Does Ireland need a modern fighter Squadron?

Sleipnir

Another thread on this was (quite rightly) closed by Bonkey due to advanced muppetry but it was an interesting thread and he said that another thread could be started as long as people don't fight like girls.


So, the question is quite simple,
"Do you believe that Ireland needs a modern jet airforce?"

Note the word 'needs'.
If you would like Ireland to have a squadron of fighters because they are 'cool' then please don't post.

If you believe we should, then tell us what type of aircraft, why that particular type, what threat would they be needed to defend against etc etc.


My own opinion is that we have no requirement for them.
It is extremely unlikely that we will be attacked by a force that
a.) Fighters would be a useful defence against.
b.) We would have any chance of beating anyway.

Ireland is in a pretty strategic postion geographically.
If there was, say, a war between Europe and America, the States would love to have it as a base.
However Ireland, on it's own, wouldn't be able to defend itself against such a force anyway.
Same goes for any other force; U.K., Spain, France, Germany etc.

Some people have said that F-16's would be useful for fighting terrorists which I believe is total BS.

So post away but keep the fight clean please.

bizmark

Na crist one aircraft costs around 25-100 million

If the state really wants a good air defence buy a few mobile sam launchers and build some static sam batterys + militry radar far cheaper and you wouldnt need to build large expensive airbase's

+ wtf is going to attack us! England ? soooo unlikely America pff i douth it and its not like we could stop them anyway

[edit] Woho 2000 posts [/edit]

Villain

Not unless someone else is go to pay for it.

We would need to spend several 100 million to get a decent airforce that would defend us against any possible strikes.

My only concern would be if there was a large war involving the US and they were allowed to use shannon again, that would be a pretty easy target for other countries.

But in that case I would suspect the US would have to provide protection.

A lot better places to spend the money

bonkey

Originally posted by Sleipnir
he said that another thread could be started as long as people don't fight like girls.

To be more precise, so that no-one has any grounds for saying they weren't warned....

He (that would be me) said that anyone who decides that civility is not required in this thread will receive an immediate and permanent ban from Politics.

No warning.
No one-week ban.
Permanent.

jc

Beruthiel

I can't imagine one good reason for an airforce, we have plenty of other things to spend our money on
like the disgraceful state of our hospital system for one

Sleipnir

what happened to all the 'Yes' people!?!?

Sparks

I think I've stated my view on this question rather clearly!

bonkey

I would point out that the topic, the subject header and the question in the poll all ask different things, so here's my answers to all three.

1) The topic - Does Ireland need a modern airforce.

Yes, it does. It needs modern SAR capability at a minimum, especially considering the size of our costal waters. There is a case to be made to privatise this (as has been done), but I tend to feel that this is the wrong way to go.

2) The poll - do we need a fighter squadron

No, we don't. Nor do we need a bomber squadron, an air-superiority squadron, a ground-attack squadron, or any other such combat-oriented squadron.

3) The question phrased within the poll's post - Do we need a modern jet airforce

Perhaps there is a case to be made for a small number of fixed-wing jet-powered craft, for tasks such as reconaissance and/or transport, but I am yet to be convinced of the real need for either, or that investing in aircraft and the necessary ancillaries is the best way to fill this particular gap (unlike SAR, where, as previosuly stated, I tend to feel we should fill the gap).

So in retrospect, I've voted "no" to the poll, because I think its not really asking question 1, but is headed somewhere more between items 2 and 3.

Sleipnir - correct me if my interpretation of the question is wrong
jc

mike65

Ireland plainly has no practical need for anything other than surveillance aircraft vis-a-vis drug movemnets etc.

The idea that the AirCorps would be required to take offensive action against an incoming threat is laughable (they'd proberly miss anyway!).

Who would the threat by posed by anyway?

Mike.

Sleipnir

no, you're right damn you!
Feel free to edit the poll so that it 'lines up' to the rest of the thread.

Redleslie

No. They'd probably get destroyed on the ground.

Moriarty

No, we dont need a fighter squadron. We need a capable SAR service. We need a naval service of some sort (be it a coastguard or the navy).

Depending on what role Ireland wants to play in international affairs in the future, we may need to invest more in our army, but thats a seperate thread I guess.

spongebob

Originally posted by mike65
Ireland plainly has no practical need for anything other than surveillance aircraft vis-a-vis drug movemnets etc.

....many of which can carry a SAM aloft.

A few F18 Hornets with AAMRAM and Harpoon loadout capability would deal with our requirements .....max 3 .

