Police Summons

OfflerCrocGod

I realise this is not strictly PI but I cant figure a better place to post it....

Tonight I received a summons in the mail after 8:00PM in the night* stating

REQUIRE YOU TO APPEAR AT THE SAID SITTING TO ANSWER THE SAID ACCUSATION OFFENCE ALLEGED: THAT YOU,

On the 27-Aug-2003 at XX street a public place in dub did drive a vehicle to wit a pedal cycle** without due care and attention.
Contrary to Section 52(1) of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, as substituted by Section 50 of the Road traffic Act 1968 and Section 102 Road Traffic Act 161 as amended by Section 23 of the Road trafic Act 2002.

So what I'm wondering is what do all those numbers refer to?, in other words WHAT did I do?. I'd like to know what I'm being accused of before deciding to just trow this out. All the address and info on me in the summons are correct.... Has anyone ever been in this situation before?, what can I do?. The hearing is on during my exams and frankly I'm not going to waste time going to them without a really good reason. Can I just chuck it out? - it's from last summer!!.

The incident it refers to (I think) is when I was going down a road and two cops (bike/cycle cops) were heading toward me one of them verred in front of me to try and stop me (I didn't know at the time that is what he was trying to do - I didn't know they were cops, I was busy paying attention to the road) I just though he was distracted cause he was talking to his friend. So when he verred into my path I just avoided him otherwise we would have crashed. I continued down the road and near the end of the road (it's pretty short) the same copper slammed into the side of me and knocked me to the ground and off my bike. I didn't know it was him (I was flat on the road) so I just apologised and got back up once back up he just layed into me for being a bad cyclist - he gave me no info - and asked for my details which I gave; he gave out to me for listening to my music while cycling and saying I was a danger (it's an empty one way road, I was on the yellow lines) and so on... eventually I went off (down the road I wasn't meant to be on - he said nothing).

I have though nothing more of it since then, now I have this joke of a summons and I'm wondering WTF!!?. Talk about pencil pushing Nazis but this is pushing it! - So can any of you give me any sort of advice or explanation as to what can be done to me or I can do?. Any advice/comment would be helpful.


*Is that normal for court summons?, do they use the normal postal service, cause something is wrong with the time - I could just say I never received nothin'.

**5 Km/h:rolleyes:

Beruthiel

I would suggest you go see a solicitor, (first consultation free afaik) at least then you’ll know what exactly the charges are, if he suggests you need to have a solicitor in court and you cannot afford him go see someone in free legal aid

if you ignore this summons I suspect you will be fined, you don't need that on top of what you're already being charged with.

Doodah7

Also go to Attorney General's site where you can look up the specific sections of the road traffic Acts. At a guess and without looking them up I reckon they are cycling dangerously, cycling without taking due care, yadda yadda yadda.

I don't think you can ignore it. It may be worth trying to follow up with the Guard, even at this stage with a view to seeing if he would quash the summons.

SheroN

Ring up the gardai and explain your situation regarding exams etc and see if it can be rescheduled.

Hobart

[Edit] Just read the full Post[/Edit]
You must have been stopped and cautioned by a Guard. Send a solicitor to represent you. He can explain to the judge that you are sitting your exams. The judge will either:

1) List the case for another hearing

2) Fine you in your absence

3) Strike out the charge (if you lucky)

Also send Victor a PM on this. He is fairly up to date on Transport and the Law..

Sleipnir

well don't throw it in the bin. It's not a fine or jury duty.
If you just ignore it, on the day your case comes to court and you're not there, they're likely to issue a bench warrant.
Talk to a solicitor and write down exactly what happened; what time, where etc.

But, cycling down a one way street (irrespective of the fact that it wasn't busy and you were on the yellow lines) is illegal. And using a discman or whatever could easily be seen by a court as cycling "without due care & attention.

RicardoSmith

Were these motorcycle or bicycle cops?

Had something similar happen to me before (I was in a car though) and managed to get the cop to drop it. But it made me realised that sometimes cops just do this for no good reason, probably because they are having a bad day or something. There are good cops and bad cops. I seem to remember as case where someone was convicted of something on a bicycle was banned from driving all vehicles. Not just bicycles. To be honest though riding a bike while having earphones on is a bit stupid. The cop could have asked you to stop and you didn't hear him. Which when you think about it fair proves that you couldn't hear anything. Does that consitute dangerous driving though?

