGB students should strive for equality, not for special attention. Yes, they should be happy with who they are, and the life they lead, but that means that the rest of the world should treat them the same, not as a gay student. There is a huge difference between being accepting of someone because they're different and being accepting of someone because they're human. The line becomes blurred too often IMO.

[Edit:
As a side-issue, I'd think the posters being torn down was probably just a symptom of usual drunken student mentality, as opposed to a malicious campaign against the posters.
Most hetero men, regardless of how accepting they are, aren't exactly overjoyed by the image of two men kissing (makes us think too much of what it would be like.....*shudder*), then when some get drunk they tear down the posters. Nothing malicious, just something a drunken mind considers funny.

moridin

Originally posted by yellum
I kind of agree with Seamus here. I mean those stickers might as well say "I'm down with the fags" and there can be a sly implication that if you don't put up a sticker then you are a homophobe.

Gay people are meant to be looking for equality, this is not the same thing as having stickers up highlighting one aspect of someones identity.

If someone posted crap to my mailbox I'd be abusive too, you invade their personal space then expect to get abuse, and since it is their personal space be prepared to listen to their personal opinion.

You're right as far as I'm concerned, I've never agreed with the attitude of thrusting your sexuality in other peoples faces, regardless of what sexuality you may be. As I said to a friend the other day, I like to think that while being gay is part of me, it doesn't define me

In a separate e-mail, another member of staff Mr. T.J. Byrnes stated "I do not appreciate you putting junk in my college mailbox. It is one thing to be a deviant. It is another to go around attempting to convince people that it is OK."

I disagree with putting stuff in peoples personal mailbox, but he doesn't help his cause with the deviant comment.

A lecturer that is afraid of putting up a sticker outside of his/her office that indicates it is a safe space for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Transgender (LGBT) students, for fear of students making unwanted sexual advances, not only lacks an understanding of human sexuality but of the nature of sexual attraction.

I don't see any need for stickers. It's just segregation and smacks of possible favoritism. When I was in college I never thought that my sexuality was an issue on my course, and if you have a probem of a personal nature then you're a hell of a lot better off going to a staff councellor than a lecturer about it.

The problem with Rainbow week and the like is getting the balance right - promote but don't preach.

yellum

Originally posted by Suzybie


The view we should hide ourselves and not put our identity in other peoples faces is just playing their game of keeping us down

The opposite of hiding yourself is not being in someones face. There is a major difference between identifying who you are and forcefully pushing your sexuality on people. I never realised it was us against them either. Some people might want to keep us down but they are in the minority nowadays, albeit a vocal one. People don't care much about these issues nowadays

These sticker campaigns seem to have an attitude of "you're either with us or your not", which should not be the case. Would you be happy if someone asked the gay community to put up stickers saying "straight people are welcome in my place"

and for me demonstrates internalised homophobia which is just as much a problem as the external sort.

This is such an over-used buzzword at the moment. Gay people do suffer from internalised homophobia, but gay people who diagree with the sticker campaign should not be labeled as being this.

Suzybie

This is just released this morning and might assist the discussion further.

Suzy


The Union of Students in Ireland (USI) today launches the preliminary findings of our research programme on attitudes towards lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) students. The quantitative part of this research is now complete, and was conducted in 15 colleges across the island of Ireland.

The survey offers a number of fascinating insights into the behaviour and attitudes of the general student population in Ireland towards sexuality.

USI Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Rights Officer, Tadhg O'Brien said: "Though attitudes have changed towards LGB people in recent years, it is saddening to discover that homophobia is still rife in the education system. Half of all male students have had homophobic language directed at them, and a staggering three-quarters of gay and bisexual men have been subjected to verbal homophobic abuse. Though 79% of students indicated they would react positively to their best friend telling them that they are gay, surprisingly this trend is reversed when students were asked how they would respond to the discovery that one of their siblings was LGB with 6 out of 10 reacting negatively. 70% of students said they think society is homophobic. Clearly much work remains to be done to combat bigotry in society as a whole.

USI President, Will Priestley said: "Though one in ten students identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual, LGB issues are important for the wider population as well. Sexual health awareness in relation to same-sex relationships are not just an issue for LGB students. 18% of all students have had a sexual experience with a person of the same sex, half of whom identify as heterosexual. USI has been at the forefront of inclusive sexual health awareness campaigns. It's unacceptable that LGB issues are not addressed in the education system prior to third level. The fact that this is the first major investigation into the attitudes towards LGB people in Ireland clearly shows that more research needs to be done in the context of society as a whole. While LGB students continue to be the subject of bigotry on a daily basis, I can only hope that these statistics will prove to be a springboard to wider acceptance and understanding in colleges and beyond."

ronano

I rather not have any sexual suggestive posters from any corner to be honest.You can hardly blame the students that follow islam for the opinion.

ixoy

Originally posted by yellum
The opposite of hiding yourself is not being in someones face. There is a major difference between identifying who you are and forcefully pushing your sexuality on people. I never realised it was us against them either. Some people might want to keep us down but they are in the minority nowadays, albeit a vocal one. People don't care much about these issues nowadays

Precisely, they don't generally give a damn in my experience. That's been my experience when telling friends.