M

emertoff

We certainly have no need for a fighter squadron. Sorry but all branches of the Irish Defence Forces have proved themselves to be largely incapable (and that comes from someone who has a lot of relatives either currently serving or who have served and tell me this). I would welcome greater Irish involvement in European defence if that was our contribution to limiting US hegemony but we wont need and cant afford squadrons or anything else offensive on our own.

PhoenixRising

No we don't need a modern fighter squadron. I would like to see more money invested in SAR heli's and coastal patrol aircraft. Our SAR capability should be strengthened so that we can provide our own SAR to cover most eventualities without having to call in the RAF nimrod or Sea Kings to help.

Senor_Fudge

ah come on lads whats in this country thats worth defending
who'd bother invading only maybe a rampant army of ducks or something

sparkyisdum

yes its pretty clear that Ireland needs a modern squadron of fighter jets!

mycroft

sparkyisdum

Through my brillant powers of deduction I must conclude that the above poster is wisp having a hissy fit over being banned.

Fiendish I tells ya.

sparkyisdum

We certainly have no need for a fighter squadron. Sorry but all branches of the Irish Defence Forces have proved themselves to be largely incapable (and that comes from someone who has a lot of relatives either currently serving or who have served and tell me this). I would welcome greater Irish involvement in European defence if that was our contribution to limiting US hegemony but we wont need and cant afford squadrons or anything else offensive on our own.

we we certaintly do have a requirement! And note that the Defence Force has proven themselves time and time again in the missions the governments gives them. The DF is one of the best UN forces overseas!

ohno 2000 posts sad or what

sparkyisdum

This thread is biased!! Only one arguement has been put forward... i.e isnt this poll right!! I will now put the other argument forward

sparkyisdum

Current Climate
*************

Firstly, Ireland NEEDS at least a squadron of fighter jets. This simple fact has been recognised by the Irish government and it has been pointed out that the Royal Air Force (UK) is currently providing us with air cover.

Also of note is the plain fact that current Irish government policy is to shoot down hijacked aircraft. This has been demonstrated with the deployment of anti aircraft guns and flying of any air assets we currently have.

The Defence Minister Smith has noted that he currently sits on the body which monitors Ireland’s security post 9/11. This is a once a month sitting and monitors Ireland new security situation. Again this demonstrates the seriousness of the climate we live in post 9/11.


Historical
********
Also of note is the historical blind sight ness of successive Irish governments regarding defence. It’s only the last few years that the government has actually published a white paper on defence and actually outlined the roles it wishes the Defence Force to full fill in the next 10 years. I’m sure this is pretty unique in the history of any nation, waiting 70 years to provide government and leadership for a department.

In the 1930's the Irish government failed to recognise that there was a world war about to commence. Even with other countries such as Germany industrially producing arms! Foolishly it waited until the outbreak of World War Two before requesting for fighters off Great Britain. Britain of course needed all the fighters it had and so refused the request.

This neglect of the Defence Force since the foundation of the state has degraded the Defence Force until very recently. This policy has been highlighted by the general of the general public regarding the role the DF performs and the high standard to which it carries out the tasks requested of it by the Irish Government.

Because of the lack of governing regarding Defence matters, the idea of a Defence Force, serving overseas or actually defending your own country including airspace seems lost on the average citizen of the Ireland.

Posts regarding the Defence Force as incompetent highlights this ignorance. Time and time again Irish troops abroad on numerous missions have shown themselves to be nothing but professional in their conduct and carried out all mission successfully.
http://www.military.ie/pr/01-07-2002.htm
It is up to the government to deploy the DF as and how it sees fit. If it continues with ministerial air transport this should reflect badly on the Government and not on the Air Corps.

Matters regarding defence aren’t solved over night, it usually takes in the region of 5-10 years before changes ,new structures, equipments etc can be put into place. It take a very long time to raise a standing professional army, the same applies to new aircraft. Simply hoping that everything will be ok and the attempted argument that a country doesn’t need a professional standing army and in this case fighter jets, is simply incorrect.

It has been shown time and time again throughout history that countries that fail to have a properly trained standing army have suffered the most. Countries which are the weakest are attacked first.

The need for Fighters
*****************

To follow in logic terms, the Irish government would have not requested Royal Air Force (UK) jets to provide air cover unless there was a requirement. Hence we can deduce from this true statement that there is a need for fighter jets. However one may quarrel whether or not Ireland should pay for them.

