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Interesting Skeptical Links and Articles

  • 12-01-2004 10:15am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭


    We all come across articles and web sites that other Skeptics might be interested in, particularly newcomers.

    I suggest posting them here. This thread then becomes a simple collection of Skeptic related resources.

    e.g. The Irish Times seems to be printing CAM type articles/advertisements on an ongoing basis an if we decide to tackle them a list of these articles/extracts would be useful.

    (There is a copyright issue here but acknowledging copyright and/or including extracts should solve this.)


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    When does food become medicine?

    (Copyright Irish Times 12-01-04)

    ...

    On January 30th, in the High Court in London, the Alliance for Natural Health will challenge the EU Food Supplements Directive, which was adopted in 2002 with a view to limiting the active ingredients in mineral and vitamin-based supplements to a "positive list" of approved substances. The alliance, whose challenge is supported by many Irish health food retailers and manufacturers, says the list omits more than 300 widely used forms of vitamins and minerals.

    In a related development Avril Doyle, the Fine Gael MEP for Leinster, challenged the inclusion of a "supremacy clause" in the EU's Pharmaceuticals Directive in Brussels last month. She believes the clause could result in food and food supplements being classified as drugs, as the Pharmaceuticals Directive would subsume the Food Supplements Directive, and thereby come under strict pharmaceutical regulation.

    ...

    David Byrne, the EU Commissioner for Health and Consumer Protection, will not comment on this month's legal challenge. He has said, however, that the claim that 300 nutrient forms have been left off the positive list misses an important point. "No independent scientific evaluation about the safety and bioavailability of these nutrient forms has yet been carried out at European level," he wrote in this newspaper in 2002. "For a substance currently on the market, a seven-year national derogation may be obtained, during which time the substance in question can be properly evaluated."

    [END]

    Alliance For Natural Health


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    There is a new channel starting tonight on Sky 289 called FX and at 10:30 pm is Penn & Tellers BULL**** program.

    Tonight they (hopefully) debunk Psychics.

    I heard about this series and know that P&T are Skeptics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭davros


    Originally posted by williamgrogan
    (There is a copyright issue here but acknowledging copyright and/or including extracts should solve this.)
    You will also need the permission of the copyright holder. Otherwise you can invoke the principle of "fair use" whereby you may quote modest amounts of a published work, with attribution and without permission.

    It's often possible to find the press releases and other publicly-available documents that were used as source material by the journalist. You can often also find a similar article on a website that doesn't require a subscription (for example www.unison.ie) and just link to that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    I wonder how many people who go the Acupuncturists know this?
    Blood donors are always needed, particularly now, as restrictions tighten on who is eligible to give. Dr Muiris Houston reports.

    Unsurprisingly, much of the questionnaire deals with issues surrounding HIV, AIDS and hepatitis B and C. ... or that if you have had acupuncture within the past 12 months from anybody other than a registered nurse, doctor or physiotherapist, you will be politely turned away?

    I.T. 19-01-04


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    I often read the UK's Independent although I am of the opinion that its going downhill since O'Reilly took over.

    One writer I like and find funny and intelligent is Rowan Pelling. She is also the editor of a magazine called "The Erotic Review".

    [Article deleted - davros]

    If you send your opinions I will construct a "reply" and send it to Rowan and let’s see what she says. Everything is here. The free advertisement for Acupuncture, the anecdotal evidence, the “I’m not a crystal energy nut”, the conviction that she is pregnant due to “Gerard”, the placebo effect, the Harley Street clinic, etc.

    And what about the evidence, “I later discovered that Gerad is something of a fertility specialist and has achieved astonishing results where medics and IVF have failed”. How the f**k (excuse my French) do we “know” Gerard is “something of a fertility expert"?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭davros


    Please stop reposting articles. I'm not even going to bother editing them from now on - they will just be deleted.

    You may not repost articles without the permission of the copyright holder.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭davros


    Originally posted by williamgrogan
    I wonder how many people who go the Acupuncturists know this?

    I didn't know that (not that I let anyone stick needles in me without a damn good reason). I see the same restriction is mentioned on the Irish Blood Transfusion Service website.

