Caught by Gatso van

Mr Burns

How long does it take from being caught to receiving the dreaded letter in the post?
Captain Gatso was on the Naas road between Newlands Cross and the Red Cow yesterday morning.

Thanks
Burns

ando

Took 6 weeks to get the letter for me back in november 2002

I dont get it, why do ppl fly along that road even though its famously known to have gatso's parked on a regular basis? I'm usually on or just above the limit on that road but ppl still zoom past me

Nuttzz

Just a quick question, if gatso vans are parked on the foot path, are they not illegally parked? Therefore any speeder they catch is caught by means that breaks the law, Is this a basis of a challenge?


I see the Van paked between the spawell and the M50 on grass between the road & the footpath, Is it legal to park there?

Our man in Havana

I see the Van paked between the spawell and the M50 on grass between the road & the footpath, Is it legal to park there?

No, it's not legal to park there. But the Gardai have an exemption from parking laws when they are in the execution of their duties. So I would doubt any challenge would work.

As a matter of interest Ando did they send you the picture of yourself?

007

ando

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
As a matter of interest Ando did they send you the picture of yourself?

no, all I got was the fine in the post

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by ando
no, all I got was the fine in the post

Did you have to nominate who was driving? It is a bone of contention on http://pepipoo.com/NewForums2/index.php

ando

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
Did you have to nominate who was driving?[/url]

na m8, I knew it was me. I had a routine at that time, every few days I drove up that street. City centre and n'all. You would'nt think they'd have gatso's there, but they do. I never seen the one that caught me, it was probably in with a few other vans.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by ando
na m8, I knew it was me. I had a routine at that time, every few days I drove up that street. City centre and n'all. You would'nt think they'd have gatso's there, but they do. I never seen the one that caught me, it was probably in with a few other vans.

I think Mr. Bond's referring to a number of cases taken in England (and probably elsewhere) that having to identify yourself as the driver may contravene European Law because you would be incriminating yourself. I think the Gardai have claimed that the onus is on you to prove otherwise, but I woulnd't bet on that standing up in a proper court. It would be interesting to see someone take up a case like that, they'd need a lot of time money, and a desire to suffer years of Garda harassment.

Atomic Pineapple

Is that the area around the long mile round? with the mad roundabout thing?
was there 3 weeks ago for the first time ever? It has 3 lanes so whats the speed limit? 40?

first day in my new car, hope I wasnt speeding (or caught speeding)

anyway, the company I work for has 5 vans with about 3 or 4 people insured to drive each van, so if one van is caught on a gatso how do they prove who was drivng? we dont keep any sort of record as to who is driving so we wouldn't know who was driving, especially not 6 weeks later

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by draffodx
Is that the area around the long mile round? with the mad roundabout thing?
was there 3 weeks ago for the first time ever? It has 3 lanes so whats the speed limit? 40?

They are usually about halfway between Newlands X and Red Cow Roundabout (just past Joels restaurant) heading norhtbound, or opposite there heading southbound. White Ford Transit usually or sometimes a 4x4 thing. I've seen motorcycles a couple of times, but they were probably just bringing donuts to the lads in the van.

Yes it has 3 lanes in each direction and yes it is 40 mph speed limit. Absolutely ridiculous. But profitable. :rolleyes:

Atomic Pineapple

ah right havent been down that side in ages, must remember to look out for them in the future,

Anyone know why them speed camera detecters are illegal in Ireland, of course the real reason is that they'd stop the garda gettin motorists speeding and hitting them for fines but whats the official reason?

and whats the penalty for getting caught with one of them in the car?
cant be as bad as getting 2 points and a €80 fine

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by draffodx
ah right havent been down that side in ages, must remember to look out for them in the future,

Anyone know why them speed camera detecters are illegal in Ireland, of course the real reason is that they'd stop the garda gettin motorists speeding and hitting them for fines but whats the official reason?

and whats the penalty for getting caught with one of them in the car?
cant be as bad as getting 2 points and a €80 fine

I'm sure they'd roll out the old "obstructing a garda in his duty" or some BS like that, conveniently ignoring the fact that it would obviously prevent someone from speeding, not to mention informing the driver that they must be in an accident blackspot (hence the speed camera ).

