Happy New Year Ireland

mobby

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2004/0102/771270303HM3PRICES.html

and it goes on and on and on and on......... Happy new Year

zAbbo

only subscribers can view that page, ironic

sceptre

The headline is "€12 a drink charged on New Year's Eve, reveller claims". Reason enough to have a looksee.

Some choice snippets:

...

One customer told The Irish Times that a Dublin city centre venue imposed a €10 cover charge for New Year's Eve. Once inside, customers were charged €8 for all pints, while shorts were €12. Even the price of a packet of crisps had been rounded up to €1.

Some larger pubs around the State imposed cover charges or operated ticket-only policies on New Year's Eve, with customers paying anything from €5 to €20 to gain entrance. Mr Michael Kilcoyne, Consumers' Association president, said he had already received several complaints from people who felt they had been "ripped off" on New Year's Eve.

...

Mr Paul O'Grady, Galway county officer in the Vintners' Federation of Ireland, said some pubs were taking out exemptions for late-night opening and they had to recoup this outlay in some way. Some chose to place a premium on the price of drinks after a certain time, while others introduced a cover charge or ticket. However, it was highly unlikely that they would do both, he said.

...
Mr O'Grady said tickets and cover charges could be seen as a "logical response" to the growing trend of people staying at home.
sceptre comments: Mr O'Grady would do well to examine either why some people are staying at home or do some kind of basic economics course (not the same one Charlie McCreevy and Mary Harney did) to examine whether raising prices is the inevitable effect or the original cause

...

In the article, Michael Kilcoyne stated that the industry (presumably referring to pubs and hotels) has done a lot to damage itself. Which is rather true. I didn't go out last night but then I hate crowds and smelly people anyway. I'm sure there are less claustrophobic people out there who didn't feel like being ripped off in a crowded venue where they couldn't hear themselves shout so decided to run a house party instead. Cause and effect Paul, go look it up.

sovtek

sceptre comments: Mr O'Grady would do well to examine either why some people are staying at home or do some kind of basic economics course

Is is any wonder that such bad business acumen is rewarded so well in the pub business?

Tazz T

This is an excellent example of the ironies within the system. 'Happy Hours' for punters have been banned, yet the owners of these establishments can still boost prices to have their own happy hours.

It's sickening. I hope those people were told the cost of drinks before handing over their 10 yoyo cover charge.

Ripwave

Even the price of a packet of crisps had been rounded up to €1.

Where can you get crisps in any "Dublin city centre venue", even for €1? (I've seen the small cans of Pringles in some places, and they cost more than €1!)

A short sharp boycott would do those boyos a world of good. Unfortunately, it'll never happen. As long as the owners can rely on a) other publicans not to undercut them and b) customers to pay whatever the price is, we'll keep being ripped off.

("I have to charge those prices - I paid 2 million for this place". "Why did you pay 2 million?" "Because I can make a bloody fortunate charging exhorbitant prices to fools who will pay it!")

Eurorunner

The price of somethings determined by what your prepared to pay for it.

So, for pricing policies similar to the example given, do yourself (and by default, the rest of us..) a favour and leave those hard earned yoyo's in your wallet.

sovtek

Originally posted by Ripwave
Where can you get crisps in any "Dublin city centre venue", even for €1? (I've seen the small cans of Pringles in some places, and they cost more than €1!)

A short sharp boycott would do those boyos a world of good. Unfortunately, it'll never happen. As long as the owners can rely on a) other publicans not to undercut them and b) customers to pay whatever the price is, we'll keep being ripped off.

c)Victorian licensing laws that ever narrow the amount of pubs open late the same laws that keep the same people in the business year after year as well that actually encourage fewer owners.

There is no reason that a citizen without a criminal record should not be granted a license to open a pub!

Ripwave

Originally posted by sovtek
c)Victorian licensing laws that ever narrow the amount of pubs open late the same laws that keep the same people in the business year after year as well that actually encourage fewer owners.

That's a copout - as has already been pointed out in this thread, there are small towns in Ireland with 1 pub for every 100 people, where you still will be charged €4 for a pint.

We don't need any more pubs in Ireland. And even if we get them, it won't do anything to bring the price of drink down.

Ruaidhri

Originally posted by Ripwave
A short sharp boycott would do those boyos a world of good. Unfortunately, it'll never happen

I'd actually love to do this!
i've been thinking about it quit a bit. i am going to try mey best to try orgainse somekind of boycott in Carlow IT in the new year against a pub or two and see if it has any effect
it'd be intresting if a nationwide boycott of pubs by students was organised.

