Question concerning the Headscarf issue....

bonkey

Here's one that I heard mentioned in passing over the weekend that I can't get out of my head...

The French government is banning Muslim head-coverings as part of its "no overt religious symbols in schools" move.

What about beards?

Isn't it the Muslim religion (or some sects thereof at least) which say that men should never shave? By the same token that the headscarf can be an outward sign of religion, so can the beard.

Will the French government also mandate that all male students must be clean-shaven???

jc

Manach

Well I think is the Sikhs who must not cut their beards.

I guess the act would only say the beard should go if it was a religious symbol and not if it was say a fashion statement.

Then again, how many school goers grown beards?

bonkey

Originally posted by Manach
Well I think is the Sikhs who must not cut their beards.

That rings a bell....

I guess the act would only say the beard should go if it was a religious symbol and not if it was say a fashion statement.

Yup, but where is the line drawn? Only Sikh males (taking the above as being true) would be prevented from having beards?

Then again, how many school goers grown beards?

It only needs one.

jc

Klaus

They're also banning jewish skull caps and large christian crosses. The idea really doesn't seem to have a definate line that is strictly enforceable.

Seems more of a reactionary response towards growing religious persecution in french schools than anything to do with notions of the separation of church and state

mr_angry

We were banned from growing beards in my old school too. Not on religious grounds, but it was easily enforcable. I wouldn't be surprised if many French schools also had this rule already.

We were banned from having long hair aswell. God, I was SO repressed!

bdiddy

French schools are very easy-going at the best of times, i think this rule is stupid. People should be allowed practice thier religions to a certain degree. If a religions Sabbath falls on a Friday for example then this should be accomadated in school and work( provided it is not an unreasonable strain). Irish people should realise from history that discrimination amongst religions is to be avoided at all costs.


P.s. I don't think this was a intentionally discriminatory but it has turned out that way.

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by mr_angry
We were banned from growing beards in my old school too. Not on religious grounds, but it was easily enforcable. I wouldn't be surprised if many French schools also had this rule already.

We were banned from having long hair aswell. God, I was SO repressed!

The same school had a ban on any headware, boots and fellas shaving their head completely. If the school rules dictate that no one can wear any headwear whatsoever, religion should not be an issue. Its a simplistic view but people are making something out of nothing.

Sparks

This just passed the french parliment vote, 494 to 36...

Sand

The French arent the only ones passing laws against the headscarf. Way back in 1998 a woman in Germany was banned from taking a post as a teacher as she wore a headscarf. She argued in a 5 year court case that it was her right to wear te headscarf. She won, but the court also said there was nothing stopping laws being passed by German states to ban the wearing of the headscarf. So thats what theyre doing . Except this law is wholly aimed at the muslim headscarf, not at religious symbols in general. At least theyre being honest. Next thing you know theyll be .... ah Ill leave that for the more hysterically inclined.

Do religions consider beards to be religious symbols or just the result of guides to "a good life" as laid down by all religious, like only eating kosher food, fasting during lent, giving to charity and so on? If they do consider them religious then I guess the French government will be forced to break into peoples houses every morning and drag them kicking and screaming to the bathroom mirror. Or turn it over to the private sector and get Gilette and so on to sponsor it, like those charity gigs where people get their head shaved or their beard.

Victor

I think something like this could backfire with children being enroled in Muslim schools instead of state schools.

Now if only they'd ban make-up in their schools, they might get some support from the Muslim community.

uberwolf

Originally posted by bdiddy
provided it is not an unreasonable strain

what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? My understanding of the french situ is that they have decided that as a nation they are entitled to prioritise their wishes over an immmigrant populations.

If this view is near right then a friday sabbath would be unreasonable as it would require further adjustment by businesses already losing one day due to christian sabbath, another due to jewish sabbath, etc. As a nation they have agreed that the needs of the citizens dominate. I have no issue with that

*business wishes are far from the only view point and is used to illustrate

BuffyBot

TBH I think it is quite fair for state education facilities to demand this kind of behaviour from their pupils. I would have a problem if it wasn't being applied equally across all religions

Victor

Originally posted by BuffyBot
TBH I think it is quite fair for state education facilities to demand this kind of behaviour from their pupils. I would have a problem if it wasn't being applied equally across all religions

However, when it targets one religion more than others...