There is a definite "us against them" vibe off of some gay people. It's often from those whose whole revolves around being gay, who let every thing they do tell everyone they're gay. Who make sure they exclusively only have gay friends as well...

The general thrust of what should be done is integration. Using aggressive "in your face" campaigns is more off putting, more highlighting the differences and focusing on them. It'd be far more educational to take a more passive approach rather than this sometimes rabid one.

I'm gay, but I'm also a hell of a lot of other things.

Atreides

First off do none of you think your sexuality is nobody elses buisness but your own and your loved ones? Personally thats how I feel about mine, and thats how I generaly feel about others as well. Imagine your nervious about coming out, and all the LGB officers can tell you is here hang this banner around your neck and shout as loud as you can. Thirdly this whole gay friendly area, what the hell is that all about, I come from an area of dublin where a man was shot dead walkign through a park because they thought he might be gay,

Syth

At the start of the year the B&L Society (one of the biggies) had posters with Madonna and Britney kissing as an advertisment to join their society. They were A3 full colour posters, as opposed to the black and white A4 Rainbow week posters. No complaints were made about that. (or if they were the complaints weren't half as vocal). That point was made in the Editorial of the latest issue of The Observer.

While out in UCD last weekend I saw the remains of the posters torn to the ground

That happens all the time with lots of posters.

there were huge complaints about sexually suggestive posters in UCD earlier in the year

One of the arguments they used was that some women were offended by the posters, so they should not be used. But some people were offended by the Rainbow week posters as well, so you'd think the campaign that wanted to stop the sexually explicit posters, would try to stop the Rainbow week posters. Unlikely since (to the best of my knowledge) the person who started the campaign, the SU Women's officer is also the LGBSoc Auditor. Can't have it both ways.

swiss

To a certain extent, I agree with seamus and yellum. Gay people seem to have the uncanny ability to herd themselves into a neat little minority group, and sometimes like to stay that way, perhaps to make themselves seem to fight for some non-existant right of being more vocal/visible than other members of society. As ixoy, I might be gay, but I am a lot of other things. Well, okay, maybe not a whole lot of other things, but I'm sure there are a few other things that I do that are not gay, dammit! >_<

If someone handed me a sticker that encouraged a space as being 'gay friendly' or whatever, I don't think I would put that sticker up. Doing so would seem to imply that anywhere that doesn't have such a sticker is in fact a ground for homophobia and anti-gay sentiment. This is clearly ludicrous. Do gay people put up such stickers in their bedrooms? In gay bars/nightclubs? It's implicit.

For me, equality is exactly that, being on an equal footing with other groups. That includes other people not giving a damn about you or what you do. When did anyone demand special recognition for taxi-drivers, for teachers, for over 60's, for children?These are all arguably minority groups too. Demanding special recognition and attention is about as far from being equal as one can get. Hence I see a lot of this campaign as simply attention seeking.

That said however, there is a lot of merit in raising gay awareness and raising the general level of knowledge and information people have about gay culture. Doing so will, IMO help to foster a greater level of tolerance and acceptance that is ostensibly the goal of these poster/sticker campaigns. While such campaigns undoubtedly do fulfil such a goal, I feel that they are simply going a step too far.

Woden

Originally posted by Syth
At the start of the year the B&L Society (one of the biggies) had posters with Madonna and Britney kissing as an advertisment to join their society. They were A3 full colour posters, as opposed to the black and white A4 Rainbow week posters. No complaints were made about that. (or if they were the complaints weren't half as vocal). That point was made in the Editorial of the latest issue of The Observer.

that was the stockbrokers and secretaries night i think , the posters where replaced with ones of judge judy or something iirc. sex is used as a selling point on so many posters in ucd though that its not even funny, i don't think any of them really offend me though tbh.

data

boomdogman

Looks to me like a manufactured controversy. Go fight the battles that matter, not the ones that don't.

boomdogman

tho as to the Auditor of the Islamic society, i find that a disgusting orginisatioin promoting a vile, ignorant, violent, stupid, cruel and evil belief system which adovcates murder, mutilation and slavery. Of course because they call this twisted, perverted belief system a religion i'm supposed to think that this is ok. I don't.

seamus

Originally posted by boomdogman
tho as to the Auditor of the Islamic society, i find that a disgusting orginisatioin promoting a vile, ignorant, violent, stupid, cruel and evil belief system which adovcates murder, mutilation and slavery. Of course because they call this twisted, perverted belief system a religion i'm supposed to think that this is ok. I don't.