Not sure what the penalty is, I have an EazyPass thing in my car, driving through Kinnegad a few weeks back, a Garda thought he was great chasing me and pulling me over because he thought it was a detector.

ando

I think it’s legal to own and buy one, but illegal to use it. Doesn’t really matter as the guard would probably just confiscate it if he caught you with one. I've heard of ppl getting pulled over and asked do they have one. If they said no, the guard would search the vehicle for 'drugs'

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by ando
I think it’s legal to own and buy one, but illegal to use it. Doesn’t really matter as the guard would probably just confiscate it if he caught you with one. I've heard of ppl getting pulled over and asked do they have one. If they said no, the guard would search the vehicle for 'drugs'

To search a vehicle for drugs the guard has to have reason to belive there are drugs in the vehicle ie he see someone with drugs or smells them. If he wants to search it for anything else he needs a warrant. If the search is illegal then any evidence found is no good ie Radar detectors found during a drugs search would be inadmissable.
If a cop tried that on with me I would bounce him out of the job faster than you can say "Bend over".

Mr Burns

Thanks for your replies. Looks like I have a 6 week wait to see if they do me!

Could I challenge them on the grounds that they are revenue gathering instead of invreasing road safety?

Turner

Originally posted by Mr Burns
Could I challenge them on the grounds that they are revenue gathering instead of invreasing road safety?

No!

Guy:Incognito

just like to ask what everyones problem with guards doing their job is?. PEople are asking what speed limits are on certain roads and getting replies so people obviously know the speed limis so whats ur problem keeping too them, end of the day if ur caught speeding its ur own fault, not the guard who caught u or the government whoset the speed limit ( too low, according to some of u) thats what the government are there for, we elect them to make these descisions and should abide by the laws they set. I cant stand all these people who look for loopholes out of laws that they have broken, if u break the law, tough, its ur fault, deal with it and dont do it again, dont spend months whinging that the guard was parked in the wrong place or didnt have a hat on or sum other rubbish. And on therevenue gatherng note, if ur small child or brother/sister was run over (whether its the childs fault or not) was run over by someone speeding, id like to see u give out about the speed limits on that streych of road being too low.

Seth Brundle

@ Stekelly - I think people are pissed off because the Gardai decide and enforce ridiculous speed limits on stretches of raodway which are capable of higher limits. This is endorsed by the fact that the minister for Transport plans on overhauling the whole speed limit system and has admitted that many roads hold limits that are lower than they should be (this is also complimented by the fact that the national speed limit will increase in speed from 60mph to 100kph).
The fact that a wide 3 lane carriageway leaving Dublin is 40mph borders on insanity. Compare this to the road near my house in leixlip which although only about 12 foot wide allows for speeds of up to 60mph.
I have never seen the guards travel on this or the nearby roads, never mind do a speed check. Compare this to the main roads where they have decided on the stupid limits and are just shooting fish in a barrel. It is quite difficult (in reality) to drive within the speed limit on many stretches of Dublins arterial roads [except in rush hour] and the plod know this.

Guy:Incognito

for a start the standard of driving in this country is awful, which needs to be addressed, but thats neither here nor there, the government need to sort that, but the fact that the goveernment have said that the speed limits should be raised and will do so is irrelevant, the speed limits are what they are ,for the moment at least, so we have to stick to them , regardless of what we think. Its a guards job to uphold EVERY law, whether anyone feels it sa trivial one or not, who enforces what law is up to the guard or their superiors. and in the same respect we have to obey the laws, whether we agree with them or not thats not our choice to make.

