Strenghtening Knees

Puck

With Google turning up such gems as
"As we strengthen our knees physically, it is also vital that we strengthen our knees spiritually." I thought I'd turn to ye for some helpful advice.

What excersises can ye recommend for strengthening knees? I do tai chi, karate and jogging/running, all of which can make my knees pretty tired and sore and I feel it may be only a matter of time before I injure myself. Knee supports help but I'd really like to strengthen my knees so I don't need supports.

I don't go to a gym at the moment (I prefer to excercise at home because gyms seem to be full of tossers who think they own the place to be honest) but I'd be willing to go if some of the equipment there would help my knees.

tunney

Leg extensions, hamstring curls, straight leg squats.

Generally though there is sweet fa you can do. The knee is a crappy joint.

sound_wave

you could do static leg extensions to help build up the muscle around the knee as well as the exercises that tunney said. indeed the knee is a crappy joint mine is feck at the moment. swollen and locking a small bit. Damn rugby!

Reyman

Careful of overdoing it on knees, you run a high risk. I did mine in years ago trying too hard at squash and it doesn't really recover.

Leg extensions will strengthen the knee supporting muscles particularly at the final 15 degrees of the straightening movement. But they introduce very high shearing forces on the knee and can generate a whole new problem if you use too much weight .

Squats are probably the best bet, but restricted to a 90 degree upper /lower leg angle if you want to be really careful with your knee. Knee supports are bad news except for the very short term!

TacT

Swim

Magic Monkey

From here, example of Hindu Squat here.

Question: I am doing 5 sets of 10 Hindu squats per day 6 days a week. Now my maximum is somewhere over 24 reps nonstop. I didn't max out. Now I have had some mild crackling in my knees from the Hindu squats. I have had mild soreness too, but not any joint pain at all. Am I doing okay, or do I need to change, or what?

Answer: I do not understand why anyone would want to do Hindu squats in several short sets. Stopping every 10 repetitions breaks the pace, is tiring, and wastes time. You stop at the time when you should be getting up to speed so you can cruise on at a comfortable pace. One hundred Hindu squats takes from 2 minutes 15 seconds if you hurry to under 2 minutes and 40 seconds if you don't. (The time depends also on how tall you are—the taller the person the longer it takes.) Of course, you do not have to start with one hundred.

The reasons why it is better to do Hindu squats at a lively pace:

1. You can do more that way because you can better use the elasticity of your joints and muscles (Bober 1995). Moving without stopping so you can take advantage of the rebound can double your mechanical efficiency thanks to storage and return of energy by the elastic structures of your body so you can do more repetitions. The more you can do the better because it takes many repetitions to strengthen the knees. Ligaments are strengthened with “chronic activity . . . of an endurance nature” (Tipton et al. 1975) and so are the slow-twitch muscle fibers that do most of the muscular stabilization of the joints (see the previous article of this column). The surface layers of joint cartilage receive nutrition from synovial fluid (joint fluid), and intermittent compressing and decompressing of joint surfaces is necessary for providing nutrients and removing waste products from the cartilage cells (Feiring and Derscheid 1989; Hertling and Kessler 1996). Furthermore, the synovial fluid becomes less viscous and thus more slippery with increased speed of movements in the joint (Hertling and Kessler 1996).

2. You will develop neuromuscular coordination and endurance (both muscular and cardiovascular) useful for sports and martial arts. The pace of an exercise determines the result. Slow pace “increases” the resistance by eliminating the momentum of the body or of the weight and thus develops hypertrophy. Fast pace “reduces” the resistance because you are taking advantage of momentum. A fast pace also improves mobilization and synchronization of motor units (Pawluk 1985) and so develops the type of functional strength needed in martial arts and combat sports.

I suspect that your soreness is caused by doing squats too slow, forcing your muscles to work harder than if you moved fast. Because you are in terribly poor shape, the slow squats make you tense your thighs enough to damage your fast-twitch muscle fibers—hence your muscle soreness. The cracking sounds may be caused by poor muscular control of the knee joints due to fatigue of the fast-twitch muscle fibers and poor development of the slow-twitch fibers, or perhaps moving slow is not good for your knees' cartilage. If Hindu squats are done right they relieve and prevent knee problems. After squatting with heavy weights, on the same day and a day after I used to have somewhat achy and creaky knees. Now I do a couple of hundred Hindu squats after lifting weights and my knees make no noises and feel fresh.

seamus

My kneecaps like to dislocate themselves at inopportune moments. I got a few things to do, most of which involve buliding the upper leg muscles, around the kneecaps. The most useful one I found was to get a small bench, around 3/4 of the way up your shin. Put one leg on it, and purely use the muscles in that leg to lift yourself up straight. Do it slowly, over and over again. The hardest bit is going slowly coming back down, and trying not to use your other leg to boost you up.

And cycling. Lots and lots of cycling.