Let's not confuse a religion based on prayer and goodwill with the acts of a few brainwashed members of fringe lunatic groups shall we? Let's not forget that there have been far more atrocities in the name of Jesus.

BuffyBot

Of course because they call this twisted, perverted belief system a religion i'm supposed to think that this is ok. I don't.

What planet are you on exactly? As Seamus said, you are tarring the many, many devout and peaceful followers of Islam with the acts of a few, fringe people. In a thread about lack tolerance, this certainly take the biscuit.

uberwolf

further to the original post, this weeks UCD tribune reports that the LGB is seeking censures for those members of staff "over comments they made criticising the LGB ... sticker campaign"

further wisdom in the article quotes Tadhg o'Brien USI LGB chap.

"If they think that students....will develop a sudden incontrollable lust for a member of staff who indicates he is not bigoted...are in urgent need of some equality training"

no without insight into exactly what was said, it is worth bearing in mind that these staff's opinions were goaded out of them when they were approached regarding the entire thing. That no cause for complaint existed previously. Equality means getting treated the same as everyone else. This kind of action will leave LGB students being handled with kiddy gloves IMO, which isn't exactly equality. Persuing this matter only raises hackles and is misguided.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Suzybie
These sticker campaigns have worked very well internationally. I also think the need for the sticker campaigns has been very well demonstrated by the reactions of the lecturers who objected.

This makes me laugh. Two lecturers have been documented as objecting. One, was well out of order and more than anything else he's been shown up as a bigot nationally. I'm sure he's a credit to his family.

The second one says he's not entirely sure its a professional thing to have the sticker up. He prefers if race, religion, creed (and I assume sexuality) are left at the door when he's dealing with students. Why is this a bad thing? Why is he a homophobe for this? I saw the e-mail and I saw what was printed and talk about twisting things to their own advantage to cause a storm. I think the crowd who leaked the details on that second lecturer are a disgrace as the man had to publically defend himself against accusations of homophobia in the national press.

For shame

Originally posted by Suzybie
In particular there is an insinuation that being lesbian gay or bisexual is solely about sexual expression - this is the ususal rubbish that is thrown at us in the form of homophobia. Same sex attraction and identity beings with it a myriad of issues that extend far beyond who you shag....

Who gives a damn? This is about dealing with people professionally at 3rd level education. The issue was whether staff put these stickers on their door. Thats what this was all about. The LGB society seemed to take a stance that anyone who didnt comply were homophobes. Anyone who objected were teh devil. Some tolerance. This "you are with us or againts us" attitude is hardly the way to gain acceptance. In that respect I think the LGB UCD campaign did themselves more damage than good.

Originally posted by Suzybie
As a teaching assistant at 3rd level I more than realise that there is a need to let students know that they are in a safe zone

I think thats very unprofessional.
I think students should be treated professionally as students. This isn't school. If there are difficulties there are a number of avenues to go down. Lecturers aren't teachers. Of course everyone will listen to individual issues and have on on one meetings with students but why create a "safe zone" for one distinct group? Racism is just as rife in Ireland. Should there be "All races welcomed" stickers too? Why not just treat everyone equally?

Originally posted by Suzybie
Mental health issues in 3rd level are huge as are bullying, drop out rates, suicide etc...add coming out issues to that and there is a huge problem in 3rd level that can't be ignored and we have to inform others and challenge the myths that still exist about out lives.

Again, their are services and officers in place to deal with these issues and those at fault when they occur. Perhaps a better thing would be to raise awareness about these procedures? Its not a lecturers job or position to deal with any person or group at a personal level in these regards.

Originally posted by Suzybie
The view we should hide ourselves and not put our identity in other peoples faces is just playing their game of keeping us down and for me demonstrates internalised homophobia which is just as much a problem as the external sort.

No, the view is you shouldn't look for special treatment. Yellum and SEamus have made very good points on this matter (although they may not agree with mine, so I'm not associating myself with them). Awareness campaigns are a good thing, forcing yourself on people is not. Its hard to achieve acceptance and integration into a society, group or family when you single yourself out as special.

GuanYin

Originally posted by uberwolf

further wisdom in the article quotes Tadhg o'Brien USI LGB chap.

"If they think that students....will develop a sudden incontrollable lust for a member of staff who indicates he is not bigoted...are in urgent need of some equality training"

Thats not what Dr. Brayden said at all.

