Saddam Captured

SkepticOne · 14-12-2003 12:35pm #1

Finally some good news for the Iraqis. The BBC is reporting that he has been captured.

He was found hiding in a cellar in his ancestral hometown of Tikrit, Iraqi official Ahmed Chalabi said.

NeRb666 · 14-12-2003 12:43pm

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=4516

The battle for the $25m is underway....

DadaKopf · 14-12-2003 1:11pm

Haha, that site's hilarious! Kurdmedia is my only news source from now on!

Rew · 14-12-2003 1:16pm

Well its been confirmed by the US Gov in a news conference...

mike65 · 14-12-2003 1:24pm

Listening to the press conference now, he gave up without a fight having been dug out of a foxhole in his home town, Blair has already said he should be tried in Iraq by Iraqis while the US has said he should tried in an "international" court. Interesting to see what happens and if the ppl of Iraq are allowed decide his fate...he looks a bit run down!

Mike.

DadaKopf · 14-12-2003 1:26pm

Yeah, very dramatic news. They say he transformed into a giant spider. A spider with a big beard. A rich spider with a beard, and a taxi.

Incredible how months of isolation can do that to a man. Unless this was his secret power all along.

I can't say how it's going to improve the situation much.

SkepticOne · 14-12-2003 1:26pm

From that same news conference, they've just shown a video of the tiny 6x8 foot hole down which Saddam was hiding and also video of the man himself with a heavy beard.

daveirl · 14-12-2003 1:28pm

This post has been deleted.

SkepticOne · 14-12-2003 1:37pm

Originally posted by DadaKopf
I can't say how it's going to improve the situation much.

The attacks on US troops will probably continue as many of these weren't Saddam loyalists in the first place but foreign fanatics.

However, for many of those celebrating on the streets of Baghdad, the situation has already improved with the capturing of the hated tyrent.

Éomer of Rohan · 14-12-2003 1:43pm

I imagine that the terrorist-in-chief sitting in the White House will make some suitably big speech lauding the victory of the US and the justice served because they have captured one man. With additional grammar and syntax discrepencies free of charge.

Yay, they captured Saddam. What are the bets that he doesn't get the Milosevic treatment?

mike65 · 14-12-2003 1:45pm

Eomer that was sooooo predictable!

They've been doing DNA tests on him just to make sure....

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan · 14-12-2003 1:53pm

Seriously though, I am sitting watching the press conference - it is ridiculous; it seems to say that his capture justifies the entire campaign - how so? Several thousand Iraqis are still dead, the infrastructure of the country still not repaired.

And impartial press my f******g ass. Listen to the cheering!

They removed him from power - THAT would have been the justification of the campaign had the real goal been to protect his people. It wasn't - they need the symbolism of his capture to overcome the intelligence of people in the West who disagreed with the invasion, in a pictorial version of the jingoism which has not stopped since the accession of Bush to power.

We have already discussed that the capture will change nothing - those currently in Iraq who wish to oust the coalition forces are more than likely not Saddam loyalists - see Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion for comparison. The capture of Saddam may actually buoy any Al-Quaida (and other) terrorist cells (and their supporters amongst the populace) operating in Iraq - they hated Saddam too, and with him out of the way, if they realised their goals of removing the USA, then there would be a power vacuum into which they could step.

DadaKopf · 14-12-2003 1:53pm

The attacks on US troops will probably continue as many of these weren't Saddam loyalists in the first place but foreign fanatics.

However, for many of those celebrating on the streets of Baghdad, the situation has already improved with the capturing of the hated tyrent.

Psychologically, Iraqis have some "closure". Although I don't think they're too stoked about Ahmed "The Thief of Baghdad" Chalabi assuming a premier position in the new Iraqi government.

I don't see how the situation for the average Iraqi celebrating on the streets or sitting in their shops and houses protecting them from looters has improved with Saddam's capture.

The country is awash with guns, there's no national security force, the country is perceived by most as being occupied by an invading force, the national infrastructure is nearly non-existent, Iraqis don't fully understand democracy and when the Iraqi economy is written again, the money is going to flow out to America.

With these massive obstacles to the process of building a legitimate, secure state apparatus, I'm very pessimistic that things are likely to improve for a long time.

A little psychological relief is nothing compared to the deeply structural crisis Iraq and its population is enduring.