Are deaf people allowed to drive?


Best thing is to talk to the cop involved.

OfflerCrocGod

50.—The Principal Act is hereby amended by the substitution of the following section for section 52:

"Careless driving 52.

52 (1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without due care and attention.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment."

Thanks tallpaul the above^^ is what turned up for the 1968 Act, frankly that is so vague that it's laughable. You can be convicted for that!!, does scratching your nose in your car also fall under "without due care and attention"?. They were bicycle cops, but only one really made a fuss the other I don't think cared in the least bit. The above does not mention any thing about one-way roads......so I presume he forgot/missed that (or I got that wrong). Is a bench warrant bad?, a fine I can just ignore right?, lots of ppl do that with parking fines and all. The cop is/was full of himself his colleague didn't seem impressed by what he was doing that was for sure. I dont want to spend money on a defence - I'm a student - so if I can get away with just ignoring it I'd be happy to.

Doodah7

A bench warrant is bad as it is issued to arrest you!!! You are then in deep doo-doo as you are held in contempt of court and you will have no chance of getting the judge to drop the case.

You can't simply ignore a fine either. You have to pay or you will get another summons and off you go on the merry-go-round again. As I see it you have three choices:

1) talk to the guard (or his partner) and get them to drop the whole thing

2) go to a solicitor and fight the case

3) show up in court, take your medicine and pay the fine. It should only be €65 and the lesson of no discmans while cycling is learnt.

mycroft

A bench warrant will not be issued againist you.

You'll most probably be fined.

My advice. Don't bother seeing a solicitor.

Arrive to court on time, and well dressed. Argue your case, politely but firmly, when you're asked do you have anything to say.

If the judge finds againist you, offer to make a small donation to charity, instead of a fine.

It's pausible the garda might not show (happened to me0

Or that they'll present their case poorly, and you'll get off.

Do turn up in court, otherwise the next letter you recieve will be the fine.

If you can't make it to court on the day, you can call the Gardaí (name and station, should be on the summons) and explain your situation, re exams, a good sob story and they may even just drop the charges. They should be sympathic. If they're being pricks about it, raise the fact that you had exams today, when you go to court and speak to the judge, they'll probably be more sympathetic to you, and look on the gardaí in a less favourable light ("you're dragging him away from his education for this piddly crap??").

Finally, getting a summons is a perfectily valid reason to miss, and resit the exam, college can't do anything, they have to allow you.

Lastly, chill, you're looking at a small fine at the worst of it.

seamus

Be nice and apologetic about it. The cop was probably pissed off that you avoided him. Regardless of whether he actually gave good indication (which simply stopping in front of you is not), he may have believed you attempted to avoid arrest, and just got pissed off.

Go to court, be an angel and pay the €63.50 fine. It's extremely unlikely you'd be sent to jail.

He probably thought you didn't see the sign that said it was one-way, didn't cop on he was a Garda, hence the 'without due care and attention' bit.

Don't ignore it. It's a minor traffic offence, so it won't show up as a conviction.

gazzer

I was wating for a taxi near the Dublin corporation building on the quays the friday before last at around midnight. I was there about 5 minutes when this police car pulled up beside me. Anway one of the guards pulls down the window and asks me what i am doing, i said i was waiting for a taxi and then he says that about 20 taxis had passed by me already and why hadnt i hailed one.

No way did that many cabs go by. i would say about 5-6 and they were all full. I didnt put my hand out for them cos i could see there were people in them, even though 3 of them had their lights still on.

I explained this to the guard and he started asking me was i giving him cheek etc etc. I couldnt believe it. I am 32 years of age. was fairly well dressed as i had just finsished work at 9 that night. I had two drinks on me so was in no way drunk.

I just bit my tongue and didnt give any smart answers back. Then next thing he asks me for my name and address and says that i will be hearing from them . The f**king cheek,

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by gazzer
I was wating for a taxi near the Dublin corporation building on the quays the friday before last at around midnight. I was there about 5 minutes when this police car pulled up beside me. Anway one of the guards pulls down the window and asks me what i am doing, i said i was waiting for a taxi and then he says that about 20 taxis had passed by me already and why hadnt i hailed one.

No way did that many cabs go by. i would say about 5-6 and they were all full. I didnt put my hand out for them cos i could see there were people in them, even though 3 of them had their lights still on.

