Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Western Rail Corridor

Options
1356796

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    QUOTE]Originally posted by Slice
    the city grew around the line, regardless of what that line may be called.
    [/QUOTE]

    Can I controversially suggest that the name is of some significance, to the extent that the WRC could hardly be renamed the Western Metropolitan Corridor. I repeat, the example of the Metropolitan line seems more relevant to, say, the rail line from Dublin to Mullingar or Dublin to Dundalk, which might also be described as passing through rural areas if you wanted to ignore the big smoke on one end of the line.
    Originally posted by Slice
    Prior to the new Enterprise service being introduced it could have been argued that the improved service was not necessary .....

    Do I take this to mean that, something like Alice through the looking glass, we should build infrastructure where it seems to be needed least on the basis that you never know what might happen?
    Originally posted by Slice
    Because of Cork and Limerick's proximity and their relatively large size a service between the two cities would no doubt meet necessary passenger numbers for it to be viable

    The only general assessment of when an inter-urban rail service is justified is the Review of Transport Infrastructure Investment Needs, done by DKM consultants in 1999 and cited by the Oireachtas Committee on Transport. I'm not saying this is the last word - but if you are so certain that a Cork to Limerick service is viable produce a similar level of support.

    "The strongest markets for inter-urban passenger rail are city-pairs at distances which compete with the private car, at the shorter end, and with air travel, at the longer end. Rail is not competitive for shorter inter-urban trips, because total journey time, allowing for mode changes, will be shorter by car. Over longer distances, air travel will be quicker. The optimal market for inter-urban rail would be a city-pair with big cities at both ends, and distance at least 300 kms, but less than about 600 or 700 kms, where rail begins to lose out to air. Paris-Lyons, or Frankfurt-Munich, would be examples of inter-urban markets where the rail mode is an advantage.

    Ireland does not have any city-pairs which meet these criteria. The closest is Dublin-Cork, with a distance of about 260 kms. But Cork is a small city, which limits service frequency, and the distance is short enough to leave the car mode competitive for many trips.

    Dublin-Belfast is shorter, at about 175 kms, but the city of Belfast [is] considerably larger than Cork. Commercial and social traffic between the two is modest, and rail traffic Dublin-Belfast is much lower than on the Dublin-Cork line."
    Originally posted by Slice
    - but of course unless a train running from Limerick to Cork somehow managed to travel via Rathgar or some such place then it will never be politically popular.

    Here, I feel, is the source of much of our trouble. There seems to be a great deal of resentment of the success of Dublin, and an unwillingness to accept it exists and get on with it. Its like that old story about the Irish lobster tank not needing a cover because if one tries to escape the others will drag him back. Concentrating infrastructure where we know it will make a difference will lead to benefits for the whole country. Trying to strangle Dublin through neglect and peppering the countryside with white elephants will not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Originally posted by ishmael whale
    I think the name is a bit of a giveaway, at the same time:

    Metropolitan \Met`ro*pol"i*tan\ a. [L. metropolitanus: cf. F. mtropolitain.] Of or pertaining to the capital or principal city of a country.
    You might think that but a quick google would probably have done away with that idea. I used to be pretty interested in the underground as a kiddie so here's the scéal:

    The entire line is only called the Metropolitan today because that was the name the amalgamated company took when the St John's Wood Railway Company merged with the Metropolitan Railway around 1870. Prior to this of course the Met had opened an underground (the world's first) from Paddington to Farringdon in 1863. It extended out to Harrow in 1880 and as far as Ayelsbury a few years later and had a connector with the lines to Oxford and Cambridge. These days the line only runs as far as Amersham (nice neck of the woods by the way) as beyond there was taken over by BR in 1961 but even that's pretty far outside of what was established London at the time of completion (or you could say, even now - the line extends into Buckinghamshire). Amersham is 27 miles from central London.

