Garda confidence survey, believable ?

gurramok

News story here says that certain sections of Irish society have varying levels of confidence in the Garda.

*snip*
Dubliners are almost evenly divided on the issue, while confidence in the force is lowest among younger people, urban dwellers and the less well-off C2DE social group.
In the 18-24 age group, 40 per cent have confidence in the fairness and impartiality of the Garda, 54 per cent do not and 5 per cent have no opinion.

Confidence in the force rises steadily among older age groups. Of those aged over 65, 74 per cent have confidence in the force, just 22 per cent do not, and 4 per cent have no opinion. In Dublin 48 per cent have confidence in the force, 46 per cent do not and 7 per cent have no opinion. The highest confidence in the Garda is to be found in Munster, where 68 per cent have confidence in the force, 27 per cent do not and 5 per cent have no opinion.

Farmers are the social group with the highest regard for the Garda: 71 per cent of farmers have confidence in the force, 22 per cent do not and 6 per cent have no opinion.
*snip*


Is the above a true reflection of opinion in Irish society of confidence in the force ?

I notice 'the younger you are, the less well off you are and more urbanised you are', the confidence level shrinks.

As my demographic and profile would fit into this pattern, the survey is certainly showing some reflection of opinion where i live.

AmenToThat

Originally posted by gurramok


Is the above a true reflection of opinion in Irish society of confidence in the force ?

I have no idea what Irish society in general thinks of the gardai but I do know that among my friends/family there is no confidence in the gardai to be fair and impartial.

Sparks

Given the recent history of crimes committed by Gardai, combined with the total lack of any effective internal policing within the Gardai, it's hardly a surprise that people don't trust them anymore. I know that I personally don't. The majority of them may well be hard-working sods who do a difficult job, and I can appreciate that - but the minority who abuse their position so seriously don't exactly wear distinguising marks on their uniform, so you have to mistrust all of them.

Villain

Originally posted by gurramok
Farmers are the social group with the highest regard for the Garda: 71 per cent of farmers have confidence in the force, 22 per cent do not and 6 per cent have no opinion.

Is that why they always leave large amounts of Whiskey into the stations at xmas;)

Wouldn't trust half of them as far as I would throw, including members of my family who are Guards!

chill

Originally posted by gurramok
Is the above a true reflection of opinion in Irish society of confidence in the force ?

I would say that it understates the confidence.

Most people I know and talk to have great confidence in the Garda, as I do. Most people who don't have either been caught speeding or some other infringement or are youths who resent being tackled for drunkenness or other appalling behaviour.
If people have respect for the Garda they will receive respect. The vast majority of garda are excellent decent people though naturally they are like any groups in society and have a few bad apples that slip through the net.
We are incredibly lucky to have probably the best police forces in Europe.

Lemming

Originally posted by chill
If people have respect for the Garda they will receive respect. The vast majority of garda are excellent decent people though naturally they are like any groups in society and have a few bad apples that slip through the net.

I can remember the exact moment my faith in the Gardai was shattered. Up until that moment I'd had a fairly high regard for them, even after my older sister was hit over the back of the head with a truncheon by one and the absolute fiasco which ensued in dealing with them.

I was waiting outside Peggs in Kildare St., Dublin - 17/18 at the time and just waiting for my then g/f and a couple of my friends to come out of the club after closing time. I'd gotten my coat and was outside already. Apparently the gardai were called 'cause a bag got stolen or some such. What I witnessed (and received also) was nothing short of pig-ignorant abuse. I was standing quietly (and I mean quietly) outside the railings overlooking the entrance to the club and got told to "F*ck off like a little knacker" before I got my head kicked in, as did just about every other person there (age average about 18/19) in an attempt to clear the club. No mentions of "please leave" or "go home". It was "f8ck off yis little f*cking scumbags" etc etc.

Now what was that about giving respect and getting it? :rolleyes:

After that most of my experiences have been mostly in a similar vein, with a few golden moments, but the negatives far outweighed the good. I have no record, I do not get involved in fights or otherwise cause trouble.

We are incredibly lucky to have probably the best police forces in Europe.

LOL omg that was funny .......

We have one of the best force for covering it's own corruption in Europe. I accept that it's a minority doing it, but the problem is that it's becoming so pervasive that it's all people ever encounter.

chill

Originally posted by Lemming
We have one of the best force for covering it's own corruption in Europe. I accept that it's a minority doing it, but the problem is that it's becoming so pervasive that it's all people ever encounter.