That's a copout - as has already been pointed out in this thread, there are small towns in Ireland with 1 pub for every 100 people, where you still will be charged €4 for a pint.

Having drank in one of these said towns i can honestly say it's not as expensive as dublin... there i was bitching steven's night about paying €10 to get into a nightclub

Personally i think if you shop around (i know of two pubs which charge well below €4 per bottle of miller!) you will find a pub with cheap drink.

Tazz T

We don't need any more pubs in Ireland. And even if we get them, it won't do anything to bring the price of drink down. [/B]

I don't think it's really about more pubs. It's about more competition. If someone wants to open a new pub offering lower prices then they should be given the opportunity. But when the majority of pubs are run by a small group of individuals, who will do anything to protect their interests (cartel), then it's virtually impossible unless the government do anything - which they won't.

Ripwave

Originally posted by Tazz T
But when the majority of pubs are run by a small group of individuals, who will do anything to protect their interests (cartel),

But the majority of pubs aren't owned by a small group of individuals. I'm not aware of any individual or company that owns say 10 pubs in Dublin, even though there are hundreds of pubs in Dublin.

Comptetition doesn't pay, because Irish consumers are, to a very large extent, willing to pay more than they are to change their habits. A pub that cuts 10c off the price of a pint won't generate much extra busines. If they cut 50c off the price, they won't make enough extra profit from increased volume to replace the loss of revenue from the price cut. (They can't deal with much extra volume on the busy nights of the week, as they're packed anyway, and people won't go out on Tuesday nights, for example, just because the prices are lower).

The "binge drinking" nature of current Irish "social life" is a big factor in this. Publicans are certainly taking advantage of this, but you won't fix the problem by making more pubs available, because that's not the real problem.

sovtek

Originally posted by Ripwave
That's a copout - as has already been pointed out in this thread, there are small towns in Ireland with 1 pub for every 100 people, where you still will be charged €4 for a pint.

And how is that a "copout". Currently you have a cartel. You have a relatively small amount of owners for all those pubs. If there are a large amount of pubs charging the same amount for drink...what does that tell you?
That also doesn't say anything about licensing laws that permit a relatively small number of pubs to open late. Ever decreasing competition as the night progresses.

We don't need any more pubs in Ireland. And even if we get them, it won't do anything to bring the price of drink down.

Nope but we do need more owners that are competing.

Ripwave

Originally posted by sovtek
And how is that a "copout".

I already explained why it's a copout.

Currently you have a cartel. You have a relatively small amount of owners for all those pubs.

No, you don't. How many pubs are there in Dublin? How many pub owners are there in Dublin?

You've decided what you want the solution to be, and they you're making up "facts" to suit your flawed arguments.

If competing on price would make more money for pub owners, then you'd see competition on price. It doesn't, because Irish people won't cross the road to save 10c a pint.

Did increased availability of taxi license lead to increased competition and bring down the price of taxi fares in Dublin?

sovtek

Originally posted by Ripwave
I already explained why it's a copout.

No it's a different opinion.

No, you don't. How many pubs are there in Dublin? How many pub owners are there in Dublin?

I'm basing it on that the laws allow only a certain number of people to hold licenses and it's known that owners purchase pubs merely for the license. That itself suggests that there are less owners than there are pubs.

You've decided what you want the solution to be, and they you're making up "facts" to suit your flawed arguments.

You haven't provided any more facts than I have, so it would seem that we are both stumbling in the dark on this one. Being that I'm not aware that you would actually able to get to published info on how many owners/pubs ratio I mentioned my anecdotal evidence above.

If competing on price would make more money for pub owners, then you'd see competition on price. It doesn't, because Irish people won't cross the road to save 10c a pint.

Cabs and pubs are two different industries altogether. I read (sorry can't find it now) that pubs sales were down 20% last year. That would suggest that people are able to cross the road to save as wel they are also willing to stay home as well.
Now I would concede that there is an overall apathy compared to other countries, but that's only part of the problem. There isn't much difference in prices in a given area, so "shopping around" doesn't really do much for the situation.

Did increased availability of taxi license lead to increased competition and bring down the price of taxi fares in Dublin?

No but it made it easier to get a cab. Shopping around for cabs and pubs are two different prospects.

Ripwave

Originally posted by sovtek
I'm basing it on that the laws allow only a certain number of people to hold licenses and it's known that owners purchase pubs merely for the license. That itself suggests that there are less owners than there are pubs.