    All through its independent history (prior to the formation of London Underground in 1933) the line was known for encouraging development on green-field sites and commuter traffic. This continued even after (the Barking extension of 1936). It even built the Stanmore extension (now part of the Jubilee (Fleet) line) and the Watford and Uxbridge branches specifically to encourage development. Basically they built the lines and people put developments around the lines.

    Hence this is the perfect example of infrastructure creating its own demand. Because it did. You can still maintain that it won't work in Dublin if you like, but please don't say that it never happened.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    Originally posted by sceptre
    Hence this is the perfect example of infrastructure creating its own demand. Because it did. You can still maintain that it won't work in Dublin if you like, but please don't say that it never happened.

    I 'm not sure you're following the thread, which is about the Western Rail Corridor. The essential contention of WRC proponents is that they can conjure passengers out of a vacuum. The history of the Metropolitan line (and you'll undoubtably have noted I have already provided a link to a brief history of the line) seems to be it promoted development as it was a link to London.

    I'm not saying that the development of rail services to Dublin will not work, so maybe read the thread a little slower. I'm suggesting that when people describe the Metropolitan line as being built in a rural area that this is not the same as the WRC concept and that a closer parallel would be Dublin-Mullingar or Dublin - Dundalk. I'm perfectly open to the idea that development might string out along the Dublin Mullingar line if rail services were improved. This is not so much a case of infrastructure creating its own demand as catering for the increase in population that we can expect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    The condescension hardly does your case any favours Ishmael. People might take you a little more seriously if you dropped it. I'll make a proper reply to the actual points hidden in your post later.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,356 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0506/rail.html
    Expert group to look at Western Rail Corridor

    06 May 2004 12:39
    The Minister for Transport, Seamus Brennan, has confirmed the establishment of an expert committee to look at re-opening the Western Rail Corridor.

    Opposition parties have been calling on the Government to re-activate the line, which runs from Sligo to Cork.

    Speaking on RTÉ Radio, Mr Brennan said the new committee will be chaired by the Chief Executive of Jury's Doyle hotels, Pat McCann.


    Mr Brennan said he expected the committee's examination process to take a couple of months.
    ... after the elections.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    Originally posted by ishmael whale
    I'm not saying that the development of rail services to Dublin will not work, so maybe read the thread a little slower. I'm suggesting that when people describe the Metropolitan line as being built in a rural area that this is not the same as the WRC concept and that a closer parallel would be Dublin-Mullingar or Dublin - Dundalk. I'm perfectly open to the idea that development might string out along the Dublin Mullingar line if rail services were improved. This is not so much a case of infrastructure creating its own demand as catering for the increase in population that we can expect.
    Then why wouldn't a link joining Cork, Limerick, Galway and Sligo not also work? Surely it could serve shorter commutes around all 4 centres, as well as the links between the centres.

    Also I'd like to know why you think Dublin prospered if it wasn't due to the infrastucture (not just rail) that was in place and also put in place, in and around it, in the last 15 or so years?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭Slice


    Dublin-Belfast is shorter, at about 175 kms, but the city of Belfast [is] considerably larger than Cork. Commercial and social traffic between the two is modest
    I think anyone who uses Enterprise can testify that this 'modest' traffic often results in standing space only, which is a situation that wouldn't be tolerated in any other part Europe from an inter-city service.
    There seems to be a great deal of resentment of the success of Dublin
    Well I don't intend to produce a study on the viability of services between Cork and Limerick. We only need to look at the success and viability of services in the UK between similar urban areas such as Cardiff-Swansea or Portsmouth-Southampton. What's more commuter services between Mallow and Cork are already being increased with plans to build additional stations between the two points. There is no resentment in Dublin's success, I think the Luas will prove to be a worthwhile initiative but the cost of extending commuter services from Cork-Mallow to Cork-Limerick would be a fraction the cost of Luas* and would prove far more significant a benefit for the country than Luas.