Puck

Originally posted by TacT
Swim

Do you mean swim instead of what I usually do or in addition to it? If it's a case of giving up any of my other activities then that's out of the question, I do what I do because I enjoy it, it's more than just a means to an end fitness-wise.

It's been a while since I've been swimming so I'd expect it to be quite "splashy" but I suppose I could give it a go.

It's never really bothered me but whenever I do squats I always get a (sometimes quite loud) crackling noise from my knees. It's just a noise though - no pain or odd sensation or popping feeling - so it's never bothered me. They've been like that since I was a kid though.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

GreeBo

Personally I would avoid those Hindu squats like the plague.
From my own experience and anything I have read about knee exercises, never let your knee get in front of your toes.
It puts far too much pressure on the knee joint u are in serious danger of damaging it.

Puck

Just tried a few reps. Not good imho. Far too much strain on my knees at too quick a pace. All my weight being suddenly slammed down onto my knees doesn't sound good for them.

Gyck

You could try the 'Horse Stance', which is essentially a shallow squat. I'm sure you're familiar with the stance as it's used in Tai Chi.

Stand with your legs approximately shoulder distance apart with toes pointing forward, parallel to each other. Now drop your stance, keeping your back straight (i.e. try not to lean forward) with your rear tucked under your torso (i.e. not butt out). Start with a shallow stance and for a short time and as you gain strength drop the stance and increase the duration.

Don't drop your knees over your toes as has been pointed out earlier in the thread. When you get the gist of the stance try vary the distance between your feet.

Puck

Yes I'm familiar with the horse stance from both tai chi and karate although I usually have my feet about twice hip-width apart. I find the tai chi to be very benificial with any joint problems or pains I may have and especially my knees and back. Karate's always much easier on my knees if I do tai chi just before it. Just thought I'd look here for other's opinions and experiences so I might find a really useful excercise for a little extra help with my knees.

Magic Monkey

Aye, I was gonna suggest Gyck's approach if the Hindu squat wasn't for you.
Also read that the supplements Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulphate are allegedy good for knees, think they have them in most Health Food shops. Might be worth a try..

tunney

Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulphate

is a waste of time. there is no evidence what so ever to suggest it works. From personal experience it doesn't even taken in high doses and is just a waste of money.

Farls

Having suffered from "small knee caps" all my life and constantly dislocating my right knee to the point where i now have to get chips of the bone removed, i've spent quite a few months in physiotherapy and there is a good few exercises you can do at home for the knee.

Seamus said about the small box and standing up at down, its very good but you need to make sure and do it a slow and controlled movement.

Another good one is get say a pillow and fold it in two then place it between your legs and squeeze it together good and tight and hold it for a count of 10 then release.

Sit on the side of a chair and stand up pushing your heal of your bad knee into the ground then back down again.

When your standing up flex your thigh muscles and hold for 10 seconds.

Do squats, definitley not hindu ones, if your only starting don't use weight at all, make sure that your knee's never go infront of your toes (keep your hands out straight to balance) and go down till your parallel with the ground then back up again.

Their all i can think of the top of my head that helped me, of course their all easy to do at home then if you want to goto the gym the leg curls, extensions, squats etc. are all available with the proper machines.

Hope this helps, my knee has ruined my sporting life so to speak, i just goto the gym now...

Farlz

Puck

Originally posted by Farls
Another good one is get say a pillow and fold it in two then place it between your legs and squeeze it together good and tight and hold it for a count of 10 then release.

I'd say a swiss ball would be good for that too (they're very handy if you ask me). Thanks I'll give that and the others you mention a try.

I've been doing a few of the excercises mentioned above. I think one of the problems with knees might be that it's hard to tell if I'm working them or not. I mean my legs are knackered (in a good way) from excercises but I don't know if it will have a positive effect on my knees yet.

Farls

Yes if you have one of those it would be ideal, the actual part of the muscle your trying to build is at the top of the kneecap on the inside and the outside, i cant think of the name my physio put on it...there were just 3 letters....damn i'll have to stop looking at her and start paying attention soon!

Farlz

Puck

From your description the only ones I can think off are the vastus lateralis on the outside and the vastus medialis on the inside. But I don't know much on the subject.

Reyman

Puck's right ---- V. Medialis is just above the inside knee and V. Lateralis is just above the outside knee.

It's tricky to start strengthening individual muscles and messing around like this, unless you're in rehabilitation

---

you're likely to cause an imbalance with some of the other thigh muscles and end up with a severe hamstring injury or similar.

I'd stick to a couple of good all round exercises as prescribed by our contributors - e.g. the Squat. These will strengthen the whole thigh.

Snowman

Tai'chi itself is very good for the knees.

Additionlly, just go to a gym and get on a cycle. Build up your quads/thighs as these provide the major support for your knees

Davexirl

I have a bad knee and I want to make it stronger. I dislocated my right knee once and the doctor told me it once it happens once there is a strong possiblity it will happen again. It happened to me while playing football and I really do miss playing football since it happend.
I am starting to play indoor football recently in work but the thought is always in the back of my mind of my knee dislocating again. Do you think a knee support would help when playing football but it wont stop my knee from dislocating?

tunney

Additionlly, just go to a gym and get on a cycle.