What evidence have you that the Irish police force is not less corrupt that almost every single force in the world ? A few highly hyped incidents in the news comics ?

In my experience the Garda treat the public with exceptional respect and those that are on the receiving end of a hiding deserve it.

Sparks

Originally posted by chill
In my experience the Garda treat the public with exceptional respect and those that are on the receiving end of a hiding deserve it.

Live in Outer Mongolia then, do we?

chill

Originally posted by Sparks
Live in Outer Mongolia then, do we?

One would think so going by the behavour of those thugs. I and many others were absolutely delighted the Garda beat the sh** out them that day. It was an organised premeditated riot.

Ajnag

We are incredibly lucky to have probably the best police forces in Europe.

---

And you know this from what? Have you got links, or is this based on a factual acessment after traviling around europe?

I know from experiance that the dutch police are the best I have encountered to date, Polite, respectful, informative, and on the whole very friendly.and no generalisations please before you start, the dutch are a hard working multi national multi racial crowd with a high percentage of puritan calvenists.It just so happens that they are also tolerant.

The cops here are savages for the most part, Ive only met the young few who give me any hope of a modern police, and it aint much at that.The guy getting beaten in that pic stepped in to stop the guard betting a young woman.

Did the guards salvage any dignity, did they feck, went and threatened a baton strike to protect the guilty.We need to address this seriously in this country.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Ajnag
no generalisations please before you start

[...]

The cops here are savages for the most part

Okie dokie so.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Sparks
Live in Outer Mongolia then, do we?

Something I've never figured out: of all the public demonstrations that routinely take place in this country, how come only the one that had its own pet camera crew along sustained an "unprovoked" attack from the police?

Zulu

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Something I've never figured out: of all the public demonstrations that routinely take place in this country, how come only the one that had its own pet camera crew along sustained an "unprovoked" attack from the police?

...never figured out!?!

Because the media were expecting trouble from the anarchists after the G8 riots. If the said people had arrived the Gaurds would have got away with it, but they didn't.

Lets not forget, the Gaurds weren't wearing their numbers in this instance - why not? - Because it was premeditated. A premeditated attack on the public. How does that sound? What happened? Surly heads rolled? - One guy, moved to desk duty pending further investigation. Who's investigating? It's a joke.

This should have been the watershed for an independent internal affairs type group, but to this day the Guards are answerable to nobody. It's sickening.

The Guards are a joke.

Figure it out!

bonkey

Originally posted by chill
It was an organised premeditated riot.

Thats why they policeman in the picture is in plain-clothes without a helmet....because he's dealing with an organised premeditated riot by scumbags out to cause trouble!!!!!

mycroft

One would think so going by the behavour of those thugs. I and many others were absolutely delighted the Garda beat the sh** out them that day. It was an organised premeditated riot.

Okay just remember.

1. No Gardaí injured

2. No property damage

3. No members of the public claiming injury, aside from people making assault claims againist Gardaí.

I'm a little unclear, where was the riot?

Something I've never figured out: of all the public demonstrations that routinely take place in this country, how come only the one that had its own pet camera crew along sustained an "unprovoked" attack from the police?

If you turn up at any protest theres usually several people with home video cameras of the type used to record those images.

Zulu

Originally posted by bonkey
Thats why they policeman in the picture is in plain-clothes without a helmet....because he's dealing with an organised premeditated riot by scumbags out to cause trouble!!!!!

Absoulte rubbish.
There was no roit.
Where are you talking about???

seamus

Originally posted by Zulu
Absoulte rubbish.
There was no roit.
Where are you talking about???

Obviously sarcasm is lost on some people

Zulu

Originally posted by seamus
Obviously sarcasm is lost on some people

My Bad - taught you were a crazy, crazy person.

bonkey

Originally posted by Zulu
taught you were a crazy, crazy person.

Well, that much is possibly true....but that comment *was* meant in sarcasm/jest

jc

chill

Originally posted by Ajnag
We are incredibly lucky to have probably the best police forces in Europe.

---

And you know this from what? Have you got links, or is this based on a factual acessment after traviling around europe?

As I Said - that's my experience and opinion. I've been involved with young people for many years through schools and local groups.
Where are the links and evidence for the wild claims that the Garda are corrupt ? Other than a few small incidents... and completely out of context, unsubstantiated blurred images.. ?