I explained this to the guard and he started asking me was i giving him cheek etc etc. I couldnt believe it. I am 32 years of age. was fairly well dressed as i had just finsished work at 9 that night. I had two drinks on me so was in no way drunk.

I just bit my tongue and didnt give any smart answers back. Then next thing he asks me for my name and address and says that i will be hearing from them . The f**king cheek,

Theres never any point having a discussion with a Guard. Any sign of intelligence is a threat apparently.

hedgetrimmer

More often then not when you turn up to court with these things, they get dismissed. It's the once who don't turn up, or turn up late, that they really chase and punish

Beruthiel

Originally posted by gazzer
I explained this to the guard and he started asking me was i giving him cheek etc etc. I couldnt believe it. I am 32 years of age. was fairly well dressed as i had just finsished work at 9 that night. I had two drinks on me so was in no way drunk.

I just bit my tongue and didnt give any smart answers back. Then next thing he asks me for my name and address and says that i will be hearing from them . The f**king cheek

after watching Prime Time I'm not at all surprised to hear that

eth0_

Dude, like it or not, you're a danger to road users if you're cycling while you have earphones in.
The cops were probably shouting at you for ages to get you to stop, and thought you were trying to evade them.

If you throw that summons in the bin, that would be idiotic. See if you can reschedule, you probably can.

Victor

This is not something you can ignore. You need deal with it either with the Garda or in Court.

You can talk to a solicitor and get free legal aid if you are on a low income.

If you are doing exams, you will need to write to the court clerk to get a postponment.

EAT HUMBLE PIE.

seamus

As a pedestrian, you're not required to give your details to a Garda.
They can't arrest you (or even ask for your details) without good cause.

hedgetrimmer

Um, if a Garda ask you for your details, and they are unsure about them, they are actually allowed to ask you to present your details to a police station, AND it is an offence to give a Garda incorrect information as to your identity, so sorry, seamus, but if they ask, you are obliged to tell. Hell, in most European countries you have to carry a state ID card, which has all your details, including your file number (a file on each citizen), and if you don;t have it on you, you get taken to eithe rhte cop shop, or back to your home address to retreive it. Ireland is liberal by comparison!

Nuttzz

Originally posted by Beruthiel
after watching Prime Time I'm not at all surprised to hear that

He's just filling his quota

Victor

Originally posted by seamus
As a pedestrian, you're not required to give your details to a Garda.

Yes you are.

Sleipnir

Originally posted by seamus
As a pedestrian, you're not required to give your details to a Garda.
They can't arrest you (or even ask for your details) without good cause.

uummm, that's incorrect.
You must provide your name and address to a Garda if requested to do so.

Here's a little known fact of law

Any member of the Force shall commit an offence against discipline if he is guilty of:—

(17) Expressing or manifesting political opinions
(22) Marrying without leave.

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by eth0_
Dude, like it or not, you're a danger to road users if you're cycling while you have earphones in.
The cops were probably shouting at you for ages to get you to stop, and thought you were trying to evade them.

If you throw that summons in the bin, that would be idiotic. See if you can reschedule, you probably can.

I'm not. They weren't they were chatting and cycling toward me and I was cycling (slowly cause this is the centre) toward them. The idiot cop verred into my path when he noticed me I verred out of his way so not to smash into him and I kept on going down the road. Near the end of the road he smashed me off the bike and gave out to me, if he had shouted I would have heard, my NetMD is never on full volume and neither is it very powerful.

Johnny_the_fox

If your a student at Uni... i *think* the students union - provide free solicitor for students ....

*they do in the north*

uberwolf

Originally posted by Johnny_the_fox
If your a student at Uni... i *think* the students union - provide free solicitor for students ....

I think UCD were up to something similar this year, if only law students offering advice. Certainly worth checking

seamus

Originally posted by Kananga
uummm, that's incorrect.
You must provide your name and address to a Garda if requested to do so.

Has anyone any links to the appropriate legislation?

Sleipnir

no, and I ain't spending 30 minutes looking for it.
Ask a Garda/solicitor/taxi driver.

Alternatively, If a Garda ever asks you what your name and address is, refuse, and see what happens.

I believe the penalty for refusing is a fine "not to exceed £50"

But feel free to check that out.


<EDIT> Hell, if a Litter Warden can do it, you can be sure the Gardai can too.