    Linking with the Regulation of CAM thread, does this mean that once the Department of Health-backed registration process goes ahead, acupuncturists will be considered "safe", and the punctured will be eligible to donate?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭davros


    Originally posted by williamgrogan
    How about this edited version then?
    Copyright law is notoriously difficult to understand and I'm not a legal expert. But the general principles applicable here are:
    - you may quote for the purposes of commentary. The amount you may quote should be no more than a few percent. Certainly not more than 10%.
    - you should not "prejudice the interests of the owner of the copyright". Which means you should not provide for free that which the copyright owner is trying to sell.

    I have no great desire to be held responsible for any violations of copyright so I'm going to err on the side of caution.

    It's nothing personal. Feel free to link to these articles on the original sites where people can pay if they want to view the full text.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭sextusempiricus


    Originally posted by davros
    .

    Linking with the Regulation of CAM thread, does this mean that once the Department of Health-backed registration process goes ahead, acupuncturists will be considered "safe", and the punctured will be eligible to donate?

    A good point. I assume that all acupuncturists will have professional indemnity and public liability insurance that will compensate the injured public in case of a cock-up. As I noted before 1% of them in the UK do not at present use single-use disposable needles!


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 10,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭ecksor


    Argh, insurance. Money won't compensate for a loss of health :eek:

    Well, apart from loss of earnings and payment for treatments but you know what I mean.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭sextusempiricus


    Originally posted by ecksor
    Argh, insurance. Money won't compensate for a loss of health :

    Too true. However the fear of going through the courts will certainly concentrate the minds of practitioners to practice according to best standards. Hopefully.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    “Pen & Teller’s Bull****”.

    Last night episode 2 of this program aired on Sky FX channel.

    They pull no punches and continually describe CAM practitioners as con artists, bull****ters, cheats etc.

    They examined chiropractic, magnetic healing and reflexology. A Chiropractic admitted manipulating the spine of very small babies and happily boasted that he treated healthy people.

    They said that in the states, 8 billion dollars is now spent per year on chiropractic alone. This compares to NASA’s budget of 11 billion.

    They highlighted a Reflexologist who charged $2,400 for his course and have him on record recommending that one of his “pupils” start practicing reflexology before even being trained to help pay for the “course”.

    They set up a very funny CAM treatment centre in a shopping mall and had great fun taking the piss out of gullible passer-by’s.

    They convinced people of the merits of magnetic hats, gravity coats to adjust the spine as you walk and snail face massage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    How about “Chelation Treatment”?

    http://www.irishhealth.com/index.html?level=4&id=1165

    PS

    The following web site has a “Complementary medicine” section and regularly “explains” CAM treatments in a positive way.

    http://www.irishhealth.com


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭davros


    Originally posted by williamgrogan
    The following web site has a “Complementary medicine” section and regularly “explains” CAM treatments in a positive way.
    http://www.irishhealth.com
    I'll have to register to read the articles but I did note a fairly weak disclaimer on the "About" page:
    In relation to the section on complementary medicine, our aim is to cover a broad range of topics and due care is taken to commission material from a reputable source. However, in some of these areas there are no national registration or academic bodies and few practitioners in this country. Visitors to the site should be aware of this.
    That seems inadequate to me. I'd like to see a mention that there is no evidence to show that CAM treatments are effective.

    Apparently, all of the articles are reviewed by a "panel of healthcare professionals", all of whom are traditionally (non-CAM) qualified. How do CAM articles get past such a review process?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    Anyone interested in the Paranormal?

    Lewis Wolpert, a developmental biologist at University College London, made the case against the existence of telepathy at a debate at the Royal Society of Arts (RSA) in London on 15 January. Rupert Sheldrake, a former biochemist and plant physiologist at the University of Cambridge who has taken up parapsychology, argued in its favour. And most of the 200-strong audience seemed to agree with him.

    www.nature.com/nsu/040119/040119-7.html

    Wolpert said, "An open mind is a very bad thing - everything falls out."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 52 ✭✭PaulP


    The excellent English journalist and writer will soon publish a new book on our favourite subject. It should be hilarious. See the following article http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1131814,00.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    That was a good article.
    In Britain, by the end of the 20th century the country's 36,000 general practitioners were outnumbered by the 50,000 purveyors of complementary and alternative medicine - some of whom receive the seal of royal approval.
    An amazing statistic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭Typedef


    I wouldn't be too perturbed about the Royal seal of approval.

    Mick Jagger was knighted recently after all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    Consumer Health Digest #04-04, January 27, 2004

    Major acupuncture claim challenged.