This is the most shameful display of media twisting and it a sick and grotesque way to try and get support for a campaign. I think those responsible are a disgrace.

ixoy

Originally posted by syke
Awareness campaigns are a good thing, forcing yourself on people is not. Its hard to achieve acceptance and integration into a society, group or family when you single yourself out as special.

I agree, as do many other gay men I know. I long for the day when I could go with a boyfriend to any old pub - not a segregated instance as currently - and not have anyone bat an eyelid because the difference won't mean anything to them.

As to the lecturer in question - I believe the Irish Times, in its Weekend supplement, was fair to him. They printed out pretty much what he said, and it seemed clear - from the article - that he merely objected to any particular group - ethnic/sexual/whatever - using heavy handed tactics. Which is fine. It was only the second bigoted lecturer who should ever have had to defend his views.

Atreides

Originally posted by boomdogman
tho as to the Auditor of the Islamic society, i find that a disgusting orginisatioin promoting a vile, ignorant, violent, stupid, cruel and evil belief system which adovcates murder, mutilation and slavery. Of course because they call this twisted, perverted belief system a religion i'm supposed to think that this is ok. I don't.

Thats one view on Islam, which is a shared view by many religions.

daveydub

I don't think it's right that people should be so cynical about the campaign's in Universities and Colleges. The coming out week in UCD is designed to create awareness among staff and students of all creeds and backgrounds, about the issues relating to LGBT students.

The sticker campaign promoting 'positive space' was only one part of awareness and was taken up well by a majoirty of the teaching staff. It was the ignorant few who chose to mouth off their disgust and in doing so the teaching staff concerned face disciplinary procedures for breaking the Universities code on Dignity and Respect.

What seems to have been missed out on here were the comments made by members of the Islamic Soc. What I cannot abide is when other minority groupings such as the UCD Islamic Soc. mouth off about how things go against there religion and beliefs! Do I really care? I let them live in my country and worship and practice whatever they wish, wherever they wish as long as it does not harm anyone else or break the law. And yet their Auditor went around urging people not to vote for a Homosexual candidate in our Sabbatical elections?? You can be damn sure I wouldn't be allowed to go around telling people not to vote for Blacks or muslims.. I'd be told off for being racist. I feel that if the Auditor of the Islamic Soc. and his fellow members, have issues with living in a liberal, western democracy then perhaps he may be more suited to living in a State that embodies some of the regressive teachings of Islam.

There is no place for cynicism in equality, the LGB students were trying to promote awareness and equality and what was mostly a positive campaign was slightly sidelined by a few bigots.

Atreides

Originally posted by daveydub
I don't think it's right that people should be so cynical about the campaign's in Universities and Colleges. The coming out week in UCD is designed to create awareness among staff and students of all creeds and backgrounds, about the issues relating to LGBT students.

The sticker campaign promoting 'positive space' was only one part of awareness and was taken up well by a majoirty of the teaching staff. It was the ignorant few who chose to mouth off their disgust and in doing so the teaching staff concerned face disciplinary procedures for breaking the Universities code on Dignity and Respect.

What seems to have been missed out on here were the comments made by members of the Islamic Soc. What I cannot abide is when other minority groupings such as the UCD Islamic Soc. mouth off about how things go against there religion and beliefs! Do I really care? I let them live in my country and worship and practice whatever they wish, wherever they wish as long as it does not harm anyone else or break the law. And yet their Auditor went around urging people not to vote for a Homosexual candidate in our Sabbatical elections?? You can be damn sure I wouldn't be allowed to go around telling people not to vote for Blacks or muslims.. I'd be told off for being racist. I feel that if the Auditor of the Islamic Soc. and his fellow members, have issues with living in a liberal, western democracy then perhaps he may be more suited to living in a State that embodies some of the regressive teachings of Islam.

There is no place for cynicism in equality, the LGB students were trying to promote awareness and equality and what was mostly a positive campaign was slightly sidelined by a few bigots.

Sounds to me that some people didn't agree with you, voiced an opinion after being backed into a yea or nay situation, and now you saying they will be punished for it. If you don't want people to disagree with you don't ask their opinion. The notion that they may have rejected your idea's due to its stupidity never crossed your mind, rather it must have been that they are bigoted and to blind to see the real truth, your truth. Is it so hard to believe that people don't give a fuk if your gay, that's true equality, when people start treating you with the same level of contempt as they would anybody else.

btw What the hell is a coming out week, do you run up to random people and get into their face about your sexuality?

as for the Islamic Soc. they maybe homophobes, but you sir are small minded. It's not your country to allow anything, they are initialed to hate you, So am I, so is anyone else, They are not initialed to act on that however.