I know from experiance that the dutch police are the best I have encountered to date, Polite, respectful, informative, and on the whole very friendly.and no generalisations please before you start, the dutch are a hard working multi national multi racial crowd with a high percentage of puritan calvenists.It just so happens that they are also tolerant.

I had two college student acquaintences locked up for 48 hours after a football macth there five or six years ago. They were abused and spat at by the police for doing absolutely nothing. Once of them was actually deaf and they weren't involved in anything that could have remotely justified their treatment.
So much for the Dutch.

The cops here are savages for the most part, Ive only met the young few who give me any hope of a modern police, and it aint much at that.The guy getting beaten in that pic stepped in to stop the guard betting a young woman.

I believe they are far better than in any other countries. The vast majority of them are polite, respectful and professional. Those rioters were pre meditated and intent on causing trouble.

Lemming

Originally posted by chill
Where are the links and evidence for the wild claims that the Garda are corrupt ? Other than a few small incidents... and completely out of context, unsubstantiated blurred images.. ?

"A few small incidents"?? Incidents that have had SERIOUS implications for the integrity of the body itself. Serious corruption exposed in Donegal that has called umpteen cases (outside the scope of the actual investigation) by those involved to be cast in doubt, a whitewash investigation over the mayday "riots" in which not a single member questioned could recall who else was there with them on the day (which I find extrordinarily disturbing), fabricating charges to counter complaints against the gardai, beating up suspects in custody using blankets and telephone directories to mask bruising, etc.

Corruption feeds corruption chill. Turning a blind eye feeds it. Covering feeds corruption. The irish police force is shockingly corrupt to it's core. The large body of officers may not be involved in it, but they're turning a blind eye to it, and are - in their own terminology for prosecution - accomplissant to the incidents.

I have (very reputable) sources Chill, so I hear things that you would probably laugh at and say I was bullsh*tting they're that off-the-wall insane, but they're from the horse's mouth so .....

How about I mention a story about an engish stag-party in temple bar a few years ago?? I wonder what you'd say if I told you the end result?

Those rioters were pre meditated and intent on causing trouble.

That would be why the gardai weren't in riot gear nor had the street cordoned off?

mycroft

Can't help noticing you didn't make any reference to support your "premediatated riot" comments.

I think you've got selective memory going on, you'll ignore or twist the facts to suit you, the wrong doings, assaults, planted evidence, and corruption which doesn't fit in with your rose tinted view of the village copper on his bicycle.

chill

Originally posted by mycroft
Okay just remember.
1. No Gardaí injured
2. No property damage
3. No members of the public claiming injury, aside from people making assault claims againist Gardaí.

I'm a little unclear, where was the riot?

I would suggest that that is the proof of how successful and brilliantly the Garda carried out their duty that day. Their job is to protect society against these kinds of anarchists and it seems to me and many other Irish people that they did their job well that day. It's no coincidence that the only major riot for years happened when these thugs made their appearance.

Lemming

Originally posted by chill
I would suggest that that is the proof of how successful and brilliantly the Garda carried out their duty that day. Their job is to protect society against these kinds of anarchists and it seems to me and many other Irish people that they did their job well that day. It's no coincidence that the only major riot for years happened when these thugs made their appearance.

My initial reaction was:


But on reflection, this HAS to be the following:

Sparks

Yeah. Chill, I know most trolls believe that either
1) It's great fun to troll; or
2) Trolling stimulates conversation.

But in reality, it's just annoying.

Kappar

Where are the links and evidence for the wild claims that the Garda are corrupt ?

Well if you read this document you will see evidence that resulted in an independent committee stating that "persons held in certain police establishments in Ireland ran a not inconsiderable risk of being physically ill-treated"

Also read the rest of the documents here

I would agree with the CPT's P.O.V. based on personal experience.

Zulu

Originally posted by chill
I would suggest that that is the proof of how successful and brilliantly the Garda carried out their duty that day. Their job is to protect society against these kinds of anarchists and it seems to me and many other Irish people that they did their job well that day. It's no coincidence that the only major riot for years happened when these thugs made their appearance.

:rolleyes:
sure thing chill. Are you a Guard perhaps? Or do you only read "the Guardai Times"?

bonkey

Originally posted by chill
I would suggest that that is the proof of how successful and brilliantly the Garda carried out their duty that day. Their job is to protect society against these kinds of anarchists and it seems to me and many other Irish people that they did their job well that day. It's no coincidence that the only major riot for years happened when these thugs made their appearance.