Seth Brundle

fair enough - I know the guards should be enforcing the laws but they should not
a) have made them ridiculous in the first place and
b) use them as en easy way to increase statistics but not solve Irelands high fatality rate from driving.
Your point about the guards upholding the law is irrelevant as the dog in the street knows that this is not the case. If it were then there would be very few people working in Dail Eireann for a start.
Bringing it back to a motoring perspective, what about drink driving. they do nothing about that (with the exception of a token sampling the odd time).
What about uninsured drivers?
unlicenced drivers?
drugged / stoned drivers?
illegal lighting on vehicles?
I think the term is 'f**k all'!
They do however do the odd tax check (which would support the 'increasing revenue' conspiracy thoery)

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by kbannon
fair enough - I know the guards should be enforcing the laws but they should not
a) have made them ridiculous in the first place and
b) use them as en easy way to increase statistics but not solve Irelands high fatality rate from driving.
Your point about the guards upholding the law is irrelevant as the dog in the street knows that this is not the case. If it were then there would be very few people working in Dail Eireann for a start.
Bringing it back to a motoring perspective, what about drink driving. they do nothing about that (with the exception of a token sampling the odd time).
What about uninsured drivers?
unlicenced drivers?
drugged / stoned drivers?
illegal lighting on vehicles?
I think the term is 'f**k all'!
They do however do the odd tax check (which would support the 'increasing revenue' conspiracy thoery)

I agree entirely with you. Over last Xmas I did not encounter 1 drink driving check point despite driving late at night and early mornings. What the hell is going on?

Nuttzz

they are only revenue commissioners in a uniform

vibe666

i got caught in the uk 5 years ago and tried the 'i don't know who was driving' trick (they sent me the picture and you couldn't tell cos there was 4 of us in the car at the time). i remembered getting caught and i was actually driving, but i was trying to be smart cos a friend had been caught and he really didn't remember if him or his work mate were driving and they got let off because they couldn't convict one of them if they hadn't done the crime.

didn't work though, cos they told me to go to court and the date they gave me was actually a week after the case was heard. the morning i was due to go and defend myself i got a letter saying that the case was heard a week earlier and i wasn't there so was convicted in my absense.

3 points and £250 fine.

think it was 83 in a 60 limit. still got the points now cos i didn't pay the fine (not been in the uk since) so i'm assuming the points are going to stay there till i pay, but i've not been in a situation where it's counted yet so i haven't bothered. i'd rather have the money in my pocket, and since my uk driving licence (european now) is a photo ID card type any points are not shown on it (there is a seperate old style paper section, which i've never had to use which has them listed) it's never been an issue.

i guess it might be if i'm driving and i hit someone, but since nobody has ever asked when i've been in hire cars or whatever, i'm not too bothered.

Jip

The 'I don't know who was driving trick' won't work as the registered owner of the car will then get the fine, fine if it's a company car or van but no good if it's your own.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Jip
The 'I don't know who was driving trick' won't work as the reistered owner of the car will then get the fine, fine if it's a company car or van but no good if it's your own.

The registered owner will get the letter but you can nominate who was driving at the time. Ask them for the picture and if it dosent clearly show who was driving you can claim that you dont know who was driving. Handy if your car is driven by more than one of you. Unless the cops can prove who was driving or you confess theres shag all they can do.

Jip

I still think if someone is trying to say they don't know who was driving to get away with a fine the registered owner is still responsible for the payment of the fine. If that wasn't the case then everyone would be trying it.

SheroN

best thing to do is have a read of the local death listings and see if anyone near you has died, then try to claim they were driving the car, you'd given them a loan of it or something!

Ahh i dunno, it's probably worth a try:)

ken90

I have heard of this being used with a company car.

800 Euro fine - No points

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Jip
I still think if someone is trying to say they don't know who was driving to get away with a fine the registered owner is still responsible for the payment of the fine. If that wasn't the case then everyone would be trying it.

Yes the owner would be respnsible for the payment of a fine but would not get any points. Big loophole with camera traps.

I would rather pay €80 and avoid the points.

Seth Brundle

it is unfair in the sense that if you weren't driving and state that you weren't then you have to do the guards work and find out who did. If you are in court and swear that it wasn't you then that should be that. You should not be questioned about who was driving. If you can provide an aliby that you were elsewhere at the time then you should be allowed walk away.
What happens if your son for example steals your car, gets Gatso'ed but says nothing?

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by kbannon
it is unfair in the sense that if you weren't driving and state that you weren't then you have to do the guards work and find out who did. If you are in court and swear that it wasn't you then that should be that. You should not be questioned about who was driving. If you can provide an aliby that you were elsewhere at the time then you should be allowed walk away.
What happens if your son for example steals your car, gets Gatso'ed but says nothing?