    *the total estimated cost for the WRC being less than the final cost for Luas


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Eurorunner


    Here, I feel, is the source of much of our trouble. There seems to be a great deal of resentment of the success of Dublin, and an unwillingness to accept it exists and get on with it. Its like that old story about the Irish lobster tank not needing a cover because if one tries to escape the others will drag him back. Concentrating infrastructure where we know it will make a difference will lead to benefits for the whole country. Trying to strangle Dublin through neglect and peppering the countryside with white elephants will not.

    Resentment towards dublin?..im not having any of it. As an enlightened dub has already pointed out, the development of the wrc - as part of a greater overall effort in terms of regional development - will actually be better for both dublin and the regions. Theres no sense of proportion when it comes to development in ireland.
    IMO, the rate of development has had a detrimental effect on dublin and the quality of living in and around the city.
    Some of the pressure on the east coast should be eleviated by encouraging development in the regions. Infrastructure projects such as the wrc are essential to this end. How can having a rail link that connects limerick - galway - sligo possibly be a bad idea!
    And if ishmael, you come back again with talk of white elephants, i defy you to outline how the west of ireland should be developed seeing as your recent threads indicate we shouldnt have airports/major road infrastructure/rail infrastructure...;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,356 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Looks like design by committee.

    http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=5110&lang=ENG&loc=1183
    Hotel Group Chief Executive To Head Working Group on Western Rail Corridor
    6 May 2004

    The Minister for Transport, Séamus Brennan T.D. and Minister of State, Dr. James McDaid T.D. today (Thursday, 6th May 2004) announced the composition of the Expert Working Group established to examine in detail the potential of the Western Rail Corridor as part of the rail link that would connect Sligo, Galway, Limerick and Cork.

    The Working Group will be chaired by Mr. Pat McCann, Chief Executive of Jurys Doyle Hotel Group plc, the countrys largest hotel group. Mr. McCann (52), a native of Ballymote, Co. Sligo, has had a distinguished career in the hotel and tourism industry in Ireland and abroad since 1969 when he joined Ryan Hotels. He has been General Manager of Ryans Hotels and Group General Manager and Group Operations Manager of Jurys Hotel Group before being appointed Chief Executive Designate (1998-2000) and Chief Executive in 2000.

    Mr. McCann is a past President of the Irish Hotels Federation, served as a Council Member on the Irish Tourism Industry Confederation and European Hotels Federation and has been a member of the National Tourism Council and the Tourism Review Group. He is currently a member of the National Executive of the employers organisation IBEC.

    Minister Brennan said the Group consisted of people of the highest calibre and combined strong leadership qualities at county and regional levels with committed individuals at community level and personnel with expertise in developing railway services and structures.

    The full membership of the Working Group is:

    Chairman Mr. Pat McCann

    County Councils

    Clare County Manager Mr. Alec Fleming
    Galway County Manager Mr. Tom Kavanagh
    Alternate Mr. John Morgan
    Mayo County Manager Mr. Des Mahon
    Roscommon County Manager Mr. John Tiernan
    Sligo County Manager Mr. Hubert Kearns
    Limerick County Manager Mr. Edmond Gleeson
    Cork County Manager Mr. Maurice Moloney

    Regional Authorities

    Mr. Jim McGovern, Director, West Regional Authority
    Mr. Thomas Kirby, Director, Mid West Regional Authority
    Mr. Matt Donnelly, Director, Border Regional Authority
    Mr. John Mc Aleer, Director, South West Regional Authority

    City and County and Development Boards

    Mr. Frank Dawson, Galway County Development Board

    Western Development Commission

    Ms. Lisa McAllister, Chief Executive

    Inter County Rail Committee

    Fr. Michéal MacGréil SJ, Westport, Co. Mayo
    Mr. Terry Byrne, Circular Road Sligo

    West on Track

    Mr. Martin Cunniffe, Claremorris, Co. Mayo
    Councillor Tom McHugh, Tuam, Co. Galway
    Ms. Helen Rochford-Brennan, Tubbercurry, Co. Sligo