    A large well-designed study has found no evidence that acupuncture is
    effective against postoperative nausea and vomiting (PONV).
    [Streitberger K and others. Acupuncture compared to
    placebo-acupuncture for postoperative nausea and vomiting
    prophylaxis: A randomised placebo-controlled patient and observer
    blind trial. Anesthesia 59:142-149, 2004]
    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2044.2004.03577.x/abs
    The study involved 220 women who underwent breast or gynecologic
    surgery. Half received acupuncture at the acupuncture point
    "Pericardium 6" on the inside of the forearm. The other half
    underwent "sham acupuncture" at a different point at which the needle
    was imperceptibly retracted just after it touched the patient's skin.
    No significant difference in PONV or antivomiting medication use was
    found between the two groups or between the people who received
    treatment before anesthesia was induced and those who received it
    while anesthetized. A subgroup analysis found that vomiting was
    "significantly reduced" among the acupuncture patients, but the
    authors correctly noted that this finding might be due to studying
    multiple outcomes. (As the number of different outcome measures
    increases, so do the odds that a "statistically significant" finding
    will be spurious.) Acupuncture has not been proven effective against
    the course of any disease. This study is important because PONV
    reduction is one of the few alleged benefits of acupuncture supported
    by reports in scientific journals. However, the other positive
    studies wee not as tightly controlled. The sham acupuncture technique
    was developed at the University of Heidelberg. [Streitberger K,
    Kleinhenz J. Introducing a placebo needle into acupuncture research.
    Lancet 352:364-365, 1998]
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9717924&dopt=Abstract


    Editor, Consumer Health Digest http://www.ncahf.org/digest/chd.html
    Publisher, Chiropractic News Digest http://www.quackwatch.org/00AboutQuackwatch/chd.html
    Donations of $1 to $50 to help support Quackwatch can be made through
    http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/pay/T1X6GUTTCLU3T4


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    NYT 30-01-04

    Georgia Takes on 'Evolution'

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/30/education/30GEOR.html?pagewanted=1&th

    you need to register.

    The NYT has a good daily email newspaper.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    My New Scientist of the 10/1/04, which arrived nearly 3 weeks late for some reason, has an interesting article on the fact that the Herbal "Medicines" market may cause the extinction of 20% of the plants used. Much of the ingredients are harvested in the wild.

    It also mentions that the FDA in the USA has banned herbal remedies that contain ephedra and says there is evidence of 155 deaths caused by it, including a Baseball star called Steve Bechler. Another study showed 16,000 incidents of adverse reactions to it.

    N.S. also mentions that in some countries 80% of the population use herbal remedies. Amazing!

    Having said all that N.S. seems to be getting a bit soft in recent years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    I was looking on the web for the value of the CAM Industry in Ireland and came across this link.

    It looks sound until you continue to read.

    http://www.inplainsite.org/html/alternative_medicine1.html

    :p

    PS

    Anyone know what the t/o in Ireland of the CAM Artists is?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    The following is on the Irish Cancer Society's web site

    http://www.irishcancer.ie/text/cancerInfo/complementary.php#Complementary

    Complementary therapies

    These treatments are generally regarded as those given alongside conventional cancer treatments. They are perceived as a supplement to, but not a substitute for, conventional medical care. Complementary therapies are seen as promoting healing. They focus on strengthening the health of the individual, rather that destroying the cause of the disease. Complementary therapies include visualisation, relaxation and psychotherapy. Nowadays these three therapies are often regarded as part of standard support for patients with cancer. Other therapies which many people find helpful include; the touch therapies for example gentle massage, aromatherapy and reflexology, acupuncture, hypnotherapy, creative arts therapies for example and music therapy. Many complimentary therapies involve developing and maintaining a strong sense of spirituality.

    In Ireland, there are a number of centres that offer complimentary therapies in addition to conventional medical therapy. For example, in St. Luke’s hospital, Dublin (which is Ireland’s flagship centre for radiotherapy) aromatherapy and therapeutic massage are available for patients with cancer. Patients that may benefit from any of these therapies are referred for treatment by nursing staff, radiographers or doctors. Additionally, Our Lady’s Hospice in Harold’s Cross, has a department of Complimentary and Supportive Therapies, which also carries out research on complimentary therapies.

    Many patients that are stressed either physically or emotionally because of their illness find real benefit from theses therapies and develop an increased sense of well-being and an increased perception of their quality of life.