BuffyBot

However, when it targets one religion more than others...

I don't think the French are targetting one over the other. The Muslim population seem to feel that they are, but I don't think that is the intention.

uberwolf

Whats more can the French not have rules for France?

sanvean

Originally posted by Victor
However, when it targets one religion more than others...

I would say that it doesn't target more than one religion. it just so happens that the muslim religion pervades far more than christianity regarding acceptable clothing. therefore this is what is highlighted in the legal documents regarding overt religiosity.

there are better examples of discrimination against a religion that the muslims demonstrating outside the french embassy in ireland could've chosen. saudi arabia springs to mind, although i presume this would be lost on them.

Klaus

Originally posted by uberwolf
Whats more can the French not have rules for France?

Think there's plenty of reason to still debate the issue though. Many countries' goverments or even the public make decisions that may be harmful to minority groups of citizens, or even majority groups. Just think of the election of the freedom party to goverment in Austria, that resulted in the EU threatening their ejection from the community.

While I don't think that this legislation is as important an issue as they emergence of the far right in some european countries as electoral forces, but it is all the same a worrying development. There is always that if this works in France, then maybe they'll bring it to the EU.

mr_angry

In fairness to the EU's stance on Austria - they stepped in because Jorg Heinrich effectively held the majority party to ransom in order to have himself made Prime Minister. There were mass demonstrations in the streets because only 2% of the population had voted for his party. Not exactly democracy.

I really don't see how this law discriminates against Muslims in particular.

uberwolf

Originally posted by Klaus
Think there's plenty of reason to still debate the issue though. Many countries' goverments or even the public make decisions that may be harmful to minority groups of citizens, or even majority groups.

absolutely, I would contend though that as a nation they are entitled to express any level of comfort or discomfort with developments within their borders and furthermore act on it. And if immigrants don't like this they can leave. If they choose to live somewhere they should respect local wishes just as westeners are forced to do in the east.

this is a one off story but in someway serves to illustrate a point. A girl I worked with for the summer had been in France on erasmus for the previous year. One evening she was heading home and noticed she was being followed. The chap following her seemed to be "fiddling" with himself. Perhaps unwisely she confronted him as being followed and stared at was not uncommon behaviour by the local muslim men (she was a red head - they're not that common). Anyway your man's response to a polite request to abstain from publically masturbating over her was met with "as you're a woman I'm entitled to as I wish with you". Now everychance this chap was just a weirdo, but his justification is the principle reason I've picked up on that the French are changing things. The muslim treatment of women doesn't appear to conform to the western standard. As they're now in the west they should respect western wishes, even if that is a more liberal approach.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by uberwolf
The muslim treatment of women doesn't appear to conform to the western standard.

Are you just basing this on the behaviour of one weirdo a friend of yours encountered, or do you actually know Muslim people?
Also, I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that Muslim women wear scarfs because they're forced to or something. If you are, then that is (generally speaking) wrong. And in the cases where they are dictated to on what to wear (Iran, Saudi Arabia) that is down to the governing bodies in the country, not Islam as a religion.

uberwolf

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Are you just basing this on the behaviour of one weirdo a friend of yours encountered, or do you actually know Muslim people?

no on both counts, more an impression from over the years. I'm completely open to correction.

Also, I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that Muslim women wear scarfs because they're forced to or something. If you are, then that is (generally speaking) wrong. And in the cases where they are dictated to on what to wear (Iran, Saudi Arabia) that is down to the governing bodies in the country, not Islam as a religion. [/B]

on whose authority to the governing bodies decide this?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by uberwolf
no on both counts, more an impression from over the years. I'm completely open to correction.

There are non Muslim men who have a pretty low opinion of women, so maybe you shouldn't make a sweeping statement about an entire religion.

on whose authority to the governing bodies decide this?

Their own authority, what are you trying to get at exactly?

uberwolf

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
There are non Muslim men who have a pretty low opinion of women, so maybe you shouldn't make a sweeping statement about an entire religion.

accepted.

however by western standards men and women are not equal citizens in muslim countries. Personally I would deem demands that they wear scarves or hadjibs (sp) discrimanatory. French law demands equality. Ergo no scarves.