And then there's Saddam's army of giant spiders....

bonkey · 14-12-2003 1:58pm

Originally posted by mike65
They've been doing DNA tests on him just to make sure....

Thats the one bit of the story that really piqued my curiosity...I wasn't aware that DNA tests could be carried out that swiftly. And what DNA are the comparing it to?

(Having said that, the chance of them getting the ID wrong is pretty slim, IMHO, but no doubt we'll hear stories for years about a conspiracy theory where this isn't Saddam.)

What amuses me slightly is that the US - those bastions of support for the ICC - apparently want an international court. I'm wondering if this is internationalism in the same way that the Coalition of the Willing is (i.e. run by the US), or in the way that (say) the UN is...

What worries me is that if Saddam was hiding in this little underground bunker/cell, its highly unlikely that he was masterminding all of this resistance - which was quite often suggested - which would mean that his capture is less likely to dramatically improve the current situation in terms of violent "resistance". I'd love to be wrong on that though....

jc

Johnmb · 14-12-2003 2:10pm

Originally posted by bonkey
What amuses me slightly is that the US - those bastions of support for the ICC - apparently want an international court. I'm wondering if this is internationalism in the same way that the Coalition of the Willing is (i.e. run by the US), or in the way that (say) the UN is...

I'd say they are just playing lip service. They have no intention of setting up an independent court to investigate and prosecute. For all the stuff he did, the only thing such a court would really be interested in is the gassing of the Kurds, and there is no way the US would want that investigated too rigerously. They will either set up a show trial run by themselves, or run by the puppet government in Iraq.

demanufactured · 14-12-2003 2:14pm

he looks like chalres manson lol

irishgeo · 14-12-2003 2:17pm

Surely he knows where these big bad weapons of mass destruction are hidden.

ll bet he will be able to say "its the second sand dune on the right after Baghdad.

Bush wins the next election, just when the polls were going agaist him.

Shame the cant find Osama Bin Laden a real danger to the world i think.

DadaKopf · 14-12-2003 2:56pm

Wow! Bremer wasn't lying!

PHB · 14-12-2003 3:04pm

Its good fo the americans to put him in the international court.

When he gets trialed for all the war crimes, more and more people will become aware for what he did, and it will provide the public with another "justified" reason for invading Iraq, and thus take the pressure off the WMD search.

Johnmb · 14-12-2003 3:07pm

Originally posted by PHB
Its good fo the americans to put him in the international court.

When he gets trialed for all the war crimes, more and more people will become aware for what he did, and it will provide the public with another "justified" reason for invading Iraq, and thus take the pressure off the WMD search.

The problem for the US is that an internation court won't just investigate Sadam's role in the crime, they will investigate the crimes themselves, and there are a number of high ranking Americans who were involved in that too, hence the US will keep a tight reign on whatever show court they do set up.

SkepticOne · 14-12-2003 3:09pm

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
And impartial press my f******g ass. Listen to the cheering!

Hardly surprising that some Iraqi journos would cheer when the image of their hated oppressor appeared on the screen. Concern about lack of impartiality on such an occasion seems out of place under such circumstances.

bus77 · 14-12-2003 3:17pm

Where they will hold the the trial?
Some are saying this will open a can of worms for the US when it goes to trial. Personally I dont think they give a ****.
If it's handeld in a Iraqi court he will be executed, the US would prefer if it went like that.

adnans · 14-12-2003 3:20pm

adnans

Johnmb · 14-12-2003 3:26pm

Originally posted by bus77
Where they will hold the the trial?
Some are saying this will open a can of worms for the US when it goes to trial. Personally I dont think they give a ****.
If it's handeld in a Iraqi court he will be executed, the US would prefer if it went like that.

Which might not be the best thing for Iraq. Hopefully, he will face trial under a free Iraqi regime (not the current puppet government), and hopefully they will not execute him. Life in prison, or even exile (common for such people) would be best. While the US likes to ignore it, the fact remains that a lot of the Sunni population genuinely did support him, and if he is treated too badly, they may turn against the government. Look at what happened here after 1916, the leaders had very little support, until the aftermath. The last thing Iraq needs is for Saddam to be made a martyr. If they treat him well, and show mercy, it may help heal the wounds. Revenge is not a good thing under the circumstances.