    Iarnród Éireann

    Mr. Michael Reidy Manager, Programmes and Projects Unit
    Mr. Tom Finn, Manager, Strategic Planning Unit

    Railway Procurement Agency

    Mr. Robert Leech

    Department of Transport

    Mr. Ed. O Callaghan

    Minister Brennan said; The Western Rail Corridor has the potential to play a vital strategic role in the eventual rebalancing of the West coast with the East coast, a policy I am strongly committed to as part of the implementation of the National Spatial Strategy. The Strategic Rail Review did not include the Corridor in its recommended investment strategy but I declined to accept that finding as final. After meeting with a number of groups advocating the re-opening of the Corridor and making an extensive tour of the rail route I agreed that the proposal should be carefully evaluated and its potential examined from all relevant perspectives.

    The Working Group I am announcing today will be charged with examining all the possibilities, including the costs and benefits of the proposal, the travel demand that gives rise to the proposal, how the proposal might be funded, and where the Corridor stands in the context of the findings of the National Spatial Strategy, the Strategic Rail Review, the Regional Planning Guidelines, relevant County and City Development Plan, the submissions put forwards in its favour and the current and proposed road investment programmes.

    The Minister said all Regional Authorities are currently finalising Planning Guidelines as part of the implementation of the National Spatial Strategy at regional level. One of the core issues that the Working Group will have to carefully consider is the extent to which this rail proposal is facilitated by the land use strategies emerging from these Guidelines. As I have stated in the past, the Working Group will not be a talking shop. It will be focussed, proactive and driven by a determination to ask the hard questions and take the hard decisions. I look forward to this Group beginning its work shortly and making progress on rigorously assessing the potential in the short term and long-term of the Western Rail Corridor, Minister Brennan said.

    ENDS


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    I could go on for pages (no, I don't mean this to be a threat.) Maybe its best to concentrate on two points.

    Why do I think Dublin has continued to grow? Largely because it contains enough concentration of population to have critical mass. Its not the infrastructure, which is following rather than preceeding development. The ring road still isn't complete, and for some bizarre reason has a toll bridge in the middle of it which until recently had so few toll booths that it caused a traffic jam because they couldn't take the money in fast enough. The general traffic situation is twitchy. Its getting better, but not so long ago if a truck got a puncture on Pearse Street at five o'clock that meant 10,000 people sat down to a reheated dinner two hours later. The port access tunnel is only now being put in place. Access to the airport is (still) hardly ideal. We could go on, but surely the point is made.

    How should the West of Ireland develop ? Can I suggest that the West is its own worst enemy. The key point I've been making in other threads is that the approach of Western development advocates leads to resources being spread too thinly between locations so that nowhere can emerge as an alternative location to Dublin. They are underwriting their own demise and blaming the East as if we're going out at night and stealing all their investment. How would I suggest the West develops? By agreeing among themselves where development in their region should be centred and allowing resources to be concentrated there.

    Take airports. There are eight airports in the country. Five of them are on the West coast. Taking away the effect of the Shannon stopover they collectively handle less traffic than Cork. Spreading the limited local demand over so many locations simply means that no airport can gain necessary scale to really become an asset. Is it really such a surprise that these airports are not making any impact on the attractiveness of the West as a location for industry?

    The WRC is just another example of the failed approach followed by Western development activists. Rather than looking to see what they might do themselves to contribute to local development they are simply banging on the political process to get delivery of some more pork.