Obviously there are less owners than there are pubs. If there were a thousand pubs, and one person owend two of them, there would "only" be 999 owners, which is less than the number of pubs. But that's not what you said. You said that all the pubs are owned by a small number of people, implying that there is a significant concentration of ownership.

This simpley isn't true. There are lot's of families and compnaies that own 3 or 4 pubs, but I don't know of a single company or family that owns or controls 10 pubs in Dublin.

The ownership of Dublin pubs is spread over hundreds of companies, families and individuals. It's factually incorrect to say that there is "a small amount of owners for all those pubs". The rest of your argument is so much hot air, because it's based on a fundamentally flawed "fact". There are absolutely no grounds for believing that adding more pubs, or more pub owners, would fundamentally alter the situation.

You dismiss the situation with taxis (because it disproves your case, and you can't argue it based on the facts) . Okay - buy a can of coke or a bag of crisps in any city centre "convenience store". There are no licensing restrictions on opening up a shop, yet they'll still charge you €1.30-€1.50 for a half litre bottle of coke. Why hasn't competition solved that problem?

Ripwave

Originally posted by sovtek
There isn't much difference in prices in a given area, so "shopping around" doesn't really do much for the situation.

And there is no reward for an owner that does decrease their prices, so why should they bother?

sovtek

Originally posted by Ripwave
And there is no reward for an owner that does decrease their prices, so why should they bother?

Increased sales would be an obvious motivation.

Eurorunner

Comptetition doesn't pay, because Irish consumers are, to a very large extent, willing to pay more than they are to change their habits.

This is the essence of the problem IMO. We dont shop around and we certainly dont shop around when it comes to drink!
There are certain specific instances where the govt. may be required to step in and break up cartels but for the most part, we can only blame ourselves. We cant blindly blame the govt. for everything without taking responsibility ourselves - otherwise, is it any wonder we have the calibre of politician that currently exists...

Its not even a case of listing the offending goods/service providers - but a case of listing the exceptions.

Ripwave

Originally posted by sovtek
Increased sales would be an obvious motivation.

It would, if Irish consumers would get off their arses and switch to a pub that was cheaper. By and large, they won't.

(Not to mention the fact that a place that's packed to the gills on Saturday night anyway isn't in any position to increase sales).

sovtek

Originally posted by Ripwave
It would, if Irish consumers would get off their arses and switch to a pub that was cheaper. By and large, they won't.

There is something to what your saying, some people will not bother their arse some of the time. However if there were a pub that had everything a particular person was looking for and was cheaper than all the other pubs of the same criteria...then i would disagree with you.
An anecdotal example is a certain babershop I go to. On Mon and Tues it has a special on a dry cut for €5.50 (ok I walked by today and its gone up to €6.50) otherwise it's about €10. This is the cheapest price I've seen for a dry cut in the city centre. On Mon and Tues people have to wait outside. The rest of the week there might be one or two customers in there.
That would suggest to me that people would bother their arse were there a cheaper alternative.

(Not to mention the fact that a place that's packed to the gills on Saturday night anyway isn't in any position to increase sales).

But pubs are generally not going to have to worry about business on the weekend, especially when you consider the Brits weekenders (although i believe that has dropped somewhat as well). Before the Euro I noticed that people would go out every night of the week. Now it seems that town is dead until Thurs (sometimes Wed). That with a report that sales had dropped 20% last year that people are staying at home because of the serious increase in drink prices.

seamus

sceptre comments: Mr O'Grady would do well to examine either why some people are staying at home or do some kind of basic economics course (not the same one Charlie McCreevy and Mary Harney did) to examine whether raising prices is the inevitable effect or the original cause

It's the classic Irish customer service shining through again. Customers are leaving us. Do we make an attempt to woo them back? Nah, let's just charge our existing customers more. It's a popular trend in most big businesses in Ireland.

A reduction of VAT on prepackaged (ie canned) alcohols would very quickly force Irish publicans to cop on. There's already a massive amount of people either staying at home, or drinking most of what they will at home, before going to a pub or club. It won't be long before they're forced to reduce prices or suffer the consequences.

Ripwave

Originally posted by sovtek
But pubs are generally not going to have to worry about business on the weekend,

If they drop the price 10c, then every pint they sell on their busy nights represents a loss of 10c in revenue. If they can't make that lost revenue up by increased business, who in their right mind would drop their prices in the first place?

especially when you consider the Brits weekenders (although i believe that has dropped somewhat as well). Before the Euro I noticed that people would go out every night of the week. Now it seems that town is dead until Thurs (sometimes Wed). That with a report that sales had dropped 20% last year that people are staying at home because of the serious increase in drink prices.