Sparks · 14-12-2003 3:30pm

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Hardly surprising that some Iraqi journos would cheer when the image of their hated oppressor appeared on the screen. Concern about lack of impartiality on such an occasion seems out of place under such circumstances.

Tell that to Walter Cronkite just after he'd announced JFK's assassination. A journalist's job is to be impartial, especially under such circumstances. You're there to report, not give an op-ed piece.

I was amused, though, by the reaction to the one single real question asked - in rather broken english - by an arabic journalist : "Could he really have run the guerilla operation from that hole in the ground?".
Never seen a four-star fall back so fast

Cork · 14-12-2003 3:30pm

Originally posted by Johnmb
They will either set up a show trial run by themselves, or run by the puppet government in Iraq.

I think that the people of Iraq who suffered under Saddam - now know that Saddam will never again be in a position of power in their country.

This will be a big relief to them. I think this guys capture has to be welcomed.

I think that the US should not have broadcast the medical examination but the clean shaven pictures will give the Iraqi people some degree of assurance.

There is still a job of work to be done to rebuild and reconcile Iraq.

I hope the US - will not forget that the lot of the Iraqi people needs improvement.

Saddam deserves due process. But - Attention should also focus on setting up credable and accountable administration in Iraq to work for it's people.

ReefBreak · 14-12-2003 3:38pm

A certain section of the Anti-War crowd must be well disappointed today - their favourite socialist, tyrannical psychopath is finally caught.

SkepticOne · 14-12-2003 3:42pm

Originally posted by Johnmb
Life in prison, or even exile (common for such people) would be best. While the US likes to ignore it, the fact remains that a lot of the Sunni population genuinely did support him, and if he is treated too badly, they may turn against the government. Look at what happened here after 1916, the leaders had very little support, until the aftermath. The last thing Iraq needs is for Saddam to be made a martyr. If they treat him well, and show mercy, it may help heal the wounds. Revenge is not a good thing under the circumstances.

A very different situation to the 1916 leaders. None of the 1916 leaders were brutal dictators that rulled with an iron fist for 25 years for a start. I don't believe there was singing and dancing in the streets when the 1916 leaders were captured.

Certainly he could not be tried by the Iraqis right now. The institutions aren't in place to do this. However, I doubt if exile will be considered as an option regardless of who tries him.

While Saddam did have support from some within the Sunni community, it will be interesting to see how much of this remains now that he is no longer in a position to help his supporters.

Cork · 14-12-2003 3:45pm

Originally posted by Johnmb
Which might not be the best thing for Iraq. Hopefully, he will face trial under a free Iraqi regime (not the current puppet government), and hopefully they will not execute him. Life in prison, or even exile (common for such people) would be best. .

I hope the guy faces trial. I really don't see exile as much of a sanction.

Pat Rabbitt seemed to mention this idea but Connor Lenihan seemed to rule it out:

[QUOTE"There can be no soft option for Saddam Hussein, offering him asylum sends out a message to other dictators that they can break international law in the knowledge that when the time comes they too can seek asylum."

"If we were to act on the recommendation of the Labour leader Ireland would also run the risk of being completely isolated internationally. We cannot be seen to offer Saddam a get out of jail card." [/QUOTE]

DadaKopf · 14-12-2003 3:48pm

Originally posted by adnans

adnans

OUTRAGEOUS!

Johnmb · 14-12-2003 3:49pm

A very different situation to the 1916 leaders. None of the 1916 leaders were brutal dictators that rulled with an iron fist for 25 years for a start. I don't believe there was singing and dancing in the streets when the 1916 leaders were captured.
No, but they were heckled, spat at, totally disowned by a very pissed off public. It wasn't until the British executed them in such a harsh manner that the general public turned against the British and towards the cause of the 1916 leaders.

Certainly he could not be tried by the Iraqis right now. The institutions aren't in place to do this. However, I doubt if exile will be considered as an option regardless of who tries him.

While Saddam did have support from some within the Sunni community, it will be interesting to see how much of this remains now that he is no longer in a position to help his supporters.
History is a big factor. He single handedly brought Iraq into the 20th century, by setting up hospitals, road networks, electricity, universities, etc. His supporters, and those who are fairly indifferent, make up a large minority. The last thing Iraq needs is for these people to feel he was treated too harshly. Execution is not the way to go. I reckon life in prison, however, if exile is best for peace that should be done.

Saddam Captured

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