    All the time I stress I personally see no need to try to divert development away from the East. If that's the natural centre for growth, fine. But if there are people out there who want to see the West develop they might at least have a coherent strategy, and not blame others for the result of their own inability to face up to some home truths.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 78,356 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Originally posted by ishmael whale
    All the time I stress I personally see no need to try to divert development away from the East.
    What about (a) congestion (b) overpriced development?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    The congestion and 'overpriced development' (I'm taking this to mean increases in property prices) are chiefly a function of poor planning and insufficient investment in infrastructure in the East, in part hampered by it being politically difficult to plan on the basis that the East is the focus for growth. There is no essential reason why Leinster cannot house more people. In fact if the present policy.of splintering resources in the regions goes on its simply inevitable that the concentration of growth in the East will continue. Accepting this and planning for it, rather than wasting resources on pie-in-the-sky projects like the WRC, would make people's lives more comfortable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭Slice


    I personally see no need to try to divert development away from the East
    Investing in the west is not diverting investment from the east. Less than half of the country's population live in Greater Dublin so to suggest that all investment should be priortised for Dublin just because it has 'critical mass' doesn't really hold water. How do you suggest building a Dublin-on-the-Atlantic Ishmael?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    With respect you're not following the line of argument. Investment in infrastructure has traditionally been diverted away from Dublin, in the hope that development would follow. Without getting hung up too much on definitions, investment in this context would cover things like WRC. Development would be things like companies opening up and population growing. The point I have been making over a number of threads here and on the politics board is that scattering infrastructural investment about the country has not succeeded in attracting development away from Dublin.

    My understanding of the position of Western development advocates is that they want to see a higher portion of, say, population growth heading their way. They propose things like WRC to do this, and have already secured things like the regional airports. My essential point is this fails to attract development because they scatter resources too thinly, so we are left with development still concentrating in the East only with resources that could be catering for it spent on unneeded facilities elsewhere.

    The West has it in its own power to improve the situation by taking on board the analysis of the National Spatial Strategy and ensuring that resources are concentrated so that a location emerges that can compete with Dublin. Instead we get groups like Irish Rural Link support once-off housing in the countryside. This policy is simply inconsistent with developing rail services, but no-one locally seems to be trying to address this inconsistency. Western development advocates are consistently supporting the policies that underwrite the regions own demise, and in doing so are wasting resources that could be achieving national goals.

    Dublin's growth is lifting the whole Eastern region. If, say, Galway was allowed to be the Western centre it might equally do the same for the West. The West has probably more to gain from improving the Galway - Dublin rail service than from the WRC.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'Dublin on the Atlantic', but I believe that about five million people live in the State of Victoria. Three million of them live quite successfully in Melbourne. Continuation of the present approach by Western development advocates will ensure the same result in Ireland. The only question is how much money they'll manage to waste in the process.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Eurorunner


    Investment in infrastructure has traditionally been diverted away from Dublin, in the hope that development would follow.

    Any examples you would like to cite from recent years?



    My essential point is this fails to attract development because they scatter resources too thinly,

    I would tend to agree with you on this point to a certain extent. However, in terms of the current debate ie. wrc, Limerick and Galway are definitely regional centres - that have reached a size whereby they can attract significant investment.
    A project of this nature - linking them up - only strengthens their positions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭ishmael whale


    A recent example of resources heading West that could usefully be used East is the 40 million spent on the unneeded passenger terminal at Shannon, opened around 2001.

    In the context of the WRC, some people have indeed pointed out that linking Limerick and Galway could be useful. However, the WRC campaigners are tending to stress the link from Galway to Sligo, and linkage of Knock Airport, without any real assessment of the costs and benefits involved.

    Let me first say I'm not particularly wedded to the idea of a rail link to Dublin Airport, it just seems like one of those things that we should have on the list for some day. But 75% of national air traffic passes through Dublin. Knock handles maybe 2%. The idea that linking Knock Airport into the national rail network as a higher national priority than Dublin hardly stands up to scrutiny.