A very good point Kbannon. I suspect it will take a case stated to the high court to sort that out. There have been no cases like this yet , but it's only a matter of time before such a challenge is mounted.

It flies in the face of natural justice that one can be convicted of speeding with the only proof being a picture of your car with the driver unidentifiable. I always thought that the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. So if a person denies driving and can't be identified from the "evidence" then a doubt exists and the accused should be aquitted.

If the current prededents in the UK are held here then the whole gatso/automated fining system will be in chaos.

Atomic Pineapple

I've never seen a gatso camera placed anywhere but on a straight piece of road, there are hundreds of black spots around the northeast with nothin but maybe a sign with black spot written on it, why arent there cameras here?
Because the volume of traffic is too low to make a profit from it

Guy:Incognito

if its your car then you should know whos driving it. Yhe law should be that the owner gets the fine and/or points unless they say someone else was driving at which point the person shoul;d confess, if they dont it should fall back on the owner,ull soon stop letting unreliable people drive ur car if they r costing u money.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Stekelly
if its your car then you should know whos driving it. Yhe law should be that the owner gets the fine and/or points unless they say someone else was driving at which point the person shoul;d confess, if they dont it should fall back on the owner,ull soon stop letting unreliable people drive ur car if they r costing u money.

That's all very well but as far as I'm concerned, it's up to the Gardai to prove who was driving, not me. I often let my father use my car, and vice versa, and I don't think it is fair to expect me to remember who was driving it 6 weeks after an alleged offence. I know he is insured, isn't a dangerous driver, and doesn't drink drive.

My main problems with speed cameras are that they are obviously not targeting areas and stretches of road which have a high level of accidents/fatalities. One would naturally question their purpose; are they revenue gathering or promoting road safety?

Secondly, they are entirely one dimensional. They can in theory prosecute me for driving 5mph over the limit while not doing a damn thing about the drunk/stoned/dangerous/uninsured/untaxed/unlicensed driver I was passing. Given that I don't drive drunk/stoned/dangerous/uninsured/untaxed/unlicensed, then I would feel hard done by.

Thirdly, as a taxpayer, I feel ripped off that the people who are paid to enforce the laws of this country are sitting in a van snapping away and making money instead of doing a real job.

I could go on all night.

Our man in Havana

Do they caution you if you are actaully stopped by a garda? Found this:

Section 47 deals with exceeding the speed limit

Section 104 Road traffic act 1961

104.—Where a person is charged with an offence, under section 47, 52 or 53 of this Act, he shall not be convicted of the offence unless either—

( a ) he was warned at the time at which the offence is alleged to have been committed, or within twenty-four hours there, after, that the question of prosecuting him for an offence under some one of those sections would be considered, or

( b ) within fourteen days after the commission of the offence a summons for the offence was served on him, or

( c ) within those fourteen days a notice in writing stating the time and place at which the offence is alleged to have been committed and stating briefly the act or acts alleged to constitute the offence and stating the intention to prosecute him therefor was served personally or by registered post on him or (in the case of a mechanically propelled vehicle) on the registered owner of the vehicle in relation to which the offence is alleged to have been committed:

Provided that—

(i) failure to comply with this requirement shall not be a bar to conviction in a case in which the court is satisfied that—
(I) the accused by his own conduct contributed to the failure, or
(II) in case the offence alleged to have been committed is in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle, neither the name and address of the accused nor the name and address of the registered owner of the vehicle could with reasonable diligence have been ascertained in time for a summons to be served or for a notice to be served as aforesaid, or
(III) in case the offence alleged to have been committed is not in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle, the name and address of the accused could not with reasonable diligence have been ascertained in time for a summons to be served or a notice to be sent as aforesaid, and
(ii) it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown by the defendant, that the requirement of this section has been complied with.

From my reading of section c they have only 14 days to send out the notice. 6 weeks would invalidate any prosecution under section 47.

Would make a nice defence.

Rodney Trotter

..............as far as I'm concerned, it's up to the Gardai to prove who was driving, not me.

In your dreams! This is Ireland.