So let me understand what you're saying...

The only say where we had a major riot for years is the day where we didn't have any damage, hurt, or, indeed, riotous activity of any discernible nature due to the brilliance of our gardai.

So...you classify "situation proactively contained before a riot broke out" as "the only major riot in years".

I'm pretty sure the english language isn't meant to be abused that way.

jc

bdiddy

For a start i have confidence in the Gardai, my only comment on this thread is that the whole argument on wheter we have a capable or corrupt police force is been based on the actions of a handful of Gardai on one day whe not even in uniform.

Sparks

Originally posted by bdiddy
my only comment on this thread is that the whole argument on wheter we have a capable or corrupt police force is been based on the actions of a handful of Gardai on one day whe not even in uniform.

Actually, it hasn't been. I just posted those photos as one well-known example. There have been other well-known examples, and many more not-so-well-known ones.
On top of which, it's not just the Gardai who were out of uniform and doing the whole soccer thug impression thing, it's the ones who refused to identify them at a later date, and the way it exposed the internal mechanism the Gardai have (or don't have) for internal investigations.

On a side note Bonkey - how far can chill go down his road before he's acknowleged as a troll?

Lemming

Originally posted by bdiddy
For a start i have confidence in the Gardai, my only comment on this thread is that the whole argument on wheter we have a capable or corrupt police force is been based on the actions of a handful of Gardai on one day whe not even in uniform.

The gardai have long "been known" to be as corrupt as hell from a long way before the may-day "riots" bdiddy unfortunately

The thing in Donegal, tbh, is going to be the force's achilles heel. The investigation against a couple of detectives has blossomed into every single case they've ever touched and every other person who worked with them on those cases, etc, etc.

And then there's the joe-bloggs incidents of which there are plenty.

I've met and dealt with gardai who were brilliant, but for every one like that, i seem to encounter one who's a total gobsh*te and their partner who turns a blind eye

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Zulu
Because the media were expecting trouble from the anarchists after the G8 riots.

...and yet only "Indy"media were there. I wonder why?

Lets not forget, the Gaurds weren't wearing their numbers in this instance - why not? - Because it was premeditated. A premeditated attack on the public.

As, of course, happens every time a group of peaceful protestors take to the streets.

Right?

Sparks

Originally posted by oscarBravo
...and yet only "Indy"media were there. I wonder why?

Actually, they weren't the only media there - after all, this all happened less than a two-minute walk from the Irish Times offices on D'Oiler Street. And there were several journalists walloped about a bit as well, which was a factor in the large press coverage the incident received.

chill

Originally posted by Lemming
My initial reaction was:

SNIPPED ABUSIVE CARTOONS

Abuse doesn't impress me. If you can't stand someone taking an opposing view then try to stick to the same rules I have to stick by.

bonkey

Originally posted by bdiddy
my only comment on this thread is that the whole argument on wheter we have a capable or corrupt police force is been based on the actions of a handful of Gardai on one day whe not even in uniform.

Kappar's post (and others) would tend to disprove what you're saying there.

jc

Lemming

Originally posted by chill
Abuse doesn't impress me. If you can't stand someone taking an opposing view then try to stick to the same rules I have to stick by.

I have no problems with opposing views. I do have a problem with trolls however, which the associated posts by yourself very much appear to be.

Added to some fairly cloud-cuckoo-land commentary and you get my afore-mentioned reaction.

Oh, and what makes you think I'm trying to impress you? Your commentary has left me less than impressed already.

Zulu

---

Lets not forget, the Gaurds weren't wearing their numbers in this instance - why not? - Because it was premeditated. A premeditated attack on the public.

---

"As, of course, happens every time a group of peaceful protestors take to the streets.

Right?"

Oscarbravo, I'm not sure I understand you here, what is your point???

mycroft

and yet only "Indy"media were there. I wonder why?

Indymedia was given footage from two college students who were there with cameras. In fact the cameraman whose stills those images come from was assaulted by a Gardaí and the rest of the images shown the next day on rte, and later on primetime was from the two students.

One Irish Indo (a bastion of left wing subversion) photographer was assaulted arrested and later charged with assaulting a Gardaí (later dropped)

The video footage (uneditted) has been taken by the DPP and is being used in the prosecution of five Gardaí so if it had been staged etc, I think they'd have know about it now and dropped the cases.

Who says only leftwingers can be conspiracy theorists.