    My main problem with WRC is as a misapplication of national resources. I think 300 million could do some good elsewhere, maybe even for some non-transport related area. As will be well known, Platform 11 who are committed to lobbying for better national passenger rail services, have withdrawn support for the WRC on the grounds that it is simply not a priority. Even within the Western region some people are asking themselves if this is really the best use to which this money could be put. The WRC campaign has really been trading on the basis that a lot of local organisations have supported them because the 'W' stands for Western. Supporting organisations haven't really studied the proposal in any detail, or considered what alternative projects might bring greater benefits.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Well, the service the punters would get as a result of the WRC project just wouldn't be that great, would it?

    All they'd get at the end of EUR 300m would be a single track with a few passing loops. You couldn't run very frequent services (not more than two per hour, I wouldn't think, though it would depend on how many trains you could afford to keep running and how the passing loops were designed, as well as the speed).It would be pretty slow if they did it as proposed, with a 60 mph limit. Not only does this mean that it would take longer to get from A to B, it also means that you need more rolling stock to provide a frequent service.

    There are a lot of romantic notions out there about rail. Don't get me wrong, I love trains as much as the next guy, but we need to get a few things straight. Rail is incredibly expensive and awkward to keep in operation, especially when there's no second track as a backup. You need a lot of specialised and expensive equipment and labour. With a single-track, absolutely all of the work has to be done outside of operational hours. The costs skyrocket. Unless you have the population density around the stations and can get the revenue to justify the maintenance bill then the whole thing will get into financial trouble pretty quickly.

    I think it is fair to say that sometimes infrastructure does draw new development to an area. Look at what the DART did for Bray for instance. But this isn't remotely comparable. Nobody is going to be attracted to move to the West by a slow train that passes through every few hours.

    I said it before, but why not put a two- or three-lane busway where the line is? It appears to me that the buses would be better suited to servicing the spread-out population.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭P11 Comms


    Do you think the Western Rail Corridor is the most important rail transport project in Ireland's history or do you think it is mostly a joke. Should it be all reopened, parts of it reopened, or none of it reopned?

    With the Expert Study Working Group Report due any day now, Platform11 is conducting a poll to gauge the feelings of people interesting in rail transport issues regarding the WRC. If it is to be repoened then which sections should be and which not.

    Cheers

    http://platform11.hyperboards2.com/index.cgi?action=display&cat=welcome&board=transitplan&thread=1100032665&start=0#1100033521


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Eurorunner


    Do you think the Western Rail Corridor is the most important rail transport project in Ireland's history
    As things stand right now, YES.
    Should it be all reopened, parts of it reopened, or none of it reopned?
    Most of it should be reopened. ie. Exceptions would be Ballyglunin, Ballindine & Milltown. However, they should be kept in mind for future development ie. where irish rail already own land at these locations, they should hold on to it - to allow for future developmental needs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭P11 Comms


    "As things stand right now, YES."

    You are telling me that the Western Rail Corridor through the vast one-off housing wilderness of Mayo, Sligo and East Galway is a more imporant rail project that the CIE Dublin Rail Plan which will link up all the capital's main rail stations and deliver an annual rail ridership of 100 million passengers a year by 2015? Compared to 6 people using Tubbercurry station every day.

    Seriously, I would sincerely like to know why you feel this way. Do you honestly feel that the WRC is more important than the Interconnector, Dublin Airport Rail Line, Navan rail line and Luas extentions?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭thejollyrodger


    Parts of it should be opened ya of course !!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Eurorunner


    Here we go again....


    In case you havnt noticed, theres a tad of disproportion to 'planning stategy' of recent times. This has led to unbalanced development - the majority of which has been centred on the east coast - to the ultimate detriment of both the east coast and the rest - in terms of quality of life, housing issues and of course traffic congestion.
    ou are telling me that the Western Rail Corridor through the vast one-off housing wilderness of Mayo, Sligo and East Galway is a more imporant rail project that the CIE Dublin Rail Plan which will link up all the capital's main rail stations and deliver an annual rail ridership of 100 million passengers a year by 2015? Compared to 6 people using Tubbercurry station every day.