Their own authority, what are you trying to get at exactly?

shari'a (sp) law, I believe its called. Law based on religion. Making it standard in muslim countries (their choice) but allowing exportation to foreign countries in religious grounds. Its all based on a 2 line excerpt from the koran anyway, which - I believe - is very open to interpretation

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by uberwolf
Personally I would deem demands that they wear scarves or hadjibs (sp) discrimanatory. French law demands equality. Ergo no scarves.

Most muslim women chose to wear the scarfs, they don't deem it discrimantory so why should you or the French government?

shari'a (sp) law, I believe its called. Law based on religion. Making it standard in muslim countries (their choice) but allowing exportation to foreign countries in religious grounds. Its all based on a 2 line excerpt from the koran anyway, which - I believe - is very open to interpretation

Sharia law is law as given in the Quran.
I'm not sure what you're saying here, what is "it" and what is allowed to be exported?

bonkey

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Most muslim women chose to wear the scarfs, they don't deem it discrimantory so why should you or the French government?

For a man cautioning others about making sweeping generalisations, I assume you have some source to back this sweeping generalisation of your own up with??

jc

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bonkey
For a man cautioning others about making sweeping generalisations, I assume you have some source to back this sweeping generalisation of your own up with??

jc

I don't think I have a link to an survey questioning the entire female muslim population on the planet.
I know some muslim people, does that count? Everyone else who has decided that the women are being descrimated against haven't exactly backed that up either.

uberwolf

I think I'm saying that the fact that something is law in muslim countries because of religion doesn't mean that it should be accepted in another country on religious grounds or otherwise. Even if, as you say, muslim women wear hadjib's happily the french don't deem it part of a school uniform. which is a decision they're entitled to make.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by uberwolf
which is a decision they're entitled to make.

I don't agree with it or see why they're making such a big deal out of it, but you're right there.

bonkey

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
I know some muslim people, does that count?

Well, you questioned the validity of a source because it was based on the experiences of one person.

Is your "some Muslim people" any more reliable a cross-section of the massive number of cultures and nations where one finds Islam?

Everyone else who has decided that the women are being descrimated against haven't exactly backed that up either.

True. You, however, were the only one I saw cautioning others about making sweeping statements whilst apparently making sweeping statements to the same extent.

I wanted to see if thats what you were doing or if you actually had anything to support your sweeping generalisation to make it somehow more valid than the type of statment you were advising/encouraging others not to make.

Apparently not.

jc

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bonkey
Is your "some Muslim people" any more reliable a cross-section of the massive number of cultures and nations where one finds Islam?

It's a little more reliable than basing it on common misconceptions people have about the religion don't you think?
I'm not saying that because I know Muslim people that I'm an authority, I also don't think that saying most practising Muslim women choose to wear the head scarf is a baseless generalisation, it's a fact.

bonkey

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
I also don't think that saying most practising Muslim women choose to wear the head scarf is a baseless generalisation, it's a fact.

Well, if its a fact, and you know its a fact, then you should have no problem supplying us with the basis on which this fact was founded?

Otherwise, it most certainly is not a fact - or, at least, you have no way of knowing whether it is a fact or not.

The reason I'm making a point of this is because you slapped someone for making a sweeping generalisation. I've no problem with that - the rules do ask opinion to be presented as fact, sweeping generalisations are rarely (if ever) facts, and the one in question was not presented explicitly as an opinion.

But by the same token, I am asking you to either provide the basis for your so-called fact or accept that it is no more than another sweeping generalisation of the same type that you have suggested other people should not make.

I don't see where the problem is...all I'm asking is that you apply the same standards to your own posts as you are suggesting others do with theirs.

jc

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bonkey
But feel free to prove me wrong by providing me with the basis for your fact.

It's in the Quran, it's part of their religious beliefs.
If someone mentioned a Catholic making the sign of the cross would they have to link to that too?

Frank Grimes

Ok, (as far as I know), the basis that vast majority of practising Muslim women wear the scarf is because of what is said in Chapter 24, verse 31 of the Quran.

bug

I thought the basis of uniform and uniformity in schools was to minimise distraction and to instill discipline?If it is a non-denominational school I dont see what the problem is with banning ALL religious symbols.