Abuse doesn't impress me. If you can't stand someone taking an opposing view then try to stick to the same rules I have to stick by.

And yet you think it's entirely justifibly for the police to kick the crap out of people who's politics you disagree with.

You offer no explaination or justification which proves the police "stopped" a riot before it happened.

bonkey

OK - lets just kick this in the head right here......

The mods have been asked several times to ban people because someone / everyone has decided their trolling.

How many times have you seen us do it?

Just because you cannot believe someone's attitude doesn't make them a troll, and I find this particularly true when it comes to politics.

If chill is willing to civilly discuss/debate his stance, then he can take any stance he likes - same as everyone else. If you think he's a troll, then don't discuss/debate with him. Stop hitting that Reply button.

What always gets me is that its not trolls who break up threads. Its everyone else either telling them they're a troll, or extolling to everyone else that they should ignore the troll. If you think its a troll, don't feed it.

If you don't want to discuss something with someone, there is no-one forcing you to read or reply to their posts......but I will not support banning someone because their stance is universally unpopular, nor do I believe the other mods will.

Now, if anyone has a problem with that policy, I would strongly suggest that you look at the stickied thread for discussing the rules, and bring it up there. This is not the appropriate place.

I would also point out that - as of 16:22 - not one single person has reported any post on this thread.....which is the only action you're supposed to take regarding a post you have a problem with.

jc

chill

Originally posted by Kappar
Well if you read this document you will see evidence that resulted in an independent committee stating that "persons held in certain police establishments in Ireland ran a not inconsiderable risk of being physically ill-treated"

It is clear from this report that the visitors only collected 'reports' and 'claims' of ill-treatment. There was no investigation involved in this visit and no accusations against the Garda. Every day there are all kinds of disreputable thugs that make all kinds of fictitious accusations against the Garda for obvious motives.
In fact the report as a whole was an endorsement of the high standards maintained by the Garda and supports my own views.

Also read the rest of the documents here

This is a library of documents. If you have one that makes a valid point then post it.

I would agree with the CPT's P.O.V. based on personal experience.

This was a report that did not carry out any investigation into any of the allegations made against the Gardai. Their conclusion was essentially an endorsement of the vast majority of Garda behaviour.

chill

Originally posted by Sparks
Yeah. Chill, I know most trolls believe that either
1) It's great fun to troll; or
2) Trolling stimulates conversation.
But in reality, it's just annoying.

I'm not interested in exchanging personal abuse with you. If you have a point to make then make it.,

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Zulu
Oscarbravo, I'm not sure I understand you here, what is your point???

In simple terms: street protests are policed on a routine basis without any of this type of incident. For some reason, a number of gardai attacked this one particular protest, and now it's being held up as somehow typical.

• It's only typical if it happens more often than not.
• How come it's the same type of protests that always seem to get attacked by police everywhere in the world?

I've heard stories of extreme provokation of the police during that event. I don't have a source for them, so I'm not going to try to defend the behaviour of the individuals on the day - but for the reasons stated above, I remain open-minded about the whole incident.

Sparks

Originally posted by chill
I'm not interested in exchanging personal abuse with you. If you have a point to make then make it.,

Very well, my point is that your views are so unsupported by documented fact, and so blatently and obviously incorrect, that no reasonable person who was in any way reasonably informed about the world they live in could maintain them. And since even a cursory search for information (and if you can come here, you can go to www.google.ie ) would provide sufficent evidence that what we're telling you is simple fact, I conclude that you cannot seriously hold those views and must in fact be proposing them for your own amusement.

Kappar

It is clear from this report that the visitors only collected 'reports' and 'claims' of ill-treatment. There was no investigation involved in this visit and no accusations against the Garda. Every day there are all kinds of disreputable thugs that make all kinds of fictitious accusations against the Garda for obvious motives.
In fact the report as a whole was an endorsement of the high standards maintained by the Garda and supports my own views.

No it investigated the claims and they were supported by medical evidence. I refer you to section II A 2 (12) "It should also be noted that, in certain of the cases examined during the visit, other evidence gathered by the CPT’s delegation (e.g. from custody records, information provided by police officers) tended to support the allegations of ill-treatment received." The Garda though didn't continue any investagations which is a deplorable situation. But a situation the CPT can't force the Garda to do. In fact a head guy in the Garda on the Ptime time show said the couldn't invetagte them casue the didn;t know who the were but prime time managed to find out by looking a the reconds for the day in question. Not much investigation in the garda then so.