Suzybie

This discussion is now clearly in breach of the charter listed for this board. Racisim, religious intolerance never mind the homophobia and a troll or 3 in for good measure...Moderators your opinions please?

GuanYin

Originally posted by Suzybie
This discussion is now clearly in breach of the charter listed for this board. Racisim, religious intolerance never mind the homophobia and a troll or 3 in for good measure...Moderators your opinions please?

What?

Oh dear god, people here have been civil for the most part, perhaps a few rash comments about the islamic society.

Is it so hard to believe that people don't give a fuk if your gay, that's true equality, when people start treating you with the same level of contempt as they would anybody else.

Its a bit brash, but it sums it up really. Why does a lecturer need to make you feel comfortable being gay? Should he make every non-"white heterosexual middle class" person feel at ease too? Or do people feel it is only gay people that need to be reassured? Do you really think that the Dr. Brayden guy deserves to be up there with the actual bigot? If people actually read what he mailed they'd see that all but the last line was spot on, and the last line was perhaps naive more than biggoted.

I saw one message board with both their contact details posted up together.... I really think some people get a bandwagon and leap

swiss

This discussion is now clearly in breach of the charter listed for this board. Racisim, religious intolerance never mind the homophobia and a troll or 3 in for good measure...Moderators your opinions please?

Actually, for the most part this conversation has been civil and troll free. I'm not exactly thrilled about Skanger calling daveydub a small minded bigot, but I don't really think it's necessary to divert the course of the thread by just railing on that point. Religious intolerance and homophobia are facts of life. Not dealing with them would be an even greater injustice.

As for the Islamic society, yes their religion dictates that gays are immoral/evil/whatever. I don't particularly care whether they think I'm the spawn of the devil or not. They can hope and pray for my damnation, and they'll probably get their wish too, but as long as they uphold my constitutional protections and freedoms to engage in whatever lifestyle I want, I would not rail against their ethos. Doing so would make me a hypocrite, since I would merely be condemning their intolerance and replacing it with my own.

GuanYin

Originally posted by swiss
Actually, for the most part this conversation has been civil and troll free.

At the risk of trolling :rolleyes:, I would like to hear suzybie's opinions on mine and other responses. Do you not think the LGB may have acted inappropriately in its actions towards one of the lecturers.

The message I get from LGB in UCD is "conform or be labelled", which is kinda ironic.

boomdogman

Religious intolerance?
I gave a very fair, honest list of some of the vile practises which the peace loving Islamic citizens find acceptable according to the religious laws they espouse. Try reading the Koran some time or better still some of the tracts from the London mosques. I never mentioned the tendency of vast swathes of the public in Islamic countries to support the slaughter of innocents in suacide bombings tho I might have done. As an athiest I have no brief to defend christianity but as a gay man I'm damm glad I was born in a country whose laws and customs relect some of the better elements of its Christian past. Those laws include a level of religious freedom denied in ALL countries where Islam is the majority faith.

I find the "liberal" tolerance of intolerance despicable.

boomdogman

And thanks for the biscuit!

BuffyBot

I gave a very fair, honest list of some of the vile practises which the peace loving Islamic citizens find acceptable according to the religious laws they espouse.

No, you gave a biased and somewhat objectionable view of a faith you only seem to understand from what you have read in the media.

swiss

Religious intolerance?

I wasn't commenting on your post specifically (although I can see why you would think so). Regarding that post, you have a right to your opinions and to an extent I agree with them. I have no problem with the concept of the Islamic faith or it's adherents. What I would have a problem with is the element within Islam that demands that it replace all other ways of life. I would also fight ardently to keep the freedoms of religious thought and expression (or lack thereof) should they be besieged by any ethos. However I do believe you are labelling Islam unfairly based on a few of it's more questionable (IMO) tenets. If we were to look at Christianity in the same light we would see that it is based on torture and murder (of Jesus Christ), on sacrifice (the martyrs) and abstainance. Islam also contains worthy ideals, as do many world religions.

Not that it matters, I'm an atheist. But that's irrelevant to the topic in hand, which is the UCD sticker campaign and the controversy it has generated. Let's get back to that.

The message I get from LGB in UCD is "conform or be labelled", which is kinda ironic.

I don't know enough about the LGB society in UCD, but I would find this a very questionable policy at best. I think that one of the biggest challenges facing gay people is trying to escape the stereotypes that they have built for themselves. If an LGB society condemns those that do not conform to the view that gay is great, then in a manner they are as guilty of intolerance as those who would use the same kind of dogma, except this time from the opposing side.