Im not sure what the precise symbolism of the head scarf is to muslem women and by asking them to remove it what it implies to them, has it a huge implication it is bascially insulting ?

Being a catholic if someone asked me to remove a cross in school, which was possible, considering there was no jewelery aloud of any description, it was done.(I went to a convent school).

Religion is a personal thing and a private thing in my opinion and has no place in schools, unless of course you wish to send your child to a specific school which incorporates religious instruction into the curriculum. thats my view. Hard times-charles dickens, all the way

bonkey

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
It's in the Quran, it's part of their religious beliefs.

And that means that the vast majority of women automatically agree with it and choose to obey it. Really?

It is part of my religious beliefs (being nominally Catholic) that it is wrong to have sex outside marriage. Do you believe that the majority of Catholics support this notion....purely on the basis that its a part of their religion?

Do you believe that the majority of Catholics are opposed to contraception??? Thats part of the declared stances of their religion too, but I think you'll find that the majority of Catholic (or predominantly Catholic) nations have legalised all of these ,and they are availed of by far greater

If someone mentioned a Catholic making the sign of the cross would they have to link to that too?

See my above comments. I'm not talking about whether or not they do it....I'm asking whether or not they choose to do it.

Its clear that a majority (although I wouldn't be sure of how large a majority) of Muslim women wear the hajib (or use some other form of covering).....but it is far from clear that the vast majority choose it which is what you claimed, and which you still haven't supplied any credible evidence for.

jc

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bonkey
Its clear that a majority (although I wouldn't be sure of how large a majority) of Muslim women wear the hajib (or use some other form of covering).....but it is far from clear that the vast majority choose it which is what you claimed, and which you still haven't supplied any credible evidence for.

I have said practising muslim women in other posts (if I haven't I have been referring to practising Muslims).
Practising Muslims subscribe to what is said in the Quran.
I have given the Chapter and Verse which (I am almost sure) refers to women covering themselves.
If they are practising Muslims they are chosing to cover to themselves as per their beliefs.

uberwolf

Originally posted by uberwolf
principle reason I've picked up on The muslim treatment of women doesn't appear

I certainly intented that the above made it clear that I was expressing an opinion and not fact.

Victor

Originally posted by bug
I thought the basis of uniform and uniformity in schools was to minimise distraction and to instill discipline?If it is a non-denominational school I dont see what the problem is with banning ALL religious symbols.

I don't think many French schools wear uniforms.

Originally posted by bug
Im not sure what the precise symbolism of the head scarf is to muslem women and by asking them to remove it what it implies to them, has it a huge implication it is bascially insulting ?

It is seen as a piece of modesty wear and is worn by women and girls after puberty. Muslim women also see it as a way of avoiding the "degernerate" western culture of "image" - make-up, diets, fashion & fads (some parts of shopping centres in Saudi Arabia are set aside for women and children only, where the women can wear what they like). Some Christians would see even a modest one-piece swimsuit as immodest, nevermind a string bikini. http://www.wholesomewear.com/page-4.html

Originally posted by bug
Being a catholic if someone asked me to remove a cross in school, which was possible, considering there was no jewelery aloud of any description, it was done.(I went to a convent school).

I think there is a difference between a cross which is an actual symbol and a plain head scarf.

Originally posted by bug
Religion is a personal thing

So why prevent people from practicing in their own way?

halkar

This has been a long running issue in Turkey which is a Muslim country and girls not allowed to wear headscarf in schools. Which is a big debate there and still going on and protests and usual EU's bla bla about being against human rights stuff and now it is happening in France eventually in other EU countries maybe :rolleyes:

bug

some good points there victor...I can understand where you are coming from. Taking the issue in relations to schools, and how one wishes their children to be raised and instructed/taught.
As you say...

Originally posted by bug
Religion is a personal thing

So why prevent people from practicing in their own way?.

well the issue is that wearing of religious symbols is supposedly provoking/inciting hatred, so ppl practising it "in their own way" seems to be causing problems, which is possibly why the french government adressed it in the first place.
whether they are dealing with it correctly is another thing.
Maybe teaching tolerance and understanding of different religions in schools is perhaps the way forward rather than banning symbols outright.
But would parents agree to this would a muslim mother agree to her child being taught about christianity,its history etc?
I personally see religion as a "personal thing" and I dont see its position in schools, unless of course a particular school has that on its agenda/curriculum.