"Traffic wardens can request or demand your name and address. They are obliged to carry identification with them and to identify themselves as traffic wardens. Failure to give your name and address on demand is also an offence and you may be liable on a summary conviction to a fine. "

oh, and

"The Gardai have the power to make reasonable enquiries from the public. However, there is no general power to arrest and detain people in custody for questioning without charge."

Ronaldo7

Oh dear god, let me get this str8.

You were cycling down the road slowly. A cop on a bicycle swerved in front of you. And you avoided him(which is the normal thing to do since he swerved out in front of you). And then he cycled after you and knocked you onto the ground. Jesus Christ, is that not assault? Thats ****ing terrible. Talk about OTT reaction by the copper.

Sangre

Originally posted by Kananga

"The Gardai have the power to make reasonable enquiries from the public. However, there is no general power to arrest and detain people in custody for questioning without charge."

There is a general power to arrest on the reasonable assumption that a serious crime has been commited by the person.
What do you mean without charge?

You canr detain someone for the sole purpose of questioning.

Sleipnir

sorry, forgot to say that that was a quote taken directly from Oasis.
I did not write it myself.

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by Ronaldo7
Oh dear god, let me get this str8.

You were cycling down the road slowly. A cop on a bicycle swerved in front of you. And you avoided him(which is the normal thing to do since he swerved out in front of you). And then he cycled after you and knocked you onto the ground. Jesus Christ, is that not assault? Thats ****ing terrible. Talk about OTT reaction by the copper.

I was going down a one way street - so I suppose I deserved it and a canning and an electric shock and a fine and a prison sentence and some GBH. It's pretty much the most ridiculous pile of crap I have ever have happen to me; I mean what is up with this guy?:dunno:, why is tax payers money being spend on this!!!.

RicardoSmith

Ok so you were obviously breaking the law in front of two guards, and then failed to stop. Then you had a wrestle with one of them, and then to top it all off you were a smarty pants.

I dunno but I'd rubber truncheon you for that. Get the Elephant whips out I say...nipple clamps etc. :ninja:

dazberry

Originally posted by gazzer
I was wating for a taxi near the Dublin corporation building on the quays the friday before last at around midnight. I was there about 5 minutes when this police car pulled up beside me.

Dublin Corporation Building - There's the problem - its a hive of drug dealing (atleast outside - God knows what they're on inside).

OfflerCrocGod - I know a couple of gardai, and even if they couldn't give a sh1t about anything, they normally lose it when they tell someone to stop and they don't (I appreciate you didn't realise). Whatever level of reasonability they may have is then subsequently gone.

However I'm surprised you got a summons for it considering nothing was said at the time. Also its an awful waste of court time, possibly it will be thrown out when the judge realises, but against that I wouldn't be surprised if the garda could be a bit prone to exaggeration. But regardless don't ignore the summons - as Kananga said - it then becomes serious.

D.

Crash

Originally posted by seamus
As a pedestrian, you're not required to give your details to a Garda.
They can't arrest you (or even ask for your details) without good cause.

Kinda catch22. Guard asks for details. you say "i dont have to give them to you!"
they then can claim that they found it suspicious that you wouldnt give the details.

Tbh i've gotten pointless hassle frmo gardai once or twice for nothing, literally just walking along.
i'm quite well dressed and 17 years old. they say something, i generally get ever so slightly pissy, they give me more hassle, i ask for their names and badge numbers as i'd like to file a complaint. once they persisted. twice they got kinda scared looking and gave up.

MojoMaker

Scared of something a 17yr old said? Really Mr Mitty...

Nuttzz

my brother was running up our road to his friends (he was 14 at the time) and a squad car stopped and asked him what he is doing.

How much do we pay these guys??????

Turner

Originally posted by seamus
Has anyone any links to the appropriate legislation?

Loads of acts..

If you fail or refuse to give your name or address or give a name and address that the Garda considers to be false or misleading he/she can arrest you without warrant.

Road traffic act..
Misuse of drugs act...
Offences against the state act....

Shall i go on ???

seamus

Originally posted by Chief---
Shall i go on ???

I'm not disputing it. I just assumed that it only applied it in certain situations. So, if you're driving you car, then under the Road Traffic Act, you're required to provide your name.
If you're suspected of drugs trafficking, if falls under the misuse of drugs act etc.
What I really meant is that I didn't think they could ask you without good cause.
The flipside being that if you refuse, all they have to say is, "We've had reports of drug trafficking taking place in this area, you are required to indentify yourself under the Misuse of Drugs Act...etc etc". That's probably the meaning of that "reasonable enquires from the public" thing they have on Oasis, that Kananga posted earlier.