    No. What i am telling you is that there is a great opportunity here to provide an alternative infrastructure interconnecting the important regional cities of Limerick, Galway and Sligo. An alternative infrastructure that has the potential to link up two international airports along the way - and as a secondary consequence, if it benefits places like Tubbercurry, then all the better.

    Your argument makes it sound like we can only have the one project. What we should be looking towards is getting more for our taxes - cos for what we pay out, we dont see the value of half of it, in comparison with our european counterparts. Case in Point = the Luas. Yes, a very necessary project but did we get value for money - no way.

    Do i think Dublin should have a fully functioning suburban rail infrastructure - of course i do. Do i think that we on the western seaboard should suffer as a result - no way! Furthermore, when you set this project off against that of the Dublin Rail Plan, theres a tad of a difference in terms of the capital spend required on each dont you think ;)
    The West of Ireland isnt a freakin nature reserve. People live here too fella - and they want to see vibrant regional centres develop which provide employment and services. Projects like this one will go a long way to making the regions more of a feasible option for development going forward.

    The emphasis should be on development in the regions over the next few years. This would be a win win scenario all round - taking the pressure off of the east coast.

    I think it would be more advantageous for all if we moved away from this Capital vs. regions argument and focus on the real problem. I.e. How come we’re haemorraging money on all of these major projects? Furthermore, how come they’re all getting done a minimum ten years after they were urgently needed?


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,356 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Eurorunner wrote:
    People live here too fella
    Yes, but not many.
    Eurorunner wrote:
    and they want to see vibrant regional centres develop which provide employment and services.
    But is the WRC the way to do this or is it a few individuals engaging in grandiosing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭P11 Comms


    Eurorunner wrote:
    What i am telling you is that there is a great opportunity here to provide an alternative infrastructure interconnecting the important regional cities of Limerick, Galway and Sligo. An alternative infrastructure that has the potential to link up two international airports along the way - and as a secondary consequence, if it benefits places like Tubbercurry, then all the better.

    How will a single-track railway line which was built as a victorian tramway and passes through an absolutely staggering 61 levels crossings between Claremorris and Coolooney, including 3 major ones on the N17 just south of Claremorries provide a meaningful rail service let alone regional development?

    How will monster tailbacks on the N17 caused by a railcar chugging at 20mph through 3 Merrion Gates-like level crossing filled with a few grannies going to Knock on their free travel passes do this?

    Where is the comparative case model anywhere on this planet where a single track rail line which will be limited to speeds of under 50MPH passing though mainly empty landscape automatically leads to regional development? How many skyscrapers are on the Knock skyline which resulted from the same "regional development" it was meant bring during the last 20 years? The reality is that it is a total myth that the WRC will have the likes of Intel and Google moving to Swinford.

    I live in Tubbercurry and 12 people a day take the Sligo to Galway bus. If the train takes half that, this is 6 people using a the train. This is typical of passenger levels at the proposed stations north of Tuam the WRC can expect and for a minimum construction cost of several hundred million euro for three trains a day in each direction. I consider this to be an obscene waste of taxpayers monies and a even bigger waste of rail transport resources. Another thing, the economy around here is booming and the WRC has played no part in this fact to date.

    There is only one section of the the Western Rail Corridor which has a hope in hell of providing a decent service and adequet passenger numbers and that is Athenry-Ennis in order to provide a Limerick-Ennis-Galway Inter-City service. Maybe Tuam in time, but that's it.

    For a more rational and less "victim-complex" view of the WRC check out this: http://www.platform11.org/gal_ennis_lim.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Eurorunner


    Grandiosing Victor? Not something that would come natural to me that’s for sure! lol.
    But is the WRC the way to do this.
    It would not do it alone – just one aspect of a wider stategy that needs to be implemented. At some stage, capital expenditure will be necessary in these places. When would be a good time? When all East coast projects have been completed? …and if we approach it like that, then that day will never come for either East coast or west coast.
    You should also note that the infrastructure for the most part already exists for this project. As regards the issue of it being grandiose, well that’s all in the execution. My point is that it can be put in place cost-effectively. That doesn’t mean to say that they wont make a balls of it.