    In recognition of the interest exhibited by the public in complimentary therapies, the Department of Health has funded three full-time clinical research nurses to carry out research. These nurses are currently based in Our Lady’s Hospice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    I.T. Wednesday 11-02-04

    If the following is not a funny headline I don't know what is!


    Obese diet expert Atkins had long history of heart attacks


    Dr Robert Atkins, who pioneered the popular but controversial low-carbohydrate Atkins diet, had a history of heart attack, and was clinically obese when he died in April last year, it was revealed yesterday, writes Conor O'Clery in New York .....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    IT 13-02-04

    Scientist convicted over medicines
    Lara Marlowe in Paris

    A French scientist who manufactures a pseudo-medicinal product called G5 or Silanol in Co Mayo has been convicted of illegally practising medicine and pharmacology by a court in Bordeaux.

    ...

    According to le Ribault, G5 has helped patients suffering from herpes, hepatitis, asthma, cancer, AIDS, rheumatism and cardiovascular disease. Le Monde reported that his Irish laboratory sells between 14,000 and 15,000 litres over the Internet each month, for an annual turnover of €1.5 million.

    WG

    1 down 1,000,000 to go!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭davros


    Atkins ... was clinically obese when he died in April last year
    Seems to be a nasty attempt at a smear (there's a suggestion that it comes from animal rights activists). Atkins put on 60 pounds due to organ failure while in a coma just before his death. He was not obese before the coma.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    The article you link too is also from a pressure group, this one for restaurants & food companies.

    The mayor of NY had already, before Atkins fell afaik, referred to him as fat.

    Time will tell whether he was fat or not.

    There is very little evidence that the Atkins diet works other than because people may eat less while on it. There is also evidence that it may be dangerous and apparently it makes your breath smell awful. The "logic" behind the "diet" looks very dubious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭sextusempiricus


    Originally posted by williamgrogan
    I was looking on the web for the value of the CAM Industry in Ireland and came across this link.

    It looks sound until you continue to read.

    http://www.inplainsite.org/html/alternative_medicine1.html


    Most of it was sound apart from the religious i.e. Christian stuff which could be ignored as merely the author blowing his own trumpet. Loved that bit about 'Demonic Involvement' which amusingly jarred with some quite sensible comments. It was mainly useful in referring to the department at Exeter University that looks at the clinical evidence for CAM. This has its own professor, Edzard Ernst, who, according to a recent article in the London 'Times', is on 'a crusade for more scientific rigour in complementary therapies.' I wish him well.

    http://www.exeter.ac.uk/FACT/about.htm .
    For an example of their publications see

    http://www.pharmpress.com/shop/pdf/FACT_Jun03Focus.pdf

    The authors frequently attest to the poor quality of studies for CAM. Overall I would say the assessment of such studies by Exeter University is extremely useful for our cause in the critical evaluation of CAM.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    It just dawned on me...........

    Davros is on the Atkins diet, Davros is on the Atkins diet, Davros is on the Atkins diet, ............

    :p


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    see

    http://www.internethealthlibrary.com/Therapies/Homoeopathy-Research.htm
    Homoeopathy Research

    Listed below are health problems for which Homoeopathy has been shown to help. For full details, please click on the health problem.

    Does this really mean ".. shown to help make those selling water rich"?

    Some of the funnier ones

    acute ankle sprain
    pregnancy
    irritable bowel syndrome
    gout

    The only person I know who suffes from gout would think nothing of polishing off a bottle of gin at a sitting


    :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭davros


    Originally posted by williamgrogan
    It just dawned on me...........

    Davros is on the Atkins diet
    More unsubstantiated allegations :rolleyes:

    Fact: davros doesn't even know what the Atkins diet is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    A pity someone had to die though!

    Faith healer receives 9-year prison sentence; radio host sued.