It is seen as a piece of modesty wear and is worn by women and girls after puberty. Muslim women also see it as a way of avoiding the "degernerate" western culture of "image" - make-up, diets, fashion & fads (some parts of shopping centres in Saudi Arabia are set aside for women and children only, where the women can wear what they like). Some Christians would see even a modest one-piece swimsuit as immodest, nevermind a string bikini. http://www.wholesomewear.com/page-4.html

..thats interesting, so its a cultural symbol too and one that is worn in opposition to "degernerate western culture" so its not really just a headscarf, I can see how that could be seen as offensive to kids sitting in a class with someone who is wearing a symbol that openly defies their culture. I wonder if I would get away with walking around some area in Iran "openly defying" their culture swinging my blonde (dyed) hair like something in a loreal ad, hypothetically. No i wouldnt want to insult them. I'm being the devils advocate here. .

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bug
thats interesting, so its a cultural symbol too and one that is worn in opposition to "degernerate western culture" so its not really just a headscarf, I can see how that could be seen as offensive to kids sitting in a class with someone who is wearing a symbol that openly defies their culture.

The reason Muslim women (i.e. most practising Muslim women) wear it is nothing to do with opposistion of Western culture, it's for religious reasons.
I'm sure some Muslim women who live in the West would view their wearing it as above, but for the most part it's religious.

bug

originally posted by victor Muslim women also see it as a way of avoiding the "degernerate" western culture of "image" - make-up, diets, fashion & fads (some parts of shopping centres in Saudi Arabia are set aside for women and children only, where the women can wear what they like).

Im going off to find the actual representation/meaning of the headscarf.:rolleyes:

http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=717&region=EN
found it. thank you frank.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bug
Im going off to find the actual representation/meaning of the headscarf.:rolleyes:

I posted where it is in the Quran earlier in this thread, the interpretation was taken from there.

Victor

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
The reason Muslim women (i.e. most practising Muslim women) wear it is nothing to do with opposistion of Western culture, it's for religious reasons. I'm sure some Muslim women who live in the West would view their wearing it as above, but for the most part it's religious.

I suppose this is where there is a blur between culture and religion. While many people would frown at the scantily clad 17 years olds outside the Wesley disco in Donnybrook, it would be enough to start a riot if they paraded themselves in the same way in some Muslim countries. At the same time wearing a swim suit or indeed being nude on a Spanish beach might be considered perfectly acceptable.

Also I'm not saying they wear headscaves to go against Western culture, but because their own culture endorses modesty, whereas Western culture permits much greater individuality and the corresponding immodesty of some.

Religion frames culture and culture frames religion.

lili

oops! i missed this thread:)

well, difficult debate... in a side the individual freedom and in another side the respect of domestic laws country, land of immigration.

first i would like to say that the laicity of french school never caused problemes until 3 or 4 years. means something has changed in the mentality of people.

personately, i think the headscarf is a violation of women rights. but i can understand that some muslim girls wear it for cultural reasons. i just find too bad that for this reasons, those girls don't follow sport, biology cours. i think it's also funny that this symbol is seen as a freedom one. i had the opportunity to go on moroccan beaches, it's quite sad to see those women completly weared, carying of the kids, while the husbands take good time swimming in swimming suit.

this renforcement law has a political reason, maybe those teen girls have good reason to protest, but what is worring is which sort of muslim faction is supporting them in france. that's unacceptable for a non muslim state. france is a democracy and obviously the french want keep the laicity in schools. religion freedom is perfectly respected in france, outside of school place people are totally free to pratrice as they want. religions and what the humans did with it are teached in history cours. the good part, what religions is supposed to teach is let at each confession outside school.
i think the best, would be to have in civil cours, a part allowed at the knowledge of other cultures and religions.

Victor

Sorry for dragging this up again. I found it interesting that bandannas were mentioned in the article - it's a possible opt-out that should keep most people happy.

(Sikhs never cut their hair and turbans are to keep the hair tidy / clean and cover their heads).