Worth F*&K all really.

Much better off making sure that you have no muscular imbalances in and around the knee joint and that your core stability is good.

Reyman

I'd be careful of recommending cycling to anyone with knee trouble. Cycling itself is a significant cause of knee problems. Two factors are causative:

1. Cycling at too high a gear, it puts a high stress on the knee joint when the upper lower leg junction is in the 90 degree position. Stay in lower gears!

2. If the saddle is set too low and the legs do not full extend during the pedal cycle the leg muscles straightening the leg in the last 10-15 degrees get no exercise and a muscle imbalance occurs. Over time the knee will deteriorate unlees the problem is corrected.

I'm not against cycling - it's a great activity if you take it easy and watch the two points above!

tunney

You forgot a few:

3)Saddle to high causes ITB strain and hammer strain

4)Incorrect pedal stroke places stress on knees

5)Pumping your tyres up with your brand new track pump so that they at 80psi (mtb) can result in knackered knackers.

Guv

Originally posted by tunney
Leg extensions, hamstring curls, straight leg squats.

Generally though there is sweet fa you can do. The knee is a crappy joint.

A) Leg Extensions are one of the worst exercises you can do period and place a lot of stress on the knees.

What exactly are straight leg squats?

I've heard of:

Olympic or High Bar Squats
Athletic Squats
Manta Ray Squats
Safety Squats
Twisting Squats
Lunge Squats
Side Lunge Squats
Partial Squats
Front Squats
Powerlifting Squats
Single Leg Squats
Sissy Squats
Box Squats
Jefferson Squats
Hack Squats
Overhead Squats
Magic Circle Squats
Platform Squats
Zane Squats
Platz Squats
Bear Squats
Front Harness Squats
True Squats
Zurcher Squats

Must be a new exercise?

TacT

Originally posted by Magic Monkey
Aye, I was gonna suggest Gyck's approach if the Hindu squat wasn't for you.
Also read that the supplements Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulphate are allegedy good for knees, think they have them in most Health Food shops. Might be worth a try..

I meant swim in addition to what you're doing, preferably after a workout or whatever you're doing...


As for the above quote - be warned - avoid this stuff like the plague, you may or may not realise that although it is sold by nearly every and any healthshop around, it can have dramatically adverse affects on people. It may help you but it may also cause god knows what sort of reaction - had an ambulance out to my house at 2am about a month and a half back because the old man had been taking this stuff and it caused some sort of Valservagal [sp?] reaction.

He was ok in the end but it was scary and he has since stopped taking it and has not had any other weird symptoms such as the above. He had been taking the stuff for ages and he never noticed any kind of affect until that while ago....

My advice - steer clear - steer clear of any kinds of supplements or new fangled SUPER BOOSTER ARTHRITIS CURE or Tony Quinn's latest batch of SUPER BOOSTER 2004 or whatever the hell he's working on now. Fact is they just don't know how everyone is going to react to this stuff and the body needs to get what it needs naturally in order for it a) to be absorbed properly b) give you the juice you need to do whatever you need to do.

RicardoSmith

I had/have problem with my knees. My advice is to find a good physio and get them to design some exercise for you. Walking is good as is swimming. Cycling is fine if you can do it but if you do it wrong your knees will let you know. One exercises I was given was to squat, but with your back against a wall and not to go up and down but just to hold it for a certain amount of time. But then my knees were pretty bad, strength wise.

My knees flared up because of lack of exercise, and then playing footie on an all weather surface.

Guv

TacT - IIRC some chondroitin can be derived from shellfish. Therefore those with an allergy to shellfish can have an adverse reaction as witnessed in your case. Problem here, the brand may have been the same all along but on say batch number 27 they switch suppliers to save some cash and hey presto shellfish. The person may have switched brands also.

By and large all chondroitin is synthetically produced, cheaper. My view chon is not worth it but glucosamine is. A lot of orthopaedic surgeons take glucosamine but not chondroitin.

Do you mean Valsalva?
http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/valsalva_maneuver.html

tunney

What exactly are straight leg squats?

Guv, a straight leg squat is an exercise that was given to me by my physio to do. It could be covered in your list of squats under a different name though. Its not really a muscle building exercise(well it is but not a muscle mass one) more of a stability increasing exercise. It consists of standing up straight, sticking one lieg out straight at a 45 degree angle to the other and squating down. Quite easy for most I'm sure but something I needed to do for a while to get over an injury.

Guv

You are essentially describing a single leg squat. If this is done to parallel it is very hard for most. In fact most people can't even go down let alone come back up!

A lot of people can't even squat properly with just their bodyweight!

tunney

Nah not *quite* to parallel, thats the end goal though.