    Reina Chavarria, of Van Nuys, California, has been sentenced to nine
    years in prison for practicing medicine without a license and
    injecting drugs into a man who later died. In November 2002, she was
    arrested administering vitamins and an anti-inflammatory drug to a
    54-year-old handyman who consulted her for a persistent rash. The
    injections caused the man to have convulsions and die shortly
    afterward. The man had consulted her for a persistent skin disorder.
    Police investigators later found candles, voodoo dolls, and religious
    figurines in the room where she treated her clients. In November
    2003, Chavarria pleaded guilty to four counts of unlawful medical
    practice and three counts of tax evasion. Reina's husband Jose
    pleaded no contest to signing a false tax return and was sentenced to
    two years' probation. Chavarria's assistant, Margarita Montes, who
    pleaded no contest to one count of unlawful medical practice, was
    sentenced to nine months in Los Angeles County Jail and three years'
    probation. The victim's family has filed suit against Chavarria,
    Montes, the Hispanic Broadcasting Corp (parent company of Los Angeles
    radio station KSCA-FM), and Alexandro Coello (a/k/a "El Cucuy") who
    hosted a radio program through which Chavarria attracted clients for
    her services. [Fausset R. Van Nuys faith healer is sentenced to 9
    years in prison. Los Angeles Times Feb 10, 2004] In November 2003,
    the California Franchise Tax Board reported that the Chavarrias
    failed to report income of more than $319,000 for the years 1999
    through 2001 and owed the state more than $45,000 in delinquent
    income taxes and penalties.

    To subscribe to Quackwatch, send a blank message to chdigest-subscribe@ssr.com


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    The Union of Concerned Scientists has issued an interesting report on Mr Bush's administration

    Scientific Integrity in Policymaking
    An Investigation into the Bush Administration's Misuse of Science


    http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/rsi/page.cfm?pageID=1322

    click on "full report" under Related Links, its a PDF doc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 52 ✭✭PaulP


    Regarding the UCS, an alternative view is that they are a bunch of scare-mongering cranks. See http://www.activistcash.com/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    Isn't the web great!

    Very good web site. Too early to judge how accurate but definitely interesting.

    I took the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientist for a couple of years and that is very alarmist as well.

    While we are at it what do you people think of Naom Chomsky? I can't stand him. Terribly un PC of me. Ditto Robert Fisk. He almost congratulated the Muslims that nearly beat him to death recently. I don’t like Greenpeace either.

    I was aware the UCS was a bit OTT but I have to admit that my attitude to Bush and his fundamentalism, anti-Science, “what Greenhouse effect?” attitude got the better of me.

    A point made somewhere recently was that activist organisations can not only discredit themselves but the very movement they are trying to promote by getting carried away with their own propaganda.

    Anyone read Michael Houellebecq? Dynamite. He was unsuccessfully sued by the Muslims in France for calling Islam, "easily the most stupid religion of them all".

    I've just realised to be a Skeptic you virtually have to be politically incorrect.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭Typedef



    http://www.sierraclub.org/globalwarming/epareport2003.asp

    Speaking of distortions that have arisen during the tenure of the Bush administration, based on questionably subjective 'scientific' data, the above link alleges that the Bush administration emasculated the EPA's report in deference to global warming.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    Penn & Teller's BS program was on tonight on Sky's FX Channel. A Fox Channel incidentally.

    They took the piss out of Feng Shui and Bottle Water. It’s very funny, don’t miss it.

    Three FS people (consultants) charged about €3,000 each to shift a woman’s furniture into three totally separate arrangements. They even examined a FS hair salon. Two identical twins went to a) FS hair salon for $150 haircut and b) Joe’s Barbers, $16. They then paraded the two around the place and asked people which brother had the FS haircut and 50/50 was the guess as to which was which.

    The bottle water section was a total piss take. They convinced diners that they had a special water menu with; Everest Water, Mount Fuji Water, Amazon Rain Forest Water etc. from about 4$ to $8. To hear those being conned waffling on about the qualities of the different water was funny. All the bottles were filled from a garden hose!

    75% of people they had blind test tap water v bottled said that the tap water tasted better than the bought water and the tap water was from New York’s city normal supply. 33% of all bottled water in a test done by the FDA over 4 years failed quality controls. There is 1 government official that tests all the bottled water and hundreds that test the tap water.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭davros


    Originally posted by williamgrogan
    While we are at it what do you people think of Naom Chomsky? I can't stand him.
    His ability to marshal an argument is extremely impressive. In the written word or verbally. His books are meticulously researched and every source is carefully noted. Often, the sources of quotes are the objects of his attack. I'm surprised you don't like him - he is a model skeptic, IMHO.

    I went to a lecture he gave, in linguistics, a long time ago (over a dozen years ago now) in Dublin. I can still remember the contents of that lecture, so clear was the presentation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    I don't deny any of that but he gets bogged down in detail and misses the bigger picture - reality.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 10,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭ecksor


    Originally posted by davros
    I'm surprised you don't like him - he is a model skeptic, IMHO.