    And if you have a vision as to how future development on the western seaboard should go, then feel free to express that here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Eurorunner


    There is only one section of the the Western Rail Corridor which has a hope in hell of providing a decent service and adequet passenger numbers and that is Athenry-Ennis in order to provide a Limerick-Ennis-Galway Inter-City service.

    I'll take it that you consede that Limerick to Galway is feasible then - if implemented effectively.
    Maybe Tuam in time
    That time is now.
    How many skyscrapers are on the Knock skyline which resulted from the same "regional development" it was meant bring during the last 20 years? The reality is that it is a total myth that the WRC will have the likes of Intel and Google moving to Swinford.
    Intel? Google? rofl...now yer movin' into crazy talk mode :eek:
    tailbacks on the N17
    There shouldnt be signal crossings on a national route.

    Another thing, the economy around here is booming and the WRC has played no part in this fact to date.
    Well, it couldnt have done, could it :rolleyes:. So alls well with the world, and we've reached economic nirvana. Thats now - will things always look so rosy. Looking to the future,what steps are being taken to ensure that the regions are well placed to provide for its inhabitants economically and in terms of quality of life. The benefits of something like this will be felt in the medium term AND the long term. The whole reason this island has such an infrastructural defecit is because we can't see farther ahead than our noses.
    How will a single-track railway line ......provide a meaningful rail service let alone regional development?
    It can provide a meaningful rail service. The inference that it provides regional development - well, i never said that. However, nobody can deny that it would contribute towards regional development right?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 756 ✭✭✭Zaph0d


    Why doesn't P11 put more effort into communicating their proposals for transport development in the west of Ireland rather than attacking the western based initiatives they find stupid? P11 seems to have plenty of decent ideas for rail in limerick, galway and cork so why not emphasise promoting these rather than putting out a negative message?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭sliabh


    Zaph0d wrote:
    P11 seems to have plenty of decent ideas for rail in limerick, galway and cork so why not emphasise promoting these rather than putting out a negative message?
    To be fair to P11, I think they do both. And you have to be aggressive at shooting down the daft ideas before they take funding from the good ones.

    One reason the WRC is a really bad idea is that it doesn't tie in with the Government's regional development strategy (itself a political sell out). If you want balanced regional development then all the various initiatives should be joined up.

    But then the decentralisation plan didn't pay much head to the plan either, so that will hardly slow down the government from considering the WRC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭narommy


    I had an idea about this before. A QBC instead of rail line.

    If there was enough room for two lanes just put down a road on the path of the old track. Then bar all traffic from using it except busses.(that being the problem)

    I think it would be good because.

    -It would be cheaper. to build and to buy busses for it
    -Faster to build.
    -Require less maintenance.
    -It could be run to an accurate timetable (because there would be no other traffic on the route)
    -It would be flexible as busses could go into the towns (instead of small villages that have small population). The service could be more frequent.

    I think that rail for a sparce population in a large and risky proposition.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭sliabh


    narommy wrote:
    I had an idea about this before. A QBC instead of rail line.

    If there was enough room for two lanes just put down a road on the path of the old track. Then bar all traffic from using it except busses.(that being the problem)

    I think it would be good because.

    -It would be cheaper. to build and to buy busses for it
    -Faster to build.
    -Require less maintenance.
    -It could be run to an accurate timetable (because there would be no other traffic on the route)
    -It would be flexible as busses could go into the towns (instead of small villages that have small population). The service could be more frequent.

    I think that rail for a sparce population in a large and risky proposition.
    You are effectively building a new 2 lane road. It makes more sense to upgrade the exisitng road network to dual carraigeway. Which is pretty much what is planned.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement