Smoking ban to start on March 29

Sparks

Just seen on BreakingNews.ie, the date's been announced for the start of the ban.

Villain

Just say that myslef on Unison.

Let the fun begin!!

gazzer

Does anyone on the boards work in a bar?? if so do you think it will be enforceable. I smoke but i wont mind going outside if i have to and any of my friends who smoke feel the same way.. i mean if its the law its the law. Do the health inspectors who will be policing this have set hours of work. i.e is it a 9 to 5 thing or could we be seeing them coming into a night club at 2.30 am??

Villain

I worked in one for 8 and a half years, and I don't think it will be enforceable with the policing measures that are in place

ixoy

The majority of people will obey it because they understand the concept of laws and being a citizen of the state that is upholding those laws. There will be, as ever, those who flaunt it and I can't see enough measures to deal with them. However, they will be in their minority and - in general - the air shall be cleaner for us. A good thing.

ReefBreak

To be completely blunt about it: Most people will obey it, skangers won't.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
To be completely blunt about it: Most people will obey it, skangers won't.

You calling 70-80 year olds who's only joy in life is a fag and a pint a Skanger?:rolleyes:

Zombrex

Originally posted by ReefBreak
To be completely blunt about it: Most people will obey it, skangers won't.

sad but true ... just like on Dublin Bus, it is only the little (or big) skangers down the back of the bus puffing away, thinking they are sh*t hot

BuffyBot

in general - the air shall be cleaner for us.

Not by much in the greater scheme of things when you consider all the other crap your general lungful of "fresh" air contains.

emertoff

I welcome it completely. This notion that it is anti-social is absurd. A good day for the country.

star gazer

Kudos to the Minister, it was a tough job trying to get it this far, however some of the most difficult parts of this are yet to come. March 29th will need to be the date it at least nominally come in, otherwise in all likelyhood he will lose credibility if it keeps getting put off. In a lot of ways this issue is going to make or break Michael martins tenure in health. If he doesn't achieve this and gets reshuffled in the Summer people will ask, what did he achieve?

Hobbes

Originally posted by irish1
I worked in one for 8 and a half years, and I don't think it will be enforceable with the policing measures that are in place

If they can stop people from bringing thier own cheap drink in and serving it to themselves they can stop the smokers from smoking inside the building.

Especially if it means they get whacked for a fine.

Villain

Originally posted by Hobbes
If they can stop people from bringing thier own cheap drink in and serving it to themselves they can stop the smokers from smoking inside the building.

Especially if it means they get whacked for a fine.

Hold on there a minute, that happens very rarely.

Compare this

A young guy comes in on a sat night the pub is busy and I find him with naggan of drink, I ask him to leave he probably won't come back for a long time.

A man in his late 60's comes in every second night and smokes a fag, he has been doing that for the last 40 years of his life.

Now does your statement seem like a good comparison, I dont think so!

nesthead

Not by much in the greater scheme of things when you consider all the other crap your general lungful of "fresh" air contains.

yeah the replacment menthol cigarettes campaign should be starting soon then.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by nesthead
yeah the replacment menthol cigarettes campaign should be starting soon then.

A fiver says it won't last a week.

stuartfanning

On the face of it it seems unenforceable, but when a Smoking Ban was introduced on the London Underground people surprisingly obeyed it and continue to do so.

David-[RLD]-

March 29th eh? about damn time too.

i believe humans will obey it but as we all know, and as ReefBreak kindly pointed out, the Skanger sub-human race will not.

public floggings should be introduced for the Skanger race.

chill

Originally posted by Sparks
. . . . the date's been announced for the start of the ban.

THANK GOD !!!! CELEBRATIONS !!!

I'm loking forward to spending more time in the pub without sucking up other people's cancer smooke and coming home stinnking of it !

Compliance ? A huge red herring. Publicans already enforce lots of rules like singing, drunkenness, roudiness etc. It their business so they have a responsibility, let them get on with it.

Clean air for all !!!

pro_gnostic_8

______________________________________________________________________
"I am pleased that the way is now clear to enforce this imoportant legislation, which has the overwhelming support of the majority of people in Ireland"
______________________________________________________________________

Minister Martin's own words in his statement issued yesterday. Well, it certainly hasn't the "overwhelming support" of those most affected by the legislation -- ie., the publicans. Nor have I discerned any overwhelming support among the clientele of the pubs I frequent. Most would have tolerated a compromise of non-smoking sections but not a blanket ban. But then, Micheal Martin has a tendency to spin untruths into "facts" to suit his agenda.