This is a library of documents. If you have one that makes a valid point then post it.

The Library contains documents that are all published independently by the CPT that all detail abuse within the garda. All the reports are in the same format so if it is evidence that you are after the read all the reports.

This was a report that did not carry out any investigation into any of the allegations made against the Gardai. Their conclusion was essentially an endorsement of the vast majority of Garda behaviour.

It carried out all the investigation it needed for the purposes of the report. I am satisfied with the integrity of the report. I have no reason to believe that the CPT would lie or act without proper skills. If you have contra-beliefs I suggest you find a plausable reason instead of saying that they didn;t invetigate when crearly they did.

Sparks

Originally posted by chill
It is clear from this report that the visitors only collected 'reports' and 'claims' of ill-treatment. There was no investigation involved in this visit and no accusations against the Garda.

In fact chill, the reason that these never went beyond reports and claims of ill-treatment is because there were never any serious investigations begun, because the Gardai do not have any kind of effective internal investigations branch, as we've been saying here for a bit now.
So in effect, you're saying that they're innocent because they didn't investigate. Or, to put it more graphically:

chill

Originally posted by mycroft
Indymedia was given footage from two college students who were there with cameras. In fact the cameraman whose stills those images come from was assaulted by a Gardaí and the rest of the images shown the next day on rte, and later on primetime was from the two students.

I saw all of the video on the news the next day - in my view it showed rioters attacking a tiny number of garda who weren't even kitted out for a riot, which is a disgrace. Clearly the Garda weren't expecting the level of incitement and violence shown by the anarchists. The rest of the images are unreliable as images can be used to suport any view if they are spun that way.

One Irish Indo (a bastion of left wing subversion) photographer was assaulted arrested and later charged with assaulting a Gardaí (later dropped)

Then he should have behaved better. I would put my trust in the Garda that arrested him ahead of any 'photographer'.

And yet you think it's entirely justifibly for the police to kick the crap out of people who's politics you disagree with.

So because you have a thing about the Gardai you think it's ok to abuse anyone who disagrees with you...

You offer no explaination or justification which proves the police "stopped" a riot before it happened.

I have no responsibility to 'prove' the gardai did anything. You are making the accusations against the Gardai. You are smearing our police service and in my opinion it is You that needs to offer the evidence. I see nothing so far.
I am perfectly willing to accept that there are bad apples in the Gardai. I had a run in with one about ten years ago. They are there alright. But it is wrong to smear a whole service of thousands of underpaid and overworked Gardai with the stain of a few.
And I have no association whatsoever, nor have I ever had, with the Gardai or any related service.

mycroft

From the report

"One person interviewed in Cork Prison alleged that, the day before, four or five police officers had dragged him down the stairs at the Anglesea Street police facilities and repeatedly struck him with batons. Following his arrival at Cork, the prison doctor had noted “4 fresh marks on back, prior to committal”. Upon medical examination by the delegation’s doctors, the person concerned was found to display two recent red horizontal bruises measuring approximately 3 x 9 cm, respectively in the left and right upper lumbar/kidney area, and a further similar bruise in the left shoulder region; he also displayed a number of abrasions and smaller bruises on the legs. "

Interesting use of inverted comma's around the word "claim" there chill. Because thats pretty damning.

The fact is we have no effective recourse if confronted with Police brutality or corruption, and without those vital safe guards, corruption and brutality has grown and become unchecked, and rampant.

In the aftermath of the mayday business, a former british police commissioner wrote a short piece in the Irish Times, about the Gardaí he announced he would be "terrified" to go into Gardaí custody, because of the unacountably of the Gardaí.

I've heard stories of extreme provokation of the police during that event. I don't have a source for them, so I'm not going to try to defend the behaviour of the individuals on the day - but for the reasons stated above, I remain open-minded about the whole incident.

Firstly Gardaí are only supposed to strike people in the head with batons when the fear directly for their life or the lifes of others.

Seeing as nobody was injuried and neither were any Gardaí care to explain the reckless abandon which Gardaí crack skulls?

Secondly fine I'm sure there was some name calling etc....But y'know what "the lads just lost the heads a bit", is not a justifible defense. These people are supposed to be trained in crowd control, and considering the abuse they probably get on an average Saturday night, they should be used to it. Thats not a defense.

chill

Originally posted by Sparks
In fact chill, the reason that these never went beyond reports and claims of ill-treatment is because there were never any serious investigations begun, because the Gardai do not have any kind of effective internal investigations branch, as we've been saying here for a bit now.
So in effect, you're saying that they're innocent because they didn't investigate. Or, to put it more graphically:

I'm ignoring the monkey level humour.