You may have noticed that we had a bit of a recession last year - the job market is depressed, and disposable income generally was down. We also didn't have a World Cup during the summer. It's not really surprising that sales were down.

star gazer

originally posted by eurorunner
The price of somethings determined by what your prepared to pay for it.

Not that many shop these days are willing to offer you something for less than the price THEY have determined.

We dont shop around and we certainly dont shop around when it comes to drink!

but there is a legal cartel in place in the form of the lisensing of premises. Straight away you're talking about a distorted market.

There will always be a majority of the population that will not change their ways without someone having walked the path first. It is the smaller segment of the population that will try anything once and work at being ahead of the posse and stand up for their rights much faster and stronger, this bunch of consumers are the ones who will decide (collectively) what prices should be acceptable. If they have been beaten by the system and no longer shop around, it is because there isn't real competition in the market. Shopping around in rip off ireland is a lot less productive than certain quarters would have consumers believe. Like it or not this is why this forum is here, ripoffireland.org exists, ripoff.ie, rip off irelnad in the front page headline of the sunday BUSINESS post have happened

There is no pot of gold at the end of the shop around rainbow!

sovtek

Originally posted by Ripwave
If they drop the price 10c, then every pint they sell on their busy nights represents a loss of 10c in revenue. If they can't make that lost revenue up by increased business, who in their right mind would drop their prices in the first place?

If they drop the price 10c then that many more people would drink there. Therefore making up the price difference. As well when they sell more it costs them less as breweries give incentives for increased sales of their product.

You may have noticed that we had a bit of a recession last year - the job market is depressed, and disposable income generally was down. We also didn't have a World Cup during the summer. It's not really surprising that sales were down.

You may have noticed that pubs are one thing that are known to be relatively safe from recessions, as well as the recession started two years ago.
That being said, I'm sure it did have some effect...but seeing the opinions of people across the board I beleive that people aren't going out as much because of the price of drink.

NeRb666

Originally posted by Ripwave
I'm not aware of any individual or company that owns say 10 pubs in Dublin, even though there are hundreds of pubs in Dublin.

Capital Bars own the following:


Cafe en Seine, Dawson Street, Dublin 2.
Break For The Border, Lower Stephen Street, Dublin 2.
Zanzibar, Lower Ormond Quay, Dublin 2.
Bobs Bar, East Essex St. Dublin 2.
Fireworks Nightclub, Tara Street, Dublin 2.
Coyote Nightclub, Dolier Street, Dublin 2.
Savannah cafe Bar / Club, Lower Rathmines Road, Dublin 6.
The George, Soth Great Georges Street, Dublin 2.
Sosume Bar, South Great Georges Street, Dublin 2.

OK so it's only 9, but I think it's safe to say they are making quite a lot of money off the fools who freqeunt them.

Ripwave

Originally posted by NeRb666
Capital Bars own the following:


Cafe en Seine, Dawson Street, Dublin 2.
Break For The Border, Lower Stephen Street, Dublin 2.
Zanzibar, Lower Ormond Quay, Dublin 2.
Bobs Bar, East Essex St. Dublin 2.
Fireworks Nightclub, Tara Street, Dublin 2.
Coyote Nightclub, Dolier Street, Dublin 2.
Savannah cafe Bar / Club, Lower Rathmines Road, Dublin 6.
The George, Soth Great Georges Street, Dublin 2.
Sosume Bar, South Great Georges Street, Dublin 2.

OK so it's only 9, but I think it's safe to say they are making quite a lot of money off the fools who freqeunt them.

No question about that, but those 9 bars probably represent only a small percentage of all the total pub business in Dublin. Which backs up my contention that the business is not controlled by a small group of people - there are lots of people, families and companies in the pub business in Dublin. It's unlikely that simpley allowing more people into the business will make much difference to the level of prices, because it's not simpley a lack of competition that is responsible for high prices.

sceptre

Originally posted by Ripwave
It's unlikely that simpley allowing more people into the business will make much difference to the level of prices, because it's not simpley a lack of competition that is responsible for high prices.