The one thing he won't be able to duck though is the blatantly discriminatory aspect of his "Smoke-Free at Work" initiative. The exemptions as they stand include prisons, Garda Station detention careas, nursing homes, hospices, Religious order homes, psychiatric hospitals, maternity homes, hotel and guesthouse bedrooms, third level education residential facilities, etc, etc. A sizeable segment of the non-smoking working population will not "benefit" from the Act. So while a hotel barman can embrace the "healthiness" of a smokefree work environment, his colleague (the housekeeping/chambermaid) in the same hotel will not be as fortunate. Same workplace but different levels of consideration for the employees health. Barmy.

Make way for the raft of discrimination and conpensation claims to follow.

jerenaugrim

Originally posted by irish1
I worked in one for 8 and a half years, and I don't think it will be enforceable with the policing measures that are in place

Most pubs in the country don't close on time anyway, so how is this going to work? I mean, if the licensing laws are unenforced, how is this going to be different?

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
______________________________________________________________________
"I am pleased that the way is now clear to enforce this imoportant legislation, which has the overwhelming support of the majority of people in Ireland"
______________________________________________________________________

Minister Martin's own words in his statement issued yesterday. Well, it certainly hasn't the "overwhelming support" of those most affected by the legislation -- ie., the publicans. Nor have I discerned any overwhelming support among the clientele of the pubs I frequent. Most would have tolerated a compromise of non-smoking sections but not a blanket ban. But then, Micheal Martin has a tendency to spin untruths into "facts" to suit his agenda.
.

I think you are wrong . . .Judging by the reaction to this thread it seems that around 80% + of those who post on this board support the ban . . . .
Among my own friends and colleagues the figure is similar if not higher . .

A man in his late 60's comes in every second night and smokes a fag, he has been doing that for the last 40 years of his life.

Your concern for the pensioners is touching, however the indisputable evidence is that what you consider to be their "only joy in life" (which, by the way, is a little patronising) has a significant impact on those around him/her inhaling their second-hand smoke . . .

I don't think Michael Martin has spun this at all . . I think this is an extremely courageous move from him . .. fair play to him!

Zombrex

Originally posted by jerenaugrim
Most pubs in the country don't close on time anyway, so how is this going to work? I mean, if the licensing laws are unenforced, how is this going to be different?

I think people are forgetting that a lot of non-smokers are going to be enforcing this law. If I was in a pub after the end of March and someone was smoking I would have no trouble going up and telling them to put it out, that they are breaking the law (and pissing me off). If they tell me to feck off I would complain to the bar staff, who should by law kick the person out if they won't stop.

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
Compare this

A young guy comes in on a sat night the pub is busy and I find him with naggan of drink, I ask him to leave he probably won't come back for a long time.

A man in his late 60's comes in every second night and smokes a fag, he has been doing that for the last 40 years of his life.

Now does your statement seem like a good comparison, I dont think so!

Well, thats about the same as comparing a teenage joyrider and a man in his late 60s with failing eyesight insisting on continuing to drive after he's lost his license (from said failing eyesight) because he's been doing so for 40 years, and coming to the conclusion that revoking driving licenses because of failing eyesight is just unenforceable as a law.

So lets let all the blind old folks get back in their cars, because we can't actually enforce the law to stop them driving!!!!

Of course the smoking ban is enforceable....but given that many/most publicans oppose the smoking ban in the first place its only perfectly natural to expect them to play the "unenforceable" card for all its worth.

The enforced it in cinemas, despite insistance that was unenforceable too.

jc

Frank Grimes

I'd say it will be enforced easily enough, more to the fact (like was pointed out on the news last night) that Irish people will generally understand that the law is there and that it should be respected.
One thing I can see happening though, and I've spoken to a few people and they're thinking the same, is people crowding at doors of pubs to smoke.
I wonder what's going to happen in the likes of Temple Bar or pubs like O'Briens/Mercantile (just randomly picked, I don't frequent these places ) which are totally packed at the weekend. Like, when people decided they need a smoke and the only place for them to go is out to the front of the pub what'll happen then? I'm sure by Midnight alot of people won't want to leave their pints down and pop outside, the pints will probably have to come too etc.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
March 29th eh? about damn time too.

i believe humans will obey it but as we all know, and as ReefBreak kindly pointed out, the Skanger sub-human race will not.

public floggings should be introduced for the Skanger race.