The onus is on the registered owner to prove who was driving. You are guilty until proven innocent. I know one man who has 2 points on his licence even though his wife was driving the car at the time. Hardly fair to put any person in that position.

Solution? Put foreign based cousin down as named driver. 'Twas him, your honour!

or

register the car in the name of an unknown company at an unknown address!

Nuttzz

In England students volunteer their licence details to take points for motorists for a fee, (£100 a point), any of you student boys interested in such a "scheme"

MrPudding

Originally posted by kbannon
[B..... (this is also complimented by the fact that the national speed limit will increase in speed from 60mph to 100kph).
........ [/B]

This is only an increase of 2 MPH, not really enough to make a point. I agree that it is irritating that they only syop on nice long streaches of road with stupid speed limits. Onreflection though I think there may be some truth in the arguement that it is dangerous to stop traffic on small crappy roads, (where they need to be speed trapping) even gatso van where you get the fine in the post could have trouble finding a safe place to locate on the roads where they shoud be placed.

All in all I think they are takin the piss busting people for doing 45mph on the 3 lane Naas road (in my case). And before anyone starts with the "wah wah wah you broke the law" sh*t catch a grip, that kind of speed inforcment has a questionable effect on road safety.

MrP

MrPudding

Originally posted by Rodney Trotter
Solution? Put foreign based cousin down as named driver. 'Twas him, your honour!

or

register the car in the name of an unknown company at an unknown address!

Fifth gear did an article on the myths of getting off speeding tickets. It was very interesting. The dead bloke one did work but it will only work once. The foreign relation one is also good but apparently they have been known to chase up the alledged foreign speeder to confirm travel details and stuff. Their conclusion was that there really was no way around it.

Even the good old "Right to remain silent" argument was thrown out of court although your could, if you were loaded, probably fight that one in Europe.

MrP

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Rodney Trotter
In your dreams! This is Ireland.

The onus is on the registered owner to prove who was driving. You are guilty until proven innocent. I know one man who has 2 points on his licence even though his wife was driving the car at the time. Hardly fair to put any person in that position.

I'd be more than happy to take it to court in that case:)

Nuttzz

Road Traffic Act 2002
Section 11, Subsection (11)

Subsection (11) provides that unless another person is identified by the registered owner as the driver, it will be assumed that the registered owner was driving the vehicle at the time of the occurrence of the alleged offence.

This means that if a company cannot identify the driver who committed the offence, the registered owner of the company vehicle (which may be the company director or secretary) will be the one liable for the offence and who incurs the penalty points and pays the fine.

http://www.nifast.ie/pdfs/Company%20Policy%20HR.pdf

RainyDay

Originally posted by Rodney Trotter
register the car in the name of an unknown company at an unknown address!

Oh Rodney, you really are a plonker. Putting the ownership of what is probably your biggest (or 2nd biggest, if you have a house) asset into a fictional entity is not a smart move. Remember that little question on your insurance proposal form that asks 'Do you own the vehicle'? Once you answer 'no', you going to raise a pile of red flags in the insurance company. If you lie and answer 'yes', you are in breach of contract and would be effectively driving without insurance. What happens if your car is nicked and you have to prove ownership to get it back? This is NOT a good idea.

Can I make a suggestion to all of those who are concerned about the amount of time spend by Gardai chasing speeders? Slow Down - In doing so, you will free up Garda resources to focus on the many other important offences highlighted in this thread. [That is of course assuming that the concerns expressed about all those other offences are genuine, and not simply a diversionary tactic].

The points system was brought in on 31st Oct 2002. I you look at those Garda fatality figures for recent years on a Nov to following Oct basis, they show remarkable consistency for the period prior to the introduction of the points system and a substantial drop from there onwards, i.e.

12 months to 31 Oct 2000 401
12 months to 31 Oct 2001 402
12 months to 31 Oct 2002 409
12 months to 31 Oct 2003 334

There are about 100 people alive today who would be dead without the penalty points system.

Sherlock

"Can I make a suggestion to all of those who are concerned about the amount of time spend by Gardai chasing speeders? Slow Down - In doing so, you will free up Garda resources to focus on the many other important offences highlighted in this thread."