On the previous threads regarding this same issue, there was the point made out that there is so few requests each year that it is foolish to invest money in a fighter programme. I have no government statistics for the number of actual sorties of R.A.F Tornados over Ireland however one should remember the high number of foreign military aircraft currently flying over our airspace which the government published. One can also deduce from this that there would be requests at Shannon and Dublin.

Until the foreseeable future all foreign dignitaries visiting this country will require air cover. That is a simply fact. Again who pays for it is for further debate.

Ireland can afford fighters
*********************

It should be pointed out that Ireland can afford modern jets. The choice would be another thread on its own however I will discuss a few. The best option for Ireland would to get involved in the US Joint Strike Fighter programme. The unit cost is $31-38m per aircraft 18,000lbs fuel capacity 15,000lbs missile capacity 1,100 km combat range. It should be noted that the $38 figure is for the navy variant. The JSF is expected to come into service in 2010 and would provide a good time frame for the air corps. Until then Ireland should continue to either rely on RAF or USAF. Also of note is the lifetime of the JSF, it will be in service until 2055! When you divide that money over the aircraft lifetime you see the real cost. Maintenance is minimal and upgrades will be the most widely available of any airframe. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1810377.stm

However there are numerous other aircraft available at even cheaper prices. Such an example is Lockheed Martin offer the F-16 to numerous customer at once hence the buyer gets the price at bulk prices. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2721703.stm


Offsets
******
In any defence deal there is a considerable amount of offsets available to the customer. This truth cannot be rubbished away and has a serious impact on the overall cost of the programme. The medium lift helicopters S-90 which were supposed to be purchased by the Department of Defence came with €100 million offsets. When you take this into account is the private sector actually providing a cheaper/better service? it should be noted that the Irish government paid the same amount of money for 1 S-90 in renting the service for 1 fiscal year, if it bought the helicopter it would still have it !

Neutrality
********
One of the arguments as to why Ireland doesn’t need fighters was that Ireland is neutral. This was put forward by the likes of the Green Party to a population which is not fully up to speed regarding defence matters. However if we were strictly neutral then we would be spending a great deal more on defence and ensuring that we don’t rely on any other nation for military aid. Nor would we allow foreign military to overfly/sail etc. Something akin to the likes of Switzerland, Finland, etc.

This as everyone knows is complete rubbish as a nuclear powered aircraft carrier docked in Dublin and thousand of US etc troops have flown through Shannon. And of course there is the Nimrod and Tornado we avail of from the RAF. The excuse that we are not military neutral does not stand up to questioning.

bus77

Ireland has no need for and could not sustain any sort of compeditive airforce.
The best way for us to spend a few million would be to build a few good quality bomb shelters in and around population centres and army barracks.

Calibos

That BBC link shows a pic of Boeings X32 not the Lockheed-Martins winning X35/JSF design :rolleyes:

Morpheus

bloody hell...

we are not constitutionaly neutral, unlike the scandinavian countries, we have a neutral defence policy.

firstly I agree that we need fighters

Like said before... The govt has said UK provides air cover and intercept when we request it, which happens numerous times a year, military aircraft overfly us all the time passing through. The govt conceded embarrasingly that these requests are made because we dont have the equipment ourselves, ergo we have a need for our own equipment, vis a vis at least one high speed high altitude squadron implying jets.

Weve had them before, the silver swallows werent just a display team (that beat the world best red arrows in competition in England a few years back in one of their last and greatest years together) no, the silver swallows were Fouga Magister JETS. They formed the Light Strike Squadron (secondary role aerobatic display team) and were armed fighters.


NOW...
secondly how dare anyone on this board, unbasedly and unfairly rubbish the defence forces of ireland without having any hard facts as to why they feel they can say the DF are bad at what they do. You obviously dont have a clue.

they provide the govt with a security means to an end, on 24 hour call at a very VERY economical price, they provide the state with

1. a counter-terrorist capability to the same high standards of other EU and the US CT forces.

2. a highly highly trained small mobile force with considerable ingenuity and tactics for its size, again recognised world wide.

3. Garda backup both aerial and land based. And of course the Navy has powers of arrest at sea too.

4. a bomb disposal unit so well trained and well recognised throughout the world for dealing with terrorist bombs that other countries have sent their troops here to learn (paying for the service too)

5. world renowned and world recognised highest standards of peacekeeping and peace-enforcement units ever deployed by the UN (THIS IS FACT) again training other countries including EU, Britain and US troops in these roles (and again getting paid for it.)