Ah now, that's really harsh... How about crucifiction for any of them that step of line.

Villain

Originally posted by bonkey
Well, thats about the same as comparing a teenage joyrider and a man in his late 60s with failing eyesight insisting on continuing to drive after he's lost his license (from said failing eyesight) because he's been doing so for 40 years, and coming to the conclusion that revoking driving licenses because of failing eyesight is just unenforceable as a law.

So lets let all the blind old folks get back in their cars, because we can't actually enforce the law to stop them driving!!!!

jc

How many guys in their late 60's loose thier licence because of bad eyesight compared to how many guys in their late 60's that smoke in pubs??

Find me a good comparison it your going to slate my point.

purplemonkey

Can anyone explain to me how the gardai are going to enforce the ban on 70 yr. old fellas who have been smoking and drinking in their local pub down the back arse of the country for most of their lives? They won't be able to do it. The minister will fail again and all because he didn't consult the people before he made a decision that affected the whole country.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by purplemonkey
Can anyone explain to me how the gardai are going to enforce the ban on 70 yr. old fellas who have been smoking and drinking in their local pub down the back arse of the country for most of their lives?

It's going to be the law, people can't just selectively obey laws.
Their age shouldn't come into it, just because they've been doing something for years doesn't mean they can do it forever.

Villain

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
It's going to be the law, people can't just selectively obey laws.
Their age shouldn't come into it, just because they've been doing something for years doesn't mean they can do it forever.

Yes but firstly it won't be the Garda who will enforce it, it will be the health board.

Secondly you can't just select a date and expect someone to change something they have been doing for their whole life.

It will take time and proper policing to stop

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by irish1
Secondly you can't just select a date and expect someone to change something they have been doing for their whole life.

How much time do they need/is fair to give them?
This has been talked about for a year now or more, and there's still another 5 weeks or so before it comes into effect.

Villain

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
How much time do they need/is fair to give them?
This has been talked about for a year now or more, and there's still another 5 weeks or so before it comes into effect.

They have been waiting for the gob****es to announce a date for a year, it was delayed due to the oversights in the legislation which had to be ammended.

I think there should be a 3 month phasing in period followed heavy fines policed by the GARDA

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
How many guys in their late 60's loose thier licence because of bad eyesight compared to how many guys in their late 60's that smoke in pubs??

You should only be comparing the numbers to the number of late-60-year-old smoking pub-drinkers who will refuse to obey the law, even after the publican of their local informs them that their continuation to do so may put him out of business. Thats a pretty unquantified number right now, so I wouldn't get too carried away with righteousness that my example doesn't cover enough people to be a valid comparison.

Regardless, its still a valid comparison. Aged people who have been driving for decades do lose their licenses.

Many of them want to continue to drive. Your logic says that its impossible to stop them because we're asking them to stop doing something they have done all their lives.

I don't accept that it is impossible to stop them, nor that it is not at the very least worth trying.

jc

Originally posted by irish1

It will take time and proper policing to stop

I'll butt in pardon the pun with some reassurance for you at this pint, pardon the other pun...

My nearest town has 17 pubs, it according to one of the publicans I've been talking to off the record is getting two inspectors.
One of these is the local parking warden and a vicious one at that!!
I was told that the publicans there have no doubt that, the smoking ban is going to be inforced rigidly in that town although one of the inspectors is doing the hinterland aswell as the town itself.

Put that together with the masses of people who don't smoke objecting in the manner most say they will in this thread and you have a very rigid enforcement regime.

Having said that, I honestly do not know how,smokers are going to cope with such a sea change.
All of them enjoy their smoke and it's going to be very,very difficult for them.

Villain

Originally posted by bonkey

I don't accept that it is impossible to stop them, nor that it is not at the very least worth trying.

jc

I'm not saying it's impossible bonkey, I'm saying it's going to be very hard giving the method of policing that is going to used.