    Yes ... Odd that ...
    I went to a lecture he gave, in linguistics, a long time ago (over a dozen years ago now) in Dublin. I can still remember the contents of that lecture, so clear was the presentation.

    His contributions to linguistics are well known, but a lot of that work is hugely important in computer science too! His work is helping us have these discussions.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 345 ✭✭Gibs


    Originally posted by williamgrogan
    While we are at it what do you people think of Naom Chomsky? I can't stand him. Terribly un PC of me. Ditto Robert Fisk. He almost congratulated the Muslims that nearly beat him to death recently........................I've just realised to be a Skeptic you virtually have to be politically incorrect.

    An interesting assortment of opinions, but I'm not sure I follow your logic.

    I think its fair enough to criticise Chomsky and Fisk - they are not everyone's cup of tea, whether in terms of their style, content or political orientation. However, once you look past some of the soundbite versions of their views as reported in the media, I think the impressive thing is just how committed they are to challenging the orthodoxies within their own areas of interest.

    Both men have continuously striven, throughout long careers, to challenge assumptions about prevailing, unsustainable versions of the 'truth'. They have done this by meticulously drawing attention to information that is either being wilfully ignored by vested interests or hidden away from public scrutiny.

    I am not suggesting that Chomsky and Fisk don't have an agenda and a definite political persuasion; clearly they do. Also, I don't always agree with the conclusions they draw, or the leaps they make from correlation to causation. But at least they are prepared to debate issues with factual (typically, and ironically, governmentally sourced ) information rather than relying on empty platitudes, spin and anecdotal reassurances. Above all else, this suggests to me that they are the epitome of what it means to be a 'skeptic'. Evidence-based argument surely has to be better than rhetoric? .

    I accept that the two men have become intellectual touchstones for the left-wing, but any force that their arguments has, derives from logic and evidence. I don't think it's fair to blame them for the 'PC' associations that have attached to them. Particularly in the case of Chomsky, his career (and, apparently, even his life) has been threatened as a result of things he has said and opinions he has held.

    Regarding the issue of Chomsky not getting the 'big picture' because he focuses too much on detail, I think that's a ridiculous and contradictory argument. Certainly his writing style leaves a lot to be desired and he tends to go off on tangents. The value of his books and lectures, however, is that he addresses the bigger picture, not by relying on sophistry, but by demonstrating in a methodical, systematic way how the usual cliches and assumptions that underlie widely accepted political (not to mention, linguistic!!) ideas are based on incorrect information.

    Once again, this seems to me to be the essence of what it is to be a skeptic - challenging the establishment with reliable data and offering hypotheses that are testable and open to refutation.

    I'm curious as to how you can defend making blithe criticisms of Chomsky and Fisk when they both seem easily to qualify as excellent examples of 'skeptics', an identity for which many of your previous posts would suggest you hold some affinity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭williamgrogan


    Gibs has summed fairly well what I think of Chomsky.

    I didn’t say he was wrong, I said “I can’t stand him”. I agree with a lot of what he says, I still can’t stand him. I do think he ignores reality and human nature.

    What Fisk reports is undoubtedly accurate but I his continuous tirades against America, which he blames for everything, has turned me off him.

    Left wing politics, socialism and communism are the intellectual bedfellows of Chomsky and Fisk, so how come the whole philosophy has collapsed? Socialism is great in theory; it’s the practice that doesn’t work. America was wrong to invade Iraq, but Sadam is gone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 52 ✭✭PaulP


    I'm still not sure what to make of Chomsky. He has many opponents who are not swivel-eyed ideologues. The argument against him is that he is simply always against whatever the US government is for, and since US policy changes this leads him to make a case against something only later to make the opposite case. Another point made is that when challenged on the specifics of his arguments he changes the point, the intellectual equivalent of kicking sand in the eyes.

    However while his books go into great details about the perfidy, as he sees it, of US policies in respect of the outside world, he has acknowledged that the US is not the only source of badness in the world, and that his abhorrence of the evils of even anti-US regimes (e.g those in the Warsaw Pact when it still existed) should be taken as read. He is writing not to provide a complete picture of the world but to fill in the gaps in the knowledge of someone living in the US, pointing out a lot of US hypocrisies along the way.


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