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/05/17/story148058.html

Turbans banned from schools in new French law
17/05/2004 - 21:09:12

Sikh schoolboys must exchange their turbans for a hair net when a new law banning religious apparel in France’s public schools takes effect in September.

The Sikh community was shocked today when Education Minister Francois Fillon made the announcement.

He also confirmed Muslim girls can only wear bandannas in schools that allow them, according to the minister.

Fillon spoke after education officials adopted – with some misgivings – a set of guidelines to help school officials apply the law, which was enacted in March after a marathon parliament debate.

The law forbids conspicuous religious symbols and attire in the classroom such as the Jewish skull cap and large Christian crosses, but it is chiefly aimed at the Muslim head scarf.

Fillon said later that an “arrangement” had been made with Sikhs to replace the traditional head gear with hair nets.

“We’ve come up with an arrangement,” Fillon said. “They accept wearing a hair net. It’s less aggressive, less showy,” he said.

Representatives of the small Sikh community of 5,000-7,000 said they were unaware of any such arrangement. On the contrary, they said, Sikh representatives had received a letter from a counsellor to Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, dated May 10, that provided “conditional assurance” that Sikh boys could wear turbans in class.

“We were told that we could wear turbans because we never posed a problem,” said Karmvir Singh, a Paris member of United Sikhs, expressing surprise.

“A hair net has no place and no meaning,” said the director of United Sikhs, Hardyal Singh, based in New York. “It’s appalling,” he added.

The school guidelines go beyond attire to forbid students from refusing certain courses – like physical education or biology – for religious reasons or rejecting professors based on their gender.

The guidelines also forbid absences for religious reasons beyond major holidays.

The new law is aimed at safeguarding the French principle of secularism, considered under threat by Muslim’s growing militancy over their identity and the practice by some girls of wearing head scarves to school.

arcadegame2004

"There were mass demonstrations in the streets because only 2% of the population had voted for his party." (Me angry)

Mr angry, the Freedom Party actually got 27% of the Austrian vote at the time of the crisis you are referring to. Also, Joerg Haider was NEVER the Austrian Prime Minister. Wolfgang Schussel of the Austrian Peoples' Party became Chancellor (Prime Minister) of Austria. Joerg Haider resigned as Freedom Party leader in farmer of Susanne Reiss-Passer. Just correcting you there.

I personally disagree with this move by the French Government. It plays into the hands of Al-Qaeda who are already using it to promote their portrayal of the West as an "oppressor of Muslims" - by which they mean ALL of the West, including Europe (not just Israel or the United States), e.g. there has already been an Al-Qaeda threat of bringing "remorse" to France unless they repeal the ban. I understand and support the idea of a secular state but this is religious oppression, which crosses the line between secularism and oppression in my view.

Wrestlemania

I am not to keen on the Islamic Relgion but I believe people should be allowed practice there relgion and their faith be respect weither it be Jew, Muslim, Gentile or whatever.

A head scarf it not going to do any harm it is a tradition and should be respected.

I understand school rules, I had very strict ones but were there for a reason this ban is not a viable reason and will cause resentment within the French and Wider Islamic Community.

pork99

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I understand and support the idea of a secular state but this is religious oppression, which crosses the line between secularism and oppression in my view.

Absolutely. I'm a secular humanist atheist but I find the French ban on headscarfs etc fairly offensive.

Among the core values of Western Democracy are freedom of expression and civil and religious liberty. The repression of peoples free expression of their beliefs belongs in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

In Saudi Arabia it's not just illegal for a Saudi citizen to be a non-Muslim, it's illegal not to be a Wahhabi Muslim. In Iran followers of the Bahhai religion have been tortured to death for converting from Islam. I've seen videos of people in Iran having hands cut off and one man being blinded for "looking at something immoral". Thank f*** I don't live in a society like those.

lili

i think you missed the point here. it's not a question of individual freedom. it's a political question.

bonkey

Originally posted by pork99
Absolutely. I'm a secular humanist atheist but I find the French ban on headscarfs etc fairly offensive.

Among the core values of Western Democracy are freedom of expression and civil and religious liberty. The repression of peoples free expression of their beliefs belongs in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

So do you support the rights of Satanists to openly worship and bear symbols of their religion?

jc