I want this ban more than anyone, I worked in a pub for 8 years and came hiome everynight stinking of smoke. But I know that if it's not properly enforced people will simply disregard it. I was in a local pub lately and there was 6 men all in there 60's to 70's who were smoking, who's going to tell all them to stop if there the only ones in the pub.

Earthman, I think your Publican has been misinformed, this is going to be policed by the Healthboard, not anyone else!

koneko

It'll be hard at first for the smokers, there will be a transition period but I think in the long run this benefits us all.
I'm looking forward to it myself. I don't like being in the pub at the moment with all the smoke and all that. My poor wikkle sensitive eyes (lenses!) don't take well to it at all. It'll be hard at first though for all the smokers, I'll give you that.

Originally posted by irish1

Earthman, I think your Publican has been misinformed, this is going to be policed by the Healthboard, not anyone else!

errr no, the traffic warden applied for the job from the health board and is keeping the traffic warden job aswell.
Walks up and down the street like a storm trooper too and undoubtedly will write out infringment orders as fast as those dreaded parking tickets.
It sounds like an enforcement winner to me.

seamus

Originally posted by irish1
Earthman, I think your Publican has been misinformed, this is going to be policed by the Healthboard, not anyone else!

It's law. Although the health board will have inspectors, Gardai who find people smoking on the premises have their usual powers under law.

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
I'm not saying it's impossible bonkey, I'm saying it's going to be very hard giving the method of policing that is going to used.

Ah. I mistook me then. Apologies.

Earthman, I think your Publican has been misinformed, this is going to be policed by the Healthboard, not anyone else!

As a matter of interest, have the healthboard clarified how they will police? I would assume they will have to hire people, which wouldn't rule out the possibility of someone like a traffic warden choosing to "double-job".

I know if I was a Health Board bod i charge of finding recruits for this, I'd snap up the chance to get someone who's used to being hard-nosed (like a warden) if they applied.

jc

Jaden

As for publicans being up in arms about this-

SOD THEM.

A law has been introduced, and it is up to them to ensure compliance on their business premeses. If they continue to moan about it, I suggest that opening hours be rigidly enforced, and that publicans be prosecuted for selling alchol to someone who will drive home over the legal limit.

A week of that, and they'll shut up. Publicans (and rightly so) only ever worry about profit. Hit them there, and they'll toe the line.

Villain

Originally posted by Jaden

A week of that, and they'll shut up. Publicans (and rightly so) only ever worry about profit. Hit them there, and they'll toe the line.

I think thats the reason there worreid Jaden, they feel there profits will drop due to the ban.

The increase in the price of drink over the last few years along with stricter drink driving laws, has lead to a decrease in pub sales and increase on off licence sales, this is just another problem that will incourage people to drink at home.

It's their livelyhoods and I think they have a right to defend it.

Ste.phen

Originally posted by Jaden
A law has been introduced, and it is up to them to ensure compliance on their business premeses. If they continue to moan about it, I suggest that opening hours be rigidly enforced, and that publicans be prosecuted for selling alchol to someone who will drive home over the legal limit.

A week of that, and they'll shut up. Publicans (and rightly so) only ever worry about profit. Hit them there, and they'll toe the line. [/B]

Well put

Going off the topic a little, one of the columnists in the sunday indo a few weeks back suggested that confiscating and selling cars of those caught drink driving, without insurance, etc. would stamp out the problem in about a week.
Perhaps the same should apply to pubs? :P

("what, you're letting them smoke, eh? oh well, clear out anything you want to keep, if you want the pub back its up for auction on thursday")

seamus

Originally posted by irish1
The increase in the price of drink over the last few years along with stricter drink driving laws, has lead to a decrease in pub sales and increase on off licence sales, this is just another problem that will incourage people to drink at home.

It's their livelyhoods and I think they have a right to defend it.

They're the ones guilty for the increase in drink prices. If pubs lowered their stout and lager prices by 50c, they'd see a huge surge in people returning to the pubs, and their profits would probably increase beyond what they are now with the higher prices. The only ones to blame for the surge in drink prices are the publicans themselves.