6. A naval force severely undermanned and under equipped which has time and again captured arms and drugs and illegal vessels stealing Irelands national resources.

7. an aircorps which has miraculously kept buckets flying for much longer than foreseen when first purchased, providing air cover for foreign visits, army support, SAR for free (unlike the current paying of the private firms), garda support, long range ocean surveillance, inland surveilance and aerial photography to numerous companies and departments, oh yeah, and fat ministers with free flights.

8. Lets not forget the dear FCA (now the Reserve Defence Forces RDF) who provide a vast civilian experienced, well trained (since the whitepaper began to be implemented) militarily indoctrinated VOLUNTEER armed force for the Defence Forces to draw upon when needed.

9. a dept that time and again has worked within its budget, yet provided all the services required of it no matter the detriment of its equipment at the time.

Im not getting away from the threads point, but others are drawing it into a slagging match over how good/crap the defence forces are... thats not the point here, so unless you know what your talking about (not your great great grand aunties friends distant cousins mates opinions) then remove yourself from the argument or post something worth reading.

:rolleyes:

Nuttzz

We do need a modern air force complete with a bomber wing of B52's to carpet bomb Belfast, 100 Helis for troop movements and SAR, 200 F16s to protect our bomber force as it carpet bombs the North. Why cant you people see the logic of it all?????? it would sort out the north once and for all.......

Lets not forget the dear FCA (now the Reserve Defence Forces RDF) who provide a vast civilian experienced, well trained (since the whitepaper began to be implemented) militarily indoctrinated VOLUNTEER armed force for the Defence Forces to draw upon when needed

mmmm when needed? like you mean once since WWII?

Morpheus

Very funny nuttz, I wasnt slagging the reserves, I was talking about when the defence forces need outside specialist skills not currently supplied by serving PDF members, they can usually find someone in the reserves with the required skill and use these reservists whove been trained in civilian industry, as consultants or to provide a solution without incurring additional cost to the government.

The fact is that a reserve force is needed even if only used once (which is untrue, theyve been used many times). If a govt needs something then it should be there, provided by ourselves.

If we need to request CAP and fly overs by the RAF as indicated by our govt, then we need that facility therefore as an independent republic, we should bloody well provide it ourselves. :mad:

The best thing to do with nor'n ireland is to buy a gigantic saw, hack along the legth of the border and push it off into the atlantic before purchasing some nukes from Iran and making a glass island out of it. :rolleyes:

Sleipnir

The Fouga's were trainers although they did have the capability to carry a small amount of AG weapons plus a 7.62mm machine gun (which is bloody tiny)
Although a very capable trainer, with a range of just 575 miles and a top speed of 444mph it isn't any use as an interceptor.

It would have very limited use as an A-G platform (2 110lb pound bombs!?!) but any opposing airforce would quickly destroy them before they could be usefully deployed.

Like said before... The govt has said UK provides air cover and intercept when we request it, which happens numerous times a year, military aircraft overfly us all the time passing through.

How many times a year? Please quote your source for this information.
Military aircraft from what country overfly us all the time?
They must have permisssion to enter Irish airspace regardless of wheter they are civilian or military.
The American's do overfly quite frequently but we do not request that the British provide air cover when this occurs. They are their allies after all.

bonkey

Originally posted by sparkyisdum
ohno 2000 posts sad or what

Banned.
Permanently.

You know, if banning wasn't so easy, this would be getting tiresome.

Originally posted by mycroft
Through my brillant powers of deduction I must conclude that the above poster is wisp having a hissy fit over being banned.

Your point being?

Look - I'm getting fed up of this. If people have a problem with a new user because they think its an old user returned, then report the post and leave it at that.

If you don't have a problem, then don't do anything about it.

This "I need to tell the world that I think you're really <insert other username here>" posting has got to go. It has absolutely no relevance to the topic at hand, unless (as was pointed out elsewhere) you have a problem with a banned user re-registering and re-entering the discussion....in which case, report the post and don't reply to it. At the very least, consider that if its so obvious to you its probably equally obvious to any other regular here, who are the only people likely to care in the first place.

jc

mycroft

This "I need to tell the world that I think you're really <insert other username here>" posting has got to go. It has absolutely no relevance to the topic at hand, unless (as was pointed out elsewhere) you have a problem with a banned user re-registering and re-entering the discussion....in which case, report the post and don't reply to it. At the very least, consider that if its so obvious to you its probably equally obvious to any other regular here, who are the only people likely to care in the first place.