(I haven't even been looked at crooked by a Garda in years, but when I was younger I tended to get unwittingly cheeky and defensive, answering "yes", "no" and various grunts when questioned for no reason at all. It probably still sticks with me.)

OfflerCrocGod

By the way the summons never mentioned anything about the one-way road so is that not part of this? (I dont even remember wheter it was a one way road). Or does the without due care part cover that?, should it not be explicitly stated in the summons?.

Victor

Originally posted by OfflerCrocGod
By the way the summons never mentioned anything about the one-way road so is that not part of this? (I dont even remember wheter it was a one way road). Or does the without due care part cover that?, should it not be explicitly stated in the summons?.

I suspect the summons is OK. Essentially the "without due care" bit will be for wearing headphones.

What road were you on? It might say it on the summons.

Mutz

Originally posted by Beruthiel
after watching Prime Time I'm not at all surprised to hear that

I'm surprised to see you make a comment like that Beruthial. The program was one sided with an anti-Gardai agenda.

Gardai who form reasonable suspicion* that you have committed an offence have the power to ask you for name and address. The Guard should'nt have crashed into you like that, but I'm sure the story is slightly altered.

*(suspicion that any joesoap would agree with)

Mutz

Originally posted by Beruthiel
after watching Prime Time I'm not at all surprised to hear that

I'm surprised to see you make a comment like that. The program was one sided with an anti-Gardai agenda.

Gardai who form reasonable suspicion* that you have committed an offence have the power to ask you for name and address. The Guard should'nt have crashed into you like that, but I'm sure the story is slightly altered.

*(suspicion that any joesoap would agree with)

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by Victor
I suspect the summons is OK. Essentially the "without due care" bit will be for wearing headphones.

What road were you on? It might say it on the summons.

Ye I checked out the road and it is a one-way road as this is not mentioned in the summons I presume it can't be brought up on the day of the hearing?. If so I'm being charged with a delightfully vague "without due care" :rolleyes:.

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by Mutz
The Guard should'nt have crashed into you like that, but I'm sure the story is slightly altered.

Nope I ended up on the road *he* knocked me and my bike down.

Victor

Originally posted by OfflerCrocGod
Nope I ended up on the road *he* knocked me and my bike down.

You were evading... eh, well not arrest, but whatever.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by OfflerCrocGod
Ye I checked out the road and it is a one-way road as this is not mentioned in the summons I presume it can't be brought up on the day of the hearing?. If so I'm being charged with a delightfully vague "without due care" :rolleyes:.

Its your word against 2 guards. Good luck

Guy:Incognito

Originally posted by Nuttzz
He's just filling his quota

yes its a sad day for this country when the guards start stopping law breakers isnt it, thats a ridiculous comment nutz.

The guy has admitted that hes was cycling up a one way street with headfones on.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Stekelly
yes its a sad day for this country when the guards start stopping law breakers isnt it, thats a ridiculous comment nutz.

The guy has admitted that hes was cycling up a one way street with headfones on.

Pity they can't take the same hard line with the scumbags too. I have no sympathy for the cops. Having been on the wrong side of them for no good reason, and not having their support when I needed them.

Guy:Incognito

so because there may be other crime going on elswhere they should just cycle by someone doing something wrong? why no just get rid of the gards so and let the country look after itself, or maybe get us a dictator, nothing sorts people out better than a good bit of old fashioned tyranny.

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by Stekelly
yes its a sad day for this country when the guards start stopping law breakers isnt it, thats a ridiculous comment nutz.

The guy has admitted that hes was cycling up a one way street with headfones on.

Thank God the cops are knocking over University students who are cycling at 5Km/h down one-way roads with no cars on them; if they dont think of the consequences:eek: :eek:!!

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Stekelly
so because there may be other crime going on elswhere they should just cycle by someone doing something wrong? why no just get rid of the gards so and let the country look after itself, or maybe get us a dictator, nothing sorts people out better than a good bit of old fashioned tyranny.

No crime going on elsewhere? Sorry where is this?

Made any 999 calls to the cops? Quick response is not what I'd call it. One time it took 3 hours.