IgnatiusJRiley

Publicans profits will drop for the first few months of the ban as some people will be in a huff and will expect that if the pubs lose money then Mickey Martin will have to allow smoking again. But if Mickey holds firm then they'll all come running back eventually cause the Irish have to socialise in a drinking environment.

Villain

Originally posted by seamus
They're the ones guilty for the increase in drink prices. If pubs lowered their stout and lager prices by 50c, they'd see a huge surge in people returning to the pubs, and their profits would probably increase beyond what they are now with the higher prices. The only ones to blame for the surge in drink prices are the publicans themselves.

Theres a lot of reasons why the drink is so dear, thats a very generalised comment you made, the cost of all the services have risen sharply, Insurance alone is huge, the suppliers had increased the drink a lot.

I'm not going to try and defend the prices being charged in Major Citys their way over the top, but in my local town you can get a Ping of the black stuff for €3

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
It's their livelyhoods and I think they have a right to defend it.

Sure they do.

But if, as the minister says, the majority of people in the country support the new law, its hard to say that the publicans are in the right in the manner in which they are seeking to defend their livelihood.

It was only a few years ago that there was a huge furore over the publicans increasing the price of drink apparently as they saw fit. Words like "cartel" were bandied about a fair bit. To turn around and then use the increasing price of drink as a reason for dropping profits and a concern for their business is something I find somewhat ironic.

Its hard to have sympathy for the businessman who screwed you when he could, and who is now complaining that his profits are getting tight and is looking for "fair" treatment...

Now, I am aware that the publicans always denied running a cartel, and argued that every single price raise was somehow justified....but the publics perception was something else entirely, and the publicans did not - in my recollection - acquit themselves well in the public eye.

They have a right to protect their industry, but if they don't have the support of their customers when asking for the protection....

jc

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by irish1

It's their livelyhoods and I think they have a right to defend it.

Surely its right that the health and economic impact of a ban on smoking in pubs etc . . should take precedence over anyones right to defend their income !!

And as for the notion that pub takings will drop as a result of this, I don't buy that at all . . I for one will be more likely to go to pubs once the ban is in place !

Villain

Oh agreed Bonkey, but I don't think there the only ones who can be blamed for the price hikes, the suppliers have increased there prices alot in the last 2 years, but they don't get the flack, because it's the publican who is seen to charge the extra.

If anyone has a Cartel it's Guinness, they supply over 70% of products in most pubs.

Think about the taps in your local pub, Smitwicks, Guinness, Bud, Carlsberg, Smirnoff ICE along with others are all brewed by Guinness.

I don't think €3 is ott for a pint

Villain

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
Surely its right that the health and economic impact of a ban on smoking in pubs etc . . should take precedence over anyones right to defend their income !!

And as for the notion that pub takings will drop as a result of this, I don't buy that at all . . I for one will be more likely to go to pubs once the ban is in place !

I didn't say they should do it, I just said it's their right.

Originally posted by irish1

It's their livelyhoods and I think they have a right to defend it.

My heart isn't exactly bleeding.
I don't know of a publican in my town that isn't driving a mercedes or equivalent on the back of the phenominal growth in drink sales over the last five to ten years.

And ALL of them have off-licences.
I'm doubting, that there will be much of a fall off in business, and certainly that if there is, it will be an insignificant fraction of the growth in that business over the last number of years.

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
My heart isn't exactly bleeding.
I don't know of a publican in my town that isn't driving a mercedes or equivalent on the back of the phenominal growth in drink sales over the last five to ten years.

And ALL of them have off-licences.
I'm doubting, that there will be much of a fall off in business, and certainly that if there is, it will be an insignificant fraction of the growth in that business over the last number of years.

Granted but thats your town and Off licence Profits average about 10% and thats net

monument

Originally posted by purplemonkey
Can anyone explain to me how the gardai are going to enforce the ban on 70 yr. old fellas who have been smoking and drinking in their local pub down the back arse of the country for most of their lives?

So should a Garda (or who ever) enforce the new speed limits coming in shortly any differently wherever it’s a 70 year old or a 18 year old?…

“sorry officer I’m just use to the old speed limits”

Originally posted by irish1
Secondly you can't just select a date and expect someone to change something they have been doing for their whole life.

You can't expect them to stop smoking just like that, but you can expect them to stop doing it in a pub.