Atreides

Originally posted by boomdogman
Religious intolerance?
I gave a very fair, honest list of some of the vile practises which the peace loving Islamic citizens find acceptable according to the religious laws they espouse. Try reading the Koran some time or better still some of the tracts from the London mosques. I never mentioned the tendency of vast swathes of the public in Islamic countries to support the slaughter of innocents in suacide bombings tho I might have done. As an athiest I have no brief to defend christianity but as a gay man I'm damm glad I was born in a country whose laws and customs relect some of the better elements of its Christian past. Those laws include a level of religious freedom denied in ALL countries where Islam is the majority faith.

I find the "liberal" tolerance of intolerance despicable.

Actually the Koran like any other religious book of that nature are open to interpretation. Have you tried reading the bible of late? or some of the catholic doctrine on this matter. If we can be Catholics despite the hard-line position of our religion on this subject, why can't followers of Islam do the same. As for my comments about your man being a bigot, Not a troll as I do believe he is, but I'll remove them anyway.

daveydub

I believe "Skanger" is free to say as he wishes, just as everyone has that right. But what is not right is for people to cross from the line of free speech into inciting hatred.

Academic staff who describe homosexuality and bisexuality as “deviant” send a message to the wider college population that homophobia is an acceptable form of discrimination, and give legitimacy to those who would victimise other staff and students through homophobic bullying, physical attacks and death threats.

Equally disturbing is the reaction of the UCD Islamic society. Muslim students should know better, as a minority group that are often the victims of racist abuse, than to promote bigotry and discrimination on our campus. While we must all respect the religious beliefs of others (or lack thereof), it is unacceptable to legitimise homophobia against LGBT students on religious grounds. No one religious ideology should be enforced on the general population, nor is it rational to claim such views based on religious dogma represent the majority of students.

For those people who are not lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered, it is easy for them not to see the sensitivities surrounding other peoples sexuality and the sheer fear some people experience about their sexuality and how it impacts on themselves, their families and friends, etc. 'Coming out week' is designed to promote awareness and equality among staff and students, perhaps my learned friend skanger is oblivious to this and maybe he didn't have this experience at third-level. Universities are generally regarded as places that foster open-mindedness and it's worrying when people have contempt for other peoples practices.

As I've said before I accomadate many people living in this country and hold no objections or grudges against them. There are two sides to the coin, and while I make every effort to accept ethnic minorities and other groupings they can return the favour by accepting me and my sexuality.

GuanYin

Originally posted by daveydub
Academic staff who describe homosexuality and bisexuality as “deviant” send a message to the wider college population that homophobia is an acceptable form of discrimination, and give legitimacy to those who would victimise other staff and students through homophobic bullying, physical attacks and death threats.

I agree. However, and this is where LGB lose all my support.... the second lecturer was quoted as saying that

ihat the sticker campaign could "encourage unwanted advances from students".

This is what the LGB and University paper had released and published. It transpired that what he actually said was:

It is inappropriate to place any stickers in relation to race, gender or creed in the offices of staff. The positive space sticker on the office of an academic staff member could cause real problems as it is very ambiguous as to what it is advocating and is to do with sexual orientation. We have to meet students on a one-to-one basis many times and have to be very careful not to say or do anything in relation to sexuality that could be misconstrued by students in the 'Dignity and Respect' policy. The sticker could be interpreted that the office was a place for sexual expression and might inadvertently encourage unwanted advances from students

Now everything he said bar what I have put in bold is spot on imho, and the last line is nothing more than naivity if you ask me. However, LGB purposefully tried to paint him as a homophobe and catagorise him with the other lecturer. The guy has been in twopapers defending himself and has had his details posted on BBS so people can mail him about it.

To what purpose did the LGB make a move like this? Did the feel so undermined as to make this man a scapegoat? How can a society, that is there to promote acceptance really hang a man out over the views expressed above? Its just plain wrong.

They have even called his employers to discipline him. Byrne deserves it, he hung himself, why did they want to have a go at the other guy?

Originally posted by daveydub
No one religious ideology should be enforced on the general population, nor is it rational to claim such views based on religious dogma represent the majority of students.

Surely that should be no ideology full stop! The Islamic society were out of order, but I think the general bigotry in their statement is second to trying to ruin amans career.

Originally posted by daveydub
For those people who are not lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered, it is easy for them not to see the sensitivities surrounding other peoples sexuality and the sheer fear some people experience about their sexuality and how it impacts on themselves, their families and friends, etc. 'Coming out week' is designed to promote awareness and equality among staff and students, perhaps my learned friend skanger is oblivious to this and maybe he didn't have this experience at third-level. Universities are generally regarded as places that foster open-mindedness and it's worrying when people have contempt for other peoples practices. .