I tend to agree. I'd substitute "competitors" for "competition" but it's largely a semantic difference (presence of competitors doesn't ensure competition when all sellers act like (as opposed to as) a cartel). The real issue is the Irish insensitivity to price. People won't cross the road to buy something cheaper. People certainly won't mention it if they do because people might somehow get the notion that they can't /afford/ to be ripped off (the ultimate catch22 of the person who's both vain and dumb) and that would be terrible:rolleyes:. I'll happily support deregulation for the desirability of deregulation for its own sake but I'm not under any illusions that it'll solve the problem of people just being plain stupid.

Eurorunner

originally posted by stargazer: Not that many shop these days are willing to offer you something for less than the price THEY have determined.

But thats exactly the point. If we tell them to shove it where the sun dont shine, i think you would see a revision of pricing policy.

originally posted by stargazer: but there is a legal cartel in place in the form of the lisensing of premises. Straight away you're talking about a distorted market.

I dont agree. All pubs dont price their product at the same rate. But how many of us will decide to frequent one pub over another cos of price? Not enough of us imo..

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

Ripwave

Originally posted by sceptre
I tend to agree. I'd substitute "competitors" for "competition" but it's largely a semantic difference (presence of competitors doesn't ensure competition when all sellers act like (as opposed to as) a cartel).

But there's no evidence that they are acting as a cartel. That would imply that they are acting in concert to keep prices up. They're not - they're keeping prices up because if any one of them cuts their prices, they'll just lose money - the theory says that their turnover will increase enough to make up the loss "per pint", but in practice, turnover won't increase sufficiently to make up the loss. So there's no logical reason why a publican should cut their prices.

This is not the behaviour of a cartel, where sellers collude to keep prices artifically high. It's quite the opposite - "free market capitalism" at it's best, with each seller charging whatever he or she thinks the market will bear, and acting in their own best interests.

We both agree that "The real issue is the Irish insensitivity to price". We still disagree about the desirability of deregulation (at least until we have a constitutional referendum that closes off any question of compensation :-)

star gazer

originally posted by eurorunner
I dont agree. All pubs dont price their product at the same rate. But how many of us will decide to frequent one pub over another cos of price? Not enough of us imo..

Rip-off ireland would be a much easier case to fight if a person's choice in product was solely on the basis of price. Price is part of a basket of factors that affect a persons decision to buy or not. With a pub, if a certain crowd hang out there and you want to hang out with them then you go to that pub. Changing pubs can be a big ordeal for certain crowds and they become price insensitive. As long as a certain pub keeps a perception of being cool then people will pay the price. The pricing strategy of most marketing books is to squeeze the maximum price out of customers, the the reasonable price. With the limited supply of pub lisenses, a pub has limited competition anyway. Perhaps not enough people are price sensitive, but there is a benefit to stability and familiarity with services and products. Change can be an ordeal and so we don't haggle over price, but the crucial point is that when we do start to work at finding the cheapest price, a realisation comes that shopping around isn't going to necessarily get you a reasonable price.
There is a competition Authority, but it appears to be just for public perception only.

ixoy

Good point stargazer. Take an example of this that I can relate to - gay pubs. There's only a few in Dublin, so you don't really HAVE any choice. You can't really just cross the road in the same way. As a result they rip you off without shame! :mad:

Capt'n Midnight

I think the phrase is "Value for Money" not just Cheap.
BUT for most prepackaged branded goods it doesn't matter where you buy it.

Also if there is a cartel then shopping around doesn't really help since the churn works both way.. How much cheaper are pubs up north - extent the DART to Newry and trains every 15 mins 24/7 ??

Eurorunner

Originally posted by stargazer: Changing pubs can be a big ordeal for certain crowds and they become price insensitive. As long as a certain pub keeps a perception of being cool then people will pay the price.

Point taken Stargazer. And this is why we are all but slaves to the marketeers. But fúck it, there has to be a cut off point - i would rather not be cool in the knowledge that i'm not being ripped off - but thats my choice.

star gazer

orignally posted by eurorunner
And this is why we are all but slaves to the marketeers. But fúck it, there has to be a cut off point - i would rather not be cool in the knowledge that i'm not being ripped off - but thats my choice.

Don't go that far, getting ripped off will be a burden for consumers indefinitely, whether it is OPEC fixing the price of oil or the ESB enjoying it's monopoly status. The point is that in Ireland this rip-off has gone too far. It is damaging our competitiveness and future prospects economically and as consumers, a basic living is costing us our free time and high stress levels.
Besides actively convincing your friends over time to change your pub may eventually get the message accross to pub owners if you tell them on the way out after your last pint there.