Oooohhh look at the state of her

Apologises. And yes it was fairly obvious and it would have been a better use of my time to report wisp to the proper authorities, my first boards faux pau.

I should point out that I'm hardly a regular, and have only really been posting so much since chrimbo due to a work lull.

Not to be cyncial but I'd suspect that the majority of yeh votes which jumped up after "sparkyisdumb" appeared, is just him registering and then registering again to tip the poll.

Which would be a mockery of democracy if it was just a little pathetic.

Morpheus

Maybe its better that you dont post that often, you dont seem to contribute much to this thread other than conspiracy theories about others! :rolleyes:

Im sure the Mods can check that out by seeing who voted what and how long they are registered, now can you all shut up about people being kicked or banned and stick to the topic or else bugger off onto a different thread please.

mycroft

Maybe its better that you dont post that often, you dont seem to contribute much to this thread other than conspiracy theories about others!

Fine

If we need to request CAP and fly overs by the RAF as indicated by our govt, then we need that facility therefore as an independent republic, we should bloody well provide it ourselves.

As in independent republic we should have lots of things.

A manufacturing base which should supply all our countries consumer needs. Oh wait not possible.

The argument put forward that as an independent country we need an airforce able to defend ourselves, is the same one which Irish Steel used for decades to justify it's heavily subsidised existance. "as an independent republic we need steel manufacturing capability". It was a joke.

We're not independent in reality. We're interlinked historical, economically and culturally with the rest of europe and the UK in particular.

Suggesting that Ireland needs to stand on her own two feet on this matter is just daft.

Even if we could afford a modern fighter squadron, no one has put forward a concrete argument that this force would be necessary.

We've had unsupported claims of RAF overflights, but no one has explained how often and for what reason these occur.

Argued we need them for defense, ignores the fact that western europe is at it's most politcally stable than at any other time in recorded history.

The counter terrorism argument is just daft, and no one on any other thread has come up with proof that fighter jets would be effective in a sept 11th type situation.

secondly how dare anyone on this board, unbasedly and unfairly rubbish the defence forces of ireland without having any hard facts as to why they feel they can say the DF are bad at what they do. You obviously dont have a clue.

Followed by much chest beating.

Y'know what you can compare that with the tens of millions spent on army deafness claims. I think the truth is in the middle.

I think our army is adequate. I think we need a few more small light patrol boats to protect Irish waters from the "threat" of illegal fishing. I think we need an effective SAR unit, and finally I think we a force to honour our UN peacekeeping duties, and counter terrorism etc.

I think a modern airforce would be a lumbering money sucking unnecessary never used white elephant.

Sleipnir

Originally posted by mycroft
The counter terrorism argument is just daft, and no one on any other thread has come up with proof that fighter jets would be effective in a sept 11th type situation.

Agreed. The largest airforce in the world couldn't stop it from happening even though they had assets in the air at the time.

You do not fight terrorists with a (primarily) air-to-air platform.

I feel that Ireland needs a small force of lightly armed aircraft capable of intercepting aircraft from small private drug runners to fast foreign jets. Only as a means of forcing,if necessary, an aircraft to land at a specified location. Another possible use is the forcing of suspect ships to comply with orders. I feel that is the extent of which armed aircraft are needed in this country. F/A-18s would be nice, but I feel that such high-end jets are too expensive for the job they do. the PC-9s we're getting can do the air interception job to an extent, as they have a potential armament of Sidewinder Air-to-air missiles, guns, unguided rockets and (I think) unguided bombs. While they're not perfect (They'd struggle to try to catch up to airliner-type aircraft, max. speed of 300kts where most 'liners are about the 450-500 mark) They do some of the job.

mycroft

small private drug runners

Sorry thats an ineffective method of dealing with drug runners.

Leaving aside my opinion on this countries drugs policies.

The cost effectiveness of using plans to stop "small" drugs ships isn't pratical.

If you're aware of a shipment entering the country intercept it at arrival. The likelyhood of happening on a drugs shipment during a a patrol is slim. The US and UK coastguard rarely make such seizures at sea, what makes you think we would?

Besides most drugs enter this country smuggled through legal channels, usually on car ferrys. Spend a fraction of the cost of the jets hiring more customs workers it'd be a much better use of the money

fast foreign jets

You've pointed out these would struggle to even catch a passenger plane.

They do some of the job.

What job?

gandalf

OK Enough of this. Closing this thread.

Gandalf.