To the casual observer UCD's coming out week seems to be a self serving publicity stunt by a bunch of people who have forsaken the morals they were entrusted with by the people they claim to represent.

uberwolf

Originally posted by daveydub

Academic staff who describe homosexuality and bisexuality as “deviant” send a message to the wider college population that homophobia is an acceptable form of discrimination, and give legitimacy to those who would victimise other staff and students through homophobic bullying, physical attacks and death threats.

Whilst this is an unreasonable opinion to voice, and certainly naive to to voice it to whom he did, the man was harassed to a certain extent. For his support to be demanded and his workspace (email) to be invaded is inciting him. In this context he may have snapped and privately responded. He didn't broadcast a message as has been said. He was hardly legimatising homophobia to an audience. Look at who his audience were!!! He shouldn't have said it, but is he any less entitled to his opinion than you are to your sexuality? and if there was never any question over his treatment of LGB before - which I take to mean he's professional enough to get on with it and deal, despite his opinions - should he now be removed? and does his treatment make the other staff feel? are LGB students going to be treated equally now? or extra equally? is that real equality?

seamus

As uberwolf says.

While his opinion is unreasonable and not acceptable in the wider arena, it's still his opinion, and he's entitled to it. When (in his eyes) it's attacked, he also has the right to affirm his belief to whomever will listen. The Islamic society don't run around the University posting anti-gay literature in people's mailboxes and encouraging people to put up stickers indicating that their offices aren't gay friendly. If they did, the LGB society would be up in arms, and youd be damn sure they'd try and make their voices heard. Why shouldn't the Islamic society be allowed do the same thing when the LGB does precisely the polar opposite of the above?
Just because it's not popular these days to discourage homosexuality, that doesn't necessarily make it wrong. Nor does it necessarily make it right to encourage it.

The University Observer is a rag, let's get that clear now. It's not fit to use as toilet paper. They try to make big deals out of things that don't really matter and deliberately misquote people to serve their own purposes.

uberwolf

Originally posted by seamus


The University Observer is a rag, let's get that clear now. It's not fit to use as toilet paper. They try to make big deals out of things that don't really matter and deliberately misquote people to serve their own purposes.

the other thing to bear in mind though is they haven't the resources to research a story thoroughly and are always happy when one is provided for them, anyone with an agenda can spoon feed them a front page story.

daveydub

I am unaware of any plan or action to have Dr. Brayden removed from his position, I think people have been more offended by the remarks made by Mr. T.J. Byrnes and the UCD Islamic Soc.

Dr. Bryaden it would appear identified a genuine concern he had relating to the posting of stickers in his workplace. That's fair enough.
But Mr. Byrnes cannot be allowed to continue in a position where he believes some of his students are "deviants". What he was reported to have said does breach the Universities code on Dignity and Respect, and it is only just that he is reprimanded for his actions. All students and staff at UCD are bound by this policy.

The "Coming out week" in UCD was not about throwing their sexualities in peoples faces, and I have no idea why people are construing it as such. The men shown on the posters around the campus were not even kissing! Posters of two women kissing were displayed last semester all over campus, and there was no show of concern from the Islamic Soc. then??

What I believe angers the LGBT students of UCD is the lack of equality shown for them. A fuss is not kicked up when posters are displayed with a man and a woman or even a woman and a woman for that matter. Why are people so offended when it's two men -> and they're not even kissing!!

uberwolf

why was there a poster of two men kissing? or about to kiss or just being close?

daveydub

On what qualifications do you uberwolf and seamus make your judgement about the University Observer? Yes it is a voluntary student paper, but I think it serves as much a purpose then The Irish Sun, The Mirror and the like.

Why were there posters of men? Because for narrow minded people that is the easiest thing for them to identify as being gay or in there eyes queer.
Whatever was on the posters is irrelevant, what angers some students is the inequality shown to them by students and staff.

seamus

Originally posted by daveydub
But Mr. Byrnes cannot be allowed to continue in a position where he believes some of his students are "deviants". What he was reported to have said does breach the Universities code on Dignity and Respect,

No it doesn't.

UCD Staff Manual Section 5.2 Dignity and Respect Policy, November 2001i
UNIVERSITY COLLEGE DUBLIN POLICY ON HARASSMENT, INCLUDING BULLYING,
SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND RACISM
POLICY
University College Dublin is committed to the promotion of an environment for work and study which upholds the dignity and respect of the individual and which supports every individual’s right to study and/or work in an environment which is free of any form of harassment, intimidation or bullying.
The University recognises the right of every individual to such an environment and requires all members of the University community to recognise their responsibilities in this regard. Harassment of others by members of the University community - staff or students - will not be tolerated.