Whats so dangerous about doing 45 or 50 on a 3 lane carraigeway?.Its a ridiculously low limit and it doesn't say much for the guards that they concentrate some of of their speed monitoring there.If Seamus Brennan follows through with his plans to up the limits on roads like the Naas road, lucan bypass and Stillorgan road drivers who would have been deemed speeders last year will now be safe drivers.
Last year the Tallaght bypass limit went up from 40 to 50 mph even the road was unchanged.
I've been driving for 25 years and haven't a single speeding conviction to my name but it annoys me to see guards "shooting fish in a barrel" while down the road you'll see all kinds of dangerous driving.

Victor

Maybe I'm wrong but:
* The section of road is between traffic lights and a traffic light controlled roundabout.
* There are a number of side roads and side entrances.
* Muppets think because there is a central median, they are on an autobahn.

In such circumstances, isn't a get tough régime understandable?

Originally posted by Rodney Trotter
The onus is on the registered owner to prove who was driving. You are guilty until proven innocent. I know one man who has 2 points on his licence even though his wife was driving the car at the time. Hardly fair to put any person in that position.

But it was his wife who put him in that position.

Atomic Pineapple

Valid points Victor but the amount of traffic coming onto the road is minimal (except at the traffic lights of course)

Muppets think there on an autobahn the whole time no matter how wide the road is, some idiot in a civic with plastic bits stuck on overtook me on a complete blind bend and missed a car by about 5inches there a few weeks ago

I think a speed limit of 50miles an hour would be more appropiate between the lights and roundabout its not too slow and not too fast

MadsL

I accept that speeding is an issue but if we are serious about preventing road deaths;

Then..

1. When did you last see a camera in a residential area where kids play.
2. Why not Gatso's outside schools at school starting and leaving times
3. 15 mph limit past schools at these times.
4. Ban bull bars - these must be a BIG killer - I even saw a set on a Carina FFS!
5. Make overtaking buses illegal
6. Anti Jaywalking campaign and on-the-spot fines.

Any more ideas...???

Atomic Pineapple

better roads would be a good idea, if there was a dual carriageway between every major town in Ireland then there'd be far less accidents, I know it would cost alot but the goverment take €4billion a year from motorists and thats excluding speeding fines and the like, where is it all being spent?

Luas? dublin port tunnel? M50 at carrickmines?

the money wasted on these would have gone a long way to make our road network atleast a little better.

What about the 12% increase in vrt? wheres that gonna go?
well the goverment took a 12% pay increase the same time this was announced so i guess it'll be goin into there own pockets?

Tommy Vercetti

Some proper driver education would be a good place to start. How about learning the rules of the road in school? The driving test is a joke too (if you actually do it), why not retest every 5 or 10 years? Why not introduce a compulsory advanced driving scheme, where people will learn how to cope in real situations, not reverse around a corner.

Guy:Incognito

why is everyone trying to justify their speed by saying the road can handle higher speeds or the gard shud be in another spot, the fact of the matter is the law is the law for as long as it stands till its either changed or abolished so while its there, the descision to adhere to it falls on you and if you get caught breaking it its no1's fault but your own and you have no comeback so either 1) slow down to the speed dictated by law or 2) keep speeding and get caught and fined. but either way, accept the concequenses.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Stekelly
why is everyone trying to justify their speed by saying the road can handle higher speeds or the gard shud be in another spot, the fact of the matter is the law is the law for as long as it stands till its either changed or abolished so while its there, the descision to adhere to it falls on you and if you get caught breaking it its no1's fault but your own and you have no comeback so either 1) slow down to the speed dictated by law or 2) keep speeding and get caught and fined. but either way, accept the concequenses.

You are Micheal mc Dowell and I claim my five euro.

You don't realise that the gardai which for you the sun shines out of their asses, are not even enforcing their own laws properly. They dont get speeding fines out within 14 days as per sect. 104 (C) and then proceed to frighten the masses into paying and accepting points.

If section 104 was wisely known then the vast majority of speed camera fines would be struck out. Its all the posturing and fright talk that puts the majority off fighting these fines.

May day riots need I say more.

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
May day riots need I say more.

Oh go on, just a little