I happen to believe in the justice system. You may be happy to assume guilt on people based on an accusation - I am not. The report doesn't accuse the gardai, and they were found guilty of nothing.

It is interesting that you are happy to condemn and smear the gardai based on the word of a few poeple yet you are not willing to accept the word of a Garda on the guilt of others.

A souble standard in my opinion.

Sparks

Originally posted by chill
I'm ignoring the monkey level humour.

Actually, that image isn't humour, anymore than a cross would be considered humour.

I happen to believe in the justice system.

Which is a seperate system to the Gardai.

You may be happy to assume guilt on people based on an accusation - I am not.

I'm not either. I'm also not willing to assume innocence without at least a cursory investigation. But we don't see even that, and so we have no way of determining whether or not the gardai involved are innocent or not - and so we don't trust them because we cannot reasonably do so.

The report doesn't accuse the gardai, and they were found guilty of nothing.

You cannot be found guilty of something without an investigation into the accusation. Once again, it's a case of "Hear no evil, see no evil"...

It is interesting that you are happy to condemn and smear the gardai based on the word of a few poeple yet you are not willing to accept the word of a Garda on the guilt of others.

Actually, I'm not happy doing it. I'd like an honest and trustworthy police force in my country. And it's not a smear. We don't have a trustworthy police force. And that's not someone's opinion I'm basing that on, it's the number of court cases where gardai have been found guilty of crimes while on duty, the number of incidents where there is clearly a need for investigation and reform yet none is seen, the sheer mafiaesque attitude of the Gardai as a group, and the sheer level of abuse involved in these cases.

mycroft

I saw all of the video on the news the next day - in my view it showed rioters attacking a tiny number of garda who weren't even kitted out for a riot, which is a disgrace. Clearly the Garda weren't expecting the level of incitement and violence shown by the anarchists. The rest of the images are unreliable as images can be used to suport any view if they are spun that way.

Then I think you should watch it again. Because if you can point out a single instance of anyone throwing a punch at a kick, that isn't a Gardaí you'll need to pick my jaw of the floor. There isn't one

Then he should have behaved better. I would put my trust in the Garda that arrested him ahead of any 'photographer'.

Pay attention chill. The charges were dropped because they were groundless. In fact no one, read that, no one, arrested by the Gardaí has been prosecuted. And all charges remaining are breaches of the public order act section IV and VI. No one is facing assault on a Gardaí charges. Care to explain that?

So because you have a thing about the Gardai you think it's ok to abuse anyone who disagrees with you...

No essentially you think it was right to kick the snot out of them because you disagree with their politics, you've offered no evidence of any wrong doing by the protests, and the criminal justice system, which you admire so, appears to disagree with your assesment.

I have no responsibility to 'prove' the gardai did anything. You are making the accusations against the Gardai. You are smearing our police service and in my opinion it is You that needs to offer the evidence. I see nothing so far.

The fact that five Gardaí are facing assault charges (and no protestors) from that mayday business. The Morris tribunal which has turned up Gardaí planting explosives, and drugs in donegal, intimidation of witnesses. Not to mention the inspector who yesterday was court over informing someone charges againist them could be dropped for €30,000.

I've plenty of evidence.

Lemming

Originally posted by chill
I'm ignoring the monkey level humour.

How about you start looking at what you're posting chill. It's of the "they can do no wrong" variety. Blinkered and extrordinarily naieve to say the least.

The report doesn't accuse the gardai, and they were found guilty of nothing.

Because not a _SINGLE_ garda on duty that day could recall any other garda who was on duty with them. Hmmmmmmmm. Coincidence?? I think not.

Tell me chill, if I rob a bank, and you cover for me when the police come knocking, what does that make you?

So what happens when the police cover the police? :rolleyes:

And you're conveniently overlooking the implications of the Donegal corruption scandal.

A souble standard in my opinion.

Indeed. "Do as we say not as we do" to form a quote.


Oh, and incidentally I did a simple search on google.ie and came up with A LOT of information, quite a lot of it from official government sources, along with some quoted incidents stretching back into the 1970s for serious far-reaching abuse of garda power.

A simple search ......