Which basically means that anyone can say whatever they like so long as what they say isn't directed at any one person, or so long as it isn't a form of harrasment, bullying or intimidation. Claiming homosexuality is "deviant" is none of these things. The sexual orientation of his students is neither any of his business or relvant to his role as a lecturer. So long as he doesn't use it as factor in carrying out his role as a university lecturer, he's allowed hold whatever beliefs he likes about them.

Whatever was on the posters is irrelevant, what angers some students is the inequality shown to them by students and staff.

Where has this inequality been shown? No students are being treated any differently by the lecturers who have voiced their opinions, that is they are being treated equally. There is a huge difference between having an opinion about someone, and treating them differently based on that opinion. The latter is prejudice, the former is not.

uberwolf

Originally posted by daveydub
On what qualifications do you uberwolf and seamus make your judgement about the University Observer? Yes it is a voluntary student paper, but I think it serves as much a purpose then The Irish Sun, The Mirror and the like.

Having read both college papers for four years, contributed pieces to both, been interviwed by both I'm guessing better qualified than you and I'm certainly not talking through my arse. I'm not being harsh on them, In fact I'm trying to defend it, I don't mind either paper, just believe that they are easy enough to manipulate by someone with an angle.

Originally posted by daveydub

Why were there posters of men? Because for narrow minded people that is the easiest thing for them to identify as being gay or in there eyes queer.
Whatever was on the posters is irrelevant, what angers some students is the inequality shown to them by students and staff.

you've contradicted yourself there IMO, I believe it was to get attention, just as the posters of women kissing where. And they were complained about as well and the societies involved censured afaik. If they were looking for attention, unarguably their intention then there were always going to be complaints - no more than the other posters you mention. People complained about the other posters because they were insulting and "objectifying women" to assume that people are bigots because they objected to the same material with different genders is unreasonable and in fact only serves to highlight the difference between straight and gay - defeating the purpose of any equality movement.


As for the Islam society they are out of order. I can accept their religion forbids it, but in this country you play by local rules - deal or get out TBH. Like when a group of muslim women attacked that gay muslim on de nortsoide a yr or 2 ago. I don't care if that swing s in ur place don't come here and do it. Its assault.

GuanYin

Originally posted by uberwolf
For his support to be demanded and his workspace (email) to be invaded is inciting him.

It was actually physical post. It came addressed in an umarked envelope.

Originally posted by seamus
The University Observer is a rag, let's get that clear now. It's not fit to use as toilet paper

Originally posted by uberwolf
the other thing to bear in mind though is they haven't the resources to research a story thoroughly and are always happy when one is provided for them, anyone with an agenda can spoon feed them a front page story.

But who forwarded the e-mails to the observer and the college tribune and the Irish times and the independant for that matter? It the first two cases it was the LGB soc.
So why would they have forwarded both those mails? Why not just one? Did they really forward one mail saying "look at this well constructed argument" or did they do it maliciously? What do you think?

Originally posted by daveydub
I am unaware of any plan or action to have Dr. Brayden removed from his position, I think people have been more offended by the remarks made by Mr. T.J. Byrnes and the UCD Islamic Soc.

Dr. Brayden it would appear identified a genuine concern he had relating to the posting of stickers in his workplace. That's fair enough.

If the LGB view it as a fair point why did they forward his e-mail to the college papers? Was this not a very poor action on LGB's part? And LGB officers and SU called for Brayden to be disciplined. If you are a part of either society you should know that. but thats not the point, the man had to defend him self in public, nationally from being branded a homophobe over that passage. An, whatever way you paint it, the ultimate responsability for that lies with LGB

Originally posted by daveydub
The "Coming out week" in UCD was not about throwing their sexualities in peoples faces, and I have no idea why people are construing it as such

BEcause the subsequent actions and way that people who have disagreed with LGB have been immediately branded as hoophobes without even listening to the points makes it seem that way.

It even happened here. Check out suzybie calling me and others trolls and asking for the thread to be shut down. She didn't even try argue a point.

People are allowed have opinions in life and even express them, so long as they do it civilly (or at least thats how it should work). LGB seem to have missed this. Isn't it all about choice? Why were people not allowed choose whether to support the campaign without being attacked?

daveydub

"It is one thing to be a deviant. It is another to go around attempting to convince people that it is OK."

It is obvious from this that Mr. Byrnes believes LBGT people are abnormal. And there would be a gross conflict of interests if he were to allow his opinions interfere with his responsibilities as a member of the teaching staff. He may not have directed his remarks at one person in particular, instead he chose to direct them at an entire group who happen to be a minority.
Which is why students are calling for an investigation into his remarks and also his ability to be an indenpendent, responsible figure.

daveydub

I am not a member of UCD LGB Soc. nor do I speak for or on behalf of them.